On 11 Jun 2004 17:37:17 -0700, (Dan
Thomas) wrote:

"Peter Reilley" wrote in message ...
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...

Was
there a preferred direction for Archimedes screw?

Pete.

It would depend on which shore of the river the screw was built on.

Why do we skate counterclockwise around the rink?

Dan
We skate CCW around the rink because we "keep right"
Why do we "keep right?"
Who knows.

In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote:
wrote:

[ ... ]

It would be interesting to find out what percentage of all installed
threaded fasteners are ever again deliberately loosened.

I'd but my money on it being less than 1% of them. And, considering that
probably more that 95% of fasteners are currently being tightened by
machines and not hands, in our mass production world, your argument is
reasonable, but probably moot.

Hmm ... in normal maintenance of my computers, perhaps 1/4 of
the screws present ever get removed. (Actually, it would be less, if it
were not for my recent replacement of a CPU fan in an ULTRASparc 1/140.
There were all of five screws just to remove the fan. The normal access
to the top of the CPU box involves two or three screws (depending on
whether the security cable bracket is still with the computer or not).
Two more remove the entire CPU board. When I replace disk drives, I
usually don't have spares already mounted in the "spud" (slide-in
mounting bracket), so that is four or six screws per drive, with two
drives.

However -- once a disk dies, *lots* of screws come out, to gain
access to the super magnets, and to the tiny ball bearing assemblies.
(Lots of exercise for the tiny torx screwdriver bits). (I also use the
platters for decoration, sometimes.)

In contrast, when someone is doing a full restoration on an old
lathe, I'm willing to bet that at least 90% of those screws are at least
loosened, if not totally removed.

Now for something a bit closer in time to when industrial
production of screws started.

When working on an English system concertina, (let's assume a
six-sided one for starters), there are twelve screws (six on a side)
which secure the endboxes to the bellows frames. At least six of those
come out for almost any job on the instrument. Two more (on each end)
hold the endbox together, and they have to come out for work on the
action or the valves. Four more (on each end) hold the little finger
rest and the thumbstrap in place, and while the little finger rest
seldom needs replacing, the thumbstrap is usually the first thing to
wear out. O.K. -- so far we have 24 screw here, of which all but four
will come out during the life of the instrument.

But -- inside the bellows are two reedpans, each containing 48
reed carriers. Each reed carrier has two screws securing the reed (via
a clamping bar) to the carrier. Only a *fool* takes any of those screws
out, unless the reed is rusted away and needs replacement -- and by
preference, unless you are a glutton for punishment, you replace the
reed and carrier as a unit. This makes 192 screws which you might as
well consider to be rivets. And this design has been pretty much
unchanged since about 1829 or so. (At one period, near the beginning of
the 1900s, the reeds were actually riveted to the carrier, but that did
not last (though some of the instruments did. I own one of those.)

Oh yes -- there are also two wood screws securing each
rectangular brass plate into which the endbox screws thread -- 24 more
for the normally untouched -- even in an extremely old instrument. That
makes 220 which normally are never touched once installed, compared to
20 which will be regularly removed. So -- about 91% of the screws
should be expected to be permanent.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Scott Moore writes:

Most people are right-handed. More torque from a screwdriver
tightening in that direction.

Which is, of course, wrong. More torque *available* to untighten than
to tighten. I allways use a bigger wrench to loosen pipes than tighten
them.

Enough opinion. Try it on a torque meter and let us know what you find.

DoN. Nichols wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

wrote:


[ ... ]


It would be interesting to find out what percentage of all installed
threaded fasteners are ever again deliberately loosened.

I'd but my money on it being less than 1% of them. And, considering that
probably more that 95% of fasteners are currently being tightened by
machines and not hands, in our mass production world, your argument is
reasonable, but probably moot.


