Are any of you onto this breaking story?

The Times of London is generally accepted as a credible
source:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...le3137695.ece?

For a video, see this less credible source:
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12166

For more info, see:
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff01072008.html

it suggests that living in one
of the 4 or 5 largest U.S. cities is a bit less safe than
one might suppose.

Metalworking content: Nuke building

Gunner

--


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

The gist of the story is that most likely, such "leaks" were actually
authorized by high levels.

i

Gunner Asch wrote:
Are any of you onto this breaking story?

The Times of London is generally accepted as a credible
source:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...le3137695.ece?


Not really much new there. Also, it has come up many times that
incredibly highly classified info on modern bomb design has gotten
published in unclassifed journals by mistake. In at least one case,
DOE or FBI agents had to go around to a bunch of university and research
institute libraries and remove a particular issue of some physics
journal that had an article on centrifuge design, I think it was.
This has been going on for probably 40 years, now, and anyone who has
the resources to deeply scrutinize the Physics library at a major
university can probably learn nearly everything that is known by a major
nuclear weapons-possesing nation.

I work in the radiochemistry department at a major university, and I've
come across a few issues of journals that had stuff I couldn't BELIEVE
was totally unclassified, like one that was a field guide for
identifying US warheads after an accident. It had photos and complete
physics data on all the deployed US warheads! That wouldn't really help
you to build one, but could be REAL useful to a terrorist wanting to be
sure he stole the right container from the storerom.

Jon

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:13:34 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Are any of you onto this breaking story?

The Times of London is generally accepted as a credible
source:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...le3137695.ece?

For a video, see this less credible source:
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12166

For more info, see:
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff01072008.html

it suggests that living in one
of the 4 or 5 largest U.S. cities is a bit less safe than
one might suppose.

Metalworking content: Nuke building

Gunner
====================
While if true (as it appears to be) this is indeed a major
concern, however the more immediate, and therefore more dangerous
situation, is the administration's attempt to generate a "Son of
Tonkin" or "Tonkin II" situation and panic congress into passing
a resolution to justify a pre-emptive war with Iran.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080108/...7kZf3rH2Cs0NUE
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...tory?track=rss

This became necessary when our "spooks" leaked the NIE indicating
that Iran had stopped nuclear military work shortly after the end
of the Iran/Iraq war, because it became evident that the "raw"
intelligence data was again being "cherry-picked," and that the
intelligence services were again being setup to be the fall-guy.
For actual NIE text see
http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20071203_release.pdf

Other news that may be impacting events in the area include
http://www2.irna.ir/en/news/view/men...6820152845.htm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20080104/cm_csm/ylynch_1

On the other hand this claim of massive espionage may be another
diversionary "Reichstag fire" to panic the people and
additionally slander the functionaries/bureaucrats in the
permanent government as "pay-back" for leaking the NIE, and
stopping a war they had their hearts set on, but which would have
been [and will be] a disaster for the people and government of
the United States [It won't do much for the Iranians either…]


-- Change of topic here --

Politically I am somewhat to the right of Attila the Hun, but the
IMT [International Military Tribunal / Nuremberg] is unequivocal
on the following points.
http://www.lib.uconn.edu/online/rese...ound/index.htm

snip
On 8 August 1945, the charter of the International Military
Tribunal declared that aggressive war was an international crime
and an International Military Tribunal was established in
Nuremberg, Germany to try the remaining major German leaders for
their actions both before and during World War II. Nuremberg was
the city where Hitler had proclaimed his racial laws in 1935.
Judges from the United States, Great Britain, France, and the
Soviet Union, as well as four alternates were assigned the
jurisdiction to try high ranking Nazis deemed personally
responsible for the specific charges. This would be the first
time that an international court would hold a government
responsible for its treatment of both its own citizens and
citizens of other countries during war time.

"The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so
calculated, so malignant and so devastating that civilization
cannot tolerate their being ignored because it cannot survive
their being repeated." [Justice Robert Jackson, opening
statement People vs. Nazism]

The specific charges that were brought against twenty-three
individuals included crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes
against humanity. ==Crimes against peace were defined as the
planning, preparation, initiation, and waging of a war of
aggression.== [emphasis added] War crimes were defined as the
violations of the laws or customs of war including the murder,
ill treatment and deportation to slave labor of civilian
populations and the murder and ill treatment of prisoners of war.
Crimes against humanity were defined as the murder,
extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane
treatment of civilians before and during the war. This also
included the persecution of individuals on political, racial or
religious grounds.
snip
----------

In addition, by its documented actions, the Bush administration
is in direct and flagrant violation of several articles of the UN
charter/treaty, which has the force of law, and "trumps" the US
Constitution [which is one of the main danger of treaties].
http://www.cdi.org/news/law/preemptive-war.cfm

Notes for Cliff:

It is both useless and counter-productive to demonize
Bush/Chaney. By themselves they could do little or nothing. The
problem is the system/organization that allows, indeed promotes,
these sorts of activities, and introduces "positive feed-back"
where "reality" is made to conform to the biases,
pre-conceptions, and assumptions of the leaders. This is
dangerous in business and catastrophic in government, as sooner
or later "reality" always wins.

