I have two small metal cylinders from who knows where. Anyway, they are
of similar size, but have markedly different densities. Idle curiosity,
but I want to know what they are.

They are both 1.000" in diameter and similar in color to steel.

The lighter piece is 0.750" high and weighs 42.46 grams. In the center of
one end there is a 0.14" diameter by 0.10" deep hole.

I calculate from this a density of about 5.07 g/cc, which leads me to
believe it is a titanium alloy. What else might it be?

(BTW, these numbers are accurate to the precision given.)

The heavier cylinder is 0.935" high and has a flat milled along its
length. The flat is 0.025" deep; that is, the distance from the opposite
side of the cylinder to the face of the flat is 0.975". It is uniform to
within 0.001" all along the cylinder. This piece weighs 163.73 grams and
is quite hard. An X-acto blade doesn't scratch it.

For this one, I get a density of 13.7 g/cc. Well, it certainly isn't
mercury! I thought perhaps it was some type of cemented carbide, but it
seems a tad light for that. Also, I placed a couple drops of HCl on one
end and left it there for about two minutes, but no discernable amount of
cobalt was dissolved. Any other ideas?

Thanks,

Jim

5 g/cc is sort of odd. Some cast metals seem to be lighter than the pure
metal, due to porosity, air, etc. Cast zinc? If it is an aluminum alloy,
some battery acid ought scuzzy it up good after a while--white alum sulfate.

The heavier metal is odd, too. Carbide, iirc, is about 1.5 the density of
steel? or about 11. So this material would seem to be a bit heavier? I'm
told there are varying kinds of carbide, so maybe it is one variety of
carbide
Put it on a green wheel, and see how it sparks. I believe some carbide is
weakly magnetic, as well.
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Jim Wilson" wrote in message
.net...
I have two small metal cylinders from who knows where. Anyway, they are
of similar size, but have markedly different densities. Idle curiosity,
but I want to know what they are.

They are both 1.000" in diameter and similar in color to steel.

The lighter piece is 0.750" high and weighs 42.46 grams. In the center of
one end there is a 0.14" diameter by 0.10" deep hole.

I calculate from this a density of about 5.07 g/cc, which leads me to
believe it is a titanium alloy. What else might it be?

(BTW, these numbers are accurate to the precision given.)

The heavier cylinder is 0.935" high and has a flat milled along its
length. The flat is 0.025" deep; that is, the distance from the opposite
side of the cylinder to the face of the flat is 0.975". It is uniform to
within 0.001" all along the cylinder. This piece weighs 163.73 grams and
is quite hard. An X-acto blade doesn't scratch it.

For this one, I get a density of 13.7 g/cc. Well, it certainly isn't
mercury! I thought perhaps it was some type of cemented carbide, but it
seems a tad light for that. Also, I placed a couple drops of HCl on one
end and left it there for about two minutes, but no discernable amount of
cobalt was dissolved. Any other ideas?

Thanks,

Jim

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 17:35:33 -0700, Jim Wilson
wrote:

I have two small metal cylinders from who knows where. Anyway, they are
of similar size, but have markedly different densities. Idle curiosity,
but I want to know what they are.

They are both 1.000" in diameter and similar in color to steel.

The lighter piece is 0.750" high and weighs 42.46 grams. In the center of
one end there is a 0.14" diameter by 0.10" deep hole.

I calculate from this a density of about 5.07 g/cc, which leads me to
believe it is a titanium alloy. What else might it be?

(BTW, these numbers are accurate to the precision given.)

The heavier cylinder is 0.935" high and has a flat milled along its
length. The flat is 0.025" deep; that is, the distance from the opposite
side of the cylinder to the face of the flat is 0.975". It is uniform to
within 0.001" all along the cylinder. This piece weighs 163.73 grams and
is quite hard. An X-acto blade doesn't scratch it.

