How do you guys handle working with a HAZ on plate? Heat Affected
Zone..on flame cut plate.

Its driving me nuts trying to square up some rectangles of flame cut
4130

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 00:52:32 GMT, Gunner wrote:

How do you guys handle working with a HAZ on plate? Heat Affected
Zone..on flame cut plate.

Suggest you read posts other than yours & winger BS in alt.machines.cnc.

HTH
--
Cliff

Since you hardened the edge of the 4130 the only way is to soften it. I
would try "very slowly " run your cutting torch along the edge... I am
guessing at an inch every thirty seconds ( 1/4 plate?). The thicker the
plate the worse will be the quenching effect so you may have to even move
more slowly.
If that doesn't work it is time to anneal in a furnace and cool slowly
as possible.
I hate to say it but flame cutting was the problem. The only way to cut
the stuff without having a HAZ is to saw or water jet cut it.
Randy


"Gunner" wrote in message
...
How do you guys handle working with a HAZ on plate? Heat Affected
Zone..on flame cut plate.

Its driving me nuts trying to square up some rectangles of flame cut
4130

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 01:06:15 GMT, "R. Zimmerman"
wrote:

Since you hardened the edge of the 4130 the only way is to soften it. I
would try "very slowly " run your cutting torch along the edge... I am
guessing at an inch every thirty seconds ( 1/4 plate?). The thicker the
plate the worse will be the quenching effect so you may have to even move
more slowly.
If that doesn't work it is time to anneal in a furnace and cool slowly
as possible.
I hate to say it but flame cutting was the problem. The only way to cut
the stuff without having a HAZ is to saw or water jet cut it.
Randy


I got the stuff as drops from a mold making and welding shop. So I
didnt have much choice in how it was cut.

the stuff is 1.260 thick plate..hot rolled making it even worse. Im
just making fingers for a finger break. The faces were easy to
flatten out..its the sides that are the bitch

Gunner


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
How do you guys handle working with a HAZ on plate? Heat Affected
Zone..on flame cut plate.

Its driving me nuts trying to square up some rectangles of flame cut
4130

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3




"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

Gunner wrote:
On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 01:06:15 GMT, "R. Zimmerman"
wrote:



I got the stuff as drops from a mold making and welding shop. So I
didnt have much choice in how it was cut.

the stuff is 1.260 thick plate..hot rolled making it even worse. Im
just making fingers for a finger break. The faces were easy to
flatten out..its the sides that are the bitch

If you get well under the HAZ and conventional cut it, an end mill will work
just fine.
4130 crystalizes. Very nasty.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 01:14:58 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

I got the stuff as drops from a mold making and welding shop. So I
didnt have much choice in how it was cut.

the stuff is 1.260 thick plate..hot rolled making it even worse. Im
just making fingers for a finger break. The faces were easy to
flatten out..its the sides that are the bitch

3

You might have to grind through the hard stuff. With the shaper maybe
you can "get behind" the hard edge with the point of your tool and
peel off the hard stuff?
--
Randy Replogle

"R. Zimmerman" wrote in message
news:bsFXf.212105$H%4.85152@pd7tw2no...
Since you hardened the edge of the 4130 the only way is to soften it. I
would try "very slowly " run your cutting torch along the edge... I am
guessing at an inch every thirty seconds ( 1/4 plate?). The thicker the
plate the worse will be the quenching effect so you may have to even move
more slowly.
If that doesn't work it is time to anneal in a furnace and cool slowly
as possible.
I hate to say it but flame cutting was the problem. The only way to
cut
the stuff without having a HAZ is to saw or water jet cut it.
Randy


"Gunner" wrote in message
...
How do you guys handle working with a HAZ on plate? Heat Affected
Zone..on flame cut plate.

Its driving me nuts trying to square up some rectangles of flame cut
4130

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills


Just throw the whole chunk into the woodstove or burn pile--and let it cool
down back down with the ashes, pick it out the next day.

--

SVL

On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 09:34:56 -0700, "PrecisionMechanical"
wrote:


"R. Zimmerman" wrote in message
news:bsFXf.212105$H%4.85152@pd7tw2no...
Since you hardened the edge of the 4130 the only way is to soften it. I
would try "very slowly " run your cutting torch along the edge... I am
guessing at an inch every thirty seconds ( 1/4 plate?). The thicker the
plate the worse will be the quenching effect so you may have to even move
more slowly.
If that doesn't work it is time to anneal in a furnace and cool slowly
as possible.
I hate to say it but flame cutting was the problem. The only way to
cut
the stuff without having a HAZ is to saw or water jet cut it.
Randy


"Gunner" wrote in message
...
How do you guys handle working with a HAZ on plate? Heat Affected
Zone..on flame cut plate.

