Hello, all,

I'm still learning the fine art of TIG welding, but making
progress. I'm doing the first real project, a table for
a 24 x 36" surface plate. I'm using 2.5" OD steel pipe,
"electric resistance welded, drawn over mandrel" and
steel angle. The pipe looks almost like it was chromed,
but did have a hint of rust on it, but I have no clue as
to alloy. The angle I'm using is hot rolled, but other than
that, no clue to alloy, either. I'm having a HELL of a time
keeping the electrode clean. It gets something, I assume steel
contamination all over it, heavy up to the cup, and light all
the way up to the collet, in just a few minutes of welding.

Once it is contaminated, it starts popping sometimes almost like
an oxy-acetylene flame, really loud popping about 4 times a
second. This popping, if I allow it to continue, causes
my Lincoln Square Wave 300 welder to shut down. At first I
thought the popping was a problem in the welder, and it was
shutting down due to some fault in the current control.
But, after studying the manual and what was happening, I'm
coming to the conclusion that the popping is driving the
current control nuts, and it causes the excessive open-circuit
protection interlock to trip. Another nasty thing it does
is the arc starts climbing up the electrode until the arc
is flowing from somewhere way up inside the cup, instead of
off the tip of the electrode!

I can only keep the electrode clean for 15 seconds or so, then
stuff starts spattering onto the electrode, I think. Sometimes
I touch the electrode to the metal, but that contamination
burns off after a few seconds, it seems.

Has anyone had this sort of trouble before? I'm using DC
Electrode negative, HF on start, and about 250 A max on a
1/8 inch EWP electrode. (I have a box of Thorium electrodes
around here, but I can't find them right now.) I'm running
about 15 CFH or pure Argon, and have tried both size 8 and
size 5 cups.

I thought my torch had gas lenses in it, but I now have
discovered that is does not have them. I'll have to get some
next time I'm at the welding store.

And, that may be soon, as I seem to be going through Argon at
a frightening rate! I had no idea the Argon was going to be
the most expensive consumable in this TIG welding stuff! I got
half off for my first fill, but they tell me it will be about $40
for the next fill of an 80 Cu Ft tank!

Thanks much in advance for any comments!

Jon

In article , Jon Elson
wrote:

Hello, all,

I'm still learning the fine art of TIG welding, but making
progress. I'm doing the first real project, a table for
a 24 x 36" surface plate. I'm using 2.5" OD steel pipe,
"electric resistance welded, drawn over mandrel" and
steel angle. The pipe looks almost like it was chromed,
but did have a hint of rust on it, but I have no clue as
to alloy. The angle I'm using is hot rolled, but other than
that, no clue to alloy, either. I'm having a HELL of a time
keeping the electrode clean. It gets something, I assume steel
contamination all over it, heavy up to the cup, and light all
the way up to the collet, in just a few minutes of welding.


Are you trying to weld through the oxides on the hot rolled angle?
You can't.
You have to grind off any oxides.
TIG requires clean metal.
No oxides, paint, rust, oil, plating, or dirt.



Once it is contaminated, it starts popping sometimes almost like
an oxy-acetylene flame, really loud popping about 4 times a
second. This popping, if I allow it to continue, causes
my Lincoln Square Wave 300 welder to shut down. At first I
thought the popping was a problem in the welder, and it was
shutting down due to some fault in the current control.
But, after studying the manual and what was happening, I'm
coming to the conclusion that the popping is driving the
current control nuts, and it causes the excessive open-circuit
protection interlock to trip. Another nasty thing it does
is the arc starts climbing up the electrode until the arc
is flowing from somewhere way up inside the cup, instead of
off the tip of the electrode!

I can only keep the electrode clean for 15 seconds or so, then
stuff starts spattering onto the electrode, I think. Sometimes
I touch the electrode to the metal, but that contamination
burns off after a few seconds, it seems.

Has anyone had this sort of trouble before? I'm using DC
Electrode negative, HF on start, and about 250 A max on a
1/8 inch EWP electrode. (I have a box of Thorium electrodes
around here, but I can't find them right now.) I'm running
about 15 CFH or pure Argon, and have tried both size 8 and
size 5 cups.


Oh, so you are trying to use pure tungstens on DCEN.
No wonder your arc is going nuts.
Use Thoriated tungstens at least, but even better are Lanthanted
tungstens.
They work on AC or DCEN.

Thoriated work on DCEN, but are bad on AC.
Pures just suck, but they suck even worse on DCEN.


Get yourself some Lanthanted tungstens and never worry about what
tungsten you are using ever again.




