http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml
Kids Build Soybean-Fueled Car

The star at last week's Philadelphia Auto Show wasn't a sports car or
an economy car. It was a sports-economy car - one that combines
performance and practicality under one hood.

But as CBS News correspondent Steve Hartman reports in this week's
Assignment America, the car that buyers have been waiting decades
[for] comes from an unexpected source and runs on soybean bio-diesel
fuel to boot.

A car that can go from zero to 60 in four seconds and get more than 50
miles to the gallon would be enough to pique any driver's interest. So
who do we have to thank for it. Ford? GM? Toyota? No - just Victor,
David, Cheeseborough, Bruce, and Kosi, five kids from the auto shop
program at West Philadelphia High School.

The five kids, along with a handful of schoolmates, built the
soybean-fueled car as an after-school project. It took them more than
a year - rummaging for parts, configuring wires and learning as they
went. As teacher Simon Hauger notes, these kids weren't exactly the
cream of the academic crop.

"We have a number of high school dropouts," he says. "We have a number
that have been removed for disciplinary reasons and they end up with
us."

One of the Fab Five, Kosi Harmon, was in a gang at his old school -
and he was a terrible student. The car project has changed all that.

"I was just getting by with the skin of my teeth, C's and D's," he
says. "I came here, and now I'm a straight-A student."

To Hauger, the soybean-powered car shows what kids - any kids - can do
when they get the chance.

"If you give kids that have been stereotyped as not being able to do
anything an opportunity to do something great, they'll step up," he
says.

Stepping up is something the big automakers have yet to do. They're
still in the early stages of marketing hybrid cars while playing
catch-up to the Bad News Bears of auto shop.

"We made this work," says Hauger. "We're not geniuses. So why aren't
they doing it?"

Kosi thinks he knows why. The answer, he says, is the big oil
companies.

"They're making billions upon billions of dollars," he says. "And when
this car sells, that'll go down — to low billions upon billions."

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:45:22 GMT, Gunner
wrote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml
Kids Build Soybean-Fueled Car
snip
============================
For an eye opener google "diesel cars" new sale You will
discover there is a whole series of apparently quite good diesel
cars, light trucks, vans, and crossover SUVs available outside
the U.S. from the major manufacturers that are just not being
imported including several high performance models. I don't
know if these vehicles are not available in the U.S. because of
some regulatory hurdle, marketing inertia, oil company pressure,
or the sun spot problem.

Google on diesel SVO OR "straight vegetable oil" conversion"
and you will discover a number of European firms that make kits
to convert these vehicles to run on straight vegetable oil and
blends.

The tendency of the U.S. government and people to blame the
problems they themselves first create and then perpetuate on
outside and malignant forces are reaching bazaar and dangerous
levels not seen since the last "witch hunt." As Julius Caesar
says in Shakespear's play "The fault lies not in the stars, dear
Brutus, but in ourselves."

(Note to Cliff: This appears to be a bipartisan effort.)
Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
For an eye opener google "diesel cars" new sale You will
discover there is a whole series of apparently quite good diesel
cars, light trucks, vans, and crossover SUVs available outside
the U.S. from the major manufacturers that are just not being
imported including several high performance models. I don't
know if these vehicles are not available in the U.S. because of
some regulatory hurdle, marketing inertia, oil company pressure,
or the sun spot problem.

Google on diesel SVO OR "straight vegetable oil" conversion"
and you will discover a number of European firms that make kits
to convert these vehicles to run on straight vegetable oil and
blends.

The tendency of the U.S. government and people to blame the
problems they themselves first create and then perpetuate on
outside and malignant forces are reaching bazaar and dangerous
levels not seen since the last "witch hunt." As Julius Caesar
says in Shakespear's play "The fault lies not in the stars, dear
Brutus, but in ourselves."

Yabut have any of these been Blessed by the EPA?

"RAM³" wrote:

The tendency of the U.S. government and people to blame the
problems they themselves first create and then perpetuate on
outside and malignant forces are reaching bazaar and dangerous
levels not seen since the last "witch hunt." As Julius Caesar
says in Shakespear's play "The fault lies not in the stars, dear
Brutus, but in ourselves."

Yabut have any of these been Blessed by the EPA?

As I understand the situation, the stumbling block to wider use of
diesel vehicles in the US is getting the sulphur out of the fuel. I have
read that the transport industry is fighting the removal quite actively
as they are concerned that they will have shortened life of their
injector pumps. In turn, some of the auto maker will not put their
vehicles into the marketplace as there are concerns about the high
sulphur diesel causing problems with, among other things, emissions
control equipment.

Canada has been running low sulphur fuel for quite a while, and there
is a move to set levels even lower.

To judge from the number of posts to some of the diesel forums, esp.
Volkswagen related ones, there are a fair number of VW diesels bing sold
in the US, though there does not seem to be the acceptance in the market
that they find elswhere. As many of them are posting from California, I
would have to figure that the cars are meeting some emissions standards,
unless there are exemptions for diesel vehicles.

My read on the story is that the reporter is one of those half retarded
souls that can barely figure out how a toaster works, and that he/she/it
is shocked that a bunch of guys that get poor grades in academic classes
should somehow be able to make something of themselves. A bit insulting,
really.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

amdx wrote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml
Kids Build Soybean-Fueled Car

The star at last week's Philadelphia Auto Show wasn't a sports car or
an economy car. It was a sports-economy car - one that combines
performance and practicality under one hood.


A car that can go from zero to 60 in four seconds and get more than 50
miles to the gallon would be enough to pique any driver's interest.