Hmm ... in normal maintenance of my computers, perhaps 1/4 of
the screws present ever get removed. (Actually, it would be less, if it
were not for my recent replacement of a CPU fan in an ULTRASparc 1/140.
There were all of five screws just to remove the fan. The normal access
to the top of the CPU box involves two or three screws (depending on
whether the security cable bracket is still with the computer or not).
Two more remove the entire CPU board. When I replace disk drives, I
usually don't have spares already mounted in the "spud" (slide-in
mounting bracket), so that is four or six screws per drive, with two
drives.

However -- once a disk dies, *lots* of screws come out, to gain
access to the super magnets, and to the tiny ball bearing assemblies.
(Lots of exercise for the tiny torx screwdriver bits). (I also use the
platters for decoration, sometimes.)

In contrast, when someone is doing a full restoration on an old
lathe, I'm willing to bet that at least 90% of those screws are at least
loosened, if not totally removed.

Now for something a bit closer in time to when industrial
production of screws started.

When working on an English system concertina, (let's assume a
six-sided one for starters), there are twelve screws (six on a side)
which secure the endboxes to the bellows frames. At least six of those
come out for almost any job on the instrument. Two more (on each end)
hold the endbox together, and they have to come out for work on the
action or the valves. Four more (on each end) hold the little finger
rest and the thumbstrap in place, and while the little finger rest
seldom needs replacing, the thumbstrap is usually the first thing to
wear out. O.K. -- so far we have 24 screw here, of which all but four
will come out during the life of the instrument.

But -- inside the bellows are two reedpans, each containing 48
reed carriers. Each reed carrier has two screws securing the reed (via
a clamping bar) to the carrier. Only a *fool* takes any of those screws
out, unless the reed is rusted away and needs replacement -- and by
preference, unless you are a glutton for punishment, you replace the
reed and carrier as a unit. This makes 192 screws which you might as
well consider to be rivets. And this design has been pretty much
unchanged since about 1829 or so. (At one period, near the beginning of
the 1900s, the reeds were actually riveted to the carrier, but that did
not last (though some of the instruments did. I own one of those.)

Oh yes -- there are also two wood screws securing each
rectangular brass plate into which the endbox screws thread -- 24 more
for the normally untouched -- even in an extremely old instrument. That
makes 220 which normally are never touched once installed, compared to
20 which will be regularly removed. So -- about 91% of the screws
should be expected to be permanent.

Enjoy,
DoN.

I'm probably on your side of the river when it come to taking failed
stuff apart to see what could be scrounged for the "hell box" and
possibly reused somedday.

But I'm sure even you'd admit that we're a minute minority and more
likely the average consumer appliance, car, piece of furniture, or even
a house's deck which was built using threaded fasteners (like mine)
probably ends its life with very small percentage, if any, of its
threaded fasteners ever loosened.

Jeff
--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote:


DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

However -- once a disk dies, *lots* of screws come out, to gain
access to the super magnets, and to the tiny ball bearing assemblies.
(Lots of exercise for the tiny torx screwdriver bits). (I also use the
platters for decoration, sometimes.)

[ ... ]

I'm probably on your side of the river when it come to taking failed
stuff apart to see what could be scrounged for the "hell box" and
possibly reused somedday.

But I'm sure even you'd admit that we're a minute minority and more
likely the average consumer appliance, car, piece of furniture, or even
a house's deck which was built using threaded fasteners (like mine)
probably ends its life with very small percentage, if any, of its
threaded fasteners ever loosened.

Most appliances would never be taken apart, as the philosophy
appears to be "replace, don't repair".

But for an automobile, we can at least expect:

1) Hub nuts -- at least for checking brakes at the annual
safety inspection.

2) Rocker cover nuts -- for access to allow scheduled maintenance.

3) Head nuts -- normally loosened and re-torqued after some specified
number of miles of operation.

4) Whatever screws (if any) are needed for access to air filter to
replace it.

5) On 4WD vehicles, the bolds holding the skid plates on the
bottom of the engine compartment, to allow draining and changing
of oil and access to oil filter.

