Greetings Gundamentalists,
Roger's question about a primer only load has me wondering about
primer strength. In a .22 round there is not much primer. But it's job
is to ignite the powder. When using larger caliber rounds with larger
amounts of powder do primer loads increase at the same ratio? In other
words, if twice as much powder is used, is twice as much primer load
also used? Just curious really since I only shoot .22s
Thanks,
Eric

Eric R Snow wrote:

Greetings Gundamentalists,
Roger's question about a primer only load has me wondering about
primer strength. In a .22 round there is not much primer. But it's job
is to ignite the powder. When using larger caliber rounds with larger
amounts of powder do primer loads increase at the same ratio? In other
words, if twice as much powder is used, is twice as much primer load
also used? Just curious really since I only shoot .22s
Thanks,
Eric

Your .22 is a rimfire so it's a bit different in that the factory
applies the primer compound inside the shell casing vs. centerfire
calibers where the primer is a separate component assembly installed in
the shell casing. There isn't a twice the powder twice the primer type
of relationship and there are several different sizes of primers that
are used in various center fire calibers.

Pete C.

Eric,
The job of the primer is to start the fire. As the powder charge increases
in volume, the primer must also become larger, but not proportionally. Small
arms for instance use primers that feed flame through an orifice at the base
of the case. There are two physical sizes of small arms primers. They are
the same physical size for both pistol and rifle, small and large. The case
size dictates the physical primer size, but there are some wildcat
exceptions. So you have small and large pistol, small and large rifle and in
both pistol and rifle there are magnum primers, also in small and large.
Large caliber munitions, 50 Cal and above, use primer tubes that screw into
the base of the case. These primer tubes have a similar ignition cap on the
outside, but they also have a very fast pistol type powder in the tube that
the cap ignites first. When the primer charge ignites, the tube blows out in
a predictable manner through precut slits in the tube or a series of flame
holes drilled in the tube and then taped over with a cellophane tape, which
ignites the main charge. This is actually an exact science because these
ignition systems must start an adequate, consistent and common flame front
in the main charge. If , for instance, two or more separate flame fronts
were inadvertently started at the same time, the collision of the
independent flame fronts would cause a very rapid rise in pressure in the
shell, which then sends the main charge from a rapid burn mode to explosion
mode. This is called detonation and the phenomena is exactly the same as in
an automobile engine except much more violent.
Steve

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
Greetings Gundamentalists,
Roger's question about a primer only load has me wondering about
primer strength. In a .22 round there is not much primer. But it's job
is to ignite the powder. When using larger caliber rounds with larger
amounts of powder do primer loads increase at the same ratio? In other
words, if twice as much powder is used, is twice as much primer load
also used? Just curious really since I only shoot .22s
Thanks,
Eric

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:47:44 -0700, Eric R Snow
wrote:

Greetings Gundamentalists,
Roger's question about a primer only load has me wondering about
primer strength. In a .22 round there is not much primer. But it's job
is to ignite the powder. When using larger caliber rounds with larger
amounts of powder do primer loads increase at the same ratio? In other
words, if twice as much powder is used, is twice as much primer load
also used? Just curious really since I only shoot .22s
Thanks,
Eric

No. Once the fire is started..it self sustaining until all the powder
is consumed.

Only on large cases with hard to start powders are more powerful
(magnum) primers used.

Gunner

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:50:24 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

This is actually an exact science because these
ignition systems must start an adequate, consistent and common flame front
in the main charge. If , for instance, two or more separate flame fronts
were inadvertently started at the same time, the collision of the
independent flame fronts would cause a very rapid rise in pressure in the
shell, which then sends the main charge from a rapid burn mode to explosion
mode. This is called detonation and the phenomena is exactly the same as in
an automobile engine except much more violent.


In small arms...this is known as a Kaboom.

Gunner

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:50:24 +0200, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Eric,
The job of the primer is to start the fire. As the powder charge increases
in volume, the primer must also become larger, but not proportionally. Small
arms for instance use primers that feed flame through an orifice at the base
of the case. There are two physical sizes of small arms primers. They are
the same physical size for both pistol and rifle, small and large. The case
size dictates the physical primer size, but there are some wildcat
exceptions. So you have small and large pistol, small and large rifle and in
both pistol and rifle there are magnum primers, also in small and large.
Large caliber munitions, 50 Cal and above, use primer tubes that screw into
the base of the case. These primer tubes have a similar ignition cap on the
outside, but they also have a very fast pistol type powder in the tube that
the cap ignites first. When the primer charge ignites, the tube blows out in
a predictable manner through precut slits in the tube or a series of flame
holes drilled in the tube and then taped over with a cellophane tape, which
ignites the main charge. This is actually an exact science because these
ignition systems must start an adequate, consistent and common flame front
in the main charge. If , for instance, two or more separate flame fronts
were inadvertently started at the same time, the collision of the
independent flame fronts would cause a very rapid rise in pressure in the
shell, which then sends the main charge from a rapid burn mode to explosion
mode. This is called detonation and the phenomena is exactly the same as in
an automobile engine except much more violent.
Steve
Thanks Steve. A nice informatine answer.
Eric
"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
Greetings Gundamentalists,
Roger's question about a primer only load has me wondering about
primer strength. In a .22 round there is not much primer. But it's job
is to ignite the powder. When using larger caliber rounds with larger
amounts of powder do primer loads increase at the same ratio? In other
words, if twice as much powder is used, is twice as much primer load
also used? Just curious really since I only shoot .22s
Thanks,
Eric

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:47:44 -0700, Eric R Snow
wrote:

Greetings Gundamentalists,
Roger's question about a primer only load has me wondering about
primer strength. In a .22 round there is not much primer. But it's job
is to ignite the powder. When using larger caliber rounds with larger
amounts of powder do primer loads increase at the same ratio? In other
words, if twice as much powder is used, is twice as much primer load
also used? Just curious really since I only shoot .22s
Thanks,
Eric

Some good info (in addition to Steve Lusardi's excellent post) at
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=3
Note that there are also special military "hard" primers to minimize
slam-fires in some military pieces.