0 to 60 in 4 seconds? Sounds improbable to me!


Looks unlikely according to the list here too. They would be out
accelerating a Dodge Viper to do that.

http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html

Cheers
Trevor Jones

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:26:47 -0700, Trevor Jones
wrote:
snip
My read on the story is that the reporter is one of those half retarded
souls that can barely figure out how a toaster works, and that he/she/it
is shocked that a bunch of guys that get poor grades in academic classes
should somehow be able to make something of themselves. A bit insulting,
really.
snip
There are different areas of intelegence and expertese. The
error is to assume your area of expertese is the only one.
Reporters because they are very good at language seem to be prone
to this. This is also the major problem with the
no-child-left-behind program whereby everyone will go to college
and be a tax accountant or stock broker.

I point out in passing that bio-diesel and SVO [straight
vegetable oil] are inherently low [and in many cases no] sulphur
fuels. I understand that the oil change intervals can be
extended for diesel engines using these fuels because of the low
sulphur [acid] build up in the oil. Again, our failure to
implement this solution shows the desire to do nothing and blame
"outside influences" for our problems.

A question worth asking in view of the huge profits made by the
oil companies over the last few months is what are they doing
with the money? They are not paying dividends and do not seem to
be reinvesting any of it back into renewable domestic fuels.
Remember in the 70s when this question came up and they were all
going to reinvent fuel production and invest in newer more
efficient refineries? The only think I know they did was buy
Zilog [ computer chip manufacturer that was Intel's big rival]
and precede to put them out of business by management.

Does the phrase "don't p*** on my leg and then tell me its
raining" resonate? Fool me once shame on you -- fool me twice
shame on me.




Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

Gunner wrote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml
Kids Build Soybean-Fueled Car

The star at last week's Philadelphia Auto Show wasn't a sports car or
an economy car. It was a sports-economy car - one that combines
performance and practicality under one hood.

But as CBS News correspondent Steve Hartman reports in this week's
Assignment America, the car that buyers have been waiting decades
[for] comes from an unexpected source and runs on soybean bio-diesel
fuel to boot.

A car that can go from zero to 60 in four seconds and get more than 50
miles to the gallon would be enough to pique any driver's interest. So
who do we have to thank for it. Ford? GM? Toyota? No - just Victor,
David, Cheeseborough, Bruce, and Kosi, five kids from the auto shop
program at West Philadelphia High School.

The five kids, along with a handful of schoolmates, built the
soybean-fueled car as an after-school project. It took them more than
a year - rummaging for parts, configuring wires and learning as they
went. As teacher Simon Hauger notes, these kids weren't exactly the
cream of the academic crop.

"We have a number of high school dropouts," he says. "We have a number
that have been removed for disciplinary reasons and they end up with
us."

One of the Fab Five, Kosi Harmon, was in a gang at his old school -
and he was a terrible student. The car project has changed all that.

"I was just getting by with the skin of my teeth, C's and D's," he
says. "I came here, and now I'm a straight-A student."

To Hauger, the soybean-powered car shows what kids - any kids - can do
when they get the chance.

"If you give kids that have been stereotyped as not being able to do
anything an opportunity to do something great, they'll step up," he
says.

Stepping up is something the big automakers have yet to do. They're
still in the early stages of marketing hybrid cars while playing
catch-up to the Bad News Bears of auto shop.

"We made this work," says Hauger. "We're not geniuses. So why aren't
they doing it?"

Kosi thinks he knows why. The answer, he says, is the big oil
companies.

"They're making billions upon billions of dollars," he says. "And when
this car sells, that'll go down — to low billions upon billions."


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner


FWIW, I read recently that to produce even a noticable scratch in fossil
oil consumption by using soy based fuel would require growing soy on
nearly all the farmable land area in the USA.

On a similar note. I just finished reading an article in this month's
Discover magazine that the Carthage, Missouri plant which has been
converting waste turkey body parts and pig fat (Received from ConAgra
meat processing plants) into diesel fuel. The article said they were
having problems with complaints about the odor from the plant which was
built just a couple of blocks away from residences, and wished they'd
sited the place in the boonies.

This link says they're trying two million bucks worth of new air
scrubbers to reduce the smell.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...l/14040813.htm



--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Pete wrote:
Gunner this is article about the soy car is interesting. The electrical
utility that I am retiring from at the end of the month has started using
deep fryer fats mixed into the diesel to fuel the trucks, it is working

soybean fueled vehicles have been around for years

http://www.firstshotphoto.com/

:-)

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:45:22 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml
Kids Build Soybean-Fueled Car

snip
============================
For an eye opener google "diesel cars" new sale You will
discover there is a whole series of apparently quite good diesel
cars, light trucks, vans, and crossover SUVs available outside
the U.S. from the major manufacturers that are just not being
imported including several high performance models. I don't
know if these vehicles are not available in the U.S. because of
some regulatory hurdle, marketing inertia, oil company pressure,
or the sun spot problem.

Google on diesel SVO OR "straight vegetable oil" conversion"
and you will discover a number of European firms that make kits
to convert these vehicles to run on straight vegetable oil and
blends.

The tendency of the U.S. government and people to blame the
problems they themselves first create and then perpetuate on
outside and malignant forces are reaching bazaar and dangerous
levels not seen since the last "witch hunt." As Julius Caesar
says in Shakespear's play "The fault lies not in the stars, dear
Brutus, but in ourselves."

