SteveB wrote:

Yesterday, while in Cedar City, Utah, I saw a modern Basque shepherd
shelter. For those who don't know what that is, it is a trailer for staying
in the mountains and caring for sheep. They are about 16' long or so, boxy,
except for a half circle roof. Door always in the rear. Traditionally,
they are green. This one was modern, and clad with the aluminum sheeting
just like a modern travel trailer.

My questions come from the suspension. On every one of these, I have seen
four wheels, two on each axle. Just like a toy wagon, or an old west wagon.
The front wheels are attached to a tongue, and have a tie rod turning
system, or in the old ones, just a pivot point. I'm sure there's a simple
explanation for this choice of wheels.

I have also noticed that this is about the only rig I have seen set up this
way. All the over the road trailers, except semis have wheels in the
middle. It probably has a lot to do with tracking and stability. Probably
stability at highway speeds, too. I have seen the four wheel front yoke
setup on low speed farm haulers, too, particularly hay wagons.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

Steve

That four wheel setup is a "full trailer", where the trailer wheels /
axles support the entire weight of the trailer and the draw bar only has
a pulling load.

The normal OTR rigs you see are as you note "semi trailers" where part
of the trailer weight is supported by the tow vehicle. The converter
dollies used for tandem setups convert a "semi" trailer to a "full"
trailer.

Permanent full trailers are typically low speed setups seen in farming,
mining and circus uses.

Pete C.

Yesterday, while in Cedar City, Utah, I saw a modern Basque shepherd
shelter. For those who don't know what that is, it is a trailer for staying
in the mountains and caring for sheep. They are about 16' long or so, boxy,
except for a half circle roof. Door always in the rear. Traditionally,
they are green. This one was modern, and clad with the aluminum sheeting
just like a modern travel trailer.

My questions come from the suspension. On every one of these, I have seen
four wheels, two on each axle. Just like a toy wagon, or an old west wagon.
The front wheels are attached to a tongue, and have a tie rod turning
system, or in the old ones, just a pivot point. I'm sure there's a simple
explanation for this choice of wheels.

I have also noticed that this is about the only rig I have seen set up this
way. All the over the road trailers, except semis have wheels in the
middle. It probably has a lot to do with tracking and stability. Probably
stability at highway speeds, too. I have seen the four wheel front yoke
setup on low speed farm haulers, too, particularly hay wagons.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

Steve

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

That four wheel setup is a "full trailer", where the trailer wheels /
axles support the entire weight of the trailer and the draw bar only has
a pulling load.

The normal OTR rigs you see are as you note "semi trailers" where part
of the trailer weight is supported by the tow vehicle. The converter
dollies used for tandem setups convert a "semi" trailer to a "full"
trailer.

Permanent full trailers are typically low speed setups seen in farming,
mining and circus uses.

Pete C.

Thanks for that! I have often been curious where the term "semi" came from.

Shawn

"SteveB" wrote in message
...
Yesterday, while in Cedar City, Utah, I saw a modern Basque shepherd
shelter. For those who don't know what that is, it is a trailer for
staying in the mountains and caring for sheep. They are about 16' long or
so, boxy, except for a half circle roof. Door always in the rear.
Traditionally, they are green. This one was modern, and clad with the
aluminum sheeting just like a modern travel trailer.

My questions come from the suspension. On every one of these, I have seen
four wheels, two on each axle. Just like a toy wagon, or an old west
wagon. The front wheels are attached to a tongue, and have a tie rod
turning system, or in the old ones, just a pivot point. I'm sure there's
a simple explanation for this choice of wheels.

I have also noticed that this is about the only rig I have seen set up
this way. All the over the road trailers, except semis have wheels in the
middle. It probably has a lot to do with tracking and stability.
Probably stability at highway speeds, too. I have seen the four wheel
front yoke setup on low speed farm haulers, too, particularly hay wagons.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

Steve

Hi Steve

Are you are asking about trailer design because you are thinking about
building a trailer with the axels separated by an appreciable percentage of
their width? If so, research "ackerman".
The front wheels of a two axel trailer need to *toe out* while turning to
avoid scraping or scrubbing. That can get complicated and is a good
reason to use only 1 axel on a trailer.

Jerry

"SteveB" wrote ...