For this one, I get a density of 13.7 g/cc. Well, it certainly isn't
mercury! I thought perhaps it was some type of cemented carbide, but it
seems a tad light for that. Also, I placed a couple drops of HCl on one
end and left it there for about two minutes, but no discernable amount of
cobalt was dissolved. Any other ideas?

Thanks,

Jim
Do you have a geiger counter?

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

Jim Wilson wrote:
I have two small metal cylinders from who knows where. Anyway, they are
of similar size, but have markedly different densities. Idle curiosity,
but I want to know what they are.

They are both 1.000" in diameter and similar in color to steel.

The lighter piece is 0.750" high and weighs 42.46 grams. In the center of
one end there is a 0.14" diameter by 0.10" deep hole.

I calculate from this a density of about 5.07 g/cc, which leads me to
believe it is a titanium alloy. What else might it be?

(BTW, these numbers are accurate to the precision given.)

The heavier cylinder is 0.935" high and has a flat milled along its
length. The flat is 0.025" deep; that is, the distance from the opposite
side of the cylinder to the face of the flat is 0.975". It is uniform to
within 0.001" all along the cylinder. This piece weighs 163.73 grams and
is quite hard. An X-acto blade doesn't scratch it.

For this one, I get a density of 13.7 g/cc. Well, it certainly isn't
mercury! I thought perhaps it was some type of cemented carbide, but it
seems a tad light for that. Also, I placed a couple drops of HCl on one
end and left it there for about two minutes, but no discernable amount of
cobalt was dissolved. Any other ideas?

Thanks,

Jim


Their the lug nuts off a reverse engineered ufo.
Exposure for long periods of time causes hair loss, weight gain and
nagging from significant other. May interfere with cell phone reception.

Return to manufacturer address:
Skunk Works - Groom Lake Division
Nevada, USA



BIG smile

Jim Vrzal
Holiday, Fl.

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 22:36:25 -0800, xray
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 06:09:01 GMT, Gunner wrote:

Do you have a geiger counter?

Gunner

I was thinking about that too. Wouldn't want to find yourself in the
middle of a story like this:

http://www.answers.com/topic/goi-nia-accident


Its more likely to be a piece of DU, which is no biggie

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

I'd guess the heavy one is one of the tungsten alloys used for weights, some
of these are quite hard. Pure uranium is quite soft as I recall (although
perhaps DU is alloyed to make it harder).

Jim Wilson wrote:

For this one, I get a density of 13.7 g/cc. Well, it certainly isn't
mercury!

DU? I hope not. Uran has 18.95 g/cm^3

Americum (Am): 13.67 g/cm^3
Berkelium (Bk): 14 g/cm^3
Curium (Cm): 14 g/cm^3
Hafnium (Hf): 13.31 g/cm^3
Mercury (Hg): 13.59 g/cm^3


Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de
DIY-DRO // Eigenbau-Digitalanzeige
http://www.yadro.de

Gunner wrote...

Do you have a geiger counter?

(G) That occurred to me, too, but I think it's unlikely. I *can* get my
hands on a geiger counter, though.

Jim

Keywords:
In article , "Newshound" wrote:
I'd guess the heavy one is one of the tungsten alloys used for weights, some
of these are quite hard. Pure uranium is quite soft as I recall (although
perhaps DU is alloyed to make it harder).

I second this guess. They make "easy to machine" alloys with copper that
are still VERY hard. One company that made tungsten alloys was Kulite,
but apparently they sold that business off to H.C. Starck.

Doug White

Could be tungsten carbide. With that density it should be about 15%
cobalt unless it is a WC / TiC mix or similar. This would be a really
tough grade similar to what we sell for cutting up old pallets with
nails in them.

It will be magnetic because of the cobalt in it.

HCl won't do much to cobalt bonded WC. Try maybe 10% Nitric acid but
watch out for fumes (thick red smoke created almost immediately).
They can be really nasty.

On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 06:53:53 -0700, Jim Wilson
wrote:

Gunner wrote...

Do you have a geiger counter?

(G) That occurred to me, too, but I think it's unlikely. I *can* get my
hands on a geiger counter, though.