The combination of a "duty to act" with the "power to act"
defines accountability. By their failure to exercise the
fundamental Constitutional "power of the purse," and their
continual evasion of the Congressional responsibility to "Declare
War" [Artice I section 8] Reid/Pelosi and the Democrats are as
guilty as Bush/Chaney and the Republicans, under the legal
doctrine of "aiding and abetting."

To his credit John McCain introduced twin resolutions that would
have forced Congress to take a firm position either for or
against war with Iraq, but was shouted down by the gas-bags,
no-loads and dick-weeds. Unfortunately, he has not followed
through on his initial skepticism.

Gunner Asch wrote:
Are any of you onto this breaking story?

The Times of London is generally accepted as a credible
source:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...le3137695.ece?

For a video, see this less credible source:
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12166

For more info, see:
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff01072008.html

it suggests that living in one
of the 4 or 5 largest U.S. cities is a bit less safe than
one might suppose.

Metalworking content: Nuke building

Without knowing what "Deadly Nuclear Secrets"
are, it's impossible to know. There's no magic
to building a crude nuclear device. I read
somewhere that every country that has tried
to develop a nuclear weapon succeeded on the
first attempt. The only real leverage is through
control of weapons-grade material and political/
military pressure.

What airhead or terrorist allowed or put that in. Might be a plant.
There are mistakes, but that kind of stuff is normally protected better.

Weird stuff happens, like when a certain R&D center published the keypad
concept for not only home phones but the extra set for trunk and stations...

That mistake into a company magazine - went to university libraries around
the country and soon the birth of the black and blue boxes that dialed
free long distance calls.

In the late 60's and early 70's those were a rave - and pay phones on college
campuses were taken out as they were simple targets. Now cell phones make it
easy enough to call away.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Jon Elson wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:
Are any of you onto this breaking story?

The Times of London is generally accepted as a credible
source:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...le3137695.ece?



Not really much new there. Also, it has come up many times that
incredibly highly classified info on modern bomb design has gotten
published in unclassifed journals by mistake. In at least one case,
DOE or FBI agents had to go around to a bunch of university and research
institute libraries and remove a particular issue of some physics
journal that had an article on centrifuge design, I think it was.
This has been going on for probably 40 years, now, and anyone who has
the resources to deeply scrutinize the Physics library at a major
university can probably learn nearly everything that is known by a major
nuclear weapons-possesing nation.

I work in the radiochemistry department at a major university, and I've
come across a few issues of journals that had stuff I couldn't BELIEVE
was totally unclassified, like one that was a field guide for
identifying US warheads after an accident. It had photos and complete
physics data on all the deployed US warheads! That wouldn't really help
you to build one, but could be REAL useful to a terrorist wanting to be
sure he stole the right container from the storerom.

Jon

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:28:36 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:
snip
While if true (as it appears to be) this is indeed a major
concern, however the more immediate, and therefore more dangerous
situation, is the administration's attempt to generate a "Son of
Tonkin" or "Tonkin II" situation and panic congress into passing
a resolution to justify a pre-emptive war with Iran.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080108/...7kZf3rH2Cs0NUE
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...tory?track=rss
snip
===============
several people have pointed out that it can be argued that the
WMD fiasco was "Tonkin II" or "Son of Tonkin," and we are
actually working on Tonkin III, sorta like the Rambo series.....

for the youngsters in the group who don't recognize the "Tonkin"
reference click on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Resolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident

follow-up to my own post.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/...LSWGs4hFtvaA8F

I have not been able to locate the entire video for review, but
the bits and pieces I have seen appear similar to the home videos
that "prove" UFOs exist.

The short excerpts I have seen have been low definition, similar
to cell phone videos, choppy, and do not appear to show any US
Navy ships in the background or US Navy equipment in the
foreground as would be expected. Also, Iranian/Revolutionary
Guards markings, flags or insignia are also not seen on the
"attack boats." From the video I have seen, the "attack boats"
could just as easily been drug runner fast boats videoed by the
DEA while avoiding capture, or even some of the idle rich evading
the Coast Guard.

The US Navy now admits the audio was dubbed from a separate
recording and that the entire video as released is a
compilation/composite.

Given the very tense situation (and highly skeptical public), why
are continuous 360 degree high definition video and audio
surveillance recordings, including GPS and radar data not
required on every individual US navel vessel in the area? It
can't be because of cost.

To come back to cell phones for a moment, has anyone heard/seen
of any personal pictures or videos taken of this "attack?"

Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
What airhead or terrorist allowed or put that in. Might be a plant.
There are mistakes, but that kind of stuff is normally protected better.

This was all WAY before 9/11, of course.
Weird stuff happens, like when a certain R&D center published the keypad
concept for not only home phones but the extra set for trunk and
stations...

Bell System Technical Journal, usually totally impenetrable
jargon-filled stuff on statistical modelling of phone system
traffic, but it had a complete and detailed description of STMF
or in-band signalling before the group 7 phone exchanges went
live and moved to out-of-band signalling. Nobody needed the
keypads, a guy I knew specifically used pieces of audio tape
with the right tones on them, and spliced the tape with the
right length to get the right timing. If caught, he carried a
strong magnet to erase the thing. Kind of "Mission Impossible".
There was a blind guy at MIT who could do it by whistling!
That mistake into a company magazine - went to university libraries around
the country and soon the birth of the black and blue boxes that dialed
free long distance calls.

it wasn't a mistake to put the info there, but it was a bit of a
mistake to underestimate the capability of the early teenage
hacker/anarchist crowd.
In the late 60's and early 70's those were a rave - and pay phones on
college
campuses were taken out as they were simple targets. Now cell phones
make it
easy enough to call away.
Did you know you could wire in a switch into the phone wire to
those old pay phones that would disable the "drop coins into
coin box" signal that was sent from the phone exchange when the
called party answered? I actually found one of these on a pay
phone at the university years ago.