Yesterday, while in Cedar City, Utah, I saw a modern Basque shepherd
shelter. For those who don't know what that is, it is a trailer for
staying in the mountains and caring for sheep. They are about 16' long
or so, boxy, except for a half circle roof. Door always in the rear.
Traditionally, they are green. This one was modern, and clad with the
aluminum sheeting just like a modern travel trailer.

My questions come from the suspension. On every one of these, I have
seen four wheels, two on each axle. Just like a toy wagon, or an old
west wagon. The front wheels are attached to a tongue, and have a tie rod
turning system, or in the old ones, just a pivot point. I'm sure there's
a simple explanation for this choice of wheels.



"Jerry Martes" wrote ...

Are you are asking about trailer design because you are thinking about
building a trailer with the axels separated by an appreciable percentage
of their width? If so, research "ackerman".
The front wheels of a two axel trailer need to *toe out* while turning to
avoid scraping or scrubbing. That can get complicated and is a good
reason to use only 1 axel on a trailer.

But a 4 wheel trailer is stable when you disconnect it from the pulling
vehicle.

--
Bill Fuhrmann

"Jerry Martes" wrote

Are you are asking about trailer design because you are thinking about
building a trailer with the axels separated by an appreciable percentage
of their width? If so, research "ackerman".
The front wheels of a two axel trailer need to *toe out* while turning to
avoid scraping or scrubbing. That can get complicated and is a good
reason to use only 1 axel on a trailer.

Jerry

Nah. I've just seen a lot of these over the years, and figured they were
the best way to go for that trailer. I would imagine this trailer would be
slow speed tow, and wheels spread out so that it could be dropped off in a
meadow with little leveling. I have seen the insides of the old ones, and
they are about as spartan as you can get. Two bunks, a table, and a small
stove. I want to see the insides of the new metal ones.

Steve

B Fuhrmann wrote:

"SteveB" wrote ...

Yesterday, while in Cedar City, Utah, I saw a modern Basque shepherd
shelter. For those who don't know what that is, it is a trailer for
staying in the mountains and caring for sheep. They are about 16' long
or so, boxy, except for a half circle roof. Door always in the rear.
Traditionally, they are green. This one was modern, and clad with the
aluminum sheeting just like a modern travel trailer.

My questions come from the suspension. On every one of these, I have
seen four wheels, two on each axle. Just like a toy wagon, or an old
west wagon. The front wheels are attached to a tongue, and have a tie rod
turning system, or in the old ones, just a pivot point. I'm sure there's
a simple explanation for this choice of wheels.

"Jerry Martes" wrote ...

Are you are asking about trailer design because you are thinking about
building a trailer with the axels separated by an appreciable percentage
of their width? If so, research "ackerman".
The front wheels of a two axel trailer need to *toe out* while turning to
avoid scraping or scrubbing. That can get complicated and is a good
reason to use only 1 axel on a trailer.

But a 4 wheel trailer is stable when you disconnect it from the pulling
vehicle.

Only if the four wheels are located at or close to the four corners of
the trailer. The typical semi trailer has four wheels (or sets since
they are duals) as well, but it sure as hell isn't stable when
disconnected from the truck and relies on the landing gear jacks for
stability.

Jerry Martes wrote:

"SteveB" wrote in message
...
Yesterday, while in Cedar City, Utah, I saw a modern Basque shepherd
shelter. For those who don't know what that is, it is a trailer for
staying in the mountains and caring for sheep. They are about 16' long or
so, boxy, except for a half circle roof. Door always in the rear.
Traditionally, they are green. This one was modern, and clad with the
aluminum sheeting just like a modern travel trailer.

My questions come from the suspension. On every one of these, I have seen
four wheels, two on each axle. Just like a toy wagon, or an old west
wagon. The front wheels are attached to a tongue, and have a tie rod
turning system, or in the old ones, just a pivot point. I'm sure there's
a simple explanation for this choice of wheels.

I have also noticed that this is about the only rig I have seen set up
this way. All the over the road trailers, except semis have wheels in the
middle. It probably has a lot to do with tracking and stability.
Probably stability at highway speeds, too. I have seen the four wheel
front yoke setup on low speed farm haulers, too, particularly hay wagons.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

Steve

Hi Steve

Are you are asking about trailer design because you are thinking about
building a trailer with the axels separated by an appreciable percentage of
their width? If so, research "ackerman".
The front wheels of a two axel trailer need to *toe out* while turning to
avoid scraping or scrubbing. That can get complicated and is a good
reason to use only 1 axel on a trailer.