Its driving me nuts trying to square up some rectangles of flame cut
4130

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills


Just throw the whole chunk into the woodstove or burn pile--and let it cool
down back down with the ashes, pick it out the next day.

Wish I had a woodstove. But this is Central California desert.

I do have a kiln though..small one..big enough for heat treating. What
temp should I get it up to?

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 21:49:34 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Wish I had a woodstove. But this is Central California desert.

I do have a kiln though..small one..big enough for heat treating. What
temp should I get it up to?

Gunner

Bonfire?
--
Randy Replogle

Gunner wrote:

On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 09:34:56 -0700, "PrecisionMechanical"
wrote:

Just throw the whole chunk into the woodstove or burn pile--and let it cool
down back down with the ashes, pick it out the next day.

Wish I had a woodstove. But this is Central California desert.

I do have a kiln though..small one..big enough for heat treating. What
temp should I get it up to?


Gunner:

================================================== ========
http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/4130.asp

Annealing
4130 (and most of the other low alloy steels) may be annealed at 1550 F
for a time long enough to allow thorough heating of the section size. It
should then be cooled in the furnace at a rate of less than 50 F per
hour down to 900 F, followed by air cooling from 900 F.
================================================== ========

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Just throw the whole chunk into the woodstove or burn pile--and let it
cool
down back down with the ashes, pick it out the next day.

Wish I had a woodstove. But this is Central California desert.

I do have a kiln though..small one..big enough for heat treating. What
temp should I get it up to?

Go to www.mcmaster.com and put 3460 in the search box to go to that
page, then click the link at the top for additional info. This gives
composition and physical properties for most common steels, and heat
treating data on the tool steels (but not 4014, big sigh ;-)). Then put
3464 in the search box and repeat to get data on stainless steels.
Again, they give annealing data for most alloys but not for 17-4 and
17-5 PH, again, big sigh. Anyway, a useful grab for the future. Hold
times at temperature seem to be 1 hour per inch of thickness. This
assumes good heat circulation and if you stack your plates directly on
each other they will look like one really thick plate. Put some little
spacers in between each plate so the air can circulate.

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames carl.ijames at verizon.net

On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 00:00:08 GMT, "Carl Ijames"
wrote:

Just throw the whole chunk into the woodstove or burn pile--and let it
cool
down back down with the ashes, pick it out the next day.

Wish I had a woodstove. But this is Central California desert.

I do have a kiln though..small one..big enough for heat treating. What
temp should I get it up to?

Go to www.mcmaster.com and put 3460 in the search box to go to that
page, then click the link at the top for additional info. This gives
composition and physical properties for most common steels, and heat
treating data on the tool steels (but not 4014, big sigh ;-)). Then put
3464 in the search box and repeat to get data on stainless steels.
Again, they give annealing data for most alloys but not for 17-4 and
17-5 PH, again, big sigh. Anyway, a useful grab for the future. Hold
times at temperature seem to be 1 hour per inch of thickness. This
assumes good heat circulation and if you stack your plates directly on
each other they will look like one really thick plate. Put some little
spacers in between each plate so the air can circulate.


I ah..ahum....put them in the kiln last night. Its a Cress ceramic
kiln..with no ramping control....simply a temp gage and a
hotter/cooler pot.

And I promptly forgot about them.

This morning..I walked by the kiln..and noticed it was warm..then
remembered. The thermometer showed 2100F

Opening it up...was not pretty. they had sagged somewhat..or at least
it appeared that they had...

So I fiddled around and got the temps down to 1500 F..and held it
there for a couple hours. then ramped it down to 1000F over another
couple hours..then opened the hatch and let em air cool

They are still hot..and the one closed to the hatch has a thick layer
of something black on the outside..and a gentle tap broke much of it
loose..and it looks like a gravel road underneith it. All bumps and
whatnot. I think this is some sort of scale.....cringe...


I think..before I try this again anytime soon..maybe I can trade
someone here Stuff to make me a temperature controller with times etc
etc...

sigh....well..it was a nice idea. Ill take em out in the morning
before I head south..but suspect they are literally..toast.

