I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

Can't help with the MSDS but start at google with a search on
manganese madness.

On 28 Jan 2004 04:35:50 -0800, (MMonheit) wrote:

I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

"MMonheit" wrote in message
om...
This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires...

Is that like getting Altzhimer's from cooking in aluminum pots? g

(I've never heard of anything from mag, so I'm being sarcastic.. ignore
me...)

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

How old are MSDS sheeta anyway? When did the government start requiring
them?

--
Bob May
Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less.
Works every time it is tried!

(MMonheit) wrote in message . com...
I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who you
should ethically go after.

--Paul Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

In rec.crafts.metalworking Paul Wakfer wrote:
(MMonheit) wrote in message . com...
I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who you
should ethically go after.

That's easy.
Whoevers got the deepest pockets.

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
In rec.crafts.metalworking Paul Wakfer wrote:
(MMonheit) wrote in message
. com...
I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who you
should ethically go after.

That's easy.
Whoevers got the deepest pockets.

Yes, and gather as many defendants as possible, that way in the end the
lawyers get millions in fees and the individual defendants get $200 and a
gift certificate for a free massage. I love lawyers.

"Bob May" wrote in
:

How old are MSDS sheeta anyway? When did the government start
requiring them?

--
Bob May
Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink
less. Works every time it is tried!



1983

You can look it up in OSHA CFN 29 part 1920.1200. Or if your in
construction it is also included in 29 CFN part 1926.59 (Sub part D).

I took the time to scan my workbook on the part concerning MSDS issues,
these are general guides.



GENERAL INFORMATION
The Hazard Communication standard requires that chemical manufacturers and
importers evaluate their chemicals and determine if they are hazardous.

Employers shall develop, implement and maintain, at each workplace, a
written Hazard Communication Program consisting of at least the following
elements:

1. Labels and other forms of warning.

2. Material Safety Data Sheets.

3. Employee training and information.

4. List of known hazardous chemicals at workplace.

5. Methods used to inform employees of hazards.

On multi-employer workplaces, employers who produce, use, or store
hazardous chemicals at the workplace must ensure that the information about
these chemicals, in the form of MSDS, is available for their employees and
any other employees who may be exposed to these chemicals.

LABELS & OTHER FORMS OF WARNING

The chemical manufacturer, importer, or distributor must ensure that each
hazardous chemical is labeled, tagged or marked with the following
information before it enters the workplace:

1. Identity of the hazardous chemical.

2. Appropriate hazardous warnings.

3. Name and address of chemical manufacturer, importer or other
responsible party.

Once the hazardous chemical enters the workplace it is the responsibility
of the employer to ensure that each container is marked or labeled with the
following information:

1. Identity of the hazardous chemical.

2. Appropriate hazardous warnings such as words, pictures, symbols, or a
combination of all three.

For portable containers, which are used to transfer hazardous chemicals
from one labeled container to the point of use, the containers need not be
labeled.

The employer must ensure that the labels, and any other forms of warning,
are written in English and are prominently displayed on the container or
readily available in the work area throughout each work shift.




MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEETS

Chemical manufacturers and importers of hazardous chemicals must develop a
Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for each hazardous chemical they produce
or import into the country.

Employers must have available, at each workplace, an MSDS sheet for all
hazardous chemicals that are used.

MSDS sheets must be in English. MSDS sheets in other languages are
permitted, provided they are IN ADDITION TO those in English.

Each MSDS must contain at least the following information:

1. The identity of the chemical.

2. The chemical and common names of the hazardous substances
and ingredients.

3. Physical and chemical characteristics of the hazardous chemicals (flash
point, vapor pressure).

4. Physical hazards such as fire, explosion and reactivity.

5. Health hazards of the chemical such as, signs and symptoms of exposure
and medical conditions aggravated by exposure to the chemical.

6. Primary route of entry to the body.

7. OSHA permissible exposure limits, ACGIH-Threshold Limit Value, and any
other exposure limits.

8. Listing for known carcinogens such as, National Toxicology Program (NTP)
or International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).

9. Any known safety precautions for handling the materials such as
appropriate hygienic and protective measures including procedures for
spills and leaks.