I thought my torch had gas lenses in it, but I now have
discovered that is does not have them. I'll have to get some
next time I'm at the welding store.

And, that may be soon, as I seem to be going through Argon at
a frightening rate! I had no idea the Argon was going to be
the most expensive consumable in this TIG welding stuff! I got
half off for my first fill, but they tell me it will be about $40
for the next fill of an 80 Cu Ft tank!

Thanks much in advance for any comments!

Jon



Check your system for leaks.
Get yourself a small spray bottle, fill it with water and 1 tablespoon
of dish soap.
Spritz the soapy water on all your gas connections to find leaks.
Just look for the bubbles.

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:
In article , Jon Elson
wrote:


Hello, all,

I'm still learning the fine art of TIG welding, but making
progress. I'm doing the first real project, a table for
a 24 x 36" surface plate. I'm using 2.5" OD steel pipe,
"electric resistance welded, drawn over mandrel" and
steel angle. The pipe looks almost like it was chromed,
but did have a hint of rust on it, but I have no clue as
to alloy. The angle I'm using is hot rolled, but other than
that, no clue to alloy, either. I'm having a HELL of a time
keeping the electrode clean. It gets something, I assume steel
contamination all over it, heavy up to the cup, and light all
the way up to the collet, in just a few minutes of welding.



Are you trying to weld through the oxides on the hot rolled angle?
You can't.
You have to grind off any oxides.
TIG requires clean metal.
No oxides, paint, rust, oil, plating, or dirt.


Right, I know that. I do grind the area within about 1/2" of the
weld. On the pipe, it is so smooth and clean, I tried a wire wheel
and just using solvent, and don't see any difference.




Oh, so you are trying to use pure tungstens on DCEN.
No wonder your arc is going nuts.
Use Thoriated tungstens at least, but even better are Lanthanted
tungstens.
They work on AC or DCEN.

Thoriated work on DCEN, but are bad on AC.
Pures just suck, but they suck even worse on DCEN.

OK, thanks. I go bad advice from the guy at the welding store and
haven't gotten back for some different electrodes.


Get yourself some Lanthanted tungstens and never worry about what
tungsten you are using ever again.

Thanks! I have a pack of Thoriated elecrodes somewhere around here, but
I'll get some Lanthanated ones as soon as I can.

But, in this particular work, I get contamination all the way up
the electrode. Something in there, I'm guessing the hot rolled, is
making sparks - just like from a grinder. I'm pretty sure it isn't the
pipe or the filler metal (ER70S). Is this a problem with insufficient
shielding gas, or is this particular material just going to spit sparks?


Check your system for leaks.
Get yourself a small spray bottle, fill it with water and 1 tablespoon
of dish soap.
Spritz the soapy water on all your gas connections to find leaks.
Just look for the bubbles.

I'm pretty sure there are no leaks, now. Of course, the welder was a BIG
"leak" as it left the gas valve open all the time. That is now fixed.

Thanks much for all the help! I am actually getting good welds now in
this mixed steel job, and really getting a good feel for controlling the
arc and melt pool.

Jon

In article , Jon Elson
wrote:

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:
In article , Jon Elson
wrote:


Hello, all,

I'm still learning the fine art of TIG welding, but making
progress. I'm doing the first real project, a table for
a 24 x 36" surface plate. I'm using 2.5" OD steel pipe,
"electric resistance welded, drawn over mandrel" and
steel angle. The pipe looks almost like it was chromed,
but did have a hint of rust on it, but I have no clue as
to alloy. The angle I'm using is hot rolled, but other than
that, no clue to alloy, either. I'm having a HELL of a time
keeping the electrode clean. It gets something, I assume steel
contamination all over it, heavy up to the cup, and light all
the way up to the collet, in just a few minutes of welding.



Are you trying to weld through the oxides on the hot rolled angle?
You can't.
You have to grind off any oxides.
TIG requires clean metal.
No oxides, paint, rust, oil, plating, or dirt.


Right, I know that. I do grind the area within about 1/2" of the
weld. On the pipe, it is so smooth and clean, I tried a wire wheel
and just using solvent, and don't see any difference.




Oh, so you are trying to use pure tungstens on DCEN.
No wonder your arc is going nuts.
Use Thoriated tungstens at least, but even better are Lanthanted
tungstens.
They work on AC or DCEN.

Thoriated work on DCEN, but are bad on AC.
Pures just suck, but they suck even worse on DCEN.

OK, thanks. I go bad advice from the guy at the welding store and
haven't gotten back for some different electrodes.


