Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT


Raging Calif. fires burn scores of homes By ALLISON HOFFMAN and
GILLIAN FLACCUS, Associated Press Writers

Wildfires blown by fierce desert winds Monday reduced hundreds of
Southern California homes to ashes, forced hundreds of thousands of
people to flee and laid a hellish, spidery pattern of luminous orange
over the drought-stricken region.

At least one person was killed and dozens were injured. At least 655
homes burned - about 130 in one mountain area alone - and 168
businesses and other structures were destroyed. Thousands of other
buildings were threatened by more than a dozen blazes covering at
least 240,000 acres, the equivalent of 374 square miles.

"The sky was just red. Everywhere I looked was red, glowing. Law
enforcement came barreling in with police cars with loudspeakers
telling everyone to get out now," said Ronnie Leigh, 55, who fled her
mobile home in northern Los Angeles County as smoke darkened the sky
over the nearby ridge line.

Soon after nightfall, fire officials announced that 500 homes and 100
commercial properties had been destroyed by a fire in northern San
Diego County that exploded to 145,000 acres, said Roxanne Provaznik, a
spokeswoman for the California Department of Forestry. The fire
injured seven firefighters and one civilian, and was spreading
unchecked.

A pair of wildfires consumed 133 homes in the Lake Arrowhead mountain
resort area in the San Bernardino National Forest east of Los Angeles,
authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same community
fours years ago.

Firefighters - who lost valuable time trying to persuade stubborn
homeowners to leave - had their work cut out for them as winds gusting
to 70 mph scattered embers onto dry brush, spawning spot fires.
California officials pleaded for help from fire departments in other
states.

"A lot of people are going to lose their homes today," San Diego Fire
Capt. Lisa Blake predicted earlier.

At least 14 fires were burning in Southern California, said Patti
Roberts, a spokeswoman for the Governor's Office of Emergency
Services.

From San Diego to Malibu, more than 150 miles up the coast, at least
265,000 people were warned to leave their homes. More than 250,000
were told to flee in San Diego County alone.

"It's probably closer to 300,000," said County Supervisor Ron Roberts.

Hundreds of patients were moved by school bus and ambulance from a
hospital and nursing homes, some in hospital gowns and wheelchairs.
Some carried their medical records in clear plastic bags.

A 1,049-inmate jail in Orange County was evacuated because of heavy
smoke. The prisoners were bused to other lockups.

In San Diego County, where at least four fires burned, more than
200,000 reverse 911 calls - calls from county officials to residents -
alerted residents to evacuations, said County Supervisor Roberts.

About 10,000 of them ended up at Qualcomm Stadium, home to the NFL's
Chargers, where thousands of people huddled in eerie silence during
the day Monday, staring at muted TV news reports of the wildfires. A
lone concession stand served coffee and doughnuts. Many gathered in
the parking lot with their pets, which were banned from the stadium.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger arrived later Monday to a more festive
evening atmosphere, with live music and mountains of catered food. The
crowd hooted and hollered as he passed through, and Schwarzenegger
later declared that the people of this makeshift city "are very
happy."

The sprawling Del Mar Fairgrounds on the coast was also turned into an
evacuation center, along with high schools and senior centers. Marine
officials at Camp Pendleton opened their base to residents.

At least one of the fires, in Orange County, was believed to have been
set. And a blaze threatening the homes of the rich and famous in
Malibu might have been caused by downed power lines, authorities said.

Mel Gibson, Kelsey Grammer and Victoria Principal were among the
celebrities forced to flee over the weekend, their publicists said.

Another blaze was started by a car fire. Flying embers started new
fires at every turn. One of the San Diego fires was burning so fast
that authorities did not have an accurate count of how many homes had
been destroyed.

"It was nuclear winter. It was like Armageddon. It looked like the end
of the world," Mitch Mendler, a San Diego firefighter, said as he and
his crew stopped at a shopping center parking lot to refill their
water truck from a hydrant near a restaurant. Asked how many homes had
burned, he said, "I lost count."

Tom Sollie, 49, ignored evacuation orders in Rancho Bernardo to help
his neighbors spray roofs on his street with water. His home was
untouched, but he watched a neighbor's house reduced to nothing but
the remnants of a brick chimney. "The house went up like a Roman
candle," Sollie said.

He added: "If we weren't here, the whole neighborhood would go up.
There just aren't enough fire trucks around."

Parts of seven California counties were ablaze. By nightfall, embers
had ignited spot fires in ultrawealthy Rancho Santa Fe, a suburb north
of San Diego. The fires burned in lemon orchards, their smoke choking
the air around gated mansions.

Firefighters complained that their efforts to stop the flames were
delayed when they were confronted by people who refused to leave their
homes.

"They didn't evacuate at all, or delayed until it was too late," said
Bill Metcalf, a fire boss. "And those folks who are making those
decisions are actually stripping fire resources."

As flames, thick smoke and choking ash filled the air around San Diego
County's Lake Hodges, Stan Smith ignored orders to evacuate and stayed
behind to help rescue the horses of his neighbor Ken Morris.

"It's hard to leave all your belongings and take off, and the bad
thing is you can't get back in once you leave," Smith said.

"I heard the cops come by, and I just ducked," Morris said.

Besides, said Smith, "Lots of time the fire doesn't ever come. It's
come really close before. I've seen it so bad you couldn't even hear
yourself talk over the flames and ash blowing everywhere."

Black smoke blanketed much of northern San Diego and nearby suburbs as
flames hopscotched around homes in Rancho Bernardo, a community with
many elderly people, destroying one of every 10 homes on one busy
street.

Highways, canals and other features normally act as firebreaks. But
the towering flames and flying embers rendered them useless this
time.

Dozens of motorists gathered on an Interstate 15 overpass in San Diego
to watch flames race up a hillside and engulf at least a half-dozen
homes. Witnesses said they watched flames jump west across the 10-lane
freeway.

"The flames were like 100 feet high and it moved up the hill in
seconds. It was at the bottom, it was in the middle, and then it was
at the top," said Steve Jarrett, who helped a friend evacuate his home
in nearby Escondido.

Fire near the San Diego Wild Animal Park led authorities to move
condors, a cheetah, snakes and other animals to the fire-resistant
veterinary hospital on the grounds of the park. The large animals,
such as elephants, rhinos and antelope, were left in irrigated
enclosures.

The world-famous San Diego Zoo was not immediately threatened.

Schwarzenegger declared a state of emergency in the seven affected
counties, opening the way for government aid. He also made 1,500
California National Guardsmen available, and San Diego Mayor Jerry
Sanders said the troops' main focus would be to prevent looting and
help with evacuations.

"Its a tragic time for California," the governor said in Malibu, where
a church, homes and a mansion resembling a medieval castle were
destroyed over the weekend.

White House deputy press secretary Scott Stanzel said in an e-mail
that President Bush called Schwarzenegger to make sure the state is
getting the help it needs.

One person died in one of the fires near San Diego. More than a dozen
people were hospitalized with burns and smoke inhalation, including
four firefighters, three of whom were listed in critical condition,
officials said. Some of the injured were hikers, while others may be
illegal immigrants.

Among the evacuees were members of a National Guard unit that had to
flee its barracks, officials said.

Flames forced the evacuation of the San Diego community of Ramona,
which has a population of about 36,000.

Christine Baird, 42, was ordered to evacuate her apartment in the
Rancho Bernardo area at 5:30 a.m. She moved to California from Canada
earlier this year.

"Instead of snow we had ash all over the car," she said. "This is all
new for me. We've got no family in the area, so there's really nowhere
else to go."

___

Contributing to this report were Associated Press writers Chelsea J.
Carter and Jeremiah Marquez in Los Angeles, Jacob Adelman in Santa
Clarita, and Elliot Spagat and Scott Lindlaw in San Diego; and
National Writer Martha Mendoza in Lake Arrowhead.

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas, flood
plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother Nature
intrudes.

I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas,
flood plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother Nature
intrudes.

Is it me, or does this have a tinge of Biblical overtones?

Well, everyone knows, as Al said, it's because of global warming.

AND, building your house in the woods.


Steve

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:59:05 -0400, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
roups.com...
Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas, flood
plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother Nature
intrudes.

I live in a smallish logging town with three lumber mills; stud,
plywood and a Cedar mill. They've all been down to one shift for most
of th' year, but I noticed yesterday they're runnin' two shifts and
might even ramp up to 24/7. Big assed fires, hurricanes and th' like
fuel our economy. So I guess th' folks you mentioned above do have at
least one redeeming factor g.