Jim


Need to borrow some of mine?

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

wrote...

Could be tungsten carbide. With that density it should be about 15%
cobalt unless it is a WC / TiC mix or similar. This would be a really
tough grade similar to what we sell for cutting up old pallets with
nails in them.

It will be magnetic because of the cobalt in it.

HCl won't do much to cobalt bonded WC. Try maybe 10% Nitric acid but
watch out for fumes (thick red smoke created almost immediately).
They can be really nasty.

Interesting info. The piece _is_ magnetic. The flat makes it look like a
section of a tool shank, which hints toward a tungsten carbide, too. I
also noticed what looks like a laser marking at one end of the flat that
I forgot to mention before. It reads "###".

Gunner wrote...
Need to borrow some of mine?

Thanks, but not this time. For one thing, I have good friends in the
physics and radiocarbon dating labs at the University of Arizona. No
shipping required. But I seriously doubt this stuff could be radioactive
anyway, and I'm not really planning on checking. :-)

Cheers, and thanks again!

Jim

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:51:42 -0700, Jim Wilson
wrote:

Gunner wrote...
Need to borrow some of mine?

Thanks, but not this time. For one thing, I have good friends in the
physics and radiocarbon dating labs at the University of Arizona. No
shipping required. But I seriously doubt this stuff could be radioactive
anyway, and I'm not really planning on checking. :-)

Cheers, and thanks again!

Jim

There are many true stories of items that were low level radioactive
being found at scrap yards and so forth. DU is/was used as trim
weights in helicopter blades and so forth, and have been found.

I collect lead for bullet casting..and have found more than one odd
shaped lead container that was used to hold a source. Shrug

But if its magnetic..its not DU.


"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:04:28 GMT, Gunner wrote:

There are many true stories of items that were low level radioactive
being found at scrap yards and so forth. DU is/was used as trim
weights in helicopter blades and so forth, and have been found.

OK, I can't be the _only_ one that has a geiger counter in the basement,
right?

I collect lead for bullet casting..and have found more than one odd
shaped lead container that was used to hold a source. Shrug

It's not holding on to those photons any more than your eyes are holding
on to the light they've received.

But if its magnetic..its not DU.

I remember touring Fermilab in Illinois when I was in high school
(advanced physics class field trip). They showed us two blocks of
astonishingly dense material, I think it was tungsten. roughly brick
sized and could barely move 'em.

On 20 Mar 2006 17:31:46 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:04:28 GMT, Gunner wrote:

There are many true stories of items that were low level radioactive
being found at scrap yards and so forth. DU is/was used as trim
weights in helicopter blades and so forth, and have been found.

OK, I can't be the _only_ one that has a geiger counter in the basement,
right?

I have at least 6 different types, plus the pocket rad counters.

I collect lead for bullet casting..and have found more than one odd
shaped lead container that was used to hold a source. Shrug

It's not holding on to those photons any more than your eyes are holding
on to the light they've received.

But if its magnetic..its not DU.

I remember touring Fermilab in Illinois when I was in high school
(advanced physics class field trip). They showed us two blocks of
astonishingly dense material, I think it was tungsten. roughly brick
sized and could barely move 'em.



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

According to Dave Hinz :
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:04:28 GMT, Gunner wrote:

There are many true stories of items that were low level radioactive
being found at scrap yards and so forth. DU is/was used as trim
weights in helicopter blades and so forth, and have been found.

OK, I can't be the _only_ one that has a geiger counter in the basement,
right?

Well ... not in the basement -- but I have two. One is a simple
"radiation survey meter" of the kind which used to be in CD fallout
shelters and such, and the other is a nice multi-range one which is Navy
surplus, and took quite a bit of work to adapt available batteries to
replace the 135V brick with an octal socket with two keyways. :-)

I collect lead for bullet casting..and have found more than one odd
shaped lead container that was used to hold a source. Shrug

It's not holding on to those photons any more than your eyes are holding
on to the light they've received.