Jon

Jim Stewart wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:

Are any of you onto this breaking story?

The Times of London is generally accepted as a credible
source:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...le3137695.ece?


For a video, see this less credible source:
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12166

For more info, see:
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff01072008.html

it suggests that living in one
of the 4 or 5 largest U.S. cities is a bit less safe than
one might suppose.

Metalworking content: Nuke building


Without knowing what "Deadly Nuclear Secrets"
are, it's impossible to know. There's no magic
to building a crude nuclear device. I read
somewhere that every country that has tried
to develop a nuclear weapon succeeded on the
first attempt. The only real leverage is through
control of weapons-grade material and political/
military pressure.

Well, the North Koreans seem to have had pretty poor success.
Rough guesstimates are that the Plutonium only boosted the yield
of the device by 5 - 10%, in other words the chamical high
explosive was 90 - 95% of the total explosion. That's
remarkably poor. Something apparently went REALLY wrong with
their bomb. Probably the symmetric compression of the plutonium
was bad, or the neutron trigger had poor timing.

This is assuming it was a basic device using relatively
unsophisticated explosives, like our first "Fat Man" devices.
In other words, a HELL of a lot of explosive for a tiny ball of
Pu. If they had something really sophisticated like our modern
missile warheads which use much less explosive to get the same
compression/implosion, then maybe it was a very sophisticated
low-yield, light-weight device. Since it took us 30 years with
practically unlimited resources and thousands of tests to get it
right, Occam's razor says "no way".


Jon

Actually the detail of not the normal tones was ok it was the special
column. Kinda like my special rotary in the shop. 1-2..9-0-A...D.
That is a real old relic being a rotary. The magazine was recalled
but not all copies returned. Some libraries 'lost' theirs.

Actually companies like Mostek sold the tone generators that matched
normal keypads. Full data sheet and disclosure. Not the specials.
That was a custom chip. the normal one could be in experimental phones
or production phones.
Martin


Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Jon Elson wrote:
Martin H. Eastburn wrote:
What airhead or terrorist allowed or put that in. Might be a plant.
There are mistakes, but that kind of stuff is normally protected better.

This was all WAY before 9/11, of course.
Weird stuff happens, like when a certain R&D center published the keypad
concept for not only home phones but the extra set for trunk and
stations...

Bell System Technical Journal, usually totally impenetrable
jargon-filled stuff on statistical modelling of phone system traffic,
but it had a complete and detailed description of STMF or in-band
signalling before the group 7 phone exchanges went live and moved to
out-of-band signalling. Nobody needed the keypads, a guy I knew
specifically used pieces of audio tape with the right tones on them, and
spliced the tape with the right length to get the right timing. If
caught, he carried a strong magnet to erase the thing. Kind of "Mission
Impossible".
There was a blind guy at MIT who could do it by whistling!
That mistake into a company magazine - went to university libraries
around
the country and soon the birth of the black and blue boxes that dialed
free long distance calls.

it wasn't a mistake to put the info there, but it was a bit of a mistake
to underestimate the capability of the early teenage hacker/anarchist
crowd.
In the late 60's and early 70's those were a rave - and pay phones on
college
campuses were taken out as they were simple targets. Now cell phones
make it
easy enough to call away.
Did you know you could wire in a switch into the phone wire to those old
pay phones that would disable the "drop coins into coin box" signal that
was sent from the phone exchange when the called party answered? I
actually found one of these on a pay phone at the university years ago.

Jon

On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:08:58 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:


Did you know you could wire in a switch into the phone wire to
those old pay phones that would disable the "drop coins into
coin box" signal that was sent from the phone exchange when the
called party answered? I actually found one of these on a pay
phone at the university years ago.

There was a low-tech way to do much the same on the old style black
pay phones. A small hole drilled in the right spot on the front of the
phone allowed one to manipulate the coin return mechanism with a paper
clip before the coins were sent to the box. The old phones were being
phased out in the early 70s, but quite a few of those left on college
campuses around Boston had that "feature."

--
Ned Simmons

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:28:36 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:
snip
While if true (as it appears to be) this is indeed a major
concern, however the more immediate, and therefore more dangerous
situation, is the administration's attempt to generate a "Son of
Tonkin" or "Tonkin II" situation and panic congress into passing
a resolution to justify a pre-emptive war with Iran.
snip
===========
And this just in ..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7182637.stm

The admission by the US Navy that Iranian speedboats might not
have been the source of an apparent threat to attack American
ships in the Gulf is a significant move that raises new fears
about the chances of unintended clashes in the region.
snip
The video released by the US implied that the warning was part of
a series of transmissions to the ships from the Iranian craft.

It turns out that the warning was added onto the video. It was a
radio recording made separately.
snip
------------------------
It remains to be determined if this was a CIA or a MOSSAD
operation.

Oil hits 100$/bbl, gold hits 900$/oz, governmental debt at all
levels and the trade deficit continues to rapidly mount, and
California [as the first domino] is on the verge of bankruptcy.