Snarl

wrote:

I live in a smallish logging town with three lumber mills; stud,
plywood and a Cedar mill. They've all been down to one shift for most
of th' year, but I noticed yesterday they're runnin' two shifts and
might even ramp up to 24/7.


Well there goes the price of OSB again ;(

Wes

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:11:52 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
wrote:

I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields

yet the same group that controls the educational system demands we
rebuild New Orleans at taxpayer expense......




"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas,
flood plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother Nature
intrudes.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Quite a fire we have burning here....


This certainly seems to be an EPIC event! There have been some bad
fires in Ca before, but this one seems to be FAR, far worse than
anything I remember. Loss of life has been minimal so far, but the
number of temporarily displaced and homeless is just astounding!
And, it isn't OVER, yet! How much worse will it get?

I am very sorry for these losses, and I hope none of the people on this
group have lost their shops or other property.

Jon

"Tom Gardner" wrote:

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas, flood
plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother Nature
intrudes.

There is a huge number of people that live where they should not and all of
them expect a bailout.

The wilderness would likely be managable except for enviomental laws
restricting harvesting of dead and down trees and clear backs around homes.

Chit can hit you unexpected though. Living near Traverse City, Mi, I don't
expect tornado problems. Last week a few homes 2 miles from me were
flattened.

http://www.gaylordheraldtimes.com/ar...9246071306.txt

Wes

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...


Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Quite a fire we have burning here....


This certainly seems to be an EPIC event! There have been some bad
fires in Ca before, but this one seems to be FAR, far worse than
anything I remember. Loss of life has been minimal so far, but the
number of temporarily displaced and homeless is just astounding!
And, it isn't OVER, yet! How much worse will it get?

I am very sorry for these losses, and I hope none of the people on this
group have lost their shops or other property.

Jon


I used to live down there for over thirty years so this is nothing new to
me. The same thing happens almost every year, this is the worst it's ever
been but it happens all the time. Next thing you will hear about is the
mudslides that will come when it starts raining, if it does. Once the
vegetation is stripped from the land the mudslides will be real bad this
time because so much land will not have any cover on it. Part of the problem
is that people with money want to build houses right up against nature. When
nature comes knocking at their door they are not happy to see it. There are
so many more houses than there used to be it's no surprise that a lot of
them are getting burned down when the Santa Anas and fire come. They'll just
rebuild even more homes and sooner or later the same thing will happen
again. Nobody wants to change.

Hawke

Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:
I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
groups.com...

Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas,
flood plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother Nature
intrudes.






You just can't educate STUPID!

Jim Chandler

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:07:02 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:



Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Quite a fire we have burning here....


This certainly seems to be an EPIC event! There have been some bad
fires in Ca before, but this one seems to be FAR, far worse than
anything I remember. Loss of life has been minimal so far, but the
number of temporarily displaced and homeless is just astounding!
And, it isn't OVER, yet! How much worse will it get?

I am very sorry for these losses, and I hope none of the people on this
group have lost their shops or other property.

Jon


With the California (and national) housing market bubble
bursting...perhaps one can be comforted by thinking of this as
wholesale "jewish lightning "

G

Gunner

On Oct 23, 12:07 pm, Jon Elson wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Quite a fire we have burning here....

This certainly seems to be an EPIC event! There have been some bad
fires in Ca before, but this one seems to be FAR, far worse than
anything I remember. Loss of life has been minimal so far, but the
number of temporarily displaced and homeless is just astounding!
And, it isn't OVER, yet! How much worse will it get?

I am very sorry for these losses, and I hope none of the people on this
group have lost their shops or other property.

Jon

Jon, I concur with being sorry for their losses, having never had a
home burn before. My GM thinks this could be the "Big Banks" answer to
the mortgage loan crisis!

Paul

On Oct 23, 4:09 pm, "Hawke" wrote:
"Jon Elson" wrote in message

...







Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Quite a fire we have burning here....

This certainly seems to be an EPIC event! There have been some bad
fires in Ca before, but this one seems to be FAR, far worse than
anything I remember. Loss of life has been minimal so far, but the
number of temporarily displaced and homeless is just astounding!
And, it isn't OVER, yet! How much worse will it get?

I am very sorry for these losses, and I hope none of the people on this
group have lost their shops or other property.

Jon

I used to live down there for over thirty years so this is nothing new to
me. The same thing happens almost every year, this is the worst it's ever
been but it happens all the time. Next thing you will hear about is the
mudslides that will come when it starts raining, if it does. Once the
vegetation is stripped from the land the mudslides will be real bad this
time because so much land will not have any cover on it. Part of the problem
is that people with money want to build houses right up against nature. When
nature comes knocking at their door they are not happy to see it. There are
so many more houses than there used to be it's no surprise that a lot of
them are getting burned down when the Santa Anas and fire come. They'll just
rebuild even more homes and sooner or later the same thing will happen
again. Nobody wants to change.

Hawke- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well they may have to change.

Has anyone considered what YOUR insurance rates will do in response to
these fires?

The answer is that YOUR rates will be going up.

As for rebuilding, you need to go ask those in the hurricane belt what
their insurance rates have done.

If you can get insurance and that is a big IF....it is many times what
you paid just a few years ago.

TMT

On Oct 23, 1:12 pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:11:52 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"

wrote:
I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields

yet the same group that controls the educational system demands we
rebuild New Orleans at taxpayer expense......





"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
groups.com...
Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas,
flood plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother Nature
intrudes.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So Gunner...when is Bush scheduled for his photo op?

You know...like in New Orleans?

TMT

On Oct 23, 12:35 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

Raging Calif. fires burn scores of homes By ALLISON HOFFMAN and
GILLIAN FLACCUS, Associated Press Writers

Wildfires blown by fierce desert winds Monday reduced hundreds of
Southern California homes to ashes, forced hundreds of thousands of
people to flee and laid a hellish, spidery pattern of luminous orange
over the drought-stricken region.

At least one person was killed and dozens were injured. At least 655
homes burned - about 130 in one mountain area alone - and 168
businesses and other structures were destroyed. Thousands of other
buildings were threatened by more than a dozen blazes covering at
least 240,000 acres, the equivalent of 374 square miles.

"The sky was just red. Everywhere I looked was red, glowing. Law
enforcement came barreling in with police cars with loudspeakers
telling everyone to get out now," said Ronnie Leigh, 55, who fled her
mobile home in northern Los Angeles County as smoke darkened the sky
over the nearby ridge line.

Soon after nightfall, fire officials announced that 500 homes and 100
commercial properties had been destroyed by a fire in northern San
Diego County that exploded to 145,000 acres, said Roxanne Provaznik, a
spokeswoman for the California Department of Forestry. The fire
injured seven firefighters and one civilian, and was spreading
unchecked.

A pair of wildfires consumed 133 homes in the Lake Arrowhead mountain
resort area in the San Bernardino National Forest east of Los Angeles,
authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same community
fours years ago.

Firefighters - who lost valuable time trying to persuade stubborn
homeowners to leave - had their work cut out for them as winds gusting
to 70 mph scattered embers onto dry brush, spawning spot fires.
California officials pleaded for help from fire departments in other
states.

"A lot of people are going to lose their homes today," San Diego Fire
Capt. Lisa Blake predicted earlier.

At least 14 fires were burning in Southern California, said Patti
Roberts, a spokeswoman for the Governor's Office of Emergency
Services.

From San Diego to Malibu, more than 150 miles up the coast, at least

265,000 people were warned to leave their homes. More than 250,000
were told to flee in San Diego County alone.

"It's probably closer to 300,000," said County Supervisor Ron Roberts.

Hundreds of patients were moved by school bus and ambulance from a
hospital and nursing homes, some in hospital gowns and wheelchairs.
Some carried their medical records in clear plastic bags.

A 1,049-inmate jail in Orange County was evacuated because of heavy
smoke. The prisoners were bused to other lockups.

In San Diego County, where at least four fires burned, more than
200,000 reverse 911 calls - calls from county officials to residents -
alerted residents to evacuations, said County Supervisor Roberts.

About 10,000 of them ended up at Qualcomm Stadium, home to the NFL's
Chargers, where thousands of people huddled in eerie silence during
the day Monday, staring at muted TV news reports of the wildfires. A
lone concession stand served coffee and doughnuts. Many gathered in
the parking lot with their pets, which were banned from the stadium.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger arrived later Monday to a more festive
evening atmosphere, with live music and mountains of catered food. The
crowd hooted and hollered as he passed through, and Schwarzenegger
later declared that the people of this makeshift city "are very
happy."