10. Any known control measures such as engineering controls, work practices
or PPE.

11. Emergency and first aid procedures.

12. Date the MSDS was prepared and date of subsequent reVISions.

13. The name, address and phone number of the chemical manufacturer,
importer or other responsible party who can provide additional
information.



Chemical manufacturers, importers and distributors must ensure that
employers are provided copies of the MSDS sheets with their initial
shipment and with the first shipment after the MSDS has been changed.

The employer must maintain in the workplace MSDS sheets for each of the
hazardous chemicals on site. MSDS sheets must be readily accessible, during
each work shift, to employees when they are in their work area. Electronic
access, such as computer databases, microfiche and other alternatives to
maintaining paper copies of the MSDS sheets are permitted, as long as no
barriers to immediate employee access in each workplace are created by such
options. In any event, MSDS sheets must be readily accessible during each
work shift to all
employees.

If employees are required to travel between workplaces during a shift, MSDS
sheets are permitted to be kept at the primary workplace facility. MSDS
sheets may be kept in any form, provided they contain all of the required
information as listed above.


EMPLOYEE INFORMATION AND TRAINING

OSHA requires that employers provide employees with effective training on
the hazardous chemicals in their work places at the time of their initial
assignment, and whenever new hazardous are introduced into the work place.

The required training shall cover at least the following topics:

1. The requirements of the Hazard Communication standard.

2. Operations in the employees area where hazardous chemicals are present.

3. The location of the written hazard communication program and MSDS
sheets.

4. Methods and operations to detect the presence of hazardous chemicals.

5. The physical & health hazards associated with the chemicals in their
work areas.

6. PPE available to the employees and other control measures they can use
to protect themselves.

7. Details of the employer's hazard communication program, including how to
use MSDS sheets and
proper PPE.


PPE stands for Personal Protective Equipment.



I hope this is some use to you.

Tim Johnson
IBEW Local 38

Tim Williams wrote:
"MMonheit" wrote in message
om...
This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires...

Is that like getting Altzhimer's from cooking in aluminum pots? g

(I've never heard of anything from mag, so I'm being sarcastic.. ignore
me...)

Manganese and Magnesium are not the same.
--
SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS
Have 5 nice days! John
******************************
--- ILN 000.000.001 ---

"Frank" wrote in message nk.net...
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
In rec.crafts.metalworking Paul Wakfer wrote:
(MMonheit) wrote in message
. com...
I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who you
should ethically go after.

That's easy.
Whoevers got the deepest pockets.

Yes, and gather as many defendants as possible, that way in the end the
lawyers get millions in fees and the individual defendants get $200 and a
gift certificate for a free massage. I love lawyers.


Ian,
What you describe is a class action. I do not handle class actions.
Rather, I handle a very small number of cases for a few clients who
have been severely injured. These cases are very expensive to puruse
and I take only very serious cases.

That said, yes, there are the usual suspects that show up, and in the
case of welding rods, there has been a class action filed, which no
doubt will not deliver the level of attention or compensation that I
seek for my clients. So I do not blame you for your cynical
statement.

As to compensation, I have never received more than any client I
represented. They always receive the lion's share. I wish I could
say that were true of all lawyers.

In any event, should you come across the MSDS sheets I am seeking
(older ones) it would be a big help to me and more importantly to my
clients.

Regards,
Mike

(Paul Wakfer) wrote in message . com...
(MMonheit) wrote in message . com...
I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who you
should ethically go after.

--Paul Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

Paul,
Makes sense, to blame the employe, if the manufacturer gave adequate
warnings... But they don't give adequate warning. In fact, just the
opposite.

As early as 1972, there is a documented deception and lack of full
disclosure from the industry. Under oath, the president of Lincoln in
1972 admitted that he wrote a memo advising to, and I am paraphrasing,
"not let the word out about the dangers."

Even today, the MSDS is not adequate. For example, regarding
Manganese, the warning reads, "Long-term (chronic) overexposure to
welding fumes can lead to siderosis (iron deposits in lung) and may
affect pulmonary function. Manganese
overexposure can affect the central nervous system, resulting in
impaired speech and movement. Bronchitis and some lung fibrosis have
been
reported. Repeated exposure to fluorides may cause excessive
calcification of the bone and calcification of ligaments of the ribs,
pelvis and spinal
column. May cause skin rash."