Agreed. As long as it is not alloyed with something which is
knocked into a different isotope and which will later decay making
secondary radiation.

But if its magnetic..its not DU.

Unless it is in a steel housing. :-)

I remember touring Fermilab in Illinois when I was in high school
(advanced physics class field trip). They showed us two blocks of
astonishingly dense material, I think it was tungsten. roughly brick
sized and could barely move 'em.

:-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:47:23 +0000, (DoN.
Nichols) wrote:

According to Dave Hinz :
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:04:28 GMT, Gunner wrote:

There are many true stories of items that were low level radioactive
being found at scrap yards and so forth. DU is/was used as trim
weights in helicopter blades and so forth, and have been found.

OK, I can't be the _only_ one that has a geiger counter in the basement,
right?

Well ... not in the basement -- but I have two. One is a simple
"radiation survey meter" of the kind which used to be in CD fallout
shelters and such, and the other is a nice multi-range one which is Navy
surplus, and took quite a bit of work to adapt available batteries to
replace the 135V brick with an octal socket with two keyways. :-)

I collect lead for bullet casting..and have found more than one odd
shaped lead container that was used to hold a source. Shrug

It's not holding on to those photons any more than your eyes are holding
on to the light they've received.

Agreed. As long as it is not alloyed with something which is
knocked into a different isotope and which will later decay making
secondary radiation.

Budda bing. Ive found "dust" inside them that was hot. Not really
hot...but significantly higher than background. Washed em out with a
garden hose and they read clean. This being years ago of course in
another location.

But if its magnetic..its not DU.

Unless it is in a steel housing. :-)

I remember touring Fermilab in Illinois when I was in high school
(advanced physics class field trip). They showed us two blocks of
astonishingly dense material, I think it was tungsten. roughly brick
sized and could barely move 'em.

:-)

Enjoy,
DoN.



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

I had one when I was a kid but never had the fancy batteries for it.
Karl

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:04:28 GMT, Gunner wrote:

There are many true stories of items that were low level radioactive
being found at scrap yards and so forth. DU is/was used as trim
weights in helicopter blades and so forth, and have been found.

OK, I can't be the _only_ one that has a geiger counter in the basement,
right?

I collect lead for bullet casting..and have found more than one odd
shaped lead container that was used to hold a source. Shrug

It's not holding on to those photons any more than your eyes are holding
on to the light they've received.

But if its magnetic..its not DU.

I remember touring Fermilab in Illinois when I was in high school
(advanced physics class field trip). They showed us two blocks of
astonishingly dense material, I think it was tungsten. roughly brick
sized and could barely move 'em.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:50:34 GMT, "Karl Vorwerk"
wrote:

I had one when I was a kid but never had the fancy batteries for it.
Karl

All mine take D batteries, or self charge (dosimeters) using the
reader which uses..a D battery.

Gunner


"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:04:28 GMT, Gunner wrote:

There are many true stories of items that were low level radioactive
being found at scrap yards and so forth. DU is/was used as trim
weights in helicopter blades and so forth, and have been found.

OK, I can't be the _only_ one that has a geiger counter in the basement,
right?

I collect lead for bullet casting..and have found more than one odd
shaped lead container that was used to hold a source. Shrug

It's not holding on to those photons any more than your eyes are holding
on to the light they've received.

But if its magnetic..its not DU.

I remember touring Fermilab in Illinois when I was in high school
(advanced physics class field trip). They showed us two blocks of
astonishingly dense material, I think it was tungsten. roughly brick
sized and could barely move 'em.





"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:00:35 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:50:34 GMT, "Karl Vorwerk"
wrote:

I had one when I was a kid but never had the fancy batteries for it.
Karl

All mine take D batteries, or self charge (dosimeters) using the
reader which uses..a D battery.


Mine takes 2 or 3 9-volt batteries. Came from England. I was working
on nuclear imaging cameras over there, we moved the operation here, and
all the tooling and equipment got boxed up and sent over. This one
wasn't type-certified in the US, so it had to be made to go away. I
took care of that aspect of it.