(Note to Cliff: This appears to be a bipartisan effort.)
Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

I love using diesel vehicles and finally found ONE mid power north
american diesel.

the other options are HUGE trucks or small cars like the jetta

the Jeep liberty seems to be the only north american vehicle with a
midsized diesel. 150ish Hp instead of 300 in the trucks and -100 for the
cars

I dont see any good reason to not be pusing diesel especially when you
CAN run them on 100% renewable fuels as opposed to fossil fuels

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:14:15 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

FWIW, I read recently that to produce even a noticable scratch in fossil
oil consumption by using soy based fuel would require growing soy on
nearly all the farmable land area in the USA.

That's assuming we only use soy oil as a feed stock. It still sounds
overstated, but I won't argue too much since I can't back it up.

But BD can be made from any veggie oil or (as you pointed out) animal
fat. In arid climates, jatropha (a bush/small tree) seems to be a
promising source. The wave of the future may be algae, which could be
grown anywhere the sun shines, but so far the limiting factor seems to
be extracting the oil from the plant. There seem to be several people
working on it, so they aren't talking much about the details out of
concern for tipping off the competition.

I guess some of this depends on what you call a "noticeable scratch."
I've heard that all the waste fryer oil we currently produce could
account for 3% of diesel usage (maybe I've got that wrong, but there's
definitely a lot of it out there). That isn't much in terms of GDP or
import levels, but I'd call it a noticeable amount. And it doesn't
even require new oil to be produced. A drop in the bucket is better
than none. Now, if we put a concerted effort into R&D as we have for
petrol, ther's no telling how far it could go, but I think it's best
not to view BD as a total replacement for petrol. We're going to have
to look at multiple solutions for a very big problem. BD is, IMO, a
step inthe right direction.

td

"Brent Philion" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:45:22 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml
Kids Build Soybean-Fueled Car

snip
============================
For an eye opener google "diesel cars" new sale You will
discover there is a whole series of apparently quite good diesel
cars, light trucks, vans, and crossover SUVs available outside
the U.S. from the major manufacturers that are just not being
imported including several high performance models. I don't
know if these vehicles are not available in the U.S. because of
some regulatory hurdle, marketing inertia, oil company pressure,
or the sun spot problem.

Google on diesel SVO OR "straight vegetable oil" conversion"
and you will discover a number of European firms that make kits
to convert these vehicles to run on straight vegetable oil and
blends.

The tendency of the U.S. government and people to blame the
problems they themselves first create and then perpetuate on
outside and malignant forces are reaching bazaar and dangerous
levels not seen since the last "witch hunt." As Julius Caesar
says in Shakespear's play "The fault lies not in the stars, dear
Brutus, but in ourselves."

(Note to Cliff: This appears to be a bipartisan effort.)
Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not the things
which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic. «The Power of Words»,
in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

I love using diesel vehicles and finally found ONE mid power north
american diesel.

the other options are HUGE trucks or small cars like the jetta

the Jeep liberty seems to be the only north american vehicle with a
midsized diesel. 150ish Hp instead of 300 in the trucks and -100 for the
cars

I dont see any good reason to not be pusing diesel especially when you CAN
run them on 100% renewable fuels as opposed to fossil fuels

How about because when it gets cold biodiesel doesn't burn? That's why all
the biodiesel out there is going into mixtures with regular diesel at no
more than 15%. To use 100% biodiesel you have to address the cold weather
operations problem.

Steve.

F. George McDuffee wrote:

A question worth asking in view of the huge profits made by the
oil companies over the last few months is what are they doing
with the money? They are not paying dividends




Unka George
(George McDuffee)

Odd that they don't pay dividends. I wonder what the hell was the two
checks I received on Sat. from Exxon-Mobil and BP.

Our junior Senator Maria Cantwell from Washington State wants to put a
excessive profit tax on the oil producers. Somehow she does not want
to put an excessive profit tax on software companies as Microsoft that
make a much higher percentage profit on capital invested.

Where the hell were you five years ago when oil companies were not
making very much money on the capital invested.


Dan

Trevor Jones wrote:

amdx wrote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml
Kids Build Soybean-Fueled Car

The star at last week's Philadelphia Auto Show wasn't a sports car or
an economy car. It was a sports-economy car - one that combines
performance and practicality under one hood.


A car that can go from zero to 60 in four seconds and get more than 50
miles to the gallon would be enough to pique any driver's interest.

0 to 60 in 4 seconds? Sounds improbable to me!


Looks unlikely according to the list here too. They would be out
accelerating a Dodge Viper to do that.

http://www.albeedigital.com/supercou...0-60times.html

Cheers
Trevor Jones

probably 0 to 60 km.

John

"RAM³" wrote in message
.. .
"Treedweller" wrote in message
...

I guess some of this depends on what you call a "noticeable scratch."
I've heard that all the waste fryer oil we currently produce could
account for 3% of diesel usage (maybe I've got that wrong, but there's
definitely a lot of it out there). That isn't much in terms of GDP or
import levels, but I'd call it a noticeable amount. And it doesn't
even require new oil to be produced.

Are you *SURE* that it wouldn't require any "new oil"?

Even when you consider that all of the machinery and fertilizer required
to plant the soy beans, cultivate the soy plants, harvest the soy beans,
process the soy beans into meal and oil, process the raw soy oil into
something usable, and deliver the processed soy oil to a bulk distribution
location are ALL based upon/fuelled and lubricated by petroleum?

Perpetual Motion has been a long-sought dream that, even with today's
superconductors, is a long way from practicality but is closer than the
veggie-fuel solution.