Jerry

No, he's referring to a "full trailer" with axles located front and rear
and typically steerable, same geometry as a car, but without any drive
source.

SteveB wrote:

"Jerry Martes" wrote

Are you are asking about trailer design because you are thinking about
building a trailer with the axels separated by an appreciable percentage
of their width? If so, research "ackerman".
The front wheels of a two axel trailer need to *toe out* while turning to
avoid scraping or scrubbing. That can get complicated and is a good
reason to use only 1 axel on a trailer.

Jerry

Nah. I've just seen a lot of these over the years, and figured they were
the best way to go for that trailer. I would imagine this trailer would be
slow speed tow, and wheels spread out so that it could be dropped off in a
meadow with little leveling. I have seen the insides of the old ones, and
they are about as spartan as you can get. Two bunks, a table, and a small
stove. I want to see the insides of the new metal ones.

Steve

That type of trailer will require just as much leveling as any other
type, it all depends on the terrain you park it on. The main advantage
of a full trailer are it's continuous stability (connected or
unconnected assuming it has brakes), and the ability to two it with
pretty much any power source ranging from a dozer to a bunch of people
pulling on a rope.

I forgot to add that this type of trailer has been used in this
configuration for + or - 100 years now in the US. And I don't know how long
it was used in the Pyrenees before that.

Steve

SteveB wrote:

I forgot to add that this type of trailer has been used in this
configuration for + or - 100 years now in the US. And I don't know how long
it was used in the Pyrenees before that.

Steve

Yep. Last time I checked, horses didn't come with 5th wheel hitches so
you couldn't really go with a semi-trailer setup

"Shawn" shawn_75ATcomcastDOTnet wrote in message
...

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

That four wheel setup is a "full trailer", where the trailer wheels /
axles support the entire weight of the trailer and the draw bar only has
a pulling load.

The normal OTR rigs you see are as you note "semi trailers" where part
of the trailer weight is supported by the tow vehicle. The converter
dollies used for tandem setups convert a "semi" trailer to a "full"
trailer.

Permanent full trailers are typically low speed setups seen in farming,
mining and circus uses.

Pete C.

Thanks for that! I have often been curious where the term "semi" came
from.

Shawn



Actually, I believe that the word, "trailer," refers to a unit with one axel
or with several that are close enough together to act like one. When you
have wheels at the corners, the front set of which steer, the rig is
generally called a "wagon."

The word, "semi," is a contraction of semi-articulated. A fully articulated
vehicle bends in the middle but steers at both ends (think some fire engines
and large city busses...). A semi-articulated vehicle bends in the middle
but only steers at one end.

But, such terminology is always a bit dicey, since local usage may vary...

Jerry

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Jerry Martes wrote:

"SteveB" wrote in message
...
Yesterday, while in Cedar City, Utah, I saw a modern Basque shepherd
shelter. For those who don't know what that is, it is a trailer for
staying in the mountains and caring for sheep. They are about 16' long
or
so, boxy, except for a half circle roof. Door always in the rear.
Traditionally, they are green. This one was modern, and clad with the
aluminum sheeting just like a modern travel trailer.

My questions come from the suspension. On every one of these, I have
seen
four wheels, two on each axle. Just like a toy wagon, or an old west
wagon. The front wheels are attached to a tongue, and have a tie rod
turning system, or in the old ones, just a pivot point. I'm sure
there's
a simple explanation for this choice of wheels.

I have also noticed that this is about the only rig I have seen set up
this way. All the over the road trailers, except semis have wheels in
the
middle. It probably has a lot to do with tracking and stability.
Probably stability at highway speeds, too. I have seen the four wheel
front yoke setup on low speed farm haulers, too, particularly hay
wagons.

Anyone care to enlighten me?

Steve

Hi Steve

Are you are asking about trailer design because you are thinking about
building a trailer with the axels separated by an appreciable percentage
of
their width? If so, research "ackerman".
The front wheels of a two axel trailer need to *toe out* while turning
to
avoid scraping or scrubbing. That can get complicated and is a good
reason to use only 1 axel on a trailer.

Jerry

No, he's referring to a "full trailer" with axles located front and rear
and typically steerable, same geometry as a car, but without any drive
source.