6) The bolts securing the battery and its cable clamp bolts.

7) With electronic ignition, we can now eliminate the screws
securing the points in the distributor. :-)

The rest of them probably are untouched in most vehicles -- at
least through the original owner's possession.

And for the furniture -- I have taken apart used computer
furniture, to transport it home and reassemble it. But I would guess
that I am the exception there, as well.

For the concertinas which I used as an example of things
designed in the 1830s and later, I have worked on a relatively large
number of those over the past thirty years.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:



For the concertinas which I used as an example of things
designed in the 1830s and later, I have worked on a relatively large
number of those over the past thirty years.

Enjoy,
DoN.


I'm with you there too, I used to hobby restore reproducing player
pianos and nickleodeons about 30 years ago.

Talk about taking apart things which have more screws than a XXX movie!! G

Plus, the seemingly never ending task of stripping down, cleaning and
recovering 88 identical little bellows like "pnuematics" and their
associated 88 piloted valves. (Those were the vacuum operated actuators
which "struck" the piano keys when they sucked closed under the command
of the holes in the paper music roll.)

Jeff

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

DoN. Nichols wrote:

For the concertinas which I used as an example of things
designed in the 1830s and later, I have worked on a relatively large
number of those over the past thirty years.

I'm with you there too, I used to hobby restore reproducing player
pianos and nickleodeons about 30 years ago.

Talk about taking apart things which have more screws than a XXX movie!! G

:-)

Have you ever seen a Tanzbar (Dancing Bear) concertina? They
were player versions of the Chemnitzer (big square) concertinas, with
the roll inside the right-hand end.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article ,
says...
Scott Moore writes:

Most people are right-handed. More torque from a screwdriver
tightening in that direction.

Which is, of course, wrong. More torque *available* to untighten than
to tighten. I allways use a bigger wrench to loosen pipes than tighten
them.

Enough opinion. Try it on a torque meter and let us know what you find.


The human factors folks have already done the work.
According to "Human Engineering Guide to Equipment Design",
a right handed person can exert considerably more torque
(about 30%) in the CCW direction.

Ned Simmons

In article ,
says...


DoN. Nichols wrote:



For the concertinas which I used as an example of things
designed in the 1830s and later, I have worked on a relatively large
number of those over the past thirty years.

Enjoy,
DoN.


I'm with you there too, I used to hobby restore reproducing player
pianos and nickleodeons about 30 years ago.

Talk about taking apart things which have more screws than a XXX movie!! G

Plus, the seemingly never ending task of stripping down, cleaning and
recovering 88 identical little bellows like "pnuematics" and their
associated 88 piloted valves. (Those were the vacuum operated actuators
which "struck" the piano keys when they sucked closed under the command
of the holes in the paper music roll.)


Ever run into Bob Hunt from Kennebunk ME? He's been doing
much the same thing as a hobby for many years. I've heard
him refer to a meticulous rebuild as a "polished screw
restoration". Implying, with a bit of exaggeration I
suppose, that every screw was removed and cleaned up.

Ned Simmons

DoN. Nichols wrote:


Have you ever seen a Tanzbar (Dancing Bear) concertina? They
were player versions of the Chemnitzer (big square) concertinas, with
the roll inside the right-hand end.

Enjoy,
DoN.

I've read about them, but never held one in my hands.

I do still have a 19th century "Mechanical Organette", a hand cranked
tabletop paper roll operated reed organ. Sounds a bit like an concertina.

Jeff

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

Ned Simmons wrote:



Ever run into Bob Hunt from Kennebunk ME? He's been doing
much the same thing as a hobby for many years. I've heard
him refer to a meticulous rebuild as a "polished screw
restoration". Implying, with a bit of exaggeration I
suppose, that every screw was removed and cleaned up.

Ned Simmons

Never had the pleasure of meeting him. But, I stopped being active in
that hobby about 30 years ago.