Now, if someone could design a lightweight, collision-proof, well-shielded
nuclear power plant that could be placed (along with an electric motor) in
a car's engine compartment...
You didn't read his post very carefully- he was commenting on the use of
fryer oil. But WRT soy-based diesel, there is a large energy expenditure,
although not as bad as ethanol, which by some estimates costs more in BTUs
to make than it delivers.

RAM³ wrote:
"Treedweller" wrote in message
...

I guess some of this depends on what you call a "noticeable scratch."
I've heard that all the waste fryer oil we currently produce could
account for 3% of diesel usage (maybe I've got that wrong, but there's
definitely a lot of it out there). That isn't much in terms of GDP or
import levels, but I'd call it a noticeable amount. And it doesn't
even require new oil to be produced.


Are you *SURE* that it wouldn't require any "new oil"?

Even when you consider that all of the machinery and fertilizer required to
plant the soy beans, cultivate the soy plants, harvest the soy beans,
process the soy beans into meal and oil, process the raw soy oil into
something usable, and deliver the processed soy oil to a bulk distribution
location are ALL based upon/fuelled and lubricated by petroleum?

Perpetual Motion has been a long-sought dream that, even with today's
superconductors, is a long way from practicality but is closer than the
veggie-fuel solution.

Now, if someone could design a lightweight, collision-proof, well-shielded
nuclear power plant that could be placed (along with an electric motor) in a
car's engine compartment...

OOPS pressed send too soon

Farm diesel and farm implements need anything but high quality fuels.

Its not unfeasible to drastically cut fossil fuel usage.

DO i see ships converting to biodiesel anytime soon, No i dont think
enough places produce enough biodiesel to deal with hundreds of bulk
carriers or container ships whose fuel consumption is measured in the
tens of tonnes per day. Why not charge user fees to road users to
encourage rail transport and disocurage road use.

Rail is far more efficient at getting large weight long distances than
transports. the onlt reason its not cheaper is because the railways own
the rails and pay for upkeep whereas the truckers down own or pay for
the road.

If youre looking at whether it can be done without any new oil

Diesel can be removed from the equation

Motor Oil and Grease can be synthesized

Roads can be made form concrete.

it can be done without new oil but its difficult and not necessarily
feasible at this point. But it IS possible to remove a LOT of fossil oil
form the equation without huge costs

if most of the diesel fuel is removed then youre down to the oilchange
and grease in the machinery and the tar in the road

if you use rail the "tar in the road" becomes far less per use too to
grow that many tonnes of crops

No need to remove it just use less and discourage hauling the 300hp V8
SUV out to take 2 60 pound kids to a restaurant and that type of
needless fuel consumption

RAM³ wrote:
"Treedweller" wrote in message
...

I guess some of this depends on what you call a "noticeable scratch."
I've heard that all the waste fryer oil we currently produce could
account for 3% of diesel usage (maybe I've got that wrong, but there's
definitely a lot of it out there). That isn't much in terms of GDP or
import levels, but I'd call it a noticeable amount. And it doesn't
even require new oil to be produced.


Are you *SURE* that it wouldn't require any "new oil"?

Even when you consider that all of the machinery and fertilizer required to
plant the soy beans, cultivate the soy plants, harvest the soy beans,
process the soy beans into meal and oil, process the raw soy oil into
something usable, and deliver the processed soy oil to a bulk distribution
location are ALL based upon/fuelled and lubricated by petroleum?

Perpetual Motion has been a long-sought dream that, even with today's
superconductors, is a long way from practicality but is closer than the
veggie-fuel solution.

Now, if someone could design a lightweight, collision-proof, well-shielded
nuclear power plant that could be placed (along with an electric motor) in a
car's engine compartment...

Brent Philion writes:

Its not unfeasible to drastically cut fossil fuel usage.

Photosynthesis is an inherently inefficient chemical process for creating
fuel, a fool's errand with no hope of ever being economical. It may pay to
reuse waste oil, but that is a very limited volume of product.

"Brent Philion" wrote in message
...
OOPS pressed send too soon

Farm diesel and farm implements need anything but high quality fuels.

Right! All they need is the same quality of #2 Diesel that's required for
OTR truck tractors and locomotives.


Its not unfeasible to drastically cut fossil fuel usage.

Sure! Prohibit privately-owned passenger cars and non-Diesel/non-JPx trucks,
boats, and airplanes.


DO i see ships converting to biodiesel anytime soon, No i dont think
enough places produce enough biodiesel to deal with hundreds of bulk
carriers or container ships whose fuel consumption is measured in the tens
of tonnes per day. Why not charge user fees to road users to encourage
rail transport and disocurage road use.

The Governments [State AND Federal] already charge these fees.


Rail is far more efficient at getting large weight long distances than
transports. the onlt reason its not cheaper is because the railways own
the rails and pay for upkeep whereas the truckers down own or pay for the
road.

The railroads are ripping up their tracks and selling/abandoning their
rights-of-way even as I type. They've been doing this for over 40 years and
have almost reached the point-of-no-return for even their trans-continental
routes.

OTR trucks replaced railroads because the trucks use the same highways that
the people do whereas the railroads can't relocate their routes to
accomodate the rapid relocations of businesses and industries.

If youre looking at whether it can be done without any new oil

Diesel can be removed from the equation

Gasoline can be removed far more easily.


Motor Oil and Grease can be synthesized

They already are.


Roads can be made form concrete.

They already are, in case you haven't noticed.

The "stuff" used for roofing and road topping is, BTW, unusable for anything
else: it's the residue that's left over from the refining process.


it can be done without new oil but its difficult and not necessarily
feasible at this point. But it IS possible to remove a LOT of fossil oil
form the equation without huge costs

The first step would be to eliminate all plastics - that's where the bulk of
petroleum actually goes.