But they don't say that the problem is irreversible. That is it
progressive.

ALL THEY SAY IS... "can affect the central nervous system, resulting
in impaired speech and movement". Here is what Manganism really is...

Mangansim is a disease which is very much like Parkinson's Disease in
its clinical presentation. It manifests with symptoms of fixed gaze,
bradykinesia, postural difficulty, tremor, rigidity and a decrease in
mental status. These are all traits of parkinsonism.

This is troublesome, since these symptoms were first associated with
manganese exposure in the scientific literature in 1837. Manganese,
when
exposed to the brain, can cause reductions of dopamine,
norepinephrine, and neuromelanin. It also causes neuronal loss and
gliosis in several areas of the brain. These, too, are characteristic
of parkinsonism.

Manganism is often irreversible, but can be reversed if it is
recognized and arrested in an early stage. It is typically defined in
three stages.4 The initial stage is vague. It is typified by malaise,
apathy, lethargy, anorexia and headaches.5 These symptoms are totally
nonspecific, and can be explained away as depression, physical or
mental exhaustion, or even the flu. This stage
is reversible. If the exposure can be discontinued, typically there
are no permanent sequellae.

If, however, exposure continues, then the symptoms will worsen, and
will manifest as impaired memory and judgment, psychological
disturbance, anxiety and possibly psychotic/hallucinogenic events
(sometimes called "manganese madness"). This stage can last from 30 to
90 days. On the effects of black oxide of magnesium when inhaled into
the lungs.

The third stage is the actionable phase, insofar as litigation is
concerned. In this stage, there is extremity dystonia, gait
disturbance, tremor, paresis, impaired coordination and facial
rigidity. Once the victim reaches this stage, the condition is
irreversible, and leads to complete disability. The condition mimics
Parkinson's disease, but is not totally identical. The differences
are subtle, but important to the legal causation analysis. First, the
tremor is called "intention tremor" in Manganism. This means that the
tremor is most pronounced while the victim is actively using various
muscles. In parkinsonism it is called a "resting tremor." Second, the
dystonia that is often associated with manganism is not generally
present in Parkinson's disease. Therapeutic doses of levodopa therapy
can impact on Parkinson's disease, but have no effect
upon manganism. Third, the areas of the brain that are affected differ
between the two conditions. In the manganism victim, the striatum and
globus palidus are the most likely affected areas. Conversely, in the
Parkinson's disease patient, it is the substantia nigra which is most
affected. In the Parkinson patient, the striatum and globus palidus
demonstrate only reduced dopamine concentrations.

NONE OF THIS IS IN THE MSDS. Thus, perhaps a code of silence between
the manufacturer and the employer. But by no means a full disclosure,
that is intended to reach the workers and allow them to take those
steps, e.g. through their unions, to gain protection at work.

Best,

Mike

"John" wrote in message
...
Manganese and Magnesium are not the same.

Oops....posting at night again.... ;^{

Tim

--
"That's for the courts to decide." - Homer Simpson
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

All this would have been nice to know as I used to sit inside the sceen
hopper of a crusher building up and hardfacing rock crusher rolls. My former
employer did not supply a respirator even when asked. The warning on the box
that the rods came in did not have any more info than 7018 rods back in the
80s. Maybe that's what is wrong with me.

"MMonheit" wrote in message
m...
(Paul Wakfer) wrote in message
. com...
(MMonheit) wrote in message
. com...
I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who you
should ethically go after.

--Paul Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

Paul,
Makes sense, to blame the employe, if the manufacturer gave adequate
warnings... But they don't give adequate warning. In fact, just the
opposite.

As early as 1972, there is a documented deception and lack of full
disclosure from the industry. Under oath, the president of Lincoln in
1972 admitted that he wrote a memo advising to, and I am paraphrasing,
"not let the word out about the dangers."

Even today, the MSDS is not adequate. For example, regarding
Manganese, the warning reads, "Long-term (chronic) overexposure to
welding fumes can lead to siderosis (iron deposits in lung) and may
affect pulmonary function. Manganese
overexposure can affect the central nervous system, resulting in
impaired speech and movement. Bronchitis and some lung fibrosis have
been
reported. Repeated exposure to fluorides may cause excessive
calcification of the bone and calcification of ligaments of the ribs,
pelvis and spinal
column. May cause skin rash."

But they don't say that the problem is irreversible. That is it
progressive.

ALL THEY SAY IS... "can affect the central nervous system, resulting
in impaired speech and movement". Here is what Manganism really is...

Mangansim is a disease which is very much like Parkinson's Disease in
its clinical presentation. It manifests with symptoms of fixed gaze,
bradykinesia, postural difficulty, tremor, rigidity and a decrease in
mental status. These are all traits of parkinsonism.

This is troublesome, since these symptoms were first associated with
manganese exposure in the scientific literature in 1837. Manganese,
when
exposed to the brain, can cause reductions of dopamine,
norepinephrine, and neuromelanin. It also causes neuronal loss and
gliosis in several areas of the brain. These, too, are characteristic
of parkinsonism.

Manganism is often irreversible, but can be reversed if it is
recognized and arrested in an early stage. It is typically defined in
three stages.4 The initial stage is vague. It is typified by malaise,
apathy, lethargy, anorexia and headaches.5 These symptoms are totally
nonspecific, and can be explained away as depression, physical or
mental exhaustion, or even the flu. This stage
is reversible. If the exposure can be discontinued, typically there
are no permanent sequellae.

If, however, exposure continues, then the symptoms will worsen, and
will manifest as impaired memory and judgment, psychological
disturbance, anxiety and possibly psychotic/hallucinogenic events
(sometimes called "manganese madness"). This stage can last from 30 to
90 days. On the effects of black oxide of magnesium when inhaled into
the lungs.

The third stage is the actionable phase, insofar as litigation is
concerned. In this stage, there is extremity dystonia, gait
disturbance, tremor, paresis, impaired coordination and facial
rigidity. Once the victim reaches this stage, the condition is
irreversible, and leads to complete disability. The condition mimics
Parkinson's disease, but is not totally identical. The differences
are subtle, but important to the legal causation analysis. First, the
tremor is called "intention tremor" in Manganism. This means that the
tremor is most pronounced while the victim is actively using various
muscles. In parkinsonism it is called a "resting tremor." Second, the
dystonia that is often associated with manganism is not generally
present in Parkinson's disease. Therapeutic doses of levodopa therapy
can impact on Parkinson's disease, but have no effect
upon manganism. Third, the areas of the brain that are affected differ
between the two conditions. In the manganism victim, the striatum and
globus palidus are the most likely affected areas. Conversely, in the
Parkinson's disease patient, it is the substantia nigra which is most
affected. In the Parkinson patient, the striatum and globus palidus
demonstrate only reduced dopamine concentrations.

NONE OF THIS IS IN THE MSDS. Thus, perhaps a code of silence between
the manufacturer and the employer. But by no means a full disclosure,
that is intended to reach the workers and allow them to take those
steps, e.g. through their unions, to gain protection at work.

Best,

Mike

In rec.crafts.metalworking MMonheit wrote:
snip
Even today, the MSDS is not adequate. For example, regarding
Manganese, the warning reads, "Long-term (chronic) overexposure to
welding fumes can lead to siderosis (iron deposits in lung) and may
affect pulmonary function. Manganese
overexposure can affect the central nervous system, resulting in
impaired speech and movement. Bronchitis and some lung fibrosis have
been
reported. Repeated exposure to fluorides may cause excessive
calcification of the bone and calcification of ligaments of the ribs,
pelvis and spinal
column. May cause skin rash."

But they don't say that the problem is irreversible. That is it
progressive.

MSDS are not well-written for end users.
It would be really nice if there was a little column saying how much
you have to do to damage yourself with the chemical in various ways.

E.G. Water:
Airway: May cause death if breathed in quantity. If still breathing
after immersion, professional aid should be sought as lung infections
can develop.

Skin: Extended exposure will cause softening of skin, and may allow fungal
infections to develop.