A year ago or so I did a survey of household items and their radiation
levels, it was kinda surprising. Ah, here it is: (thanks google)
Radiation survey of everyday objects:

Background radiation, 4 sites inside house: 1.5 Counts per Second (CPS)
Background radiation, 4 sites outside house: 1.5 CPS
4 over-ripe bananas, sensor in contact with skin: 3 CPS
Clean diapers: 1.5 CPS (no detectable radiation; same as background)
Dirty diapers, measured at top of diaper pail: 2 CPS (suspect banana
involvement)
6 month old kid: 1.5 CPS plus drool and two giggles
"First Alert" smoke detector, with Americium goodness: 50 CPS on surface
10 year old Trijicon (Tritium) gunsights on Glock 19: 1.5 CPS
Granite boulder, roughly 1 meter in diameter. Pink: 4 CPS
Black: 3 CPS
Blue/black boulder of unknown ignious type: 1.5 CPS
Garden soil: 1.5 CPS

Obviously this is only a slightly scientific survey, but shows some
interesting non-background results.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:00:35 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:50:34 GMT, "Karl Vorwerk"
wrote:

I had one when I was a kid but never had the fancy batteries for it.
Karl

All mine take D batteries, or self charge (dosimeters) using the
reader which uses..a D battery.

Gunner

Anybody know how these work? Is there a solid-state replacement for
a GM tube that works on low voltage?

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
Anybody know how these work? Is there a solid-state replacement for
a GM tube that works on low voltage?

A special version of static RAM will do that. RAM is usually passivated and
also shielded by a glass layer that's supposed to suppress "cosmic ray" hits
that destroy the contents of cells. Without the shielding, the contents
will dump proportionally to the amount of radiation received.

I _don't_ know if any commercial devices are built on this principle,
though.

LLoyd

Don Foreman wrote:

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:00:35 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:50:34 GMT, "Karl Vorwerk"
wrote:


I had one when I was a kid but never had the fancy batteries for it.
Karl


All mine take D batteries, or self charge (dosimeters) using the
reader which uses..a D battery.

Gunner


Anybody know how these work? Is there a solid-state replacement for
a GM tube that works on low voltage?


I recall pocket dosimeters which had a thin conducting vane in them
which, when charged to a moderately high voltage got repelled from a
like charged stationary vane and sprang away from it. The dosimeter
module was transparent so you could see the vanes and was filled with a
gas similar to a geiger counter tube. When ionizing radiation made the
gas conductive the charge on the vanes was leaked off and they moved
closer together. How close they got was a measure of the total radiation
received since they'd been given a "full charge". (Thus, they were fail
safe if the charge leaked off through defective insulation or moisture.)

Back in the "Duck and cover" days, circa 1950, I remember building a
radiation monitor which was nothing more than an NE-51 neon bulb biased
at just below it's firing voltage. Radiation would make it discharge and
produce "clicks" in a pair of high impedance headphones connected to it.
I could set it off with an old wind up alarm clock which had a
"radium" dial and hands.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 10:28:09 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:00:35 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:50:34 GMT, "Karl Vorwerk"
wrote:

I had one when I was a kid but never had the fancy batteries for it.
Karl

All mine take D batteries, or self charge (dosimeters) using the
reader which uses..a D battery.

Gunner

Anybody know how these work? Is there a solid-state replacement for
a GM tube that works on low voltage?


Start here...

http://www.radmeters4u.com/

Then go here

http://www.nukalert.com/

then here

http://www.nextag.com/buyer/outpdir....ation+detector

http://cgi.ebay.com/RADIATION-DETECT...cmd ZViewItem


Also note this..

http://www.sciencekit.com/category.a...A_pn_E_6385000
http://www.gdr.org/spiderwortdefon.htm

If you like building things..
http://www.blackcatsystems.com/science/radiation.html
http://www.nfinity.com/~exile/electro.htm
http://www.techlib.com/science/ion.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/Scintillation-Ra...cmd ZViewItem


btw...if stocking a "radiation pill" stock potassium IODATE rather
than potassium Iodide. The latter is nasty nasty nasty tasting..you
will not be sure which dose is worse....

