http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml
Kids Build Soybean-Fueled Car

The star at last week's Philadelphia Auto Show wasn't a sports car or
an economy car. It was a sports-economy car - one that combines
performance and practicality under one hood.

But as CBS News correspondent Steve Hartman reports in this week's
Assignment America, the car that buyers have been waiting decades
[for] comes from an unexpected source and runs on soybean bio-diesel
fuel to boot.

A car that can go from zero to 60 in four seconds and get more than 50
miles to the gallon would be enough to pique any driver's interest. So
who do we have to thank for it. Ford? GM? Toyota? No - just Victor,
David, Cheeseborough, Bruce, and Kosi, five kids from the auto shop
program at West Philadelphia High School.

The five kids, along with a handful of schoolmates, built the
soybean-fueled car as an after-school project. It took them more than
a year - rummaging for parts, configuring wires and learning as they
went. As teacher Simon Hauger notes, these kids weren't exactly the
cream of the academic crop.

"We have a number of high school dropouts," he says. "We have a number
that have been removed for disciplinary reasons and they end up with
us."

One of the Fab Five, Kosi Harmon, was in a gang at his old school -
and he was a terrible student. The car project has changed all that.

"I was just getting by with the skin of my teeth, C's and D's," he
says. "I came here, and now I'm a straight-A student."

To Hauger, the soybean-powered car shows what kids - any kids - can do
when they get the chance.

"If you give kids that have been stereotyped as not being able to do
anything an opportunity to do something great, they'll step up," he
says.

Stepping up is something the big automakers have yet to do. They're
still in the early stages of marketing hybrid cars while playing
catch-up to the Bad News Bears of auto shop.

"We made this work," says Hauger. "We're not geniuses. So why aren't
they doing it?"

Kosi thinks he knows why. The answer, he says, is the big oil
companies.

"They're making billions upon billions of dollars," he says. "And when
this car sells, that'll go down — to low billions upon billions."

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:45:22 GMT, Gunner
wrote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml
Kids Build Soybean-Fueled Car
snip
============================
For an eye opener google "diesel cars" new sale You will
discover there is a whole series of apparently quite good diesel
cars, light trucks, vans, and crossover SUVs available outside
the U.S. from the major manufacturers that are just not being
imported including several high performance models. I don't
know if these vehicles are not available in the U.S. because of
some regulatory hurdle, marketing inertia, oil company pressure,
or the sun spot problem.

Google on diesel SVO OR "straight vegetable oil" conversion"
and you will discover a number of European firms that make kits
to convert these vehicles to run on straight vegetable oil and
blends.

The tendency of the U.S. government and people to blame the
problems they themselves first create and then perpetuate on
outside and malignant forces are reaching bazaar and dangerous
levels not seen since the last "witch hunt." As Julius Caesar
says in Shakespear's play "The fault lies not in the stars, dear
Brutus, but in ourselves."

(Note to Cliff: This appears to be a bipartisan effort.)
Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
For an eye opener google "diesel cars" new sale You will
discover there is a whole series of apparently quite good diesel
cars, light trucks, vans, and crossover SUVs available outside
the U.S. from the major manufacturers that are just not being
imported including several high performance models. I don't
know if these vehicles are not available in the U.S. because of
some regulatory hurdle, marketing inertia, oil company pressure,
or the sun spot problem.

Google on diesel SVO OR "straight vegetable oil" conversion"
and you will discover a number of European firms that make kits
to convert these vehicles to run on straight vegetable oil and
blends.

The tendency of the U.S. government and people to blame the
problems they themselves first create and then perpetuate on
outside and malignant forces are reaching bazaar and dangerous
levels not seen since the last "witch hunt." As Julius Caesar
says in Shakespear's play "The fault lies not in the stars, dear
Brutus, but in ourselves."

Yabut have any of these been Blessed by the EPA?

"RAM³" wrote:

The tendency of the U.S. government and people to blame the
problems they themselves first create and then perpetuate on
outside and malignant forces are reaching bazaar and dangerous
levels not seen since the last "witch hunt." As Julius Caesar
says in Shakespear's play "The fault lies not in the stars, dear
Brutus, but in ourselves."

Yabut have any of these been Blessed by the EPA?

As I understand the situation, the stumbling block to wider use of
diesel vehicles in the US is getting the sulphur out of the fuel. I have
read that the transport industry is fighting the removal quite actively
as they are concerned that they will have shortened life of their
injector pumps. In turn, some of the auto maker will not put their
vehicles into the marketplace as there are concerns about the high
sulphur diesel causing problems with, among other things, emissions
control equipment.

Canada has been running low sulphur fuel for quite a while, and there
is a move to set levels even lower.

