left right is no brainer but in out or back and forth has got me
stumped.......shims is all i can think of but that can't be right
enlighten me please
thanks

I don't know what type of mill you have, but when I had RF round column
mill, I used shims underneath the column. I never did get it right (the
thing had a twist in it that no amount of mount tweaking would cure), but I
got it better.

Regards,

Peter

"Wet Dog" wrote in message
...
left right is no brainer but in out or back and forth has got me
stumped.......shims is all i can think of but that can't be right
enlighten me please
thanks

"Wet Dog" wrote in message
...
left right is no brainer but in out or back and forth has got me
stumped.......shims is all i can think of but that can't be right
enlighten me please
thanks

For us Brits, what is tramming?

In article ,
"John Manders" wrote:

"Wet Dog" wrote in message
...
left right is no brainer but in out or back and forth has got me
stumped.......shims is all i can think of but that can't be right
enlighten me please
thanks

For us Brits, what is tramming?



Just Brits? Heck, for us Americans, what is tramming?

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no
response, see http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html Short
form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject.

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"John Manders" wrote:

"Wet Dog" wrote in message
...
left right is no brainer but in out or back and forth has got me
stumped.......shims is all i can think of but that can't be right
enlighten me please
thanks

For us Brits, what is tramming?



Just Brits? Heck, for us Americans, what is tramming?
The 'art' of adjusting the spindle truly square with the X/Y axis of the
table.
Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

It's the art of adjusting most anything "truly square, or parallel, or
properly spaced, etc" as called for by the application at hand. Tools
used to obtain this include surface plates, gage blocks, levels,
squares, plumb lines, etc., and today, lasers. The degree of accuray
needed to obtain a good 'tram' depends on the application.

One use of the word is in setting up a steam locomotive suspension ...
getting all the driving axles parallel and spaced the same as the holes
in the siderods, and everything centered in the frame so the rods will
all line up with the crossheads and cylinder/valve bores, etc. When it's
properly 'trammed' everything will work smoothly.

Dan Mitchell
==========

Ken Davey wrote:

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"John Manders" wrote:

"Wet Dog" wrote in message
...
left right is no brainer but in out or back and forth has got me
stumped.......shims is all i can think of but that can't be right
enlighten me please
thanks

For us Brits, what is tramming?



Just Brits? Heck, for us Americans, what is tramming?
The 'art' of adjusting the spindle truly square with the X/Y axis of the
table.
Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

Tramming is done with a co-axial indicator. It is common that many
Bridgeport clone mills are made with a slight tilt where the front of the
table is slightly higher than the back. This is done so that when the mill
wears in a bit, it will be square. This slight upward tilt will also
partially compensate for work loading on the table. In any case, it usually
doesn't matter.
Steve

"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...
Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"John Manders" wrote:

"Wet Dog" wrote in message
...
left right is no brainer but in out or back and forth has got me
stumped.......shims is all i can think of but that can't be right
enlighten me please
thanks

For us Brits, what is tramming?



Just Brits? Heck, for us Americans, what is tramming?
The 'art' of adjusting the spindle truly square with the X/Y axis of the
table.
Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com

Ok - I'll bite - can you describe the method -

Martin

Steve Lusardi wrote:

Tramming is done with a co-axial indicator. It is common that many
Bridgeport clone mills are made with a slight tilt where the front of the
table is slightly higher than the back. This is done so that when the mill
wears in a bit, it will be square. This slight upward tilt will also
partially compensate for work loading on the table. In any case, it usually
doesn't matter.
Steve

"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...

Don Bruder wrote:

In article ,
"John Manders" wrote:


"Wet Dog" wrote in message
m...

left right is no brainer but in out or back and forth has got me
stumped.......shims is all i can think of but that can't be right
enlighten me please
thanks

For us Brits, what is tramming?



Just Brits? Heck, for us Americans, what is tramming?

The 'art' of adjusting the spindle truly square with the X/Y axis of the
table.
Ken.

--
http://www.rupert.net/~solar
Return address supplied by 'spammotel'
http://www.spammotel.com







--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

From: "John Manders"

For us Brits, what is tramming?


I'm not certain of the origin of the word but it probably comes from "trammel"
.. In this sense it means to align the spindle of the machine so it is normal
or perpendicular to the plane of the table movement.