The preferred establishment solution? --- start a(nother) war.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:16:45 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:
snip
and
California [as the first domino] is on the verge of bankruptcy.
=========
WOW -- that was fast --

Several people emailed me to ask about the California budget
crisis.

click on
http://www.sacbee.com/dyn/comments/s...&tie_to=626364

For people that live in other states [like me -- Kansas] remember
that California is unique only that it is *FIRST*.

The available information/data indicates that *ALL* [US] states
and most of the major municipalities, have evaded the "no
deficit" provisions of their constitutions/charters, and have
accumulated horrendous unfunded pension liabilities, as well as
massive "authority" or quasi independent institutional [such as
university] debts for which they are responsible as guarantors.

California is of particular concern as it is the home of "high
tech" (as in silicone valley), and by GSP [gross state product]
is the 6th or 7th largest economy in the world.

If we have to rerun years because of the writers' strike, lets
chose one other than 1929... What a way to start 2008...

F. George McDuffee wrote:

Oil hits 100$/bbl, gold hits 900$/oz, governmental debt at all
levels and the trade deficit continues to rapidly mount, and
California [as the first domino] is on the verge of bankruptcy.

Got a cite that California is "on the verge
of bankruptcy"?

Jim Stewart wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote:

Oil hits 100$/bbl, gold hits 900$/oz, governmental debt at all
levels and the trade deficit continues to rapidly mount, and
California [as the first domino] is on the verge of bankruptcy.


Got a cite that California is "on the verge
of bankruptcy"?

Try the evening news..

Arnold is going to release 22,000 inmates early so he can fire
4000 guards.

Cost cutting.

Or maybe re-stocking the pond?

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:50:59 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Got a cite that California is "on the verge
of bankruptcy"?
========
Our postings crossed. See my posting on this.

Several people also emailed me about this.

My only "error" was using the qualifier "verge," as it now clear
the State of California *IS* bankrupt, to the extent they are
shutting down a large portion of their prison system to "save"
money. FWIW -- it appears the per capita cost to incarcerate in
individual in California is about twice [c.40k$/yr] what the
other states such as Texas and Florida report [c.20k$/yr],
although this may be due to a difference in accounting.
California's prison systems are under Federal court supervision.

As indicated, the critical factor is that California is not
unique, it is only first.

Now if we can only get all the guns registered......

cavelamb himself wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote:

Oil hits 100$/bbl, gold hits 900$/oz, governmental debt at all
levels and the trade deficit continues to rapidly mount, and
California [as the first domino] is on the verge of bankruptcy.


Got a cite that California is "on the verge
of bankruptcy"?

Try the evening news..

Arnold is going to release 22,000 inmates early so he can fire
4000 guards.

Not the same.

Again, do you have a cite that "California
is on the verge of bankruptcy"?

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:50:59 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Got a cite that California is "on the verge
of bankruptcy"?
========
Our postings crossed. See my posting on this.

Several people also emailed me about this.

My only "error" was using the qualifier "verge," as it now clear
the State of California *IS* bankrupt, to the extent they are
shutting down a large portion of their prison system to "save"
money. FWIW -- it appears the per capita cost to incarcerate in
individual in California is about twice [c.40k$/yr] what the
other states such as Texas and Florida report [c.20k$/yr],
although this may be due to a difference in accounting.
California's prison systems are under Federal court supervision.

The California budget issue is election year
political posturing. Arnold is greasing things
up so he can stick the state employees' unions.

Bankruptcy has nothing to do with the costs
of incarcerating prisoners. It has to do
with paying off your debts at pennies on
the dollar. Hasn't happened, won't happen.

But hey, I don't mind your rhetoric, as long
as I know it's rhetoric.

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:16:45 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

snip
The video released by the US implied that the warning was part of
a series of transmissions to the ships from the Iranian craft.

It turns out that the warning was added onto the video. It was a
radio recording made separately.
snip


Yes and? Im sure most video cameras do not come equipped with radio
receivers. Patching a tape from the comm shack onto the video makes
sense.

CIA? Mossad?

How about dumb****s from Iran on those speed boats?

Sometimes a cigar is simply a cigar.

Gunner

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:13:51 -0600, cavelamb himself
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote:

Oil hits 100$/bbl, gold hits 900$/oz, governmental debt at all
levels and the trade deficit continues to rapidly mount, and
California [as the first domino] is on the verge of bankruptcy.


Got a cite that California is "on the verge
of bankruptcy"?

Try the evening news..

Arnold is going to release 22,000 inmates early so he can fire
4000 guards.

Cost cutting.

Or maybe re-stocking the pond?


Cost cutting is done all the time (unfortunatlly not in very large
amounts though)

This hardly means Cali is on the verge of Bankruptcy

When revenues slow down, one has to back off on their extravagant life
style. Eat at Micky Ds rather than Haute Cusine.

Doesnt mean you are ready to auction off the office furniture.

Gunner


Gunner

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:37:04 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


My only "error" was using the qualifier "verge," as it now clear
the State of California *IS* bankrupt, to the extent they are
shutting down a large portion of their prison system to "save"
money. FWIW -- it appears the per capita cost to incarcerate in
individual in California is about twice [c.40k$/yr] what the
other states such as Texas and Florida report [c.20k$/yr],
although this may be due to a difference in accounting.
California's prison systems are under Federal court supervision.