The sprawling Del Mar Fairgrounds on the coast was also turned into an
evacuation center, along with high schools and senior centers. Marine
officials at Camp Pendleton opened their base to residents.

At least one of the fires, in Orange County, was believed to have been
set. And a blaze threatening the homes of the rich and famous in
Malibu might have been caused by downed power lines, authorities said.

Mel Gibson, Kelsey Grammer and Victoria Principal were among the
celebrities forced to flee over the weekend, their publicists said.

Another blaze was started by a car fire. Flying embers started new
fires at every turn. One of the San Diego fires was burning so fast
that authorities did not have an accurate count of how many homes had
been destroyed.

"It was nuclear winter. It was like Armageddon. It looked like the end
of the world," Mitch Mendler, a San Diego firefighter, said as he and
his crew stopped at a shopping center parking lot to refill their
water truck from a hydrant near a restaurant. Asked how many homes had
burned, he said, "I lost count."

Tom Sollie, 49, ignored evacuation orders in Rancho Bernardo to help
his neighbors spray roofs on his street with water. His home was
untouched, but he watched a neighbor's house reduced to nothing but
the remnants of a brick chimney. "The house went up like a Roman
candle," Sollie said.

He added: "If we weren't here, the whole neighborhood would go up.
There just aren't enough fire trucks around."

Parts of seven California counties were ablaze. By nightfall, embers
had ignited spot fires in ultrawealthy Rancho Santa Fe, a suburb north
of San Diego. The fires burned in lemon orchards, their smoke choking
the air around gated mansions.

Firefighters complained that their efforts to stop the flames were
delayed when they were confronted by people who refused to leave their
homes.

"They didn't evacuate at all, or delayed until it was too late," said
Bill Metcalf, a fire boss. "And those folks who are making those
decisions are actually stripping fire resources."

As flames, thick smoke and choking ash filled the air around San Diego
County's Lake Hodges, Stan Smith ignored orders to evacuate and stayed
behind to help rescue the horses of his neighbor Ken Morris.

"It's hard to leave all your belongings and take off, and the bad
thing is you can't get back in once you leave," Smith said.

"I heard the cops come by, and I just ducked," Morris said.

Besides, said Smith, "Lots of time the fire doesn't ever come. It's
come really close before. I've seen it so bad you couldn't even hear
yourself talk over the flames and ash blowing everywhere."

Black smoke blanketed much of northern San Diego and nearby suburbs as
flames hopscotched around homes in Rancho Bernardo, a community with
many elderly people, destroying one of every 10 homes on one busy
street.

Highways, canals and other features normally act as firebreaks. But
the towering flames and flying embers rendered them useless this
time.

Dozens of motorists gathered on an Interstate 15 overpass in San Diego
to watch flames race up a hillside and engulf at least a half-dozen
homes. Witnesses said they watched flames jump west across the 10-lane
freeway.

"The flames were like 100 feet high and it moved up the hill in
seconds. It was at the bottom, it was in the middle, and then it was
at the top," said Steve Jarrett, who helped a friend evacuate his home
in nearby Escondido.

Fire near the San Diego Wild Animal Park led authorities to move
condors, a cheetah, snakes and other animals to the fire-resistant
veterinary hospital on the grounds of the park. The large animals,
such as elephants, rhinos and antelope, were left in irrigated
enclosures.

The world-famous San Diego Zoo was not immediately threatened.

Schwarzenegger declared a state of emergency in the seven affected
counties, opening the way for government aid. He also made 1,500
California National Guardsmen available, and San Diego Mayor Jerry
Sanders said the troops' main focus would be to prevent looting and
help with evacuations.

"Its a tragic time for California," the governor said in Malibu, where
a church, homes and a mansion resembling a medieval castle were
destroyed over the weekend.

White House deputy press secretary Scott Stanzel said in an e-mail
that President Bush called Schwarzenegger to make sure the state is
getting the help it needs.

One person died in one of the fires near San Diego. More than a dozen
people were hospitalized with burns and smoke inhalation, including
four firefighters, three of whom were listed in critical condition,
officials said. Some of the injured were hikers, while others may be
illegal immigrants.

Among the evacuees were members of a National Guard unit that had to
flee its barracks, officials said.

Flames forced the evacuation of the San Diego community of Ramona,
which has a population of about 36,000.

Christine Baird, 42, was ordered to evacuate her apartment in the
Rancho Bernardo area at 5:30 a.m. She moved to California from Canada
earlier this year.

"Instead of snow we had ash all over the car," she said. "This is all
new for me. We've got no family in the area, so there's really nowhere
else to go."

___

Contributing to this report were Associated Press writers Chelsea J.
Carter and Jeremiah Marquez in Los Angeles, Jacob Adelman in Santa
Clarita, and Elliot Spagat and Scott Lindlaw in San Diego; and
National Writer Martha Mendoza in Lake Arrowhead.

You might find this of interest....

http://www.sherline.com/

NOTICE-10/22/07: Due to the fires burning near our factory in North
San Diego County, we have been experiencing periodic power outages. If
you call Sherline and do not get an answer, please try back later. We
are not in the path of the fire, but it is causing local power
disruptions.

Damn shame...what is burning is beautiful country that I know well.

TMT

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:11:52 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
wrote:


I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields


yet the same group that controls the educational system demands we
rebuild New Orleans at taxpayer expense......


It was a government agency that built the levees. If they're done a
better job in the first place , the need to rebuild wouldn't have
eventuated.

Jim

Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:

I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
groups.com...

Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas,
flood plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother Nature
intrudes.



Stu? Would that be short for stupid?

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:17:47 +1300, Jim wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:11:52 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
wrote:


I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields


yet the same group that controls the educational system demands we
rebuild New Orleans at taxpayer expense......


It was a government agency that built the levees. If they're done a
better job in the first place , the need to rebuild wouldn't have
eventuated.

Jim

Might I suggest a good quality roller bearing under your ass if you
are going to try that sort of spin?


http://www.voanews.com/english/archi...TOKEN=64128304

"the levees that protect New Orleans today date from the 1960s. They
were built in response to earlier floods that had severely damaged the
city, and were considered state of the art at the time. Journalist
John McQuaid says the engineers who designed that system of levees did
so without the benefit of today's advanced technology. "They didn't
really know, since they didn't have computers up and running that
could model storm surges and the like, exactly what level of
protection it afforded, in terms of how likely it was to be
over-topped, but they were pretty proud of it and thought it would
last a long time."

Once they got computers, he says, they did model the effect of a
hurricane, and establish a rating for exactly the strength of storm
the levees could withstand. "It was a fast-moving Category 3 storm.
Anything stronger than that, the levee system could not be guaranteed
to protect the city."

And the levees were no match for Katrina -- which came off the Gulf of
Mexico as a
Two breeches in the Florida Street levee, looking toward the
Mississippi River, are shown Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005, in New Orleans
after Hurricane Katrina moved through the area.
Two breeches in the Florida Street levee, looking toward the
Mississippi River, are shown Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005, in New Orleans
after Hurricane Katrina moved through the area.
much stronger, category 5 storm -- one of the most powerful hurricanes
to hit the United States in years. It was heading straight for New
Orleans but veered off at the last minute. The city was spared a
direct hit. But a storm surge in its wake pushed water from Lake
Pontchartrain over the floodwalls and levees, eating at their
foundations until large sections collapsed.

John McQuaid co-authored a series of articles published in 2002 in New
Orleans' main newspaper, The Times-Picayune, which described just that
vulnerability. "This issue is something that every public official
was aware of," he says. "We published our series, which splashed it
all over town, and the state, and most people who lived in New Orleans
were aware that this was a risk. Most people, I think, hoped and
prayed that it was a relatively remote risk. But in part, New Orleans
always had this fatalistic undercurrent to its character from the very
beginning, and so I think some people thought, well, we'll let the
good times roll and we'll deal with it when it happens."

The reporter puts more of the blame on the government agencies and
bureaucracies that evaluate risk and decide how much money to spend to
counter that risk.