Richard Coke

"John Manders" wrote in message
...

"Wet Dog" wrote in message
...
left right is no brainer but in out or back and forth has got me
stumped.......shims is all i can think of but that can't be right
enlighten me please
thanks

For us Brits, what is tramming?

John,

You're question is valid, not only in the UK, but here in the States as
well. Tramming, as far as I know, is an archaic term that was applied to
the application of a tramming tool to time motion on steam locomotives and
other steam engines. How in hell it became the term for truing machinery
is a mystery to me. I've worked in the shop (commercially) since 1957 and
had never heard the term used. Only when I got online, talking with a huge
number of people that run machines for pleasure, did I hear the term used.
Everywhere I worked, dialing in, or sweeping, was the term used. I guess
it doesn't really matter what terminology is used so long as everyone is on
the same page. It appears in this instance that is not the case.

Sort of reminds me of how the word " swarf" is being used. If you buy a
new machine, if it's CNC and produces a lot of chips, they sell you a chip
removal system, not a swarf removal system. A lathe comes with a CHIP
pan, not a swarf pan. Swarf, by definition, is fine residue created by
abrasion or machining. Grinding machines create swarf, lathes and mills
create chips.

Harold

From: "Harold & Susan Vordos"

Tramming, as far as I know, is an archaic term

How in hell it became the term for truing machinery
is a mystery to me.

One definition of the word trammel is:
tram|mel «TRAM uhl», noun, verb, -meled, -mel|ing or -melled, -mel|ling.

€“n.
a gauge used in adjusting and aligning mechanical parts.

So, "tramming" probably came into common usage as a corruption of
"trammelling".
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


Richard Coke

I generally agree with your statements. The term is somewhat, but not
totally, archaic; and did indeed apply to steam locomotives. It may have
originated there, since an early term for railways was 'tram', and THAT
usage seems to have originated in Britian. The word 'tram' evolved,
becomming a widely used term for electric streetcars, both in Europe and
the USA. The word is still often used today as regards underground
mining and tunneling railroads.

However, it also appears frequently in MANY, especially older, machine
operating manuals, machine shop instruction manuals, etc.. These are not
at all just those involved in railroad practice. The word may well have
'migrated' from RR shops, among the earlier heavy industries, to more
general use. It still appears in such publications today, especially as
regards squaring and aligning various machine axes in mills, drill
presses, and the like.

And, it's still MUCH in use in the steam loco fraternity, both with
model locomotives and the preserved full sized ones.

Personally, I've encountered the word MANY times in many places, but I
will admit that I hang around with 'steam loco folks' a lot! :-)

A 'Google' search turned up MANY hits, in various contexts.

The word is certainly specialized, but it's FAR from 'dead'.

Dan Mitchell
==========

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"John Manders" wrote in message
...

"Wet Dog" wrote in message
...
left right is no brainer but in out or back and forth has got me
stumped.......shims is all i can think of but that can't be right
enlighten me please
thanks

For us Brits, what is tramming?

John,

You're question is valid, not only in the UK, but here in the States as
well. Tramming, as far as I know, is an archaic term that was applied to
the application of a tramming tool to time motion on steam locomotives and
other steam engines. How in hell it became the term for truing machinery
is a mystery to me. I've worked in the shop (commercially) since 1957 and
had never heard the term used. Only when I got online, talking with a huge
number of people that run machines for pleasure, did I hear the term used.
Everywhere I worked, dialing in, or sweeping, was the term used. I guess
it doesn't really matter what terminology is used so long as everyone is on
the same page. It appears in this instance that is not the case.

Sort of reminds me of how the word " swarf" is being used. If you buy a
new machine, if it's CNC and produces a lot of chips, they sell you a chip
removal system, not a swarf removal system. A lathe comes with a CHIP
pan, not a swarf pan. Swarf, by definition, is fine residue created by
abrasion or machining. Grinding machines create swarf, lathes and mills
create chips.

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos writes:

Swarf, by definition, is fine residue created by
abrasion or machining. Grinding machines create swarf, lathes and mills
create chips.

But it sounds so cool to say, "swarf".