Its largely the high wages and benis paid to the Corrections officers

They make an incredible amount of money here in California.
****ing union.


Gunner

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:41:49 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
snip
This hardly means Cali is on the verge of Bankruptcy

When revenues slow down, one has to back off on their extravagant life
style. Eat at Micky Ds rather than Haute Cusine.
snip
=========
Let us hope that this is the case. As I indicated before
California is not unique, just first, and thus she is the "canary
in the coal mine" for the rest of the country.

I would feel a lot better if this were a one-time situation
rather than a chronic condition, where the constitutional
prohibitions on debt and deficits have been systematically
evaded. Note that this applies to all US states and most US
municipalities, not just California. For some insight click on
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ajdL7eUHeUro

More information continues to surface about governmental bond
downgrades, even at the national level.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/fcc631cc-bfe...nclick_check=1
"The US is at risk of losing its top-notch triple-A credit rating
within a decade unless it takes radical action to curb soaring
healthcare and social security spending, Moody's, the credit
rating agency, said yesterday.

The warning over the future of the triple-A rating - granted to
US government debt since it was first assessed in 1917 - reflects
growing concerns over the country's ability to retain its
financial and economic supremacy."
--------------------
Given the universal tendency for governments world-wide to borrow
to the point of collapse, is there some sort of economic or
social "entropy" at work? Even unequivocal constitutional
prohibitions on deficits and debt seem to have little to no
effect. Does anyone have some suggestions, or is governmental
debt something like aging, i.e. an inevitable part of life?

other items of interest include
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/24/bu...gewanted=print
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...0,227997.story
http://financialservices.law360.com/...x%3fId%3d43793

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:37:30 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:41:49 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
snip
This hardly means Cali is on the verge of Bankruptcy

When revenues slow down, one has to back off on their extravagant life
style. Eat at Micky Ds rather than Haute Cusine.
snip
=========
Let us hope that this is the case. As I indicated before
California is not unique, just first, and thus she is the "canary
in the coal mine" for the rest of the country.

I would feel a lot better if this were a one-time situation
rather than a chronic condition, where the constitutional
prohibitions on debt and deficits have been systematically
evaded. Note that this applies to all US states and most US
municipalities, not just California. For some insight click on
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ajdL7eUHeUro


As long as the Left continues to teach and preach Entitlements, we are
never going to get the People to stop trying or demanding a Government
teat to suck on.

The only thing Government owes any of us, is enumerated in the
Constitution (and various state Constitutions)

Its damned hard to figure out where all the multi trillion dollar
entirlement programs have managed to spring forth from
"promote the general welfare"

There is not going to be a quicn and painless instafix.

Its going to require that several generations of people be forced to
revise their "Its owed to me" world view, and public executions of
corrupt politicians and their lobbyists.

And we start that by gutting the NEA and forcing the survivors to
teach basic personal economics, fiscal restraint, personal
responsiblity and the work ethic.

Teach the little skulls filled with mush that if they dont produce, no
one is going to ride to their rescue, (and in doing so, build their
own beuracratic empire) and they are going to starve to death in a
card board box someplace, unless they manage to find a Private charity
to care for them for life.
And then we execute all the business management teachers who preach
short term profits and leave out the teaching of long term goals and
responsiblity to the worker, the stockholder and the nation.

Gunner


Gunner

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:18:15 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
snip
And then we execute all the business management teachers who preach
short term profits and leave out the teaching of long term goals and
responsiblity to the worker, the stockholder and the nation.
snip
==============
Draconian, but desperate situations demand desperate remedies.
If you don't like the remedy then avoid the situation.

Catching the clap always seems to be more enjoyable (and easier)
than the cure...

History is littered with the corpses of national economies that
borrowed themselves [and their citizens] to ruin. The "war on
drugs" seems to be targeting the wrong addection.

As usual private enterprise is attmepting to help the FRB by
provinding extra capital. See
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...C0A9609582 60

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:48:36 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 13:18:15 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
snip
And then we execute all the business management teachers who preach
short term profits and leave out the teaching of long term goals and
responsiblity to the worker, the stockholder and the nation.
snip
==============
Draconian, but desperate situations demand desperate remedies.
If you don't like the remedy then avoid the situation.

Catching the clap always seems to be more enjoyable (and easier)
than the cure...

History is littered with the corpses of national economies that
borrowed themselves [and their citizens] to ruin. The "war on
drugs" seems to be targeting the wrong addection.


Its also littered with the corpses of national economies that tried to
tax themselves into prosperity.

As usual private enterprise is attmepting to help the FRB by
provinding extra capital. See
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...C0A9609582 60

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:57:41 -0800, Gunner
wrote:
snip
Its also littered with the corpses of national economies that tried to
tax themselves into prosperity.
snip
===============
Indeed there are, but it is important to remember that unless
government spending is reduced by the same amount as the "tax
cut," it is not a tax cut at all but simply "tax shifting."

This can take several forms such as to other people/institutions
in the current time frame (that are generally less able to pay,
and have less political clout), to the future taxpayers through
borrowing, and disguised as different wealth transfer mechanism
such as "inflation" which operationally is a "capital levy" on
everyone stupid enough to hold dollar denominated/based
securities/assets such as cash, bonds, annuities, pensions, etc.