But it's not just a question of money, says Neil Grigg, a professor of
civil engineering at Colorado State University. Levees - like roads
and bridges - need constant attention, too. "Once the levee's built
and it's in there, and people forget about it, as they will do, things
happen to make its condition deteriorate." He enumerates some of those
things: animals can burrow into it, weeds and trees can grow on the
slopes, water can weaken it. "It needs a lot of maintenance and a lot
of attention, continuously, if it's going to be something you can rely
on. It's like these other infrastructure problems, it's not something
you can just put in place and forget about it, it requires a lot of
attention in the future."

Civil engineers agree that the future of New Orleans must include a
rigorous and regular levee maintenance program, and a more robust
pumping system… and money to pay for it all. MIT Professor Rafael Bras
recommends finding a way to increase the sediment that the Mississippi
River once deposited to build up the land on which New Orleans sits.
"What you have in New Orleans is a delta," he explains, "and if you do
not supply the sediment to the delta, then, in essence, you have
increased erosion and that erosion will endanger your situation
further. One way of dealing with the vagaries of nature is to let
nature help also by making sure we have enough sediment (as possible)
getting to the delta."

In spite of all efforts to protect New Orleans, civil engineering
professor Neil Grigg cites a 1993 study that concluded it was futile
to try to stand against one of nature's most powerful events. "What we
need to do is to learn to adjust to those (events), and not to live in
vulnerable areas, to be ready to evacuate, to have warning systems,
and to use these sort of non-structural approaches rather than to
build levees higher and higher and stronger and stronger. That just
doesn't work."

Despite the inherent peril of living below sea level, officials so far
are pledging to rebuild the city. Engineers stress that a new New
Orleans will need better protection from the surrounding water… and
better emergency plans in case efforts to keep out the water fail.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9342186/

Is the Orleans Levee Board doing its job?
Critics allege corruption, charge the board with wasteful spending

FREE VIDEO
New Orleans levee board negligent?
Sept. 14: An NBC News investigation reveals that the New Orleans levee
board spent millions on pet projects that had nothing to do with
protecting the city. Correspondent Lisa Myers has the story.

The unveiling of the Mardi Gras Fountain was celebrated this year in
typical New Orleans style. The cost of $2.4 million was paid by the
Orleans Levee Board, the state agency whose main job is to protect the
levees surrounding New Orleans — the same levees that failed after
Katrina hit.

"They misspent the money," says Billy Nungesser, a former top
Republican official who was briefly president of the Levee Board. "Any
dollar they wasted was a dollar that could have went in the levees."

Nungesser says he lost his job because he targeted wasteful spending.

"A cesspool of politics, that’s all it was," says Nungesser. "[Its
purpose was to] provide jobs for people."

In fact, NBC News has uncovered a pattern of what critics call
questionable spending practices by the Levee Board — a board which, at
one point, was accused by a state inspector general of "a
long-standing and continuing disregard of the public interest."

Beyond the fountain, there's the $15 million spent on two overpasses
that helped gamblers get to Bally's riverboat casino. Critics tried
and failed to put some of that money into flood protection.

There was also $45,000 for private investigators to dig up dirt on
radio host and board critic Robert Namer.

"They hired a private eye for nine months to find something to make me
look wacko, to make me look crazy or bad." says Namer. "They couldn’t
find anything."

Namer sued and the board then spent another $45,000 to settle.

Critics charge, for years, the board has paid more attention to
marinas, gambling and business than to maintaining the levees. As an
example: of 11 construction projects now on the board's Web site, only
two are related to flood control.

"I assure you," says Levee Board President Jim Huey, "that you will
find that all of our money was appropriately expended."

Huey says money for the levees comes from a different account than
money for business activities and that part of the board’s job is
providing recreational opportunities.

And despite the catastrophic flooding, Huey says, "As far as the
overall flood protection system, it's intact, it's there today, it
worked. In 239 miles of levees, 152 floodgates, and canals throughout
this entire city, there was only two areas."

But those two critical areas were major canals and their collapse
contributed to hundreds of deaths and widespread destruction.

Lisa Myers is NBC’s senior investigative correspondent.
© 2007 MSNBC Interactive

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:17:47 +1300, Jim wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:


On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:11:52 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
wrote:



I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields


yet the same group that controls the educational system demands we
rebuild New Orleans at taxpayer expense......



It was a government agency that built the levees. If they're done a
better job in the first place , the need to rebuild wouldn't have
eventuated.

Jim


Might I suggest a good quality roller bearing under your ass if you
are going to try that sort of spin?


So what bearing are you generating your spin upon? Good chance it's defective...

http://tinyurl.com/354wfe
Army Corps Is Faulted on New Orleans Levees
Panel Says Studies Foresaw Failure, Urges New Scrutiny

By Joby Warrick and Peter Whoriskey
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, March 25, 2006; Page A06

An organization of civil engineers yesterday questioned the soundness of large portions of New
Orleans's levee system, warning that the city's federally designed flood walls were not built to
standards stringent enough to protect a large city.

The group faulted the agency responsible for the levees, the Army Corps of Engineers, for adopting
safety standards that were "too close to the margin" to protect human life. It also called for an
urgent reexamination of the entire levee system, saying there are no assurances that the miles of
concrete "I-walls" in New Orleans will hold up against even a moderate hurricane.

The American Society of Civil Engineers said the levees' collapse was predictable and that the Army
Corps of Engineers failed to anticipate their breakdown.
The American Society of Civil Engineers said the levees' collapse was predictable and that the Army
Corps of Engineers failed to anticipate their breakdown. (Michel du Cille - The Washington Post)
Coverage of the Storms
A Devastating Season

The Gulf Coast was hit hard by two massive hurricanes in the fall of 2005.


"The ability of any I-wall in New Orleans to withstand . . . is unknown," said the American Society
of Civil Engineers' External Review Panel, which was appointed to oversee the Corps investigation of
the levee system's collapse during Hurricane Katrina.

The civil engineers group also rejected the explanation given by the Corps that the system had
failed because Katrina had unleashed "unforeseeable" physical forces that weakened the flood walls.
In a letter to Lt. Gen. Carl A. Strock, the Corps' commander, the civil engineers cited three
previous Corps studies that predicted precisely the chain of events that caused the city's 17th
Street Canal flood wall to fail. The breach left much of central and downtown New Orleans underwater.

"It appears that this information never triggered an assessment . . . neither at the time of the
design of the 17th Street Canal flood wall, nor following its construction," the letter said.

Corps officials said they had already taken steps to address problems identified in the letter,
starting with an effort to replace miles of I-walls with sturdier structures. But agency officials
insisted the Corps was not solely to blame for weaknesses in the system.

"We have done the best things we could have done. We live here," spokeswoman Susan J. Jackson said.
During four decades of levee-building in New Orleans, Jackson said, the agency frequently found its
hands tied because of restrictions imposed by budgets, by Congress or by local governments that
often failed to meet financial responsibilities to help build and maintain the levees. Jackson
added: "It was a question of who was going to pay, and how much."

The American Society of Civil Engineers panel is one of three independent teams investigating the
failure of the New Orleans levees, and until now it has been the most cautious in its public
criticisms. The other investigating teams quickly endorsed its findings.

"We agree that every single foot of the I-walls is suspect," said Ivor van Heerden, leader of a
Louisiana-appointed team of engineers. "When asked, we have constantly urged anyone returning to New
Orleans to exercise caution, because the system now in place could fail in a Category 2 storm. It
has already failed during a fast-moving Category 3 storm that missed New Orleans by 30 miles."

Two weeks ago, the Corps proposed a new theory for why the 17th Street Canal flood wall collapsed on
Aug. 29, despite never being overtopped by Katrina's floodwaters. Whereas previous investigations
had pointed to weak soils beneath the flood wall, new data suggested a combination of factors:
First, the force of rising floodwaters inside the canal bent the walls outward, creating a small gap
between the walls and their earthen foundation. Then, water surged into the gap, pressing the walls
further until they broke through a layer of weak soil piled up against the sides. In effect, the
levee was sliced in half along its ridge.

Corps officials initially said they had never known a levee to fail this way, and they suggested
that no one could have predicted it. But the civil engineers panel said yesterday that the failure
was foreseen by the Corps' own studies, dating to the mid-1980s. It said the Corps' failure to
anticipate the problem reflected an "overall pattern of engineering judgment inconsistent with that
required for critical structures."

Throughout the design process, the civil engineers said, the Corps consistently failed to make the
kinds of conservative judgments necessary when working in an environment where the soils are
notoriously unstable and the stakes, as measured in human lives, are high.

"These findings present significant implications for current and future safety offered by levees,
flood walls and control structures in New Orleans, and perhaps elsewhere," the letter to Strock said.