Get yourself some Lanthanted tungstens and never worry about what
tungsten you are using ever again.

Thanks! I have a pack of Thoriated elecrodes somewhere around here, but
I'll get some Lanthanated ones as soon as I can.

But, in this particular work, I get contamination all the way up
the electrode. Something in there, I'm guessing the hot rolled, is
making sparks - just like from a grinder. I'm pretty sure it isn't the
pipe or the filler metal (ER70S). Is this a problem with insufficient
shielding gas, or is this particular material just going to spit sparks?


Check your system for leaks.
Get yourself a small spray bottle, fill it with water and 1 tablespoon
of dish soap.
Spritz the soapy water on all your gas connections to find leaks.
Just look for the bubbles.

I'm pretty sure there are no leaks, now. Of course, the welder was a BIG
"leak" as it left the gas valve open all the time. That is now fixed.

Thanks much for all the help! I am actually getting good welds now in
this mixed steel job, and really getting a good feel for controlling the
arc and melt pool.

Jon



You should try some stainless steel filler rod on your steel welds to
see if they settle down.
Stainless can deal with more contaminated materiel.
The nickle and chrome help it flow in nicely.

From: Jon Elson

Sometimes
I touch the electrode to the metal, but that contamination
burns off after a few seconds, it seems.

In addition to what Ernie has said I would advise you to not continue welding
after you contaminate the electrode. Stop, clean it, resharpen it and then go
back to work. You can get an accumulation of metal deposited on the inside of
the cup that boils off the electrode when you continue welding after you
contaminate the tip.

Richard Coke

Ernie aka, "The Man", wisely advised.................

You should try some stainless steel filler rod on your steel welds to
see if they settle down.
Stainless can deal with more contaminated materiel.
The nickle and chrome help it flow in nicely.


Ernie,

Could he possibly be heating the metal past its melting point and causing
it to boil? I have been guilty of this before, especially using 2 different
thicknesses of metal.

Regards,
Jim

PS Ernie, I have to eat a little crow regarding a comment I made in a post
a week or so ago. I questioned your advice on using Zirc. tungsten for
Alum. I was having problems with the arc being very unstable and the
tungsten was getting corroded badly. Come to find out, the cup had a small
amount of Alum. slag stuck to the inside of it. It didn't seem to bother
the pure tungsten, but was playing hell with the Zirc. Changed the cup out,
no more problems.
So, do I get some salt to go with the crow, or is that not on my diet plan
either?? 8)

JR

In article , Jim C Roberts wrote:

Ernie aka, "The Man", wisely advised.................

You should try some stainless steel filler rod on your steel welds to
see if they settle down.
Stainless can deal with more contaminated materiel.
The nickle and chrome help it flow in nicely.


Ernie,

Could he possibly be heating the metal past its melting point and causing
it to boil? I have been guilty of this before, especially using 2 different
thicknesses of metal.

Regards,
Jim


You can boil the steel all you want as long as it is shielded by Argon.



PS Ernie, I have to eat a little crow regarding a comment I made in a post
a week or so ago. I questioned your advice on using Zirc. tungsten for
Alum. I was having problems with the arc being very unstable and the
tungsten was getting corroded badly. Come to find out, the cup had a small
amount of Alum. slag stuck to the inside of it. It didn't seem to bother
the pure tungsten, but was playing hell with the Zirc. Changed the cup out,
no more problems.
So, do I get some salt to go with the crow, or is that not on my diet plan
either?? 8)

JR

I have eaten enough myself for it to qualify in my low-carb diet.

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:
In article , Jim C Roberts wrote:


Ernie aka, "The Man", wisely advised.................


You should try some stainless steel filler rod on your steel welds to
see if they settle down.
Stainless can deal with more contaminated materiel.
The nickle and chrome help it flow in nicely.


Ernie,

Could he possibly be heating the metal past its melting point and causing
it to boil? I have been guilty of this before, especially using 2 different
thicknesses of metal.

Regards,
Jim



You can boil the steel all you want as long as it is shielded by Argon.

OK, then either my torch without the gas lenses is not properly
covering the weld area, or there is something like oxygen buried
in the workpiece. I did clean all the scale off in the weld area.

And, thanks again, Ernie, for the suggestion on the Lanthanated
electrodes. I didn't get them yet, but I did find that pack of
2% Thoriated electrodes I knew I had around here somewhere.
They were 1/16" inch, not 1/8 as I thought, but you can weld
1/8" steel with a 1/16" electrode, according to my Lincoln TIG
book. I set the current for 150 A max, and the difference was
amazing. I felt like I suddenly had developed about 2 years of
experience with TIG. I welded for about an hour, on and off,
without having to regrind the electrode once, or even pull it
out from the collet! AMAZING difference! I can't believe that
anyone ever uses EWP electrodes if they perform SO MUCH worse than
even 25 year old Thoriated ones! Is the differece really that
enormous, or did I get some crappy Chinese electrodes made from
burned out light bulbs? (The electrodes I bought at the Cee Kay
store are labeled "best welds" on the top of the label, and
"OKI Bering Cincinnati (sic) OH" at the bottom. Are there brands
to stay away from, or to specifically ask for?)

Anyway, things are getting much better, at least in the steel department!

One more question, mostly pertaining to Lincoln Square Wave machines.
I'm having a problem in the HF system. The spark gap hisses very
smoothly and steadily when the HF is on, but sometimes I get no
HF at the electrode. Other times, it is like a flame thrower, and
I now realize I was trying to weld with the HF energy, not real welding
current, when I was starting out. When it is working, I can get little
lightning bolts running through the Argon from as far as an inch.
When it is not working, I end up touching the electrode to the
workpiece before I get any discharge. It seems after that happens,
I then ALWAYS have HF on the next start. When it is not working,
I can CLEARLY hear the HF spark gaps hissing. Any suggestions where
to look? Is there an arc developing inside the machine, shorting out
the HF? I think my cables and hoses are in very good condition.

There is a 3 Ohm 25 Watt rheostat marked HF intensity or thereabouts,
and it had a problem. I thought fixing that was going to solve my
HF problems, but it didn't. There was a small weld spot on the
resistor element, and it had caused the graphite wiper to jump out of the
claw that sweeps it across the element. I had to file down the spot
so the wiper wouldn't catch. I think the rheostat is now in good
condition, but I'm still getting intermittent HF at the electrode.

Thanks in advance for any ideas on this.

Jon

Richard Coke wrote:
From: Jon Elson


Sometimes
I touch the electrode to the metal, but that contamination
burns off after a few seconds, it seems.


In addition to what Ernie has said I would advise you to not continue welding
after you contaminate the electrode. Stop, clean it, resharpen it and then go
back to work. You can get an accumulation of metal deposited on the inside of
the cup that boils off the electrode when you continue welding after you
contaminate the tip.

Right, I was pretty much aware of this. But, I was only getting 15
seconds of work before the EWP electrode was just sputtering and
flashing! And, the thing looked like it had blobs of molten steel
melted into the entire exposed length right up to the collet!


I switched to some 25 year old 2% Thoriated electrodes I had laying around,
and they worked BEAUTIFULLY. I can't believe an EWP electrode is supposed
to be that awful, so I am wondering if these electrodes are of poor
quality. (Hmm, looking on the back of the box, it says "made in China".
How come I thought I might find such a label there?

Jon

In article , Jon Elson
wrote:

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:
In article , Jim C Roberts wrote:


Ernie aka, "The Man", wisely advised.................


You should try some stainless steel filler rod on your steel welds to
see if they settle down.
Stainless can deal with more contaminated materiel.
The nickle and chrome help it flow in nicely.


Ernie,

Could he possibly be heating the metal past its melting point and causing
it to boil? I have been guilty of this before, especially using 2 different
thicknesses of metal.

Regards,
Jim



You can boil the steel all you want as long as it is shielded by Argon.

OK, then either my torch without the gas lenses is not properly
covering the weld area, or there is something like oxygen buried
in the workpiece. I did clean all the scale off in the weld area.

And, thanks again, Ernie, for the suggestion on the Lanthanated
electrodes. I didn't get them yet, but I did find that pack of
2% Thoriated electrodes I knew I had around here somewhere.
They were 1/16" inch, not 1/8 as I thought, but you can weld
1/8" steel with a 1/16" electrode, according to my Lincoln TIG
book. I set the current for 150 A max, and the difference was
amazing. I felt like I suddenly had developed about 2 years of
experience with TIG. I welded for about an hour, on and off,
without having to regrind the electrode once, or even pull it
out from the collet! AMAZING difference! I can't believe that
anyone ever uses EWP electrodes if they perform SO MUCH worse than
even 25 year old Thoriated ones! Is the differece really that
enormous, or did I get some crappy Chinese electrodes made from
burned out light bulbs? (The electrodes I bought at the Cee Kay
store are labeled "best welds" on the top of the label, and
"OKI Bering Cincinnati (sic) OH" at the bottom. Are there brands
to stay away from, or to specifically ask for?)