The MBAs may indeed know how to "game the system," but this is a
useless skill as soon as everyone becomes aware the game is
rigged and refuses to play.

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:39:09 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:16:45 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

snip
The video released by the US implied that the warning was part of
a series of transmissions to the ships from the Iranian craft.

It turns out that the warning was added onto the video. It was a
radio recording made separately.
snip


Yes and? Im sure most video cameras do not come equipped with radio
receivers. Patching a tape from the comm shack onto the video makes
sense.
When a video tape is offered as "evidence," particularly as a
"casus belli," common sense suggests that information about any
splicing, over dubbing, enhancement, etc. should also be
included.

More information continues to trickle out-- click on
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080114/...b7p1O65bqs0NUE
For this we are preparing to go to war????

CIA? Mossad?

How about dumb****s from Iran on those speed boats?
I wonder how the US would respond if Iranian navy ships with
known cruise missile capability and 20 mile heavy gun range,
appeared 3.1 miles off our [the US] shores [technically in
international waters], for example just off New York City or Los
Angeles and began taking pictures.

Given the volatility of the region/situation, common sense
indicates a operations order should be issued immediately,
prohibiting all US naval and air units approaching any closer to
Iran's coastline than 20 miles ==unless their mission is to
incite/provoke these types of incidents.==


Sometimes a cigar is simply a cigar.
That's what Larry Craig keeps saying, but it don't look like no
cigar to me....

Gunner

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:39:17 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 01:39:09 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:16:45 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

snip
The video released by the US implied that the warning was part of
a series of transmissions to the ships from the Iranian craft.

It turns out that the warning was added onto the video. It was a
radio recording made separately.
snip


Yes and? Im sure most video cameras do not come equipped with radio
receivers. Patching a tape from the comm shack onto the video makes
sense.
When a video tape is offered as "evidence," particularly as a
"casus belli," common sense suggests that information about any
splicing, over dubbing, enhancement, etc. should also be
included.

More information continues to trickle out-- click on
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080114/...b7p1O65bqs0NUE
For this we are preparing to go to war????

USS Cole......

CIA? Mossad?

How about dumb****s from Iran on those speed boats?
I wonder how the US would respond if Iranian navy ships with
known cruise missile capability and 20 mile heavy gun range,
appeared 3.1 miles off our [the US] shores [technically in
international waters], for example just off New York City or Los
Angeles and began taking pictures.

How wide is the Straits of Hormuz again?


Given the volatility of the region/situation, common sense
indicates a operations order should be issued immediately,
prohibiting all US naval and air units approaching any closer to
Iran's coastline than 20 miles ==unless their mission is to
incite/provoke these types of incidents.==

How wide is the Straits of Hormuz again?


Sometimes a cigar is simply a cigar.
That's what Larry Craig keeps saying, but it don't look like no
cigar to me....

Got that good a look at it? Up close and personal?

Fascinating.

Gunner

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:59:43 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

How wide is the Straits of Hormuz again?
At its narrowest point 50km, or about 30 miles.
see http://i-cias.com/e.o/hormuz.htm

"The strait of Hormuz is about the same (or greater) width as the
Channel between England & France, or the strait at Gibraltar into
the Mediterranean Sea."
see
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...null&offset=12

also see
http://www.pcplanets.com/videoyoutub...CX5RliWI.shtml

Does anyone know how the shipping channels/lanes run, and who is
responsible for maintenance? Quick google indicates "The strait
itself is barely 21 miles (34km) wide. At its narrowest, the
Strait consists of two 1-mile (1.5km)-wide channels for inbound
and outbound tanker traffic, as well as a 2-mile (3km)-wide
buffer zone." at
http://www.defense-update.com/newsca...sis-120407.htm

Note that the straits appear to be rapidly shrinking as the width
shrank about 50km/30 miles to 34km/21 miles in just a few weeks
according to the articles. Remarkable what global warming and a
rising sea level can do....

USS Cole......
USS Vincennes click on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:44:31 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:59:43 -0800, Gunner
wrote:

How wide is the Straits of Hormuz again?
At its narrowest point 50km, or about 30 miles.
see http://i-cias.com/e.o/hormuz.htm

"The strait of Hormuz is about the same (or greater) width as the
Channel between England & France, or the strait at Gibraltar into
the Mediterranean Sea."
see
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...null&offset=12

also see
http://www.pcplanets.com/videoyoutub...CX5RliWI.shtml

Does anyone know how the shipping channels/lanes run, and who is
responsible for maintenance? Quick google indicates "The strait
itself is barely 21 miles (34km) wide. At its narrowest, the
Strait consists of two 1-mile (1.5km)-wide channels for inbound
and outbound tanker traffic, as well as a 2-mile (3km)-wide
buffer zone." at
http://www.defense-update.com/newsca...sis-120407.htm

Note that the straits appear to be rapidly shrinking as the width
shrank about 50km/30 miles to 34km/21 miles in just a few weeks
according to the articles. Remarkable what global warming and a
rising sea level can do....

USS Cole......
USS Vincennes click on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655


Ayup..further proof of what happens when some Iranian nutjob decides
to play chicken with Uncle Sam. Attack profile, multiple warnings.

So sorry. Next time, dont act like an attacking aircraft, no matter
which mad Islamic Fundi imam told you to do so.