The civil engineers panel is due to release a formal report on its findings in two weeks, but its
members chose to send the letter to Strock separately, citing the "gravity and potential impact" of
their findings.

Whoriskey reported from New Orleans.

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:39:29 +1300, Jim wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:17:47 +1300, Jim wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:


On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:11:52 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
wrote:



I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields


yet the same group that controls the educational system demands we
rebuild New Orleans at taxpayer expense......



It was a government agency that built the levees. If they're done a
better job in the first place , the need to rebuild wouldn't have
eventuated.

Jim


Might I suggest a good quality roller bearing under your ass if you
are going to try that sort of spin?


So what bearing are you generating your spin upon? Good chance it's defective...

My spin? Your spin. I suggest a good tapered roller bearing.

http://tinyurl.com/354wfe
Army Corps Is Faulted on New Orleans Levees
Panel Says Studies Foresaw Failure, Urges New Scrutiny

By Joby Warrick and Peter Whoriskey
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, March 25, 2006; Page A06

An organization of civil engineers yesterday questioned the soundness of large portions of New
Orleans's levee system, warning that the city's federally designed flood walls were not built to
standards stringent enough to protect a large city.

Yes.

The group faulted the agency responsible for the levees, the Army Corps of Engineers, for adopting
safety standards that were "too close to the margin" to protect human life. It also called for an
urgent reexamination of the entire levee system, saying there are no assurances that the miles of
concrete "I-walls" in New Orleans will hold up against even a moderate hurricane.

Yes. Those walls built in the 1960s as the parts you snipped away
indicated.

The American Society of Civil Engineers said the levees' collapse was predictable and that the Army
Corps of Engineers failed to anticipate their breakdown.

The possiblity of breakdown was well known for years.

The American Society of Civil Engineers said the levees' collapse was predictable and that the Army
Corps of Engineers failed to anticipate their breakdown. (Michel du Cille - The Washington Post)
Coverage of the Storms
A Devastating Season

The Gulf Coast was hit hard by two massive hurricanes in the fall of 2005.


"The ability of any I-wall in New Orleans to withstand . . . is unknown," said the American Society
of Civil Engineers' External Review Panel, which was appointed to oversee the Corps investigation of
the levee system's collapse during Hurricane Katrina.

The civil engineers group also rejected the explanation given by the Corps that the system had
failed because Katrina had unleashed "unforeseeable" physical forces that weakened the flood walls.
In a letter to Lt. Gen. Carl A. Strock, the Corps' commander, the civil engineers cited three
previous Corps studies that predicted precisely the chain of events that caused the city's 17th
Street Canal flood wall to fail. The breach left much of central and downtown New Orleans underwater.

"It appears that this information never triggered an assessment . . . neither at the time of the
design of the 17th Street Canal flood wall, nor following its construction," the letter said.

Corps officials said they had already taken steps to address problems identified in the letter,
starting with an effort to replace miles of I-walls with sturdier structures. But agency officials
insisted the Corps was not solely to blame for weaknesses in the system.

"We have done the best things we could have done. We live here," spokeswoman Susan J. Jackson said.
During four decades of levee-building in New Orleans, Jackson said, the agency frequently found its
hands tied because of restrictions imposed by budgets, by Congress or by local governments that
often failed to meet financial responsibilities to help build and maintain the levees. Jackson
added: "It was a question of who was going to pay, and how much."

The American Society of Civil Engineers panel is one of three independent teams investigating the
failure of the New Orleans levees, and until now it has been the most cautious in its public
criticisms. The other investigating teams quickly endorsed its findings.

"We agree that every single foot of the I-walls is suspect," said Ivor van Heerden, leader of a
Louisiana-appointed team of engineers. "When asked, we have constantly urged anyone returning to New
Orleans to exercise caution, because the system now in place could fail in a Category 2 storm. It
has already failed during a fast-moving Category 3 storm that missed New Orleans by 30 miles."

Two weeks ago, the Corps proposed a new theory for why the 17th Street Canal flood wall collapsed on
Aug. 29, despite never being overtopped by Katrina's floodwaters. Whereas previous investigations
had pointed to weak soils beneath the flood wall, new data suggested a combination of factors:
First, the force of rising floodwaters inside the canal bent the walls outward, creating a small gap
between the walls and their earthen foundation. Then, water surged into the gap, pressing the walls
further until they broke through a layer of weak soil piled up against the sides. In effect, the
levee was sliced in half along its ridge.

Corps officials initially said they had never known a levee to fail this way, and they suggested
that no one could have predicted it. But the civil engineers panel said yesterday that the failure
was foreseen by the Corps' own studies, dating to the mid-1980s. It said the Corps' failure to
anticipate the problem reflected an "overall pattern of engineering judgment inconsistent with that
required for critical structures."

Throughout the design process, the civil engineers said, the Corps consistently failed to make the
kinds of conservative judgments necessary when working in an environment where the soils are
notoriously unstable and the stakes, as measured in human lives, are high.

"These findings present significant implications for current and future safety offered by levees,
flood walls and control structures in New Orleans, and perhaps elsewhere," the letter to Strock said.

The civil engineers panel is due to release a formal report on its findings in two weeks, but its
members chose to send the letter to Strock separately, citing the "gravity and potential impact" of
their findings.

Whoriskey reported from New Orleans.

"the levees that protect New Orleans today date from the 1960s. They
were built in response to earlier floods that had severely damaged the
city, and were considered state of the art at the time. Journalist
John McQuaid says the engineers who designed that system of levees did
so without the benefit of today's advanced technology. "They didn't
really know, since they didn't have computers up and running that
could model storm surges and the like, exactly what level of
protection it afforded, in terms of how likely it was to be
over-topped, but they were pretty proud of it and thought it would
last a long time."

Once they got computers, he says, they did model the effect of a
hurricane, and establish a rating for exactly the strength of storm
the levees could withstand. "It was a fast-moving Category 3 storm.
Anything stronger than that, the levee system could not be guaranteed
to protect the city."

And the levees were no match for Katrina -- which came off the Gulf of
Mexico as a
Two breeches in the Florida Street levee, looking toward the
Mississippi River, are shown Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005, in New Orleans
after Hurricane Katrina moved through the area.
Two breeches in the Florida Street levee, looking toward the
Mississippi River, are shown Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005, in New Orleans
after Hurricane Katrina moved through the area.
much stronger, category 5 storm -- one of the most powerful hurricanes
to hit the United States in years. It was heading straight for New
Orleans but veered off at the last minute. The city was spared a
direct hit. But a storm surge in its wake pushed water from Lake
Pontchartrain over the floodwalls and levees, eating at their
foundations until large sections collapsed.

John McQuaid co-authored a series of articles published in 2002 in New
Orleans' main newspaper, The Times-Picayune, which described just that
vulnerability. "This issue is something that every public official
was aware of," he says. "We published our series, which splashed it
all over town, and the state, and most people who lived in New Orleans
were aware that this was a risk. Most people, I think, hoped and
prayed that it was a relatively remote risk. But in part, New Orleans
always had this fatalistic undercurrent to its character from the very
beginning, and so I think some people thought, well, we'll let the
good times roll and we'll deal with it when it happens."

The reporter puts more of the blame on the government agencies and
bureaucracies that evaluate risk and decide how much money to spend to
counter that risk.

But it's not just a question of money, says Neil Grigg, a professor of
civil engineering at Colorado State University. Levees - like roads
and bridges - need constant attention, too. "Once the levee's built
and it's in there, and people forget about it, as they will do, things
happen to make its condition deteriorate." He enumerates some of those
things: animals can burrow into it, weeds and trees can grow on the
slopes, water can weaken it. "It needs a lot of maintenance and a lot
of attention, continuously, if it's going to be something you can rely
on. It's like these other infrastructure problems, it's not something
you can just put in place and forget about it, it requires a lot of
attention in the future."

Civil engineers agree that the future of New Orleans must include a
rigorous and regular levee maintenance program, and a more robust
pumping system… and money to pay for it all. MIT Professor Rafael Bras
recommends finding a way to increase the sediment that the Mississippi
River once deposited to build up the land on which New Orleans sits.
"What you have in New Orleans is a delta," he explains, "and if you do
not supply the sediment to the delta, then, in essence, you have
increased erosion and that erosion will endanger your situation
further. One way of dealing with the vagaries of nature is to let
nature help also by making sure we have enough sediment (as possible)
getting to the delta."