Hi Pete

Judging by the responses, I suppose my "ackerman" comment isnt what people
are interested in. BUT, cars do like to have their front wheels *toe out*
while turning. The "toe out" makes the car easier to turn because the
tires dont scrub while the front wheels are turned.
I thought, maybe, the OP was considering building a trailer with two
axels, front and back. That kind of trailer sure is easier to pull (or
push) when the front wheels are *toed out*.

Jerry

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 01:42:05 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Pete
C." quickly quoth:

SteveB wrote:

I forgot to add that this type of trailer has been used in this
configuration for + or - 100 years now in the US. And I don't know how long
it was used in the Pyrenees before that.

Steve

Yep. Last time I checked, horses didn't come with 5th wheel hitches so
you couldn't really go with a semi-trailer setup

I see no reason why 4 horses couldn't be hitched up that way for a
lighter-tongue-loaded 5th wheel. They hauled 300 lb men around on
their backs and thousands of pounds of wagon loads. Where's your
blacksmithing spirit, boy?

------
We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there.

Jerry Foster wrote:

"Shawn" shawn_75ATcomcastDOTnet wrote in message
...

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

That four wheel setup is a "full trailer", where the trailer wheels /
axles support the entire weight of the trailer and the draw bar only has
a pulling load.

The normal OTR rigs you see are as you note "semi trailers" where part
of the trailer weight is supported by the tow vehicle. The converter
dollies used for tandem setups convert a "semi" trailer to a "full"
trailer.

Permanent full trailers are typically low speed setups seen in farming,
mining and circus uses.

Pete C.

Thanks for that! I have often been curious where the term "semi" came
from.

Shawn



Actually, I believe that the word, "trailer," refers to a unit with one axel
or with several that are close enough together to act like one. When you
have wheels at the corners, the front set of which steer, the rig is
generally called a "wagon."

The word, "semi," is a contraction of semi-articulated. A fully articulated
vehicle bends in the middle but steers at both ends (think some fire engines
and large city busses...). A semi-articulated vehicle bends in the middle
but only steers at one end.

But, such terminology is always a bit dicey, since local usage may vary...

Jerry

A quick search comes up with:

trailer
–noun

1. a large van or wagon drawn by an automobile, truck, or tractor, used
esp. in hauling freight by road. Compare full trailer, semitrailer.


full trailer
–noun

a trailer supported entirely by its own wheels.

semi trailer
–noun

1. Also called semi. a detachable trailer for hauling freight, with
wheels at the rear end, the forward end being supported by the rear of a
truck tractor when attached. Compare full trailer.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 01:42:05 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Pete
C." quickly quoth:

SteveB wrote:

I forgot to add that this type of trailer has been used in this
configuration for + or - 100 years now in the US. And I don't know how long
it was used in the Pyrenees before that.

Steve

Yep. Last time I checked, horses didn't come with 5th wheel hitches so
you couldn't really go with a semi-trailer setup

I see no reason why 4 horses couldn't be hitched up that way for a
lighter-tongue-loaded 5th wheel. They hauled 300 lb men around on
their backs and thousands of pounds of wagon loads. Where's your
blacksmithing spirit, boy?

------
We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there.

Where would you plug in the air brakes?

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:53:35 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Pete
C." quickly quoth:

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 01:42:05 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Pete
C." quickly quoth:

Yep. Last time I checked, horses didn't come with 5th wheel hitches so
you couldn't really go with a semi-trailer setup

I see no reason why 4 horses couldn't be hitched up that way for a
lighter-tongue-loaded 5th wheel. They hauled 300 lb men around on
their backs and thousands of pounds of wagon loads. Where's your
blacksmithing spirit, boy?


Where would you plug in the air brakes?

In parallel with the methane dollectors, of course.

------
We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:53:35 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Pete
C." quickly quoth:

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 01:42:05 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Pete
C." quickly quoth:

Yep. Last time I checked, horses didn't come with 5th wheel hitches so
you couldn't really go with a semi-trailer setup

I see no reason why 4 horses couldn't be hitched up that way for a
lighter-tongue-loaded 5th wheel. They hauled 300 lb men around on
their backs and thousands of pounds of wagon loads. Where's your
blacksmithing spirit, boy?


Where would you plug in the air brakes?

In parallel with the methane dollectors, of course.

------
We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there.

That's what I was afraid of.

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:52:04 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Jerry Foster wrote:

"Shawn" shawn_75ATcomcastDOTnet wrote in message
...