The second step would be to eliminate gasoline.


if most of the diesel fuel is removed then youre down to the oilchange and
grease in the machinery and the tar in the road

You'd be down to trying to exist upon the produce of your own garden, booby,
since #2 Diesel is the fuel required by all forms of heavy land transport
within North America. Both locomotives and OTR trucks run on it.

You're also forgetting that only a very few farmers [mainly Amish] DON'T use
Diesel-fuelled equipment.

Oyeah - don't forget that the road-building machinery ALSO runs on #2
Diesel, too!


if you use rail the "tar in the road" becomes far less per use too to grow
that many tonnes of crops

See my comment (above) concerning the current state of railroad
rights-of-way.

You're dreaming if you're hoping to see a return to steam locomotives
chugging through every small town and villiage across the USofA.


No need to remove it just use less and discourage hauling the 300hp V8 SUV
out to take 2 60 pound kids to a restaurant and that type of needless fuel
consumption

Like I said: eliminate all plastics, all synthetic fibers - such as Nylon -
based on petroleum, and all gasoline and there won't be any problem. EG

As I said earlier:


Now, if someone could design a lightweight, collision-proof,
well-shielded nuclear power plant that could be placed (along with an
electric motor) in a car's engine compartment...

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 23:06:52 -0500, Brent Philion
wrote:

OOPS pressed send too soon

Farm diesel and farm implements need anything but high quality fuels.

Who told you that?
The diesels that most ag equipment are powered by are designed to use
same fuel as trucks and heavy equipment. They require clean fuel with
a cetane rating of 40. Low quality fuel will kill them quick- we see
the results in our shop when someone cheaps out and tries to run a
modern turbodiesel on old, crappy, 'discount diesel'.

-Carl

I dont see any good reason to not be pusing diesel especially when you CAN
run them on 100% renewable fuels as opposed to fossil fuels

How about because when it gets cold biodiesel doesn't burn? That's why all
the biodiesel out there is going into mixtures with regular diesel at no
more than 15%. To use 100% biodiesel you have to address the cold weather
operations problem.

Steve.



So? Diesel fuel gels and has to be heated in cold weather.


Ron Thompson
On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA

http://www.plansandprojects.com
My hobby pages are he
http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/

Severe stupidity is self correcting, but mild stupidity is rampant in the land.
-Ron Thompson

SteveF wrote:
How about because when it gets cold biodiesel doesn't burn? That's why all
the biodiesel out there is going into mixtures with regular diesel at no
more than 15%. To use 100% biodiesel you have to address the cold weather
operations problem.

Steve.

It burns fine. It gels when its cold and does not flow through the
plumbing worth a darn.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

tens of tonnes per day. Why not charge user fees to road users to
encourage rail transport and disocurage road use.

Rail is far more efficient at getting large weight long distances than
transports. the onlt reason its not cheaper is because the railways own
the rails and pay for upkeep whereas the truckers down own or pay for
the road.
This is straight railroad propaganda. Ever hear of fuel taxes? If it weren't for
the taxes trucks pay, you'd be driving on dirt, or close to it.
Ever hear of railroad bailouts or tax breaks? Rail is considered a defense
industry and is subsidized by the government in the US.


Ron Thompson
On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA

http://www.plansandprojects.com
My hobby pages are he
http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/

Severe stupidity is self correcting, but mild stupidity is rampant in the land.
-Ron Thompson

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 23:06:52 -0500, Brent Philion
wrote:



Its not unfeasible to drastically cut fossil fuel usage.

I've been told of new european turbo diesels in cars getting 110mpg.
havent seen independent figures to confirm this but your idea of
cutting usage as a part of the solution is on the money.

what sort of economy do these veggie oil engines deliver?
what volume of emissions compared to a diesel?

Stealth (I'd love one for an aircraft) Pilot

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 20:01:36 -0500, "SteveF"
wrote:
snip
How about because when it gets cold biodiesel doesn't burn? That's why all
the biodiesel out there is going into mixtures with regular diesel at no
more than 15%. To use 100% biodiesel you have to address the cold weather
operations problem.
snip
This is only a problem when a "complete" solution is attempted in
one leap, i.e. everybody has to use SVO or bio-diesel, all the
time, everywhere.

This is a typical bureaucratic ploy when an organization does not
want to do something because of greed, obstinacy, or the "not
invented here/we didn't think of it first" factor.

There are several solutions:
(1) Have different blends for different areas just like gasoline.
(2) Use SVO and bio-diesel in large, continuous duty diesel
engines such as locomotives and interstate trucks, with light
duty, intermittent operation diesels such as passenger cars
continuing to use #2. SVO and bio-diesel fuel distribution can
then be limited to rail yards and large interstate truck stops.,
minimizing the change-over investment.

Another thing to consider is that the U.S. is more rapidly
running out of money (i.e. the current accounts trade deficit)
than the world is running out of oil. Our choice may not be
between the "good" and the "better," or even the "good" and the
"bad," but between the "bad" and the "worse."


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

On 12 Mar 2006 17:23:30 -0800, "
wrote:
snip
Odd that they don't pay dividends. I wonder what the hell was the two
checks I received on Sat. from Exxon-Mobil and BP.
snip
My bad. Should have said "distributing any significant amount of
their profits as dividends."