.....

Ian Stirling wrote in message .. .
In rec.crafts.metalworking Paul Wakfer wrote:
(MMonheit) wrote in message . com...
I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who you
should ethically go after.

That's easy.
Whoevers got the deepest pockets.

Obviously, you either completely missed or did not understand the
words "blameless" and "ethically".

All that going after "deep pockets" ensures is that the products that
are needed to increase the happiness of all humans will not be
produced in the future. It is up to each individual to either make
himself aware of harmful effects in the workplace or sign work
contracts which require his employer to be fully responsible. Those
who sell products with full disclosure of any potential harm which is
known at that time must not held responsible for such a voluntary act
of exchange. Where no coercion is involved, any restriction of or
penalty for free informed exchange of goods and services in order to
protect a few, always harms the many. By interfering with the
production of beneficial goods and services, in the long-run such
measures even harm the few who they were designed to protect.

--Paul Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

(MMonheit) wrote in message om...
(Paul Wakfer) wrote in message . com...
(MMonheit) wrote in message . com...
I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who you
should ethically go after.

--Paul Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

Paul,
Makes sense, to blame the employe, if the manufacturer gave adequate
warnings... But they don't give adequate warning. In fact, just the
opposite.

As early as 1972, there is a documented deception and lack of full
disclosure from the industry. Under oath, the president of Lincoln in
1972 admitted that he wrote a memo advising to, and I am paraphrasing,
"not let the word out about the dangers."

Even today, the MSDS is not adequate. For example, regarding
Manganese, the warning reads, "Long-term (chronic) overexposure to
welding fumes can lead to siderosis (iron deposits in lung) and may
affect pulmonary function. Manganese
overexposure can affect the central nervous system, resulting in
impaired speech and movement. Bronchitis and some lung fibrosis have
been
reported. Repeated exposure to fluorides may cause excessive
calcification of the bone and calcification of ligaments of the ribs,
pelvis and spinal
column. May cause skin rash."

But they don't say that the problem is irreversible. That is it
progressive.

[sniped additional details]

I am posting from sci.life-extension and I am quite familiar with the
health effects of overdoses of manganese. In fact, that is one of the
reasons why I do not take certain mineral supplement combinations from
a supplier from which I get them for free.

If you are correct about the negligence and fraud of the
manufacturers, then I do agree with going after them for restitution.
However, I would still maintain that the more correct way to proceed
is to sue the employers and then to the extent that the employers are
blameless with respect to giving information and providing protection,
etc, they (the employers) should sue the manufacturers for fraudulent
sales of the products involved.

NONE OF THIS IS IN THE MSDS.

This is somewhat surprising since MSDSs that I have seen all have the
very worst case situations portrayed. All that one needs to do is look
at the MSDS for plain table salt (sodium chloride:
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/S3338.htm )
to see that. As always, "the dose makes the poison". Such worst
possible cases are generally included *precisely* so that the chemical
supplier is protected from any future blame for the mishandling of his
product by those who use it.

Thus, perhaps a code of silence between
the manufacturer and the employer. But by no means a full disclosure,
that is intended to reach the workers and allow them to take those
steps, e.g. through their unions, to gain protection at work.

One point that perhaps you and others are not aware is that the MSDS
is prepared by the manufacturer of the product according to a
government promulgated format. Therefore, different manufacturers may,
and generally will have somewhat different MSDSs.

--Paul Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

An amazing statement from someone who professes himself to be an anarchyist.


"Paul Wakfer" wrote in message
om...
(MMonheit) wrote in message
. com...
I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who you
should ethically go after.

--Paul Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

The political environement runs against.you. I will take great
satisfaction to see your and your concubine behind bars without no hope of
release. The tune will come .

"Paul Wakfer" wrote in message
om...

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who you
should ethically go after.

--Paul Wakfer

social contracting

Frank wrote:
"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...

In rec.crafts.metalworking Paul Wakfer wrote:

(MMonheit) wrote in message

. com...

I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who you
should ethically go after.

That's easy.
Whoevers got the deepest pockets.