To judge from the number of posts to some of the diesel forums, esp.
Volkswagen related ones, there are a fair number of VW diesels bing sold
in the US, though there does not seem to be the acceptance in the market
that they find elswhere. As many of them are posting from California, I
would have to figure that the cars are meeting some emissions standards,
unless there are exemptions for diesel vehicles.

My read on the story is that the reporter is one of those half retarded
souls that can barely figure out how a toaster works, and that he/she/it
is shocked that a bunch of guys that get poor grades in academic classes
should somehow be able to make something of themselves. A bit insulting,
really.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:26:47 -0700, Trevor Jones
wrote:
snip
My read on the story is that the reporter is one of those half retarded
souls that can barely figure out how a toaster works, and that he/she/it
is shocked that a bunch of guys that get poor grades in academic classes
should somehow be able to make something of themselves. A bit insulting,
really.
snip
There are different areas of intelegence and expertese. The
error is to assume your area of expertese is the only one.
Reporters because they are very good at language seem to be prone
to this. This is also the major problem with the
no-child-left-behind program whereby everyone will go to college
and be a tax accountant or stock broker.

I point out in passing that bio-diesel and SVO [straight
vegetable oil] are inherently low [and in many cases no] sulphur
fuels. I understand that the oil change intervals can be
extended for diesel engines using these fuels because of the low
sulphur [acid] build up in the oil. Again, our failure to
implement this solution shows the desire to do nothing and blame
"outside influences" for our problems.

A question worth asking in view of the huge profits made by the
oil companies over the last few months is what are they doing
with the money? They are not paying dividends and do not seem to
be reinvesting any of it back into renewable domestic fuels.
Remember in the 70s when this question came up and they were all
going to reinvent fuel production and invest in newer more
efficient refineries? The only think I know they did was buy
Zilog [ computer chip manufacturer that was Intel's big rival]
and precede to put them out of business by management.

Does the phrase "don't p*** on my leg and then tell me its
raining" resonate? Fool me once shame on you -- fool me twice
shame on me.




Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

F. George McDuffee wrote:

A question worth asking in view of the huge profits made by the
oil companies over the last few months is what are they doing
with the money? They are not paying dividends




Unka George
(George McDuffee)

Odd that they don't pay dividends. I wonder what the hell was the two
checks I received on Sat. from Exxon-Mobil and BP.

Our junior Senator Maria Cantwell from Washington State wants to put a
excessive profit tax on the oil producers. Somehow she does not want
to put an excessive profit tax on software companies as Microsoft that
make a much higher percentage profit on capital invested.

Where the hell were you five years ago when oil companies were not
making very much money on the capital invested.


Dan

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:45:22 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml
Kids Build Soybean-Fueled Car

snip
============================
For an eye opener google "diesel cars" new sale You will
discover there is a whole series of apparently quite good diesel
cars, light trucks, vans, and crossover SUVs available outside
the U.S. from the major manufacturers that are just not being
imported including several high performance models. I don't
know if these vehicles are not available in the U.S. because of
some regulatory hurdle, marketing inertia, oil company pressure,
or the sun spot problem.

Google on diesel SVO OR "straight vegetable oil" conversion"
and you will discover a number of European firms that make kits
to convert these vehicles to run on straight vegetable oil and
blends.

The tendency of the U.S. government and people to blame the
problems they themselves first create and then perpetuate on
outside and malignant forces are reaching bazaar and dangerous
levels not seen since the last "witch hunt." As Julius Caesar
says in Shakespear's play "The fault lies not in the stars, dear
Brutus, but in ourselves."

(Note to Cliff: This appears to be a bipartisan effort.)
Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

I love using diesel vehicles and finally found ONE mid power north
american diesel.

the other options are HUGE trucks or small cars like the jetta

the Jeep liberty seems to be the only north american vehicle with a
midsized diesel. 150ish Hp instead of 300 in the trucks and -100 for the
cars

I dont see any good reason to not be pusing diesel especially when you
CAN run them on 100% renewable fuels as opposed to fossil fuels

"Brent Philion" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 05:45:22 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml
Kids Build Soybean-Fueled Car

snip
============================
For an eye opener google "diesel cars" new sale You will
discover there is a whole series of apparently quite good diesel
cars, light trucks, vans, and crossover SUVs available outside
the U.S. from the major manufacturers that are just not being
imported including several high performance models. I don't
know if these vehicles are not available in the U.S. because of
some regulatory hurdle, marketing inertia, oil company pressure,
or the sun spot problem.

Google on diesel SVO OR "straight vegetable oil" conversion"
and you will discover a number of European firms that make kits
to convert these vehicles to run on straight vegetable oil and
blends.

The tendency of the U.S. government and people to blame the
problems they themselves first create and then perpetuate on
outside and malignant forces are reaching bazaar and dangerous
levels not seen since the last "witch hunt." As Julius Caesar
says in Shakespear's play "The fault lies not in the stars, dear
Brutus, but in ourselves."

(Note to Cliff: This appears to be a bipartisan effort.)
Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not the things
which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic. «The Power of Words»,
in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

I love using diesel vehicles and finally found ONE mid power north
american diesel.

the other options are HUGE trucks or small cars like the jetta

the Jeep liberty seems to be the only north american vehicle with a
midsized diesel. 150ish Hp instead of 300 in the trucks and -100 for the
cars

I dont see any good reason to not be pusing diesel especially when you CAN
run them on 100% renewable fuels as opposed to fossil fuels

How about because when it gets cold biodiesel doesn't burn? That's why all
the biodiesel out there is going into mixtures with regular diesel at no
more than 15%. To use 100% biodiesel you have to address the cold weather
operations problem.

Steve.

I dont see any good reason to not be pusing diesel especially when you CAN
run them on 100% renewable fuels as opposed to fossil fuels

How about because when it gets cold biodiesel doesn't burn? That's why all
the biodiesel out there is going into mixtures with regular diesel at no
more than 15%. To use 100% biodiesel you have to address the cold weather
operations problem.

Steve.



So? Diesel fuel gels and has to be heated in cold weather.


Ron Thompson
On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA

http://www.plansandprojects.com
My hobby pages are he
http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/

Severe stupidity is self correcting, but mild stupidity is rampant in the land.
-Ron Thompson

"Ron Thompson" wrote in message
...

I dont see any good reason to not be pusing diesel especially when you
CAN
run them on 100% renewable fuels as opposed to fossil fuels

How about because when it gets cold biodiesel doesn't burn? That's why
all
the biodiesel out there is going into mixtures with regular diesel at no
more than 15%. To use 100% biodiesel you have to address the cold weather
operations problem.

Steve.



So? Diesel fuel gels and has to be heated in cold weather.



Diesel starts to get at -9 F, soy based biodiesel starts to gel at 35 F. In
my piece of North Carolina it will NEVER get to -9 F.

Steve.

SteveF wrote:
How about because when it gets cold biodiesel doesn't burn? That's why all
the biodiesel out there is going into mixtures with regular diesel at no
more than 15%. To use 100% biodiesel you have to address the cold weather
operations problem.

Steve.

It burns fine. It gels when its cold and does not flow through the
plumbing worth a darn.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 20:01:36 -0500, "SteveF"
wrote:
snip
How about because when it gets cold biodiesel doesn't burn? That's why all
the biodiesel out there is going into mixtures with regular diesel at no
more than 15%. To use 100% biodiesel you have to address the cold weather
operations problem.
snip
This is only a problem when a "complete" solution is attempted in
one leap, i.e. everybody has to use SVO or bio-diesel, all the
time, everywhere.

This is a typical bureaucratic ploy when an organization does not
want to do something because of greed, obstinacy, or the "not
invented here/we didn't think of it first" factor.

There are several solutions:
(1) Have different blends for different areas just like gasoline.
(2) Use SVO and bio-diesel in large, continuous duty diesel
engines such as locomotives and interstate trucks, with light
duty, intermittent operation diesels such as passenger cars
continuing to use #2. SVO and bio-diesel fuel distribution can
then be limited to rail yards and large interstate truck stops.,
minimizing the change-over investment.

Another thing to consider is that the U.S. is more rapidly
running out of money (i.e. the current accounts trade deficit)
than the world is running out of oil. Our choice may not be
between the "good" and the "better," or even the "good" and the
"bad," but between the "bad" and the "worse."


Unka George
(George McDuffee)

What a country calls its vital economic interests are not
the things which enable its citizens to live, but the things
which enable it to make war. Petrol is more likely than wheat
to be a cause of international conflict.
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic.
«The Power of Words», in Nouveaux Cahiers (1 and 15 April 1937;
repr. in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962)

"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 20:01:36 -0500, "SteveF"
wrote:
snip
How about because when it gets cold biodiesel doesn't burn? That's why
all
the biodiesel out there is going into mixtures with regular diesel at no
more than 15%. To use 100% biodiesel you have to address the cold weather
operations problem.
snip
This is only a problem when a "complete" solution is attempted in
one leap, i.e. everybody has to use SVO or bio-diesel, all the
time, everywhere.


You snipped too soon. Brent "didn't see any good reason to not be pusing
diesel especially when you
CAN run them on 100% renewable fuels as opposed to fossil fuels" and he was
discussing a Jeep Liberty so I gave him one.


This is a typical bureaucratic ploy when an organization does not
want to do something because of greed, obstinacy, or the "not
invented here/we didn't think of it first" factor.


Or because they recognize that the American public is all for doing
something about the environment until they realize it is either going to
cost them money or be an inconvenience. My neighbor runs a local heating
oil company and we have had a number of discussions about biodiesel. He
told me that there is a large scale production plant opening in eastern
North Carolina but that even with the government subsidies, the biodiesel is
quite a bit more expensive than regular heating oil. Tell someone that the
fuel they are using might cause their vehicle to be very hard to start if
the cold weather shows up before the "winter" blend arrives and they will
tell you were you can stick your renewable fuel.

I'm not disagreeing with the idea that switching to renewable fuels isn't a
good idea and am currently looking at building a processor to convert WVO
into biodiesel to replace some (actually most but don't tell my neighbor) of
the heating oil I use for my house. But I do disagree with the folks who
seem to think that biodiesel is an obviously brilliant solution without any
problems to overcome or associated costs.

Steve.

Gunner wrote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1329941.shtml
Kids Build Soybean-Fueled Car

The star at last week's Philadelphia Auto Show wasn't a sports car or
an economy car. It was a sports-economy car - one that combines
performance and practicality under one hood.

But as CBS News correspondent Steve Hartman reports in this week's
Assignment America, the car that buyers have been waiting decades
[for] comes from an unexpected source and runs on soybean bio-diesel
fuel to boot.

A car that can go from zero to 60 in four seconds and get more than 50
miles to the gallon would be enough to pique any driver's interest. So
who do we have to thank for it. Ford? GM? Toyota? No - just Victor,
David, Cheeseborough, Bruce, and Kosi, five kids from the auto shop
program at West Philadelphia High School.

The five kids, along with a handful of schoolmates, built the
soybean-fueled car as an after-school project. It took them more than
a year - rummaging for parts, configuring wires and learning as they
went. As teacher Simon Hauger notes, these kids weren't exactly the
cream of the academic crop.

"We have a number of high school dropouts," he says. "We have a number
that have been removed for disciplinary reasons and they end up with
us."

One of the Fab Five, Kosi Harmon, was in a gang at his old school -
and he was a terrible student. The car project has changed all that.

"I was just getting by with the skin of my teeth, C's and D's," he
says. "I came here, and now I'm a straight-A student."

To Hauger, the soybean-powered car shows what kids - any kids - can do
when they get the chance.

"If you give kids that have been stereotyped as not being able to do
anything an opportunity to do something great, they'll step up," he
says.

Stepping up is something the big automakers have yet to do. They're
still in the early stages of marketing hybrid cars while playing
catch-up to the Bad News Bears of auto shop.

"We made this work," says Hauger. "We're not geniuses. So why aren't
they doing it?"

Kosi thinks he knows why. The answer, he says, is the big oil
companies.

"They're making billions upon billions of dollars," he says. "And when
this car sells, that'll go down — to low billions upon billions."


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner


FWIW, I read recently that to produce even a noticable scratch in fossil
oil consumption by using soy based fuel would require growing soy on
nearly all the farmable land area in the USA.

On a similar note. I just finished reading an article in this month's
Discover magazine that the Carthage, Missouri plant which has been
converting waste turkey body parts and pig fat (Received from ConAgra
meat processing plants) into diesel fuel. The article said they were
having problems with complaints about the odor from the plant which was
built just a couple of blocks away from residences, and wished they'd
sited the place in the boonies.

This link says they're trying two million bucks worth of new air
scrubbers to reduce the smell.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...l/14040813.htm



--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 14:14:15 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

FWIW, I read recently that to produce even a noticable scratch in fossil
oil consumption by using soy based fuel would require growing soy on
nearly all the farmable land area in the USA.

That's assuming we only use soy oil as a feed stock. It still sounds
overstated, but I won't argue too much since I can't back it up.

But BD can be made from any veggie oil or (as you pointed out) animal
fat. In arid climates, jatropha (a bush/small tree) seems to be a
promising source. The wave of the future may be algae, which could be
grown anywhere the sun shines, but so far the limiting factor seems to
be extracting the oil from the plant. There seem to be several people
working on it, so they aren't talking much about the details out of
concern for tipping off the competition.

I guess some of this depends on what you call a "noticeable scratch."
I've heard that all the waste fryer oil we currently produce could
account for 3% of diesel usage (maybe I've got that wrong, but there's
definitely a lot of it out there). That isn't much in terms of GDP or
import levels, but I'd call it a noticeable amount. And it doesn't
even require new oil to be produced. A drop in the bucket is better
than none. Now, if we put a concerted effort into R&D as we have for
petrol, ther's no telling how far it could go, but I think it's best
not to view BD as a total replacement for petrol. We're going to have
to look at multiple solutions for a very big problem. BD is, IMO, a
step inthe right direction.

td