Gunner




"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:50:00 GMT, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
Anybody know how these work? Is there a solid-state replacement for
a GM tube that works on low voltage?

A special version of static RAM will do that. RAM is usually passivated and
also shielded by a glass layer that's supposed to suppress "cosmic ray" hits
that destroy the contents of cells. Without the shielding, the contents
will dump proportionally to the amount of radiation received.

I _don't_ know if any commercial devices are built on this principle,
though.

LLoyd

http://www.ird-inc.com/

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

According to Don Foreman :

[ ... Geiger counters ... ]

Anybody know how these work?

Essentially, it is a cylindrical metal electrode surrounding a
central electrode, in a low pressure (near vacuum) gas (argon, possibly?)

A high voltage is applied across it, somewhat below the level at
which it will conduct on its own across the gap between the outer
electrode and the central one.

When an energetic particle (radiation) enters the zone between
the electrodes, it ionizes the gas to shorten the path, and a momentary
arc jumps across. The current which it represents is amplified to the
headphones (if any) plus integrated for the meter.

Note that the better tubes have a very thin window of quartz to
let the electrons through (beta particles, IIRC). The Alpha particles
and others can penetrate the metal side walls. My fancy Geiger counter
has a window which flips aside from the probe for that use. The probe
is used on the two most sensitive ranges. The other two ranges use a
much smaller Geiger tube with a known thickness of metal housing between
it and the outside (there is a special dent marking that spot for high
level measurements).

Is there a solid-state replacement for
a GM tube that works on low voltage?

Well ... a scintillation counter uses a crystal which emits tiny
flashes of light whenever struck by an energetic particle, and those
flashes are detected and amplified by a photomultipler tube (still needs
high voltage, though not as high). It *might* (these days) be possible
to use a solid state photosensor and amplifier -- I'm not sure whether
the light levels are sufficient for those, however. And I *think* that
the cost of the crystal is higher than the cost of the photomultiplier
tube and the associated electronics.

I hope that this helps.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
ervers.com...
Note that the better tubes have a very thin window of quartz to
let the electrons through (beta particles, IIRC). The Alpha particles
and others can penetrate the metal side walls.

Nope. GM tubes cannot detect alpha particles, even though an alpha can
cause ionization. An alpha particle is capable of being stopped by a 5-mil
thickness of ordinary paper. Any alpha particles detected by a GM tube
originate inside the tube.

The "alpha hits" that memory chips used to be subject to were from alpha
particles generated inside the IC package as secondary radiation from gamma
hits.

LLoyd

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:01:52 +0000, (DoN.
Nichols) wrote:

Well ... a scintillation counter uses a crystal which emits tiny
flashes of light whenever struck by an energetic particle, and those
flashes are detected and amplified by a photomultipler tube (still needs
high voltage, though not as high). It *might* (these days) be possible
to use a solid state photosensor and amplifier -- I'm not sure whether
the light levels are sufficient for those, however. And I *think* that
the cost of the crystal is higher than the cost of the photomultiplier
tube and the associated electronics.


The crystals are like $15 on ebay

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

According to Gunner :
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:01:52 +0000, (DoN.
Nichols) wrote:

[ ... ]

the light levels are sufficient for those, however. And I *think* that
the cost of the crystal is higher than the cost of the photomultiplier
tube and the associated electronics.


The crystals are like $15 on ebay

O.K. So much for what I thought.

Thanks,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:00:35 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:50:34 GMT, "Karl Vorwerk"
wrote:


I had one when I was a kid but never had the fancy batteries for it.
Karl


All mine take D batteries, or self charge (dosimeters) using the
reader which uses..a D battery.

Gunner


Anybody know how these work? Is there a solid-state replacement for
a GM tube that works on low voltage?