Big problem based on what happend the last time there was this
much money sloshing around is the purchase of unrelated
companies, e.g. Zilog, and a general "evaporation" with nothing
to show for it. While energy/fuel is the current major concern,
petroleum is also a major feed stock for many chemical
industries, for example plastics.


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

On 12 Mar 2006 17:23:30 -0800, "
wrote:
snip
Our junior Senator Maria Cantwell from Washington State wants to put a
excessive profit tax on the oil producers. Somehow she does not want
to put an excessive profit tax on software companies as Microsoft that
make a much higher percentage profit on capital invested.
snip
Whether the stock holders' money [i.e. the corporate profits] is
"pi**ed" off by the oil companies or by the government, its still
pi**ed off.

This is why I think there should be a law requiring at least 50%
of all claimed earnings to be distributed as dividends every
year, with the option of a "dividend reinvestment program" [DRIP]
for the people that think the corporation knows how to spend
their money better than they do. [Government does not offer this
option....] This also forces the money back into circulation in
the economy.

Another advantage is this eliminates the creation of [phantom]
earnings ala Enron/Tyco/HealthSouth/WorldCom for more than a year
or two.


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

Regarding concrete roads, the production of cement is highly energy
intensive as the raw ingredients need to be roasted at about 1300C for
the conversion. A number of plants do burn waste products such as tyres
though to ease the fuel cost.

Brent Philion wrote:

OOPS pressed send too soon

Farm diesel and farm implements need anything but high quality fuels.

Its not unfeasible to drastically cut fossil fuel usage.

DO i see ships converting to biodiesel anytime soon, No i dont think
enough places produce enough biodiesel to deal with hundreds of bulk
carriers or container ships whose fuel consumption is measured in the
tens of tonnes per day. Why not charge user fees to road users to
encourage rail transport and disocurage road use.

Rail is far more efficient at getting large weight long distances than
transports. the onlt reason its not cheaper is because the railways
own the rails and pay for upkeep whereas the truckers down own or pay
for the road.

If youre looking at whether it can be done without any new oil

Diesel can be removed from the equation

Motor Oil and Grease can be synthesized

Roads can be made form concrete.

it can be done without new oil but its difficult and not necessarily
feasible at this point. But it IS possible to remove a LOT of fossil
oil form the equation without huge costs

if most of the diesel fuel is removed then youre down to the oilchange
and grease in the machinery and the tar in the road

if you use rail the "tar in the road" becomes far less per use too to
grow that many tonnes of crops

No need to remove it just use less and discourage hauling the 300hp V8
SUV out to take 2 60 pound kids to a restaurant and that type of
needless fuel consumption

RAM³ wrote:

"Treedweller" wrote in message
...

I guess some of this depends on what you call a "noticeable scratch."
I've heard that all the waste fryer oil we currently produce could
account for 3% of diesel usage (maybe I've got that wrong, but there's
definitely a lot of it out there). That isn't much in terms of GDP or
import levels, but I'd call it a noticeable amount. And it doesn't
even require new oil to be produced.



Are you *SURE* that it wouldn't require any "new oil"?

Even when you consider that all of the machinery and fertilizer
required to plant the soy beans, cultivate the soy plants, harvest
the soy beans, process the soy beans into meal and oil, process the
raw soy oil into something usable, and deliver the processed soy oil
to a bulk distribution location are ALL based upon/fuelled and
lubricated by petroleum?

Perpetual Motion has been a long-sought dream that, even with today's
superconductors, is a long way from practicality but is closer than
the veggie-fuel solution.

Now, if someone could design a lightweight, collision-proof,
well-shielded nuclear power plant that could be placed (along with an
electric motor) in a car's engine compartment...

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 22:20:06 -0500, "ATP*"
wrote:
snip
But WRT soy-based diesel, there is a large energy expenditure,
although not as bad as ethanol, which by some estimates costs more in BTUs
to make than it delivers.
snip
This is called entropy or the first law of thermodynamics. You
can't have a perpetual motion machine, i.e. create energy. Thus
this argument [mainly used by people that don't want a solution]
is specious.


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 23:27:19 +0800, Stealth Pilot
wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 23:06:52 -0500, Brent Philion
wrote:

Its not unfeasible to drastically cut fossil fuel usage.

I've been told of new european turbo diesels in cars getting 110mpg.
havent seen independent figures to confirm this but your idea of
cutting usage as a part of the solution is on the money.

what sort of economy do these veggie oil engines deliver?
what volume of emissions compared to a diesel?

Stealth (I'd love one for an aircraft) Pilot
===========
see
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
http://www.dieselveg.com/
http://www.distributiondrive.com/pro...on%20kits.html
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/conversionkits.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html
http://www.bebioenergy.com/straight_vegetable_oil.htm
and a whole bunch more.

The problems are *NOT* technical but social/cultural with a large
amount of obstruction by organizations with a vested [mainly but
not entirely financial] interest in the status quo.



Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On 12 Mar 2006 17:23:30 -0800, "
wrote:
snip

Odd that they don't pay dividends. I wonder what the hell was the two
checks I received on Sat. from Exxon-Mobil and BP.

snip
My bad. Should have said "distributing any significant amount of
their profits as dividends."

Big problem based on what happend the last time there was this
much money sloshing around is the purchase of unrelated
companies, e.g. Zilog, and a general "evaporation" with nothing
to show for it. While energy/fuel is the current major concern,
petroleum is also a major feed stock for many chemical
industries, for example plastics.


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)


This thread is beginning to make me think about a book I'm about half
way through now. (Hell, I'm about half way through about a dozen
different books right now.)

The title is "Collapse" authored by Jared Diamond, the guy who wrote
"Guns, Germs and Steel" a few years ago.