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

That four wheel setup is a "full trailer", where the trailer wheels /
axles support the entire weight of the trailer and the draw bar only has
a pulling load.

The normal OTR rigs you see are as you note "semi trailers" where part
of the trailer weight is supported by the tow vehicle. The converter
dollies used for tandem setups convert a "semi" trailer to a "full"
trailer.

Permanent full trailers are typically low speed setups seen in farming,
mining and circus uses.

Pete C.

Thanks for that! I have often been curious where the term "semi" came
from.

Shawn



Actually, I believe that the word, "trailer," refers to a unit with one axel
or with several that are close enough together to act like one. When you
have wheels at the corners, the front set of which steer, the rig is
generally called a "wagon."

The word, "semi," is a contraction of semi-articulated. A fully articulated
vehicle bends in the middle but steers at both ends (think some fire engines
and large city busses...). A semi-articulated vehicle bends in the middle
but only steers at one end.

But, such terminology is always a bit dicey, since local usage may vary...

Jerry

A quick search comes up with:

trailer
€“noun

1. a large van or wagon drawn by an automobile, truck, or tractor, used
esp. in hauling freight by road. Compare full trailer, semitrailer.


full trailer
€“noun

a trailer supported entirely by its own wheels.

semi trailer
€“noun

1. Also called semi. a detachable trailer for hauling freight, with
wheels at the rear end, the forward end being supported by the rear of a
truck tractor when attached. Compare full trailer.


Sounds British.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

clare, at, snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:52:04 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Jerry Foster wrote:

"Shawn" shawn_75ATcomcastDOTnet wrote in message
...

"Pete C." wrote in message
...

That four wheel setup is a "full trailer", where the trailer wheels /
axles support the entire weight of the trailer and the draw bar only has
a pulling load.

The normal OTR rigs you see are as you note "semi trailers" where part
of the trailer weight is supported by the tow vehicle. The converter
dollies used for tandem setups convert a "semi" trailer to a "full"
trailer.

Permanent full trailers are typically low speed setups seen in farming,
mining and circus uses.

Pete C.

Thanks for that! I have often been curious where the term "semi" came
from.

Shawn



Actually, I believe that the word, "trailer," refers to a unit with one axel
or with several that are close enough together to act like one. When you
have wheels at the corners, the front set of which steer, the rig is
generally called a "wagon."

The word, "semi," is a contraction of semi-articulated. A fully articulated
vehicle bends in the middle but steers at both ends (think some fire engines
and large city busses...). A semi-articulated vehicle bends in the middle
but only steers at one end.

But, such terminology is always a bit dicey, since local usage may vary...

Jerry

A quick search comes up with:

trailer
€“noun

1. a large van or wagon drawn by an automobile, truck, or tractor, used
esp. in hauling freight by road. Compare full trailer, semitrailer.


full trailer
€“noun

a trailer supported entirely by its own wheels.

semi trailer
€“noun

1. Also called semi. a detachable trailer for hauling freight, with
wheels at the rear end, the forward end being supported by the rear of a
truck tractor when attached. Compare full trailer.

Sounds British.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Nah, Britts has "Articulated Lorreys", Americans have "Semis".

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Pete C." wrote

Nah, Britts has "Articulated Lorreys", Americans have "Semis".

Articulated Lorrey sounds kinky to me. But then, if it were truly
articulated, it couldn't kink, could it?

Never mind.

Steve

The primary meaning of "articulated" is "capable of speech." They have
smarter trucks.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 10:21:39 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Pete C." wrote

Nah, Britts has "Articulated Lorreys", Americans have "Semis".

Articulated Lorrey sounds kinky to me. But then, if it were truly
articulated, it couldn't kink, could it?

Never mind.

Steve

ROFLMAO!!

VBG!!

Gunner

"Pete C." wrote

Nah, Britts has "Articulated Lorreys", Americans have "Semis".

Articulated Lorrey sounds kinky to me. But then, if it were truly
articulated, it couldn't kink, could it?

Never mind.

Steve

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 10:21:39 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:


"Pete C." wrote

Nah, Britts has "Articulated Lorreys", Americans have "Semis".

Articulated Lorrey sounds kinky to me. But then, if it were truly
articulated, it couldn't kink, could it?

Never mind.

Steve

ROFLMAO!!

VBG!!

Gunner

spelt LORRY actually

AWEM