And dont act like attacking vessels, in an age when man portable
weapons can come close to sinking a US vessel.

Im rather impressed at the restraint shown by our skippers. A quck
programming and 4 seconds max from a Phalanx battery and there would
have been nothing but an oil slick and spreading blood stain in the
water, remains of all the speed boats.

Sooner or later..when you taunt, and shoot pebbles at the tigers with
a sling shot, they are going to come over the fence and rip off your
face.


Gunner

An abrupt shift here. [sharp left turn???]

If you have high speed internet download and view (c. 1hr15min).

Caution: do not do this just before going to bed!!!

http://iopforum.harvard.edu/mp4/fr20070913noend.mp4

* Bay of Pigs
* Vietnam
* Iraq
* Iran?

[Note: this will *NOT* air on Faux News]

Gunner:
I know you don't yet have good internet access, so send me a
snail mail address and I'll burn you a cd copy.

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:15:23 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, F.
George McDuffee quickly quoth:

An abrupt shift here. [sharp left turn???]

If you have high speed internet download and view (c. 1hr15min).

Caution: do not do this just before going to bed!!!

http://iopforum.harvard.edu/mp4/fr20070913noend.mp4

Do you have an alternative method of getting to download that file? It
won't resolve on my box with FF2 or IE7, and it won't play from the
URL via Real Player 11.

---
Chaos, panic, and disorder--my work here is done.

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:08:28 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:15:23 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, F.
George McDuffee quickly quoth:

An abrupt shift here. [sharp left turn???]

If you have high speed internet download and view (c. 1hr15min).

Caution: do not do this just before going to bed!!!

http://iopforum.harvard.edu/mp4/fr20070913noend.mp4

Do you have an alternative method of getting to download that file? It
won't resolve on my box with FF2 or IE7, and it won't play from the
URL via Real Player 11.
==================
Its a "regular [albeit very large c.396 meg] mp4 file. It opens
and runs fine for me using QuickTime 7.1.3 as a stand alone
application, but not so good using Real Player, Windows Media,
etc. as I get audio only, nothing, etc.
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/
Their "free" version seems to work fine for my uses on a W2k
system.

There is a freeware package designed for "alternate" web tv
downloading, viewing, and cataloging that may be of interest in
addition to [or in place of] QuickTime.
http://www.getmiro.com/
http://www.getmiro.com/download/
note that there are versions for Windows, Mac and several
verities of Linux including Ubuntu [scroll down]

If this is a topic of particular interest, be sure to check out
the link-tv/mosaic recaps of the mid-east newscasts and their
in-depth evaluations/analysis. What a change from the shouting
and 30 second sound-bites typical of American TV.
http://www.linktv.org/mosaic

Note to Gunner:
I burned you a copy on CD and just need your mail address. I
have room to include the QuickTime installer for windows if you
need that. On the Linux/Ubuntu side, applications / sound & vidio
/ movie player works but you may need to [automatically] download
additional codecs, which should be ok even over a 28.8 POTS
connection.

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:35:38 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


Note to Gunner:
I burned you a copy on CD and just need your mail address. I
have room to include the QuickTime installer for windows if you
need that. On the Linux/Ubuntu side, applications / sound & vidio
/ movie player works but you may need to [automatically] download
additional codecs, which should be ok even over a 28.8 POTS
connection.



Thanks George, Ive got all the codecs etc

Gunner

326 Olive Ave
Taft, California, 93268

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:35:38 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, F.
George McDuffee quickly quoth:

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 05:08:28 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:15:23 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, F.
George McDuffee quickly quoth:

An abrupt shift here. [sharp left turn???]

If you have high speed internet download and view (c. 1hr15min).

Caution: do not do this just before going to bed!!!

http://iopforum.harvard.edu/mp4/fr20070913noend.mp4

Do you have an alternative method of getting to download that file? It
won't resolve on my box with FF2 or IE7, and it won't play from the
URL via Real Player 11.
==================
Its a "regular [albeit very large c.396 meg] mp4 file. It opens
and runs fine for me using QuickTime 7.1.3 as a stand alone

I have QT 7.2.204 but both Firefox and IE show raw headers for the
file when I click on it. Neither will allow me to DL/save it.
Strange.


If this is a topic of particular interest, be sure to check out
the link-tv/mosaic recaps of the mid-east newscasts and their
in-depth evaluations/analysis. What a change from the shouting
and 30 second sound-bites typical of American TV.
http://www.linktv.org/mosaic

Man, I just lost my heart to that gorgeous brunette newscaster. What a
beauty!

---
Chaos, panic, and disorder--my work here is done.

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:28:18 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

I have QT 7.2.204 but both Firefox and IE show raw headers for the
file when I click on it. Neither will allow me to DL/save it.
Strange.
=========
I am running QT 7.3.1. QuickTime download website now says for
Vista or better. [so I installed Ubuntu 7.10 Linux but that's
another thread ...]

If you are a "cheap screw" [like me] and don't want to have to
replace your printer/scanner, etc. by upgrading to vista, then
check out another mp4 player. Try one of these, much smaller [
1 meg] so should be downloadable even with POTS.
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multime...4-Player.shtml
http://www.download3000.com/download_19434.html
http://www.gustosoft.com/divx-player...ivx-player.htm
also google on mp4 player download for 658k hits.
I haven't tried any of these, and be sure and check for viruses
before installing.