He's studied why some societies have been successful for a long time
while others have failed, and describes the prevalent reasons for the
demise of once thriving societies.

One of the notable failure means has been an overusage of natural
resources by an increasing population, ending up in there being "nothing
fer nobody" left, whereupon people start killing each other to try and
stay alive themselves.

Sound familiar?

I'm heading over to my alma mater tonite for an alumni dinner where
we'll hear some prof tell us what the future looks like for photovoltaic
power generation.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Bad idea! The owners of the company ought to be able to choose what to
do with earnings. Whether to keep the money in the company or take
money out. And they kind of do now, in that they can decide to buy
stock in a company or not.

With your idea, half the money is distributed regardless of whether the
company is in a growth industry or not. Keep the government out of
company financial decisions.


Dan


F. George McDuffee wrote:

This is why I think there should be a law requiring at least 50%
of all claimed earnings to be distributed as dividends every
year, with the option of a "dividend reinvestment program" [DRIP]
for the people that think the corporation knows how to spend
their money better than they do. [Government does not offer this
option....] This also forces the money back into circulation in
the economy.


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 11:27:57 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:
snip
The title is "Collapse" authored by Jared Diamond, the guy who wrote
"Guns, Germs and Steel" a few years ago.

He's studied why some societies have been successful for a long time
while others have failed, and describes the prevalent reasons for the
demise of once thriving societies.

One of the notable failure means has been an overusage of natural
resources by an increasing population, ending up in there being "nothing
fer nobody" left, whereupon people start killing each other to try and
stay alive themselves.
snip
===============
The phrase "tragedy of the commons" is frequently used in this
context. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

While the increase in population results in an increase in
consumption, the larger problem seems to be that the folk wisdom
"take what you need and leave the rest for seed" is ignored.

for elaboration on this see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy...rdin.27s_essay
(annotation of original article)
http://www.sciencemag.org/sciext/sotp/commons.dtl
( original article and others -- note that this monograph
specifically addresses the futility of attempting to solve
non-tecnical problems by technical means.
http://www.econ.ox.ac.uk/members/mar...page/lives.pdf
http://www.uky.edu/OtherOrgs/AppalFor/commons.html



Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

On 13 Mar 2006 08:40:08 -0800, "
wrote:

Bad idea! The owners of the company ought to be able to choose what to
do with earnings. Whether to keep the money in the company or take
money out. And they kind of do now, in that they can decide to buy
stock in a company or not.

With your idea, half the money is distributed regardless of whether the
company is in a growth industry or not. Keep the government out of
company financial decisions.


Dan


F. George McDuffee wrote:

This is why I think there should be a law requiring at least 50%
of all claimed earnings to be distributed as dividends every
year, with the option of a "dividend reinvestment program" [DRIP]
for the people that think the corporation knows how to spend
their money better than they do. [Government does not offer this
option....] This also forces the money back into circulation in
the economy.


Unka George
(George McDuffee)
================
Whose financial house is in better order -- yours or General
Motors? As a percentage of gross income, who had a higher
percentage of "retained earnings" -- you or Ford? Who would you
rather have managing your 401k -- you or the "blue ribbon" board
of directors at Enron?

The stockholders are the owners of the company [at least in
theory] If you read what I said about the Dividend Reinvestment
Program [DRIP] you would see that this allows the individual
owners [stock holders] to decide what to do with *THEIR* money.

The record shows that corporations are becoming increasingly
reckless in their fiduciary duties, with "management"
increasingly regarding any profit generated as theirs, skimming
increasing amounts off the top for grossly excessive salary and
bonuses for [dubious] performance and failing to invest in the
core business.






Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

"Ron Thompson" wrote in message
...

I dont see any good reason to not be pusing diesel especially when you
CAN
run them on 100% renewable fuels as opposed to fossil fuels

How about because when it gets cold biodiesel doesn't burn? That's why
all
the biodiesel out there is going into mixtures with regular diesel at no
more than 15%. To use 100% biodiesel you have to address the cold weather
operations problem.

Steve.



So? Diesel fuel gels and has to be heated in cold weather.



Diesel starts to get at -9 F, soy based biodiesel starts to gel at 35 F. In
my piece of North Carolina it will NEVER get to -9 F.

Steve.

On 12 Mar 2006 17:23:30 -0800, "
wrote:
snip
Our junior Senator Maria Cantwell from Washington State wants to put a
excessive profit tax on the oil producers. Somehow she does not want
to put an excessive profit tax on software companies as Microsoft that
make a much higher percentage profit on capital invested.
snip
Interesting you mention MicroSoft.

By coincidence there is a short item on A4 in the Fri/Sat March
11/12 WSJ (I get it by mail so it is a day late) that details how
Microsoft is reorganizing their Irish subsidiaries "Round Island
One" and "Flat Island Co." as "unlimited liability" corporations
to reduce public disclosure of its assets. [can anyone spell LJM
or Raptor?]

In the same article, Treasury Secretary Snow states "there is a
"clear danger here that there has been migration of intellectual
and other intangible property offshore."

In another coincidence, an article directly below this one
reports EEC officials disclose Microsoft has still not complied
with the 2004 EEC antitrust rulings even after a 592$US million
fine, and they are preparing to levy daily fines until it does.

Just what are the Microsoft shareholders getting out of this
p*****g match between Bill Gates and the EEC, and would this be
occurring if MicroSoft been forced to distribute their earnings
year-by-year to the legal owners [shareholders] rather than
amassing excessive cash on hand?