The ones I have worked on at PSU had a DC to DC converter to make the
high voltage required for a GM tube.
...lew...

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:33:10 +0000, (DoN.
Nichols) wrote:

According to Gunner :
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:01:52 +0000, (DoN.
Nichols) wrote:

[ ... ]

the light levels are sufficient for those, however. And I *think* that
the cost of the crystal is higher than the cost of the photomultiplier
tube and the associated electronics.


The crystals are like $15 on ebay

O.K. So much for what I thought.

Thanks,
DoN.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Scintillation-Ra...cm dZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Scintillation-Ra...cmd ZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ZnS-Ag-scintilla...QQcmdZViewItem

Gunner



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

According to Gunner :
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 18:33:10 +0000, (DoN.
Nichols) wrote:

[ ... prices of scintillation crystals ... ]

The crystals are like $15 on ebay

O.K. So much for what I thought.

Thanks,
DoN.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Scintillation-Ra...cm dZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Scintillation-Ra...cmd ZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ZnS-Ag-scintilla...QQcmdZViewItem

Thanks. Now all I have to do is decide whether I really want to
build one before the auctions close.

Or perhaps I should leave them for the one who asked the
original questions,

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

My CD V-720 Fallout Detection Meter - Yellow with meter and cool reverse handle -
uses two D's for the Ion chamber - and is capable of 0-5, 0-50, 0-500 R/h.
Oak Ridge called it a CDV-720 Ion Chamber survey meter -

It is powered up and in standby in the shop. Routinely scan bulk metal that I get
because it might come from anywhere - and the scrap for it from anywhere.
Some from China. So far so good. Not that I'm really worried - it is just nice to
have a toy like this since I was in Physics myself.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:50:34 GMT, "Karl Vorwerk"
wrote:


I had one when I was a kid but never had the fancy batteries for it.
Karl


All mine take D batteries, or self charge (dosimeters) using the
reader which uses..a D battery.

Gunner



"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 17:04:28 GMT, Gunner wrote:


There are many true stories of items that were low level radioactive
being found at scrap yards and so forth. DU is/was used as trim
weights in helicopter blades and so forth, and have been found.

OK, I can't be the _only_ one that has a geiger counter in the basement,
right?


I collect lead for bullet casting..and have found more than one odd
shaped lead container that was used to hold a source. Shrug

It's not holding on to those photons any more than your eyes are holding
on to the light they've received.


But if its magnetic..its not DU.

I remember touring Fermilab in Illinois when I was in high school
(advanced physics class field trip). They showed us two blocks of
astonishingly dense material, I think it was tungsten. roughly brick
sized and could barely move 'em.





"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

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Sounds like a survey around here is overdue.

One thing I did test was the Naval bronze Port holes from a ship that was
at Bikini - It was rather clean as I recall. I'll have to make a table and
check out the odd ball stuff - Telescope and camera lenses - rare earth -
and hum - how do I do myself - Binocs looking at meter at a distance - then
get up close and see if there is an step up. Hum - worked and lived in a
stones throw of blue pool coolant pond. But then I was young...

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Dave Hinz wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:00:35 GMT, Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:50:34 GMT, "Karl Vorwerk"
wrote:


I had one when I was a kid but never had the fancy batteries for it.
Karl


All mine take D batteries, or self charge (dosimeters) using the
reader which uses..a D battery.



Mine takes 2 or 3 9-volt batteries. Came from England. I was working
on nuclear imaging cameras over there, we moved the operation here, and
all the tooling and equipment got boxed up and sent over. This one
wasn't type-certified in the US, so it had to be made to go away. I
took care of that aspect of it.