Gunner

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist

On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 09:34:56 -0700, "PrecisionMechanical"
wrote:

Just throw the whole chunk into the woodstove or burn pile

Yep.
Get better stock.
--
Cliff

Gunner wrote:

How do you guys handle working with a HAZ on plate? Heat Affected
Zone..on flame cut plate.

Its driving me nuts trying to square up some rectangles of flame cut
4130

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills

Gunner:

Is there enough material to bandsaw off? If so, you could use a die
grinder to grind a place for the bandsaw blade to start and cut through,
then keep the blade in the unhardened stock.

If milling is the only option, conventional milling (not climb
milling), often lets you get under the worst of the hardened scale.
It's going to beat up your tooling no matter what so using inserted
tooling is probably going to be cheaper than burning up high dollar end
mills.

All in all, your shaper may be the cheapest way to go.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Gunner wrote:

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills




Shaper? What the hell is a shaper? Kidding. Sort of.

"How do you guys handle working with a HAZ on plate?"

I have some old end mills that are "used up" on the first .100" but are
sharp above that. I save these for this kind of thing. I'd cut it with
the side, not the end.

Conventional type milling deeper than the worst of the HAZ. I might use
an old junk 1/2" carbide at 500 RPM at 5 IPM with flood coolant. I
know, that's moving really slow, but that's how I do it.

The worst HAZ I've ever seen was some very thick plate that was cut
with a carbon arc. I took a grinder to the bad areas first.

On 1 Apr 2006 17:26:51 -0800, "Polymer Man"
wrote:


Gunner wrote:

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills




Shaper? What the hell is a shaper? Kidding. Sort of.

Actually..for the home guy not in a hurry..there is nothing you cant
do on a shaper that you cant do on a horizontal miller, except drill
holes and pocket.
I use mine mostly for cutting dovetails and the like. But..its slower
than a mill of course. But it doesnt leave any machining marks
either..nearly glass smooth.

I put a 36" Smith-Hall into a aerospace shop a couple years ago. He
fixtures up a ****load of small parts, places the fixture in the
shaper, and lets it run. In 30 minutes..he has all 300 parts faced,
cut to length and glass smooth, without needing an operator. Just
someone to load the fixture.
Plus a shaper makes inside square holes and such with true square
corners, keyways and such really nice without needing any broaches.
They have a place in some shops.
Id like to have a bigger one. Mine is a Logan 8"...but with a
vise..its about 5.75 max height

"How do you guys handle working with a HAZ on plate?"

I have some old end mills that are "used up" on the first .100" but are
sharp above that. I save these for this kind of thing. I'd cut it with
the side, not the end.

Conventional type milling deeper than the worst of the HAZ. I might use
an old junk 1/2" carbide at 500 RPM at 5 IPM with flood coolant. I
know, that's moving really slow, but that's how I do it.

The worst HAZ I've ever seen was some very thick plate that was cut
with a carbon arc. I took a grinder to the bad areas first.

The HAZ is about .09 thick..which is pretty small..but not small
enough. I may have to trepan down into the material with a trepanning
tool in the shaper, and try to peel it away as Randy said. I roughed
em out .375 bigger in all dimensions just in case..but this has been
kicking my ass. I need either a bigger shaper..or a K&T #2 for
this..my little Clausing horizontal isnt beefy enough to run a slab
mill on this stuff..and I dont have a power feed on the Gorton
MasterMill....

Thanks for the suggestions. No matter what I do..this is gonna be a
bitch on anything smaller than a Viper..sigh

I might try recutting them with the bandsaw..which really isnt a bad
idea at all. I might be able to slide down just inside the HAZ. My
7x12 Emerson bandsaw cuts pretty straight. I think Ill try that first.

Thanks guys.


Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

I have an old ceramics kiln that I use to anneal flame cut steel. So
far the normal cool down in the sealed kiln is slow enough. It's
probably more of a normalization that a true anneal but it's good
enough.

Kelley

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 00:52:32 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

How do you guys handle working with a HAZ on plate? Heat Affected
Zone..on flame cut plate.

Its driving me nuts trying to square up some rectangles of flame cut
4130

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Sat, 01 Apr 2006 20:39:34 -0800, Kelley Mascher
wrote:

I have an old ceramics kiln that I use to anneal flame cut steel. So
far the normal cool down in the sealed kiln is slow enough. It's
probably more of a normalization that a true anneal but it's good
enough.