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 20:01:36 -0500, "SteveF"
wrote:
snip
How about because when it gets cold biodiesel doesn't burn? That's why
all
the biodiesel out there is going into mixtures with regular diesel at no
more than 15%. To use 100% biodiesel you have to address the cold weather
operations problem.
snip
This is only a problem when a "complete" solution is attempted in
one leap, i.e. everybody has to use SVO or bio-diesel, all the
time, everywhere.


You snipped too soon. Brent "didn't see any good reason to not be pusing
diesel especially when you
CAN run them on 100% renewable fuels as opposed to fossil fuels" and he was
discussing a Jeep Liberty so I gave him one.


This is a typical bureaucratic ploy when an organization does not
want to do something because of greed, obstinacy, or the "not
invented here/we didn't think of it first" factor.


Or because they recognize that the American public is all for doing
something about the environment until they realize it is either going to
cost them money or be an inconvenience. My neighbor runs a local heating
oil company and we have had a number of discussions about biodiesel. He
told me that there is a large scale production plant opening in eastern
North Carolina but that even with the government subsidies, the biodiesel is
quite a bit more expensive than regular heating oil. Tell someone that the
fuel they are using might cause their vehicle to be very hard to start if
the cold weather shows up before the "winter" blend arrives and they will
tell you were you can stick your renewable fuel.

I'm not disagreeing with the idea that switching to renewable fuels isn't a
good idea and am currently looking at building a processor to convert WVO
into biodiesel to replace some (actually most but don't tell my neighbor) of
the heating oil I use for my house. But I do disagree with the folks who
seem to think that biodiesel is an obviously brilliant solution without any
problems to overcome or associated costs.

Steve.

In my part of California, it hardly ever gets below 35 F so what is
your point??

Easy John

F. George McDuffee wrote:

On 13 Mar 2006 08:40:08 -0800, "
wrote:

Bad idea! The owners of the company ought to be able to choose what to
do with earnings. Whether to keep the money in the company or take
money out. And they kind of do now, in that they can decide to buy
stock in a company or not.

With your idea, half the money is distributed regardless of whether the
company is in a growth industry or not. Keep the government out of
company financial decisions.


Dan


F. George McDuffee wrote:

This is why I think there should be a law requiring at least 50%
of all claimed earnings to be distributed as dividends every
year, with the option of a "dividend reinvestment program" [DRIP]
for the people that think the corporation knows how to spend
their money better than they do. [Government does not offer this
option....] This also forces the money back into circulation in
the economy.


Unka George
(George McDuffee)
================
Whose financial house is in better order -- yours or General
Motors? As a percentage of gross income, who had a higher
percentage of "retained earnings" -- you or Ford? Who would you
rather have managing your 401k -- you or the "blue ribbon" board
of directors at Enron?

The stockholders are the owners of the company [at least in
theory] If you read what I said about the Dividend Reinvestment
Program [DRIP] you would see that this allows the individual
owners [stock holders] to decide what to do with *THEIR* money.

The record shows that corporations are becoming increasingly
reckless in their fiduciary duties, with "management"
increasingly regarding any profit generated as theirs, skimming
increasing amounts off the top for grossly excessive salary and
bonuses for [dubious] performance and failing to invest in the
core business.

(1) if you don't like the fiscal policies of the company, don't buy the
stock. Nobody is forcing you to invest in stocks.

(2) if the majority of stockholders don't like the policies of the board of
directors, all they have to do is vote their shares.

Having the government force all companies to pay dividends whether the
shareholders want them to or not removes choice from the market.

Why do you so favor government micromanagement of the internal affairs of
businesses?

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 22:42:11 -0600, "RAM³"
wrote:

The railroads are ripping up their tracks and selling/abandoning their
rights-of-way even as I type. They've been doing this for over 40 years and
have almost reached the point-of-no-return for even their trans-continental
routes.

But they are not ripping up lightly used branch lines solely because
they are "losing money on them", it's more that they've already made
their money on them and they aren't getting used enough anymore to
justify the upkeep.

(Which is stupid, because it will cost a LOT more to clear a ROW and
build a new rail line using 2010 dollars than it does to keep an
existing line usable that was built with 1920's-'30's-'40's dollars.)

When the RR got the original franchise to install the rail line,
they also got the title to the land under them, and the vacant land
for a certain distance to each side of the tracks.

The RR would gladly install a spur line a few miles away and
parallel to their main line through some vacant land to get title to
the land, then develop the acreage as commercial or industrial land
for lease with rail access.

Fifty to a hundred years later, the railroads that started out in
the transportation business with land development as a sideline have
switched their business plan to the exact reverse. They've gotten
several decades of lease income from the property, then sold off a lot
of that surrounding industrial land at a very healthy profit, much of
it not needing rail access anymore. So now they can rip out the rails
and sell the remaining Right-Of-Way strip.

And they have a lot of steel scrap value from the old rails.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Stealth Pilot wrote:

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 23:06:52 -0500, Brent Philion
wrote:


Its not unfeasible to drastically cut fossil fuel usage.

I've been told of new european turbo diesels in cars getting 110mpg.
havent seen independent figures to confirm this but your idea of
cutting usage as a part of the solution is on the money.

what sort of economy do these veggie oil engines deliver?
what volume of emissions compared to a diesel?

Stealth (I'd love one for an aircraft) Pilot

Tt was Diamond Aircraft that did a transatlatic with a diesel twin

http://www.diamond-air.at/en/press/p...hive/40820.htm
http://www.diamond-air.at/en/products/DA40/index.htm

Cheers
Trevor Jones