A year ago or so I did a survey of household items and their radiation
levels, it was kinda surprising. Ah, here it is: (thanks google)
Radiation survey of everyday objects:

Background radiation, 4 sites inside house: 1.5 Counts per Second (CPS)
Background radiation, 4 sites outside house: 1.5 CPS
4 over-ripe bananas, sensor in contact with skin: 3 CPS
Clean diapers: 1.5 CPS (no detectable radiation; same as background)
Dirty diapers, measured at top of diaper pail: 2 CPS (suspect banana
involvement)
6 month old kid: 1.5 CPS plus drool and two giggles
"First Alert" smoke detector, with Americium goodness: 50 CPS on surface
10 year old Trijicon (Tritium) gunsights on Glock 19: 1.5 CPS
Granite boulder, roughly 1 meter in diameter. Pink: 4 CPS
Black: 3 CPS
Blue/black boulder of unknown ignious type: 1.5 CPS
Garden soil: 1.5 CPS

Obviously this is only a slightly scientific survey, but shows some
interesting non-background results.


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Mine is 3 volt. Doesn't look like much of a HF osc IIRC.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Don Foreman wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 11:00:35 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 09:50:34 GMT, "Karl Vorwerk"
wrote:


I had one when I was a kid but never had the fancy batteries for it.
Karl


All mine take D batteries, or self charge (dosimeters) using the
reader which uses..a D battery.

Gunner


Anybody know how these work? Is there a solid-state replacement for
a GM tube that works on low voltage?

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Close - not glass layer - it is a emulsion that is spun onto the surface of the
whole wafer at a time. It is a sponge to alpha particles in ceramic packages
and while it is nice to think a cosmic ray can be held back by anything - they
zing through anything. Alpha hits are fixed but random high energy particles are not.
Martin - former semiconductor debug and alpha hit test expert consultant to IBM Test
in Bordeaux France.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...

Anybody know how these work? Is there a solid-state replacement for
a GM tube that works on low voltage?


A special version of static RAM will do that. RAM is usually passivated and
also shielded by a glass layer that's supposed to suppress "cosmic ray" hits
that destroy the contents of cells. Without the shielding, the contents
will dump proportionally to the amount of radiation received.

I _don't_ know if any commercial devices are built on this principle,
though.

LLoyd



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According to Martin H. Eastburn :
Sounds like a survey around here is overdue.

One thing I did test was the Naval bronze Port holes from a ship that was
at Bikini - It was rather clean as I recall. I'll have to make a table and
check out the odd ball stuff - Telescope and camera lenses - rare earth -

I know that some of the lenses used in the manufacture of the
Starlight Scopes (Night Vision scopes) for the Army were mildly
radioactive.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 21:37:45 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

Close - not glass layer - it is a emulsion that is spun onto the surface of the
whole wafer at a time. It is a sponge to alpha particles in ceramic packages
and while it is nice to think a cosmic ray can be held back by anything - they
zing through anything. Alpha hits are fixed but random high energy particles are not.
Martin - former semiconductor debug and alpha hit test expert consultant to IBM Test
in Bordeaux France.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder


I think Tim May did something similar at Intel

Gunner



Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...

Anybody know how these work? Is there a solid-state replacement for
a GM tube that works on low voltage?


A special version of static RAM will do that. RAM is usually passivated and
also shielded by a glass layer that's supposed to suppress "cosmic ray" hits
that destroy the contents of cells. Without the shielding, the contents
will dump proportionally to the amount of radiation received.

I _don't_ know if any commercial devices are built on this principle,
though.

LLoyd



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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----



"A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them;
the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
- Proverbs 22:3

In article ,
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote:

My CD V-720 Fallout Detection Meter - Yellow with meter and cool reverse
handle -
uses two D's for the Ion chamber - and is capable of 0-5, 0-50, 0-500 R/h.
Oak Ridge called it a CDV-720 Ion Chamber survey meter -

It is powered up and in standby in the shop. Routinely scan bulk metal that
I get
because it might come from anywhere - and the scrap for it from anywhere.
Some from China. So far so good. Not that I'm really worried - it is just
nice to
have a toy like this since I was in Physics myself.

You have a War meter, it is not sensitive enough for the task. You need
a survey meter to read lower levels.

--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/