And the strings, corkscrews, and needles are not properly "chips".

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
Swarf, by definition, is fine residue created by
abrasion or machining. Grinding machines create swarf, lathes and mills


About a thousand years ago, when I used to cut records, the acetate
gouged out by the stylus in the record lathe was refered to as "swarf".
The vacuum system and jar that sucked up the cuttings was the "swarf
collector". The other night I had to explain to my daughter what a "45"
was. Damn I'm old.

Kevin "Red Label" Gallimore


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

axolotl wrote:

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:
Swarf, by definition, is fine residue created by
abrasion or machining. Grinding machines create swarf, lathes and mills

About a thousand years ago, when I used to cut records, the acetate
gouged out by the stylus in the record lathe was refered to as "swarf".
The vacuum system and jar that sucked up the cuttings was the "swarf
collector". The other night I had to explain to my daughter what a "45"
was. Damn I'm old.

Kevin "Red Label" Gallimore

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Trick question, Old Kevin?

How many grooves are on a 45?


Richard

Richard Lamb wrote in message ...
Trick question, Old Kevin?

How many grooves are on a 45?


Richard

That depends. Is it a new 45, or one that has been played, over and over, on
a portable record player with a five pound stylus, at one of my brother's
"twist til you puke" parties?

Paul K. Dickman

Richard Lamb wrote:

Trick question, Old Kevin?

How many grooves are on a 45?


Not sure what the trick is- one per side just like an LP. If you mean
what is the pitch, it varies. The leadscrew servo speed is controlled by
the signal from the preview head on the tape deck- if the music is
louder, the deviation is greater and the groove pitch is wider.

Kevin Gallimore


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Sort of reminds me of how the word " swarf" is being used.

That term has a great deal of varied use, depending on where
one is from. The instructor at the voc-tech school used it
all the time to describe machined chips. He was from the UK
and I think that was standard use there.

It is also a general term for any particulate by-product,
for example the fine debris that results from flint arrowhead
manufacture is indeed described as 'swarf.'

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

A few years ago, a designer of a special machine was said to have
made the remark during testing that a few 'shims' would correct a
minor problem. The VP of that division overheard him and said
".... no shims!" So the designer immediately rephrased and said
"Okay, a couple of spacers..."

But seriously, what's wrong with using shims? Shim stock is sold in
a variety of materials ,thicknesses, and shapes.


"Wet Dog" wrote in message
...
left right is no brainer but in out or back and forth has got me
stumped.......shims is all i can think of but that can't be right
enlighten me please
thanks




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"Lurker" wrote in message
...
A few years ago, a designer of a special machine was said to have
made the remark during testing that a few 'shims' would correct a
minor problem. The VP of that division overheard him and said
".... no shims!" So the designer immediately rephrased and said
"Okay, a couple of spacers..."

But seriously, what's wrong with using shims? Shim stock is sold in
a variety of materials ,thicknesses, and shapes.

The use of shims for machine tools is sort of bush league. One of the
problems of shims is if you dismantle the object, there's no guarantee the
shim will be replaced, nor that it will be replaced where needed. In
machine tools, you pay for precision, which can include scraping or
precision grinding. Shims are a dodge to avoid doing so. That's not to
say that a shim doesn't work. Of course it does. You just don't have as
much control over the end result that you might have by doing it "right".

Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

The use of shims for machine tools is sort of bush league. One of the
problems of shims is if you dismantle the object, there's no guarantee the
shim will be replaced, nor that it will be replaced where needed. In
machine tools, you pay for precision, which can include scraping or
precision grinding. Shims are a dodge to avoid doing so. That's not to
say that a shim doesn't work. Of course it does. You just don't have as
much control over the end result that you might have by doing it "right".

It's more than just 'not right.'

In this case the issue is an angular mis-alignment of the
column with respect to the table. Placing a shim under *one*
side of the column base means that the contact area between
the two parts has been drastically reduced.

That's the whole idea with fitting parts by hand-scraping,
to obtain large, uniform contact areas to enhance stability
and rigidity.