Kelley

Interesting. What temps should I run up to? I have a furnace.

Gunner


On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 00:52:32 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

How do you guys handle working with a HAZ on plate? Heat Affected
Zone..on flame cut plate.

Its driving me nuts trying to square up some rectangles of flame cut
4130

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

"Gunner" wrote
Interesting. What temps should I run up to? I have a furnace.

My Tempil Basic Guide to Ferrous Metalurgy shows a normalizing temp of about
1600 F. for steel with 30 points of carbon. 4130 normalizes in still air,
very still air, don't let the cat wag his tail near the cooling piece and
don't fart. A full anneal can be had by very slow cooling in the furnace.
The stuff will cut like butter then and will need to be re-hardened after
machining.
Good luck.

--
Tom Wait
Barton Rifle Shop
1805 Barton Ave Suite #9
West Bend, Wisconsin 53090
(262) 306-RIFL (7435)

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 17:14:26 GMT, "Tom Wait"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote
Interesting. What temps should I run up to? I have a furnace.

My Tempil Basic Guide to Ferrous Metalurgy shows a normalizing temp of about
1600 F. for steel with 30 points of carbon. 4130 normalizes in still air,
very still air, don't let the cat wag his tail near the cooling piece and
don't fart. A full anneal can be had by very slow cooling in the furnace.
The stuff will cut like butter then and will need to be re-hardened after
machining.
Good luck.


So if I stack em up, and hold em at 1600 for a couple hours..then turn
off the juice and leave em in the oven..it may anneal them.

Thanks, Ill try that as my second option

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 17:14:26 GMT, "Tom Wait"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote
Interesting. What temps should I run up to? I have a furnace.

My Tempil Basic Guide to Ferrous Metalurgy shows a normalizing temp of about
1600 F. for steel with 30 points of carbon. 4130 normalizes in still air,
very still air, don't let the cat wag his tail near the cooling piece and
don't fart. A full anneal can be had by very slow cooling in the furnace.
The stuff will cut like butter then and will need to be re-hardened after
machining.
Good luck.


So if I stack em up, and hold em at 1600 for a couple hours..then turn
off the juice and leave em in the oven..it may anneal them.


4130 anneal: heat to 1600F, cool to 1255F @ 20F/hr, cool in air
4130 normalize: heat to 1600F, cool in air

Ned Simmons

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills


Have you tried a indexable facemill? I never use an endmill for squaring
blocks - only facemills. With hardened stuff, I find carbide works well as
long as you slow it down. You're good if you've got one that takes cheap
inserts.

I was thinking along the lines of Karl with the disc grinder, but .09" is a
lot of material and it's very labour intensive to hog material for a long
time.

Regards,

Robin

On Sun, 2 Apr 2006 10:19:25 -0400, "Robin S."
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills


Have you tried a indexable facemill? I never use an endmill for squaring
blocks - only facemills. With hardened stuff, I find carbide works well as
long as you slow it down. You're good if you've got one that takes cheap
inserts.

Actually..no..I dont have such a facemill. I havent been able to
scrounge up one and a supply of inserts. A fair and dimenishing
number of carbide facemills that are cemented..and no way to resharpen
them. And with material like this...I dont want to use any more up.

I was thinking along the lines of Karl with the disc grinder, but .09" is a
lot of material and it's very labour intensive to hog material for a long
time.

Regards,

Robin

Yup. Thanks for the advise

Gunner




"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

Try these endmills
http://www.wttool.com/c/09420005p
they are very cheap and I have used the 1" double ended in my horizontal
mill to clean off torch cut edges. I bought them for that reason. I think
they were $2.00 each at the time, thats $1.00 per end and they hold up good,
not the smoothest cut but they have cleaned up my torch cutting. I by no
means an a good torch cutter. Let me know what size can fit you mill I have
a few extra 15/16. I have used the 2, 3 and 4 flutes.
"Gunner" wrote in message
...
How do you guys handle working with a HAZ on plate? Heat Affected
Zone..on flame cut plate.

Its driving me nuts trying to square up some rectangles of flame cut
4130

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 00:52:32 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Im doing it now...on a shaper..simply because it was killing my
endmills

What type of endmills were you using?