You also might install
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/fir...ded-0.5-fx.xpi
on

http://iopforum.harvard.edu/mp4/fr20070913noend.mp4 trashed
Foxfire for me also when I tried to access.
home page is http://www.iop.harvard.edu/
http://www.iop.harvard.edu/iop_feed.xml takes you to along
listing -- go about 1/3 down and click on the underlined blue
"No End In Sight" The American Occupation of Iraq
link indicates
http://iopforum.harvard.edu/mp3/fr20070913noend.mp3
with an ipv4 of 128.103.190.44 apparently has audio only
but Miro saved file has an mp4 extension and plays both video and
audio using Windows and Linux players. -- strange.

Using Miro on the Linux side of the box I get
http://iopforum.harvard.edu/mp4/fr20070913noend.mp4
as an address with the correct mp4 extensions. Try opening
QuickTime and then file /open file. This seems to work for me.

I find that Real Player v10.5 under w2k will download the file.

Anyone else having problems?

For a different view of the news from a Canadian perspective try
http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Globa...1/GN080115.m4v
This one gives a different slant on the recent hurrah/hooha about
the so-called super-estacy, and some observations about the US
financial firms you won't see on cnbc

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 22:26:12 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, F.
George McDuffee quickly quoth:

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:28:18 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

I have QT 7.2.204 but both Firefox and IE show raw headers for the
file when I click on it. Neither will allow me to DL/save it.
Strange.
=========
I am running QT 7.3.1. QuickTime download website now says for
Vista or better. [so I installed Ubuntu 7.10 Linux but that's
another thread ...]

If you are a "cheap screw" [like me] and don't want to have to
replace your printer/scanner, etc. by upgrading to vista, then

I don't consider Vista an upgrade, Unk.


check out another mp4 player. Try one of these, much smaller [
1 meg] so should be downloadable even with POTS.
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multime...4-Player.shtml
http://www.download3000.com/download_19434.html
http://www.gustosoft.com/divx-player...ivx-player.htm
also google on mp4 player download for 658k hits.
I haven't tried any of these, and be sure and check for viruses
before installing.

I have a DIVX player but the MP4 file wasn't available for download
via that original link.


You also might install
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/fir...ded-0.5-fx.xpi
on

Done.


http://iopforum.harvard.edu/mp4/fr20070913noend.mp4 trashed
Foxfire for me also when I tried to access.

It still does with the above addon installed. sigh


home page is http://www.iop.harvard.edu/
http://www.iop.harvard.edu/iop_feed.xml takes you to along
listing -- go about 1/3 down and click on the underlined blue
"No End In Sight" The American Occupation of Iraq
link indicates
http://iopforum.harvard.edu/mp3/fr20070913noend.mp3

That works, audio only, with the installed QT. Thanks.


with an ipv4 of 128.103.190.44 apparently has audio only
but Miro saved file has an mp4 extension and plays both video and
audio using Windows and Linux players. -- strange.

Using Miro on the Linux side of the box I get
http://iopforum.harvard.edu/mp4/fr20070913noend.mp4
as an address with the correct mp4 extensions. Try opening
QuickTime and then file /open file. This seems to work for me.

This brings up QT and it appears to be downloading the file before
playing it. (4 mins later, 3/4 done? We'll see...6 mins, still 3/4)


I find that Real Player v10.5 under w2k will download the file.

NOGO under XP.


Anyone else having problems?

For a different view of the news from a Canadian perspective try
http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/Globa...1/GN080115.m4v
This one gives a different slant on the recent hurrah/hooha about
the so-called super-estacy, and some observations about the US
financial firms you won't see on cnbc


---
Chaos, panic, and disorder--my work here is done.

On 2008-01-16, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
check out another mp4 player. Try one of these, much smaller [
1 meg] so should be downloadable even with POTS.
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multime...4-Player.shtml
http://www.download3000.com/download_19434.html
http://www.gustosoft.com/divx-player...ivx-player.htm
also google on mp4 player download for 658k hits.
I haven't tried any of these, and be sure and check for viruses
before installing.

I have a DIVX player but the MP4 file wasn't available for download
via that original link.


mplayer plays mp4 files like that, I just checked.

i

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:55:08 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus4376 quickly quoth:

On 2008-01-16, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
check out another mp4 player. Try one of these, much smaller [
1 meg] so should be downloadable even with POTS.
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multime...4-Player.shtml
http://www.download3000.com/download_19434.html
http://www.gustosoft.com/divx-player...ivx-player.htm
also google on mp4 player download for 658k hits.
I haven't tried any of these, and be sure and check for viruses
before installing.

I have a DIVX player but the MP4 file wasn't available for download
via that original link.


mplayer plays mp4 files like that, I just checked.

Were you able to download that particular file, Ig? I wasn't.

---
Chaos, panic, and disorder--my work here is done.

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos shoed that Jim Stewart
wrote on Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:50:59 -0800 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
F. George McDuffee wrote:

Oil hits 100$/bbl, gold hits 900$/oz, governmental debt at all
levels and the trade deficit continues to rapidly mount, and
California [as the first domino] is on the verge of bankruptcy.

Got a cite that California is "on the verge
of bankruptcy"?

Ummm, it is run by Democrats??

pyotr

Okay, not a cite, but ...
--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries