My wife's 97 LeSabre custom with the 60-E trannie was making metal, so we
had it re-built (before we got stranded on the road).

Before the rebuild, it sort of "hunted" for converter lock at level-road,
steady-speed... around 50mpg. Sorta figured the rebuild would fix that.

Nope. Installed a dash tach so I could see what's happening. Confirmed
everything with a hand-held, too.

Conditions: Gentle, steady acceleration from stopped, level smooth road:
Symptoms: 1st to 2nd, firm shift.
2nd to 3rd, firm shift.
mid-range third, feel converter lock, firm engagement,
tach confirms drop in rpm.
3rd to 4th, firm shift.
Reach 50mph, RPM==1350, hold steady speed.
RPM's slowly increase over 5-10 sec. to 1550
_GENTLE_ addition of throttle receives drop in rpm to 1350
and firm feel of converter lock again.
Lift back to steady speed, rpms drift back up to 1550.

Above 62mph, lock seems to hold at steady speed.

This is just BACKWARDS from what I'd expect to see. Anybody have any
experience with the beast that can help me figure it out?

I think that "slide" out of lock is dangerous to the converter clutch.

I haven't installed lights on the shift and lock solenoids yet... guess
that's next.

(yeah, the rebuild is warranted, but this is a mental challenge, and the
shop's 40mi away)

LLoyd

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:43:18 +0000, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

My wife's 97 LeSabre custom with the 60-E trannie was making metal, so we
had it re-built (before we got stranded on the road).

Before the rebuild, it sort of "hunted" for converter lock at level-road,
steady-speed... around 50mpg. Sorta figured the rebuild would fix that.

Nope. Installed a dash tach so I could see what's happening. Confirmed
everything with a hand-held, too.

Conditions: Gentle, steady acceleration from stopped, level smooth road:
Symptoms: 1st to 2nd, firm shift.
2nd to 3rd, firm shift.
mid-range third, feel converter lock, firm engagement,
tach confirms drop in rpm.
3rd to 4th, firm shift.
Reach 50mph, RPM==1350, hold steady speed.
RPM's slowly increase over 5-10 sec. to 1550
_GENTLE_ addition of throttle receives drop in rpm to 1350
and firm feel of converter lock again.
Lift back to steady speed, rpms drift back up to 1550.

Above 62mph, lock seems to hold at steady speed.

This is just BACKWARDS from what I'd expect to see. Anybody have any
experience with the beast that can help me figure it out?

I think that "slide" out of lock is dangerous to the converter clutch.

I haven't installed lights on the shift and lock solenoids yet... guess
that's next.

(yeah, the rebuild is warranted, but this is a mental challenge, and the
shop's 40mi away)

LLoyd

I'm no expert on your tranny, but have you done the basic root cause
analysis yet? Clearly, whatever was changed by rebuilding the
transmission didn't fix your problem. Hence, I'd ask myself what _didn't_
change, and go looking for faults there.

- Converter?
- Solenoids & other actuators?
- Sensors?
- Computer? Is it grounded correctly? I have a mechanic friend who
knows squat about electronics, yet regularly fixes computer problems
just by making sure that they have all their grounds done up cleanly
and correctly (check the engine to frame ground while you're at it).
- Vacuum leak? Plugged line to sensor? Line to sensor fallen off?
Do they even use vacuum for this?
- All wires unbroken, insulation intact, connections right and tight?

As I said, this is all general diagnostic stuff, yet it almost has to be
where your problem is.

--
Tim Wescott
Control systems and communications consulting
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Need to learn how to apply control theory in your embedded system?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" by Tim Wescott
Elsevier/Newnes, http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Tim Wescott fired this volley in
:


I'm no expert on your tranny, but have you done the basic root cause
analysis yet? Clearly, whatever was changed by rebuilding the
transmission didn't fix your problem. Hence, I'd ask myself what
_didn't_ change, and go looking for faults there.

- Converter?
- Solenoids & other actuators?
- Sensors?
- Computer? Is it grounded correctly? I have a mechanic friend who
knows squat about electronics, yet regularly fixes computer problems
just by making sure that they have all their grounds done up cleanly
and correctly (check the engine to frame ground while you're at it).
- Vacuum leak? Plugged line to sensor? Line to sensor fallen off?
Do they even use vacuum for this?
- All wires unbroken, insulation intact, connections right and tight?

As I said, this is all general diagnostic stuff, yet it almost has to
be where your problem is.


Yep...done all of that, and more, and I've pretty much exhausted my
expertice in all those areas. I'm a _good_, logical trouble-shooter, but
with little knowlege of the transmission, I'm sort of working blind.

Your list of possible things replaced -- all were. I've fixed a couple
of minor vacuum leaks - no change. Yes, even with a computer, that
trannie also has a vacuum modulator.

The only way I can tell if the computer is doing this is to install an
indicator light on each of the TCC lock and TCC-PWM solenoids (and of
course, might as well do shift-A,B,&C at the same time), then watch them
during driving. It's a fairly ugly task; getting cables through the
firewall on that car is a neat trick. It did it with ONE conductor for
the tach pretty easy with the "sewing needle" trick through a grommet
wall, but a five-conductor cable will be harder.

LLoyd

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Tim Wescott fired this volley in
:



I'm no expert on your tranny, but have you done the basic root cause
analysis yet? Clearly, whatever was changed by rebuilding the
transmission didn't fix your problem. Hence, I'd ask myself what
_didn't_ change, and go looking for faults there.

- Converter?
- Solenoids & other actuators?
- Sensors?
- Computer? Is it grounded correctly? I have a mechanic friend who
knows squat about electronics, yet regularly fixes computer problems
just by making sure that they have all their grounds done up cleanly
and correctly (check the engine to frame ground while you're at it).
- Vacuum leak? Plugged line to sensor? Line to sensor fallen off?
Do they even use vacuum for this?
- All wires unbroken, insulation intact, connections right and tight?

As I said, this is all general diagnostic stuff, yet it almost has to
be where your problem is.



Yep...done all of that, and more, and I've pretty much exhausted my
expertice in all those areas. I'm a _good_, logical trouble-shooter, but
with little knowlege of the transmission, I'm sort of working blind.

Your list of possible things replaced -- all were. I've fixed a couple
of minor vacuum leaks - no change. Yes, even with a computer, that
trannie also has a vacuum modulator.

The only way I can tell if the computer is doing this is to install an
indicator light on each of the TCC lock and TCC-PWM solenoids (and of
course, might as well do shift-A,B,&C at the same time), then watch them
during driving. It's a fairly ugly task; getting cables through the
firewall on that car is a neat trick. It did it with ONE conductor for
the tach pretty easy with the "sewing needle" trick through a grommet
wall, but a five-conductor cable will be harder.

LLoyd



Lloyd, put the indicator lights in a minibox and temporarily mount the
box outside the windshield with the wires coming out the hood gap, that
is unless you plan to leave them on permanently. that way you save
yourself the hassle of trying to go through the firewall and there will
be no hole remaining when you remove them. The box could be clamped to
the lip of the hood edge with one of those "gutter mount" antenna
mounts. Did you ever find anyone to take care of the items you needed
built?

Jim Chandler

Jim Chandler fired this volley in
news:1b8Ni.3649$6Y5.325@trnddc07:

Lloyd, put the indicator lights in a minibox and temporarily mount the
box outside the windshield with the wires coming out the hood gap,
that is unless you plan to leave them on permanently.

Yep, that's the option. The tach will probably stay -- great trouble-
shooting aid, and first-alert of new problems. That's the only reason
I'm leaning toward making the shift lights part of the setup.

Did you ever find anyone to take care of the
items you needed built?

Did, indeed, Jim. One of our regulars here.

LLoyd

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Reach 50mph, RPM==1350, hold steady speed.
RPM's slowly increase over 5-10 sec. to 1550
_GENTLE_ addition of throttle receives drop in rpm to 1350
and firm feel of converter lock again.
Lift back to steady speed, rpms drift back up to 1550.

Above 62mph, lock seems to hold at steady speed.

This is just BACKWARDS from what I'd expect to see. Anybody have any
experience with the beast that can help me figure it out?

I think that "slide" out of lock is dangerous to the converter clutch.

I haven't installed lights on the shift and lock solenoids yet... guess
that's next.
There usually is a pressure test port on the transmission, where
you can rig a pressure gauge. Either use an electric pressure
sender or make DARN sure the lines are very secure and can
handle several hundred PSI of hot oil. You sure don't want
something letting go and spraying you with oil at 100+ C while
you're trying to stay on the road at 55 MPH. Some
transmissions, at least in the old hydro-mechanical days,
changed the pressure relief valve setting for different modes.
I'm not sure they do that anymore, except maybe for reverse.

I haven't had a car that did the converter lock-up in anything
but highest gear, but they are all different. And, usually the
lock-up is at about 45 MPH, after you've held steady throttle
for a few seconds.

It is also possible that this is a computer or engine sensor
problem. (Oh, yeah, the standard "Car Talk" show question "Oh,
by the way, is the Check Engine light on?")

Finally, some (maybe all) transmissions are designed with
extremely marginal grip on the clutches, to get that smooth
slide into gear. If the wrong transmission fluid is used, they
may never lock up properly when they are supposed to. I think
my wife may have killed her tranny a few years ago, when
somebody told her to add transmission fluid at a gas station.
It took a $1300 rebuild the next week. Of course, they may have
been right, the tranny was already sick, and the fluid really
had nothing to do with it. I'd guess a rebuilder would know to
put the right stuff in there.

I do agree with you that if this slipping in and out of
converter lock-up is not being commanded by the computer, then
you have a real problem. It is not as bad as another clutch
slipping, since the converter still carries some of the torque
(unless this one drains the converter on lock-up, some do) but
it is a sign something major is wrong. If it is being commanded
by the computer, it may be a quirk of the drive-train management
software, and may be fully intentional to keep the engine out of
a specific RPM range or some other oddity they wanted to do.

Jon

Jon Elson fired this volley in
:
If it is being commanded
by the computer, it may be a quirk of the drive-train management
software, and may be fully intentional to keep the engine out of
a specific RPM range or some other oddity they wanted to do.

I hadn't even considered that, but it's a good likelihood. The lights will
tell the trick.

LLoyd

A '97 anything will have fault codes stored in the PCM (that's
powertrain control module, for you white-shirt-and-tie types) for the
converter lock fault.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
My wife's 97 LeSabre custom with the 60-E trannie was making metal, so we
had it re-built (before we got stranded on the road).

Before the rebuild, it sort of "hunted" for converter lock at level-road,
steady-speed... around 50mpg. Sorta figured the rebuild would fix that.

Nope. Installed a dash tach so I could see what's happening. Confirmed
everything with a hand-held, too.

Conditions: Gentle, steady acceleration from stopped, level smooth road:
Symptoms: 1st to 2nd, firm shift.
2nd to 3rd, firm shift.
mid-range third, feel converter lock, firm engagement,
tach confirms drop in rpm.
3rd to 4th, firm shift.
Reach 50mph, RPM==1350, hold steady speed.
RPM's slowly increase over 5-10 sec. to 1550
_GENTLE_ addition of throttle receives drop in rpm to 1350
and firm feel of converter lock again.
Lift back to steady speed, rpms drift back up to 1550.

Above 62mph, lock seems to hold at steady speed.

This is just BACKWARDS from what I'd expect to see. Anybody have any
experience with the beast that can help me figure it out?

I think that "slide" out of lock is dangerous to the converter clutch.

I haven't installed lights on the shift and lock solenoids yet... guess
that's next.

(yeah, the rebuild is warranted, but this is a mental challenge, and the
shop's 40mi away)

LLoyd



--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:43:18 -0000, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

My wife's 97 LeSabre custom with the 60-E trannie was making metal, so we
had it re-built (before we got stranded on the road).

Before the rebuild, it sort of "hunted" for converter lock at level-road,
steady-speed... around 50mpg. Sorta figured the rebuild would fix that.

Nope. Installed a dash tach so I could see what's happening. Confirmed
everything with a hand-held, too.

Conditions: Gentle, steady acceleration from stopped, level smooth road:
Symptoms: 1st to 2nd, firm shift.
2nd to 3rd, firm shift.
mid-range third, feel converter lock, firm engagement,
tach confirms drop in rpm.
3rd to 4th, firm shift.
Reach 50mph, RPM==1350, hold steady speed.
RPM's slowly increase over 5-10 sec. to 1550
_GENTLE_ addition of throttle receives drop in rpm to 1350
and firm feel of converter lock again.
Lift back to steady speed, rpms drift back up to 1550.

Above 62mph, lock seems to hold at steady speed.

This is just BACKWARDS from what I'd expect to see. Anybody have any
experience with the beast that can help me figure it out?

I think that "slide" out of lock is dangerous to the converter clutch.

I haven't installed lights on the shift and lock solenoids yet... guess
that's next.

(yeah, the rebuild is warranted, but this is a mental challenge, and the
shop's 40mi away)

LLoyd

Just a wild guess. I would suspect a worn converter lockup valve bore.
Repair kits are available; reamer, sleeve and valve.

I believe a GM rebuild routinely includes this.

--Andy Asberry--
------Texas-----

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:43:18 -0000, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

I haven't installed lights on the shift and lock solenoids yet... guess
that's next.

See if you can borrow a "Professional Grade" OBD-II scanner that can
watch the real-time ECU transmission control parameters on the fly -
it may even have a transducer and readout to watch the transmission
line pressures and other stuff that can lead you to a faster
resolution. It will put up on-screen flags when the computer locks or
unlocks solenoids, so you don't have to do any hardware hacks on the
car.

And with luck being the way it is, the extra load from the
tell-tale lamps you tapped off the wiring screws up something, or
blows a chip in the ECU...

I want a Laptop based OBD-II interface if I can find one that is
done right - and that includes not charging a King's Ransom for the
inevitable periodic updates. Much less expensive than inventing and
building a display and interface system from scratch, they can invest
their energy in the software.

And I can just plug it in if there's a hiccup to ID and banish.

-- Bruce --

JR North fired this volley in
:

A '97 anything will have fault codes stored in the PCM (that's
powertrain control module, for you white-shirt-and-tie types) for the
converter lock fault.
JR

It's not throwing any codes, so the PCM thinks things are normal.
LLoyd

Bruce L. Bergman fired this volley in
:

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:43:18 -0000, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

I haven't installed lights on the shift and lock solenoids yet... guess
that's next.

See if you can borrow a "Professional Grade" OBD-II scanner that can
watch the real-time ECU transmission control parameters on the fly -
it may even have a transducer and readout to watch the transmission
line pressures and other stuff that can lead you to a faster
resolution. It will put up on-screen flags when the computer locks or
unlocks solenoids, so you don't have to do any hardware hacks on the
car.

Yeah... Mine will snapshot the ECU, but not read in real-time.


And with luck being the way it is, the extra load from the
tell-tale lamps you tapped off the wiring screws up something, or
blows a chip in the ECU...

Nah... that's not likely to happen. I have a couple of decades of
designing digital interfaces, and am pretty comfortable with fan-in/fan-
out characteristics. 'Sides... the PCM presents a simple open-ended
mosfet to ground that will sink about two amps for each solenoid control
output... pretty bullet-proof when all you're doing is monitoring its
level with a cmos gate input through a series 100kohms.


I want a Laptop based OBD-II interface if I can find one that is
done right - and that includes not charging a King's Ransom for the
inevitable periodic updates. Much less expensive than inventing and
building a display and interface system from scratch, they can invest
their energy in the software.

And I can just plug it in if there's a hiccup to ID and banish.

ID is often easier than banish. G

LLoyd

I exchanged emails with "Sinister Performance", a group of very helpful,
very tech-oriented guys.

They're not sure there is something wrong, but they're going to ask their
expert tranny hop-up guy to comment.

I talked with the rep at the chain who did my rebuild, and he says the
PWM doesn't engage with 100% duty cycle until after 65mph.

That sort of jibes with GM's literature that says they were attempting to
mask the lockup-feel on "luxury" sedans. On some 98 models, they never
completely lock up, slipping at 20-30 rpm relative to the input shaft at
all times _when_in_lock_.

Hmmmm.... mebby I'm chasing a ghost.

LLoyd

http://www.obddiagnostics.com/
JR
Dweller in the cellar



Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:43:18 -0000, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:


I haven't installed lights on the shift and lock solenoids yet... guess
that's next.


See if you can borrow a "Professional Grade" OBD-II scanner that can
watch the real-time ECU transmission control parameters on the fly -
it may even have a transducer and readout to watch the transmission
line pressures and other stuff that can lead you to a faster
resolution. It will put up on-screen flags when the computer locks or
unlocks solenoids, so you don't have to do any hardware hacks on the
car.

And with luck being the way it is, the extra load from the
tell-tale lamps you tapped off the wiring screws up something, or
blows a chip in the ECU...

I want a Laptop based OBD-II interface if I can find one that is
done right - and that includes not charging a King's Ransom for the
inevitable periodic updates. Much less expensive than inventing and
building a display and interface system from scratch, they can invest
their energy in the software.

And I can just plug it in if there's a hiccup to ID and banish.

-- Bruce --


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

Sweep test *very* carefully the TPS. This is a classic TPS sweep fault
at the speed/load you describe. Maybe for some reason the ECM doesn't
recognise the fault and code it. Should cause also some stumble, but may
not for some reason. It's a GM, after all, so anything is possible.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

My wife's 97 LeSabre custom with the 60-E trannie was making metal, so we
had it re-built (before we got stranded on the road).

Before the rebuild, it sort of "hunted" for converter lock at level-road,
steady-speed... around 50mpg. Sorta figured the rebuild would fix that.

Nope. Installed a dash tach so I could see what's happening. Confirmed
everything with a hand-held, too.

Conditions: Gentle, steady acceleration from stopped, level smooth road:
Symptoms: 1st to 2nd, firm shift.
2nd to 3rd, firm shift.
mid-range third, feel converter lock, firm engagement,
tach confirms drop in rpm.
3rd to 4th, firm shift.
Reach 50mph, RPM==1350, hold steady speed.
RPM's slowly increase over 5-10 sec. to 1550
_GENTLE_ addition of throttle receives drop in rpm to 1350
and firm feel of converter lock again.
Lift back to steady speed, rpms drift back up to 1550.

Above 62mph, lock seems to hold at steady speed.

This is just BACKWARDS from what I'd expect to see. Anybody have any
experience with the beast that can help me figure it out?

I think that "slide" out of lock is dangerous to the converter clutch.

I haven't installed lights on the shift and lock solenoids yet... guess
that's next.

(yeah, the rebuild is warranted, but this is a mental challenge, and the
shop's 40mi away)

LLoyd



--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:43:18 -0000, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

snipped a lot of detail
I haven't installed lights on the shift and lock solenoids yet... guess
that's next.

(yeah, the rebuild is warranted, but this is a mental challenge, and the
shop's 40mi away)

LLoyd

Probably old and useless info but...

My old 700R4 tranny (1982) has at least three requirements
to lock the converter. You have to be in at least 2nd gear
and a certain speed. There is an interlock switch on the
brake pedal. If the brake lights come on (shared switch) it
disengages. There is another switch on the throttle linkage.
If you don't give it enough gas or let off the throttle it
disengages.

Old stuff, but that it how mine was done. Oh one other
thing, there is a special four wheel drive switch too. If it
is in 4x4 it will only lock the torque when it is in
overdrive (4th gear) and all the other conditions are met.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
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