There are only a few companies that make tungstens, everybody else just
relabels to sell under thgeir name.

They are all sintered from powder.
I have never had any clear evdence that the manufacturer makes a
difference

The only thing pures are good for are extremely low amperage welds on
thin aluminum using AC.



Anyway, things are getting much better, at least in the steel department!

One more question, mostly pertaining to Lincoln Square Wave machines.
I'm having a problem in the HF system. The spark gap hisses very
smoothly and steadily when the HF is on, but sometimes I get no
HF at the electrode. Other times, it is like a flame thrower, and
I now realize I was trying to weld with the HF energy, not real welding
current, when I was starting out. When it is working, I can get little
lightning bolts running through the Argon from as far as an inch.
When it is not working, I end up touching the electrode to the
workpiece before I get any discharge. It seems after that happens,
I then ALWAYS have HF on the next start. When it is not working,
I can CLEARLY hear the HF spark gaps hissing. Any suggestions where
to look? Is there an arc developing inside the machine, shorting out
the HF? I think my cables and hoses are in very good condition.


Sounds like your spark gaps need to be cleaned and regapped.
There should be a hatch that gains you access to the HF generator.
The HF Gen has a pair of spark gaps that need to be cleaned every 5
years or so, depending on environment.
You have to remove the points, clean then gently so they are flat and
clean, then put them back in and set them to the factory gap.
I find that puting them in a drillpress works well, and just spin a
piece of silicon carbide sandpaper against the face with a flat bar
backing it up.
The idea is to get it very flat and smooth.

The gap is usually somewhere around 0.008".
Use a feeler gauge.

There is a 3 Ohm 25 Watt rheostat marked HF intensity or thereabouts,
and it had a problem. I thought fixing that was going to solve my
HF problems, but it didn't. There was a small weld spot on the
resistor element, and it had caused the graphite wiper to jump out of the
claw that sweeps it across the element. I had to file down the spot
so the wiper wouldn't catch. I think the rheostat is now in good
condition, but I'm still getting intermittent HF at the electrode.

Thanks in advance for any ideas on this.


Another point.
Get in the habit of "Cold Scratching".

Every time you stop and arc, there is a little cloud of ionized metal
particles caught in the plasma stream.
When the arc stops, they will collapse onto tyhe trungsten point.
These particles will form an extremely thin oxide layer that is a very
good insulator.
Scratch the tungsten point on your base metal before hitting the foot
pedal to break through this coating.
If you get in the habit of this you will get much more consistent arc
strikes.
Just be sure to NOT have the foot pedal down while doing it or you will
contaminate your tungsten.

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:


There are only a few companies that make tungstens, everybody else just
relabels to sell under thgeir name.

Well, I'm learning, slowly, what works and what doesn't. But, I got
a major chunk of my first TIG project done (stand for surface plate).



Sounds like your spark gaps need to be cleaned and regapped.
There should be a hatch that gains you access to the HF generator.
The HF Gen has a pair of spark gaps that need to be cleaned every 5
years or so, depending on environment.
You have to remove the points, clean then gently so they are flat and
clean, then put them back in and set them to the factory gap.
I find that puting them in a drillpress works well, and just spin a
piece of silicon carbide sandpaper against the face with a flat bar
backing it up.
The idea is to get it very flat and smooth.

They ARE very flat and smooth, and the gap is about right. They make a
loud hiss, no buzzing or popping. And, the hiss is the same whether
the HF is working or not on that start. So, I think it is something else.


Another point.
Get in the habit of "Cold Scratching".

Every time you stop and arc, there is a little cloud of ionized metal
particles caught in the plasma stream.
When the arc stops, they will collapse onto tyhe trungsten point.
These particles will form an extremely thin oxide layer that is a very
good insulator.
Scratch the tungsten point on your base metal before hitting the foot
pedal to break through this coating.

AHHH, I think this is it! I'd never heard of this, and it isn't in any
of the books, either! But, I did notice that anytime I accidentally
touched the electrode to the work, I would get an excellent arc start
the next time. Just that I was doing by accident, but I hadn't actually
figured out the connection, yet!

If you get in the habit of this you will get much more consistent arc
strikes.
Just be sure to NOT have the foot pedal down while doing it or you will
contaminate your tungsten.

Well, I did this a fair number of times with the 2% Thoria electrodes.
I would get a green flash, and then it would go right back to a smooth
arc. But, thanks again for getting me to give up on the pure W
electrodes. Never again!

Jon