Caliber and cartridge determines primer size (large or small) and
choice between pistol or rifle. Choice between regular and magnum
generally depends more on choice of powder: some magnum charges
require more ignition. This has more to do with burn rate and powder
configuration (rod vs flake or ball) than amount of powder used. It's
best to stick with (or only vary slightly from) proven recipes, which
include choice of primer. For example, there are powders (e.g. W291)
that can produce unsafe pressures at LESS than recommended load
because they may detonate rather than burn briskly.

Eric R Snow wrote:
When using larger caliber rounds with larger
amounts of powder do primer loads increase at the same ratio?

Yes, there are 8 quantum leaps in primer strength for hand held
guns:http://www.chuckhawks.com/primers.htm

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:47:44 -0700, Eric R Snow
wrote:

Greetings Gundamentalists,
Roger's question about a primer only load has me wondering about
primer strength. In a .22 round there is not much primer. But it's job
is to ignite the powder. When using larger caliber rounds with larger
amounts of powder do primer loads increase at the same ratio? In other
words, if twice as much powder is used, is twice as much primer load
also used? Just curious really since I only shoot .22s
Thanks,
Eric

Depends on the caliber. An 8" howitzer uses a 30-06 blank as the
primer.


Ironhorse, AH#130, HSB#96, SENS BS#187
2001 Ultraclassic with Sidecar
96 Custom bucket of bolts (gone but not forgotten)

Republicans think every day is 4th of July
Democrats think every day is April 15th
Ronald Reagan

According to Eric R Snow :
Greetings Gundamentalists,
Roger's question about a primer only load has me wondering about
primer strength. In a .22 round there is not much primer. But it's job
is to ignite the powder. When using larger caliber rounds with larger
amounts of powder do primer loads increase at the same ratio? In other
words, if twice as much powder is used, is twice as much primer load
also used? Just curious really since I only shoot .22s

Well ... from my own reloading:

1) There are two sizes of primers (excluding Berdan) -- large
and small.

2) There are two groupings within those sizes -- pistol and rifle.
(Rifle has a harder metal cup to resist higher pressures so it
is less likely to perforate. The hammer and/or firing pin in a
rifle has more mass and a pistol is not likely to reliably fire
a rifle primer.

So far, this says nothing about the actual strength of the
primers. (Though there may be more oomph to the rifle primers.) I'm
also skipping the top-hat primers used with cap-and-ball weapons, as
they are not used in modern production equipment. However ...

3) There are regular and magnum primers. The magnums put out more
flame for a given size.

Obviously, if you let Berdan primers into the game there are
other things about which I know nothing.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:15:08 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:47:44 -0700, Eric R Snow
wrote:

Greetings Gundamentalists,
Roger's question about a primer only load has me wondering about
primer strength. In a .22 round there is not much primer. But it's job
is to ignite the powder. When using larger caliber rounds with larger
amounts of powder do primer loads increase at the same ratio? In other
words, if twice as much powder is used, is twice as much primer load
also used? Just curious really since I only shoot .22s
Thanks,
Eric

Some good info (in addition to Steve Lusardi's excellent post) at
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=3
Note that there are also special military "hard" primers to minimize
slam-fires in some military pieces.

Caliber and cartridge determines primer size (large or small) and
choice between pistol or rifle. Choice between regular and magnum
generally depends more on choice of powder: some magnum charges
require more ignition. This has more to do with burn rate and powder
configuration (rod vs flake or ball) than amount of powder used. It's
best to stick with (or only vary slightly from) proven recipes, which
include choice of primer. For example, there are powders (e.g. W291)
that can produce unsafe pressures at LESS than recommended load
because they may detonate rather than burn briskly.
Thanks for the info Don. I just get curious about things and RCM seems
to always come through. Even for the more esoteric questions.
Eric

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
Greetings Gundamentalists,
Roger's question about a primer only load has me wondering about
primer strength. In a .22 round there is not much primer. But it's job
is to ignite the powder. When using larger caliber rounds with larger
amounts of powder do primer loads increase at the same ratio? In other
words, if twice as much powder is used, is twice as much primer load
also used? Just curious really since I only shoot .22s
Thanks,
Eric

And now I wonder if the original BB caps had an extra dab of primer. As
stated in the article I finally quoted,
http://www.chuckhawks.com/history_rimfire_ammo.htm
they only used primer to shoot the lead, and these were used in shooting
galleries. We used to use them to shoot rats in my cousin's pigeon coop at
night. I think most everyone had a box of them around to dispatch pesky
rodents and birds when they didn't want a loud sound or the bullet to travel
very far.

Steve