I've still got one rather nice Ampico reproducing piano and about 500
rolls for it, including some about a hundred years old now, recorded by
Rachmaninoff. Yes, they had "recording pianos" back then, but just as
with today's recording studios, there was a lot of editing done after
the original recording was made.

Jeff

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

DoN. Nichols wrote:

Have you ever seen a Tanzbar (Dancing Bear) concertina? They

[ ... ]

I've read about them, but never held one in my hands.

Ditto. I've seen them come up on eBay -- but not at prices
where I felt like playing.

I do still have a 19th century "Mechanical Organette", a hand cranked
tabletop paper roll operated reed organ. Sounds a bit like an concertina.

Possibly even concertina reeds in it.

I've even seen a barrel organ (drum with brass tack heads
(OB-Metal) raising levers to select notes) with a few tiny wood pipes
like from organs. The rectangular ones with a sliding plug in the end
to do the fine tuning. These were the sorts of things that an organ
grinder (with monkey) would have used, with a single leg to support it,
plus a strap around the player's neck.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

I've still got one rather nice Ampico reproducing piano and about 500
rolls for it, including some about a hundred years old now, recorded by
Rachmaninoff. Yes, they had "recording pianos" back then, but just as
with today's recording studios, there was a lot of editing done after
the original recording was made.

With paper pasted over the wrong holes and then new ones
punched? I presume that they also had devices which would duplicate the
rolls once they got them right -- for production.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article ,
says...


Ned Simmons wrote:



Ever run into Bob Hunt from Kennebunk ME? He's been doing
much the same thing as a hobby for many years. I've heard
him refer to a meticulous rebuild as a "polished screw
restoration". Implying, with a bit of exaggeration I
suppose, that every screw was removed and cleaned up.

Ned Simmons

Never had the pleasure of meeting him. But, I stopped being active in
that hobby about 30 years ago.

I've still got one rather nice Ampico reproducing piano and about 500
rolls for it, including some about a hundred years old now, recorded by
Rachmaninoff. Yes, they had "recording pianos" back then, but just as
with today's recording studios, there was a lot of editing done after
the original recording was made.

Jeff


I think Bob was probably around then. I've known him for 20
yrs and he's been at it all that time. He's apparently
pretty well know these days. My brother, who graduated from
the North Bennet Street School piano tech program, heard of
him as the go-to guy for certain instruments.

He has a reproducing piano as well. An Aeolian I think?

Ned Simmons

DoN. Nichols wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Wisnia wrote:


I've still got one rather nice Ampico reproducing piano and about 500
rolls for it, including some about a hundred years old now, recorded by
Rachmaninoff. Yes, they had "recording pianos" back then, but just as
with today's recording studios, there was a lot of editing done after
the original recording was made.


With paper pasted over the wrong holes and then new ones
punched?

A lot of piano rolls weren't "recorded" at all, they were hand punched
by skilled guys working from the sheet music, and then tweaked as required.

The "recording pianos" I'm familiar with used electric switches under
the piano keys conrolling electromagnets which pushed felt tipped pens
down onto a moving roll of paper, one pen for each piano hey. Then
someone hand punched through the pen markings.

But, much of the editing of reproducing piano rolls was fiddling around
to get the expression correct. "Expression" is the intensity with which
the notes are struck.

A garden variety player piano (and its rolls) only knows how to control
the note placement vs. time and the soft and sustaining pedal operation.

A reproducing piano used additional tracks on the roll containing coded
expression information. Not sophisticated enough to control the
expression of each individual key, but pretty good nonetheless. They
split the keyboard in the middle and controlled the intensity of the
notes in each half separately, by changing the setpoint of two vacuum
regulators feeding the key actuators for each section.


I presume that they also had devices which would duplicate the
rolls once they got them right -- for production.

Yes, they were called, not unsuprisingly, piano roll perforating
machines. They were controlled by "master rolls", which were usually
somewhat larger than the finished piano roll, and made from much heavier
and more durable paper.