And yes, I've personally seen asian mill-drills with just
such shims installed - right from the factory! The
interesting thing was, they were made of copper, and taped
in place under the column!! How's that for stability?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message ...
"Lurker" wrote in message
...
A few years ago, a designer of a special machine was said to have
made the remark during testing that a few 'shims' would correct a
minor problem. The VP of that division overheard him and said
".... no shims!" So the designer immediately rephrased and said
"Okay, a couple of spacers..."

But seriously, what's wrong with using shims? Shim stock is sold in
a variety of materials ,thicknesses, and shapes.

The use of shims for machine tools is sort of bush league. One of the
problems of shims is if you dismantle the object, there's no guarantee the
shim will be replaced, nor that it will be replaced where needed. In
machine tools, you pay for precision, which can include scraping or
precision grinding. Shims are a dodge to avoid doing so. That's not to
say that a shim doesn't work. Of course it does. You just don't have as
much control over the end result that you might have by doing it "right".

I'll add a little here, Harold. With the particular mill in question,
the column tilts for angle milling, and there's no guarantee that the
shim will be correct for any other position other than with the column
square to the table. I just bought one similar but smaller, but
haven't had time to lay the base and column out to see if there's a
problem there, or where the head mounts to the column dovetails. I
have to say, I'm impressed that such a small machine has an R-8
spindle taper, and it seems to be quite rigid for it's size. For
something like model building, and with it's $279 price, it seems to
be a pretty good value at first glance. Time will tell the full
story.

"Lennie the Lurker" wrote in message
om...
"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
"Lurker" wrote in message
...
A few years ago, a designer of a special machine was said to have
made the remark during testing that a few 'shims' would correct a
minor problem. The VP of that division overheard him and said
".... no shims!" So the designer immediately rephrased and said
"Okay, a couple of spacers..."

But seriously, what's wrong with using shims? Shim stock is sold in
a variety of materials ,thicknesses, and shapes.

The use of shims for machine tools is sort of bush league. One of
the
problems of shims is if you dismantle the object, there's no guarantee
the
shim will be replaced, nor that it will be replaced where needed.
In
machine tools, you pay for precision, which can include scraping or
precision grinding. Shims are a dodge to avoid doing so. That's
not to
say that a shim doesn't work. Of course it does. You just don't have
as
much control over the end result that you might have by doing it
"right".

I'll add a little here, Harold. With the particular mill in question,
the column tilts for angle milling, and there's no guarantee that the
shim will be correct for any other position other than with the column
square to the table.

Excellent point!

The bottom line is there's no substitute for making and assembling parts
properly. It is almost a given, if you start out wrong, every time you turn
your attention to fixing one problem, it tends to make another one worse.

I just bought one similar but smaller, but
haven't had time to lay the base and column out to see if there's a
problem there, or where the head mounts to the column dovetails. I
have to say, I'm impressed that such a small machine has an R-8
spindle taper, and it seems to be quite rigid for it's size. For
something like model building, and with it's $279 price, it seems to
be a pretty good value at first glance. Time will tell the full
story.

It would have to be a pretty bad story to not be worth the price. What
type machine are you talking about?

Harold

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message ...

It would have to be a pretty bad story to not be worth the price. What
type machine are you talking about?

Harold

THis one

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=47158

I'd like to see the rack on the column a little longer, but at the
price, I can't complain if it works at all. I've taken one cut with
it on a piece of scrap, and it seems to be pretty solid for small
cutters and small work. MY guess is that with the variable speed, a
1/2" endmill and a light cut are about where you're going to run out
of power in steel. Aluminum or brass, possibly a bit more.

One other item I've picked up and found useful, MicroMark sells a tool
post grinder for the 7 X mini lathes for $100. Replaces the compound
slide, so no taper grinding, and has the base machined so you can't
swivel it on the compound. Took five minutes in the surface grinder
to remove the step on the base, still won't grind tapers, but it works
well. Taking off the step lets the belt guard clear the tailstock,
wheel ends up dressed with an angle, but that's of no consequence.
Not something if you're in a hurry, but for my use, it works well.

Wet Dog wrote in message . ..
left right is no brainer but in out or back and forth has got me
stumped.......shims is all i can think of but that can't be right
enlighten me please
thanks

Shims are all you have unless you want to remachine the column mount
or base casting, or both. Unless the head is out of parallel with the
column, which could very well be also.