In spite of all efforts to protect New Orleans, civil engineering
professor Neil Grigg cites a 1993 study that concluded it was futile
to try to stand against one of nature's most powerful events. "What we
need to do is to learn to adjust to those (events), and not to live in
vulnerable areas, to be ready to evacuate, to have warning systems,
and to use these sort of non-structural approaches rather than to
build levees higher and higher and stronger and stronger. That just
doesn't work."

Despite the inherent peril of living below sea level, officials so far
are pledging to rebuild the city. Engineers stress that a new New
Orleans will need better protection from the surrounding water… and
better emergency plans in case efforts to keep out the water fail.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9342186/

Is the Orleans Levee Board doing its job?
Critics allege corruption, charge the board with wasteful spending


New Orleans levee board negligent?
Sept. 14: An NBC News investigation reveals that the New Orleans levee
board spent millions on pet projects that had nothing to do with
protecting the city. Correspondent Lisa Myers has the story.

The unveiling of the Mardi Gras Fountain was celebrated this year in
typical New Orleans style. The cost of $2.4 million was paid by the
Orleans Levee Board, the state agency whose main job is to protect the
levees surrounding New Orleans — the same levees that failed after
Katrina hit.

"They misspent the money," says Billy Nungesser, a former top
Republican official who was briefly president of the Levee Board. "Any
dollar they wasted was a dollar that could have went in the levees."

Nungesser says he lost his job because he targeted wasteful spending.

"A cesspool of politics, that’s all it was," says Nungesser. "[Its
purpose was to] provide jobs for people."

In fact, NBC News has uncovered a pattern of what critics call
questionable spending practices by the Levee Board — a board which, at
one point, was accused by a state inspector general of "a
long-standing and continuing disregard of the public interest."

Beyond the fountain, there's the $15 million spent on two overpasses
that helped gamblers get to Bally's riverboat casino. Critics tried
and failed to put some of that money into flood protection.

There was also $45,000 for private investigators to dig up dirt on
radio host and board critic Robert Namer.

"They hired a private eye for nine months to find something to make me
look wacko, to make me look crazy or bad." says Namer. "They couldn’t
find anything."

Namer sued and the board then spent another $45,000 to settle.

Critics charge, for years, the board has paid more attention to
marinas, gambling and business than to maintaining the levees. As an
example: of 11 construction projects now on the board's Web site, only
two are related to flood control.

"I assure you," says Levee Board President Jim Huey, "that you will
find that all of our money was appropriately expended."

Huey says money for the levees comes from a different account than
money for business activities and that part of the board’s job is
providing recreational opportunities.

And despite the catastrophic flooding, Huey says, "As far as the
overall flood protection system, it's intact, it's there today, it
worked. In 239 miles of levees, 152 floodgates, and canals throughout
this entire city, there was only two areas."

But those two critical areas were major canals and their collapse
contributed to hundreds of deaths and widespread destruction.

Lisa Myers is NBC’s senior investigative correspondent.
© 2007 MSNBC Interactive

On Oct 24, 5:07 am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:39:29 +1300, Jim wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:17:47 +1300, Jim wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:11:52 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
wrote:

I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields

yet the same group that controls the educational system demands we
rebuild New Orleans at taxpayer expense......

It was a government agency that built the levees. If they're done a
better job in the first place , the need to rebuild wouldn't have
eventuated.

Jim

Might I suggest a good quality roller bearing under your ass if you
are going to try that sort of spin?

So what bearing are you generating your spin upon? Good chance it's defective...

My spin? Your spin. I suggest a good tapered roller bearing.



http://tinyurl.com/354wfe
Army Corps Is Faulted on New Orleans Levees
Panel Says Studies Foresaw Failure, Urges New Scrutiny

By Joby Warrick and Peter Whoriskey
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, March 25, 2006; Page A06

An organization of civil engineers yesterday questioned the soundness of large portions of New
Orleans's levee system, warning that the city's federally designed flood walls were not built to
standards stringent enough to protect a large city.

Yes.



The group faulted the agency responsible for the levees, the Army Corps of Engineers, for adopting
safety standards that were "too close to the margin" to protect human life. It also called for an
urgent reexamination of the entire levee system, saying there are no assurances that the miles of
concrete "I-walls" in New Orleans will hold up against even a moderate hurricane.

Yes. Those walls built in the 1960s as the parts you snipped away
indicated.



The American Society of Civil Engineers said the levees' collapse was predictable and that the Army
Corps of Engineers failed to anticipate their breakdown.

The possiblity of breakdown was well known for years.





The American Society of Civil Engineers said the levees' collapse was predictable and that the Army
Corps of Engineers failed to anticipate their breakdown. (Michel du Cille - The Washington Post)
Coverage of the Storms
A Devastating Season

The Gulf Coast was hit hard by two massive hurricanes in the fall of 2005.

"The ability of any I-wall in New Orleans to withstand . . . is unknown," said the American Society
of Civil Engineers' External Review Panel, which was appointed to oversee the Corps investigation of
the levee system's collapse during Hurricane Katrina.

The civil engineers group also rejected the explanation given by the Corps that the system had
failed because Katrina had unleashed "unforeseeable" physical forces that weakened the flood walls.
In a letter to Lt. Gen. Carl A. Strock, the Corps' commander, the civil engineers cited three
previous Corps studies that predicted precisely the chain of events that caused the city's 17th
Street Canal flood wall to fail. The breach left much of central and downtown New Orleans underwater.

"It appears that this information never triggered an assessment . . . neither at the time of the
design of the 17th Street Canal flood wall, nor following its construction," the letter said.

Corps officials said they had already taken steps to address problems identified in the letter,
starting with an effort to replace miles of I-walls with sturdier structures. But agency officials
insisted the Corps was not solely to blame for weaknesses in the system.

"We have done the best things we could have done. We live here," spokeswoman Susan J. Jackson said.
During four decades of levee-building in New Orleans, Jackson said, the agency frequently found its
hands tied because of restrictions imposed by budgets, by Congress or by local governments that
often failed to meet financial responsibilities to help build and maintain the levees. Jackson
added: "It was a question of who was going to pay, and how much."

The American Society of Civil Engineers panel is one of three independent teams investigating the
failure of the New Orleans levees, and until now it has been the most cautious in its public
criticisms. The other investigating teams quickly endorsed its findings.

"We agree that every single foot of the I-walls is suspect," said Ivor van Heerden, leader of a
Louisiana-appointed team of engineers. "When asked, we have constantly urged anyone returning to New
Orleans to exercise caution, because the system now in place could fail in a Category 2 storm. It
has already failed during a fast-moving Category 3 storm that missed New Orleans by 30 miles."

Two weeks ago, the Corps proposed a new theory for why the 17th Street Canal flood wall collapsed on
Aug. 29, despite never being overtopped by Katrina's floodwaters. Whereas previous investigations
had pointed to weak soils beneath the flood wall, new data suggested a combination of factors:
First, the force of rising floodwaters inside the canal bent the walls outward, creating a small gap
between the walls and their earthen foundation. Then, water surged into the gap, pressing the walls
further until they broke through a layer of weak soil piled up against the sides. In effect, the
levee was sliced in half along its ridge.

Corps officials initially said they had never known a levee to fail this way, and they suggested
that no one could have predicted it. But the civil engineers panel said yesterday that the failure
was foreseen by the Corps' own studies, dating to the mid-1980s. It said the Corps' failure to
anticipate the problem reflected an "overall pattern of engineering judgment inconsistent with that
required for critical structures."

Throughout the design process, the civil engineers said, the Corps consistently failed to make the
kinds of conservative judgments necessary when working in an environment where the soils are
notoriously unstable and the stakes, as measured in human lives, are high.

"These findings present significant implications for current and future safety offered by levees,
flood walls and control structures in New Orleans, and perhaps elsewhere," the letter to Strock said.

The civil engineers panel is due to release a formal report on its findings in two weeks, but its
members chose to send the letter to Strock separately, citing the "gravity and potential impact" of
their findings.

Whoriskey reported from New Orleans.

"the levees that protect New Orleans today date from the 1960s. They
were built in response to earlier floods that had severely damaged the
city, and were considered state of the art at the time. Journalist
John McQuaid says the engineers who designed that system of levees did
so without the benefit of today's advanced technology. "They didn't
really know, since they didn't have computers up and running that
could model storm surges and the like, exactly what level of
protection it afforded, in terms of how likely it was to be
over-topped, but they were pretty proud of it and thought it would
last a long time."

Once they got computers, he says, they did model the effect of a
hurricane, and establish a rating for exactly the strength of storm
the levees could withstand. "It was a fast-moving Category 3 storm.
Anything stronger than that, the levee system could not be guaranteed
to protect the city."

And the levees were no match for Katrina -- which came off the Gulf of
Mexico as a
Two breeches in the Florida Street levee, looking toward the
Mississippi River, are shown Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005, in New Orleans
after Hurricane Katrina moved through the area.
Two breeches in the Florida Street levee, looking toward the
Mississippi River, are shown Tuesday, Aug. 30, 2005, in New Orleans
after Hurricane Katrina moved through the area.
much stronger, category 5 storm -- one of the most powerful hurricanes
to hit the United States in years. It was heading straight for New
Orleans but veered off at the last minute. The city was spared a
direct hit. But a storm surge in its wake pushed water from Lake
Pontchartrain over the floodwalls and levees, eating at their
foundations until large sections collapsed.

John McQuaid co-authored a series of articles published in 2002 in New
Orleans' main newspaper, The Times-Picayune, which described just that
vulnerability. "This issue is something that every public official
was aware of," he says. "We published our series, which splashed it
all over town, and the state, and most people who lived in New Orleans
were aware that this was a risk. Most people, I think, hoped and
prayed that it was a relatively remote risk. But in part, New Orleans
always had this fatalistic undercurrent to its character from the very
beginning, and so I think some people thought, well, we'll let the
good times roll and we'll deal with it when it happens."

The reporter puts more of the blame on the government agencies and
bureaucracies that evaluate risk and decide how much money to spend to
counter that risk.

But it's not just a question of money, says Neil Grigg, a professor of
civil engineering at Colorado State University. Levees - like roads
and bridges - need constant attention, too. "Once the levee's built
and it's in there, and people forget about it, as they will do, things
happen to make its condition deteriorate." He enumerates some of those
things: animals can burrow into it, weeds and trees can grow on the
slopes, water can weaken it. "It needs a lot of maintenance and a lot
of attention, continuously, if it's going to be something you can rely
on. It's like these other infrastructure problems, it's not something
you can just put ...

read more »- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

LOL...well I am glad to see you guys are staying on topic....any
suggestions as to what high pressure high temp lubrication that
bearing will use?

Gunner...if you consider the New Orleans effort to be adequate and all
those people should not be living in harm's way, then where do you
suggest the California solution be to relocating all these people in
the fire's way?

Can they come live with you?

Or are you living where you shouldn't be?

TMT

**** ** ** **** ******
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***** ** ** ** **** ****** **
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On Oct 24, 12:57 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:
**** ** ** **** ******
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Gee gunner..how many aliases do you have?

TMT

Jim wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:11:52 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"
wrote:


I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in
the same communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw
in our education system.
Stu Fields



yet the same group that controls the educational system demands we
rebuild New Orleans at taxpayer expense......


It was a government agency that built the levees. If they're done a
better job in the first place , the need to rebuild wouldn't have
eventuated.

Jim

Levees are mostly dirt banks and water can destroy them quite easily, no
matter how well they seem to be built.

Jim Chandler

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 23, 1:12 pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:11:52 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"

wrote:
I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the
same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields

yet the same group that controls the educational system demands we
rebuild New Orleans at taxpayer expense......





"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
groups.com...
Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas,
flood plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother
Nature
intrudes.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So Gunner...when is Bush scheduled for his photo op?

You know...like in New Orleans?

TMT

Never mind, help is on the way. British Columbia is sending the giant Martin
Mars water bombers. I have seen them working when they fought some fires
near where I live. Back in the 1960s I used to park a Cessna 150 under the
starboard wing of one, with several other light aircraft. The Mars were
being converted to water bombers at that time.


Steve R.



--
Reply address munged to bugger up spammers

Steve R. wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...

On Oct 23, 1:12 pm, Gunner Asch wrote:

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:11:52 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"

wrote:

I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the
same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields

yet the same group that controls the educational system demands we
rebuild New Orleans at taxpayer expense......






"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
.. .

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
glegroups.com...

Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas,
flood plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother
Nature
intrudes.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So Gunner...when is Bush scheduled for his photo op?

You know...like in New Orleans?

TMT


Never mind, help is on the way. British Columbia is sending the giant Martin
Mars water bombers. I have seen them working when they fought some fires
near where I live. Back in the 1960s I used to park a Cessna 150 under the
starboard wing of one, with several other light aircraft. The Mars were
being converted to water bombers at that time.


Steve R.




Steve?
The Mars in NOT an amphibian, is it?
So just how deep were you parking that 150?

wrote:
On Oct 23, 12:07 pm, Jon Elson wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Quite a fire we have burning here....

This certainly seems to be an EPIC event! There have been some bad
fires in Ca before, but this one seems to be FAR, far worse than
anything I remember. Loss of life has been minimal so far, but the
number of temporarily displaced and homeless is just astounding!
And, it isn't OVER, yet! How much worse will it get?

I am very sorry for these losses, and I hope none of the people on this
group have lost their shops or other property.

Jon


Jon, I concur with being sorry for their losses, having never had a
home burn before. My GM thinks this could be the "Big Banks" answer to
the mortgage loan crisis!
Huh? The mortgage lender's last resort is to foreclose and sell
the house for what it will bring. Now, there's no house to
sell! Or, did you mean something else by "Big Banks"?

GM = general manager, grandmother, ????

This is certainly going to be a BIG mess, billion $ losses for sure.

Jon

On Oct 24, 9:55 pm, Jon Elson wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 23, 12:07 pm, Jon Elson wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Quite a fire we have burning here....

This certainly seems to be an EPIC event! There have been some bad
fires in Ca before, but this one seems to be FAR, far worse than
anything I remember. Loss of life has been minimal so far, but the
number of temporarily displaced and homeless is just astounding!
And, it isn't OVER, yet! How much worse will it get?

I am very sorry for these losses, and I hope none of the people on this
group have lost their shops or other property.

Jon

Jon, I concur with being sorry for their losses, having never had a
home burn before. My GM thinks this could be the "Big Banks" answer to
the mortgage loan crisis!

Huh? The mortgage lender's last resort is to foreclose and sell
the house for what it will bring. Now, there's no house to
sell! Or, did you mean something else by "Big Banks"?

GM = general manager, grandmother, ????

This is certainly going to be a BIG mess, billion $ losses for sure.

Jon- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars.

This is the type of tipping point that can push the economy into
recession.

TMT

Steve R. wrote:

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...

On Oct 23, 1:12 pm, Gunner Asch wrote:

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:11:52 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"

wrote:

I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the
same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields

yet the same group that controls the educational system demands we
rebuild New Orleans at taxpayer expense......






"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
.. .

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
glegroups.com...

Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas,
flood plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother
Nature
intrudes.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So Gunner...when is Bush scheduled for his photo op?

You know...like in New Orleans?

TMT


Never mind, help is on the way. British Columbia is sending the giant Martin
Mars water bombers. I have seen them working when they fought some fires
near where I live. Back in the 1960s I used to park a Cessna 150 under the
starboard wing of one, with several other light aircraft. The Mars were
being converted to water bombers at that time.


Steve R.




One's already here. They had footage of it landing on Lake Elsinore
this afternoon. After it clears customs and the crew gets some rest it
should go into service tomorrow.

Jim Chandler

On Oct 25, 4:06 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars.

This is the type of tipping point that can push the economy into
recession.

TMT

I would think it would push the economy the other way. Billions and
Billions of dollars spent to rebuild. Lots of jobs for carpenters,
electricians, plumbers, landscape workers, lumber mill workers and
lumber jacks. Hotels and motels filled up. Overtime money for
firefighters and other emergency workers. More fire fighting
equipment ordered.

Can't think of any reason for a recession.

Dan

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 25, 4:06 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars.

This is the type of tipping point that can push the economy into
recession.

TMT

I would think it would push the economy the other way. Billions and
Billions of dollars spent to rebuild. Lots of jobs for carpenters,
electricians, plumbers, landscape workers, lumber mill workers and
lumber jacks. Hotels and motels filled up. Overtime money for
firefighters and other emergency workers. More fire fighting
equipment ordered.

Can't think of any reason for a recession.

Because, despite all that work, nothing is produced. It's just a
redistribution of the income from real production elsewhere in the economy.
An economist would point out that aside from the fact that it's just
redistribution, that all of the activity actually is a net loss to the
economy, diverting manpower and other resources into a nonproductive
activity.

It's very much like the "economic activity" that goes into production for
war. There are at least benefits in the case of war, assuming the war was
worth fighting in the first place.

However, there is nowhere enough of it going on in this fire to precipitate
a recession. It's just a little bit more lead weight on an economy that's
already taking a pasting from production for the war in Iraq.

--
Ed Huntress

Tom Gardner wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas, flood
plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother Nature
intrudes.



It seems that several of these fires were caused by arson.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Oct 23, 1:12 pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:11:52 -0700, "Stuart & Kathryn Fields"

wrote:
I'm in amazement "authorities said. Hundreds of homes were lost in the same
communityfours years ago." It seems like there is some flaw in our
education system.
Stu Fields
yet the same group that controls the educational system demands we
rebuild New Orleans at taxpayer expense......





"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Quite a fire we have burning here....
TMT
I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas,
flood plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother Nature
intrudes.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

So Gunner...when is Bush scheduled for his photo op?

You know...like in New Orleans?

TMT


Well actually the poor schmuck is a bit in a bind. If he shows up too
soon, everybody is going to say, that he did so because these home
owners are well off and white. Not like those poor black *******s in
NOLA who didn't vote for him anyway.

And if he doesn't show, he is the same old jerk again.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 02:17:23 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Steve
R." quickly quoth:

Never mind, help is on the way. British Columbia is sending the giant Martin
Mars water bombers. I have seen them working when they fought some fires

I watched a video of one of the yellow monsters (Bombadier 415s?)
sucking up water and dumping it in SoCal the other day. That's
precision flying! I think it said they're 3,500 gallons. (Wiki shows
1,620 gallons. Hmmm...)

Martin Mars carry 7,200 gallons. (THAT's more like it!)
DC-10s carry 12,000 gallons.
Russian IL-76s carry 11,000 gallons. (15k capacity)

They now working on converting old 747s for fire planes: 24,000
gallons at a drop! Those will be a heavensend to large fires like
these.

Can you imagine the stresses on airplane frames when filling and
carrying those kinds of loads? Unreal!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_firefighting

near where I live. Back in the 1960s I used to park a Cessna 150 under the
starboard wing of one, with several other light aircraft. The Mars were
being converted to water bombers at that time.

Speaking of parking things under the wings of aircraft, I'll bet this
airline isn't very popular with foreign tourists.

http://www.animalliberationfront.com.../LionPlane.htm

--
Jewish Zen:
Be here now. Be someplace else later. Is that so complicated, already?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.diversify.com - Uncomplicated Website Design, here and now.

On Oct 25, 12:12 am, " wrote:
On Oct 25, 4:06 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:



BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars.

This is the type of tipping point that can push the economy into
recession.

TMT

I would think it would push the economy the other way. Billions and
Billions of dollars spent to rebuild. Lots of jobs for carpenters,
electricians, plumbers, landscape workers, lumber mill workers and
lumber jacks. Hotels and motels filled up. Overtime money for
firefighters and other emergency workers. More fire fighting
equipment ordered.

Can't think of any reason for a recession.

Dan

I would tend to disagree.

Where will the money come from to fuel this economic activity?

Credit has all but dried up.

The people who have lost their homes and businesses do not have the
cash sitting in the bank.

The banks will not loan them money without state and federal
guarantees.

The housing report just yesterday noted a drop of 8%.

You don't build more product in a market that has an excess...unless
you want to lose money...and the banks have been dealt massive losses
already with the majority yet to come.

It was also just recently reported that the size of loans needed to
finance this activity has essentially ceased.

I think the troubles of our neighbors here in California have just
begun.

And let us not forget that the rebuilding in New Orleans is years
behind....because the promised Federal aid has not happened.

Why should California be any different?

As for a recession....better do some homework, one is coming just in
time for the 2008 election year.

And that was before this disaster in California.

TMT

On Oct 25, 2:25 am, Abrasha wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
roups.com...
Quite a fire we have burning here....

TMT

I have a bit less sympathy for people that build in wilderness areas, flood
plains or below sea level and then are surprised when Mother Nature
intrudes.

It seems that several of these fires were caused by arson.

--
Abrashahttp://www.abrasha.com

Like the ill equipped levees in New Orleans...the damage is caused by
people.

TMT

On Oct 25, 2:36 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I would tend to disagree.

Where will the money come from to fuel this economic activity?

One possibility is that people will collect insurance. Another is
that faced with loss of property, more wifes will go to work.

Credit has all but dried up.

As far as I can tell credit has not dried up. I keep getting
applications for credit cards, and the advertisements on TV still say
borrow money from DiTech. The fed lowered the discount rate recently,
so more money is available.

The people who have lost their homes and businesses do not have the
cash sitting in the bank.

The banks will not loan them money without state and federal
guarantees.

Did they have state or federal guarantees in order to borrow the money
to buy the houses before? What has changed to make federal or state
guarantees necessary now? Would a bank not loan money to someone
with a job and land to build on?
Do banks no longer require insurance on houses that they loan money
on?

The housing report just yesterday noted a drop of 8%.

You don't build more product in a market that has an excess...unless
you want to lose money...and the banks have been dealt massive losses
already with the majority yet to come.

If there was an excess of houses on the market, then this will help
eliminate the excess and therefore stimulate the economy.

It was also just recently reported that the size of loans needed to
finance this activity has essentially ceased.

I think the troubles of our neighbors here in California have just
begun.

And let us not forget that the rebuilding in New Orleans is years
behind....because the promised Federal aid has not happened.

Why should California be any different?

As for a recession....better do some homework, one is coming just in
time for the 2008 election year.


Lets see, the stock market is near all time highs, the unemployment
rate is fairly low. Nope, I see a recession a bit further in the
future even though we have had a long ride in the present boom. A
recent editorial in the WSJ predicted a recession if the Democrats
pass large increases in taxes. But Charles Rangel seems to be smarter
than that.

Dan


And that was before this disaster in California.

TMT

On Oct 25, 6:24 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

Because, despite all that work, nothing is produced. It's just a
redistribution of the income from real production elsewhere in the economy.
An economist would point out that aside from the fact that it's just
redistribution, that all of the activity actually is a net loss to the
economy, diverting manpower and other resources into a nonproductive
activity.

It's very much like the "economic activity" that goes into production for
war. There are at least benefits in the case of war, assuming the war was
worth fighting in the first place.

However, there is nowhere enough of it going on in this fire to precipitate
a recession. It's just a little bit more lead weight on an economy that's
already taking a pasting from production for the war in Iraq.

--
Ed Huntress

Hmmm, I am under the impression that the spending for WWII was the
stimulus that really brought us out of the depression.

And it is not exactly nonproductive activity. There will be an
increase in demand for building materials which will create jobs.

I am not advocating creating wars or forest fires to stimulate the
economy, but just noting that they will stimulate the economy, not
create a recession.


Dan

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 25, 6:24 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

Because, despite all that work, nothing is produced. It's just a
redistribution of the income from real production elsewhere in the
economy.
An economist would point out that aside from the fact that it's just
redistribution, that all of the activity actually is a net loss to the
economy, diverting manpower and other resources into a nonproductive
activity.

It's very much like the "economic activity" that goes into production for
war. There are at least benefits in the case of war, assuming the war was
worth fighting in the first place.

However, there is nowhere enough of it going on in this fire to
precipitate
a recession. It's just a little bit more lead weight on an economy that's
already taking a pasting from production for the war in Iraq.

--
Ed Huntress

Hmmm, I am under the impression that the spending for WWII was the
stimulus that really brought us out of the depression.

Not the spending for war material. It was the deficit spending, including
the investments made in updated manufacturing, and the debt-based income
that suddenly was in the pockets of workers producing war material. The war
material itself was a dead loss in economic terms.

Since the economy doesn't need that kind of stimulus now, and because the
stimulus now is a smaller proportion of GDP, most of what we see from war
production is the part that's a dead loss.


And it is not exactly nonproductive activity. There will be an
increase in demand for building materials which will create jobs.

But the building materials are not creating *growth* in the housing stock.
They're just replacing the stock that was burned. After the buildings are
rebuilt, there will be no net increase in the housing stock. After all of
that money and that work, we will just be back to where we were before the
fire.


I am not advocating creating wars or forest fires to stimulate the
economy, but just noting that they will stimulate the economy, not
create a recession.

If we were in a recession and needed stimulus, it might help. As it is, not.

--
Ed Huntress