Dedicated hobbyists of the kind found here on rcm have built there own
"duplicating perforators" to make copies of old rolls, akin to making
tape recordings or burning CDs from fragile old shellac phonograph
records. I visited a guy in england once who'd assembled a tabletop
sized one of those perforators in the second floor bedroom of his home.

Jeff
--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

It being a dull day, I decide to respond to what Gunner
fosted Thu, 10 Jun 2004 06:05:38 GMT on
rec.crafts.metalworking , viz:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:43:54 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"Peter Reilley" wrote:

snipped


Well you have piqued my interest, so let me have it!

Pete.




I'll second that motion


Well, ok...But remember, only 'cause you asked. I don't want too much
more evidence of my refusal to ever grow up geting around...

Here they are. Three versions; One more than I promised:

************************************

A distorted young fellow named Fred
Had a tool with a corkscrew-shaped head.
He found, having hunted,
A girl similarly-****ed,
But - alas! - with a left-handed thread.

************************************

The cock of a fellow named Fred
Was adorned with a spiralized head.
When at last he laid eyes,
On a **** the right size,
He was foiled by a left-handed thread!

************************************

His cock like a corkscrew expanded,
A spiral vagina demanded.
His search lasted years.
And ended in tears;
The thread of her **** was left-handed.

***********************************

Jeff
Here lies the bones of Screwy Dick,
He spent his whole life with a corkscrew prick,
He searched and he searched in the feudal hunt,
To find the woman with the corkscrew ****.
He finally found her and then dropped dead,
The son-of-a-bitch had a left hand thread.

On the bridge spanning the ravine
Archibald was screwing Kathleen
The force of his lunge
Caused the whole thing to plunge
Worse ****ing disaster ever seen.




"A vote for Kerry is a de facto vote for bin Laden."
Strider

--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

It being a dull day, I decide to respond to what
fosted Sat, 12 Jun 2004 02:26:53 GMT on
rec.crafts.metalworking , viz:
On 11 Jun 2004 17:37:17 -0700, (Dan
Thomas) wrote:
"Peter Reilley" wrote
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote
Was there a preferred direction for Archimedes screw?

Pete.

It would depend on which shore of the river the screw was built on.

Why do we skate counterclockwise around the rink?

Dan
We skate CCW around the rink because we "keep right"
Why do we "keep right?"
Who knows.

"Shield on the left arm, sword in the right hand", is one explanation.
(I have heard of one castle in Scotland, with the hereditary lords of the
castle being left handed, where the stairs spiral up "backwards", thus
giving the "natives" an advantage if it ever came to defense.)

the other explanation is a "handedness" in leg use, with most people
favoring the right leg for pushing off/power strokes, be it walking,
peddling, or skating. I dunno, but it sounds plausible.

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

I would guess, because when using your right hand, it's easier to torque
tight to the right, then it is to the left.

something I learned awhile ago.. sugar is right handed. but it's possible to
artifically grow left handed sugar.
Left handed sugar tastes *funky*, and is harder to digest..



--
**********
shu

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
It being a dull day, I decide to respond to what
fosted Sat, 12 Jun 2004 02:26:53 GMT on
rec.crafts.metalworking , viz:
On 11 Jun 2004 17:37:17 -0700, (Dan
Thomas) wrote:
"Peter Reilley" wrote
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote
Was there a preferred direction for Archimedes screw?

Pete.

It would depend on which shore of the river the screw was built on.

Why do we skate counterclockwise around the rink?

Dan
We skate CCW around the rink because we "keep right"
Why do we "keep right?"
Who knows.

"Shield on the left arm, sword in the right hand", is one explanation.
(I have heard of one castle in Scotland, with the hereditary lords of the
castle being left handed, where the stairs spiral up "backwards", thus
giving the "natives" an advantage if it ever came to defense.)

the other explanation is a "handedness" in leg use, with most people
favoring the right leg for pushing off/power strokes, be it walking,
peddling, or skating. I dunno, but it sounds plausible.

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."