Yes, and gather as many defendants as possible, that way in the end the
lawyers get millions in fees and the individual defendants get $200 and a
gift certificate for a free massage. I love lawyers.


Usually they don't even get that. A "good" lawyer takes all the money
and only allows the defendants to get a $200 discount coupon off full
retail price of future purchases of products from the offending companies.
That way the offending company receives more business and only has to
pay the lawyers. Lawyers find it easier to get out-of-court settlements
when they only go after lawyer fees. Its not all profit, everybody that
wins understands that they are required to make sufficient political
contribution to ensure the rules of game and not changed and its all
paid for by little people.

Its the only type of job in the world, other than government work, where
you can make your own work, force other people to pay your salary and
you get almost full control over the amount.

We now need a better system to deal with bad big companies and bad
lawyering.

Are you the troll that impersonates Paul Wakfer? Tom Pall?

"Tom Pall" wrote in message
...
The political environement runs against.you. I will take great
satisfaction to see your and your concubine behind bars without no hope of
release. The tune will come .

"Paul Wakfer" wrote in message
om...

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who
you
should ethically go after.

--Paul Wakfer

social contracting

"Steve Peterson" wrote in message ...
All this would have been nice to know as I used to sit inside the sceen
hopper of a crusher building up and hardfacing rock crusher rolls. My former
employer did not supply a respirator even when asked.

You were not forced to continue with your job. You could have demanded
protection and quit if it was not forthcoming. Workplace environment
effects on health and well-being are simply one of the many
characteristics of any job which should be evaluated when choosing a
job. If people approached life more often in this manner, then those
riskier jobs would either have to pay more compensation and/or give
more protection or they would not find employees willing to do the
work.
Furthermore, not supplying protection should not be grounds for a
lawsuit only concerning fraud to the extent that the employer
specifically gave you false information. He did not chain you to your
work place and force you to stay there and work under under
conditions.

The warning on the box
that the rods came in did not have any more info than 7018 rods back in the
80s.

Each person is responsible for himself and every individual needs to
constantly look out for his own welfare, since no one else can know
sufficiently what is his welfare (only he can truly know himself) or
has the direct self-interest in doing so.

Maybe that's what is wrong with me.

If your situation is not too bad, there are therapies which can help.
It is never too late to begin their investigation.

--Paul Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

So, what sort of exposure is dangerous? I weld less than 1 lb. a week
(probably less than 1 lb. a month) of stick as a hobbyist; am I in
danger of manganism?

What sort of respirator is adequate for this level of exposure -- is a
particulate mask sufficient, or does one need something more?

(MMonheit) wrote in message om...
(Paul Wakfer) wrote in message . com...
(MMonheit) wrote in message . com...
I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking for
older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone having
older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have contracted a
Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding rods and wires,
and who we believe were given inadequate warnings given on the MSDS
sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in order to help these welders
in their claims against the manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then they
are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers who did
not give their workers sufficient cautionary information, risk pay,
handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time exposure who you
should ethically go after.

--Paul Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

Paul,
Makes sense, to blame the employe, if the manufacturer gave adequate
warnings... But they don't give adequate warning. In fact, just the
opposite.

As early as 1972, there is a documented deception and lack of full
disclosure from the industry. Under oath, the president of Lincoln in
1972 admitted that he wrote a memo advising to, and I am paraphrasing,
"not let the word out about the dangers."

Even today, the MSDS is not adequate. For example, regarding
Manganese, the warning reads, "Long-term (chronic) overexposure to
welding fumes can lead to siderosis (iron deposits in lung) and may
affect pulmonary function. Manganese
overexposure can affect the central nervous system, resulting in
impaired speech and movement. Bronchitis and some lung fibrosis have
been
reported. Repeated exposure to fluorides may cause excessive
calcification of the bone and calcification of ligaments of the ribs,
pelvis and spinal
column. May cause skin rash."

But they don't say that the problem is irreversible. That is it
progressive.

ALL THEY SAY IS... "can affect the central nervous system, resulting
in impaired speech and movement". Here is what Manganism really is...

Mangansim is a disease which is very much like Parkinson's Disease in
its clinical presentation. It manifests with symptoms of fixed gaze,
bradykinesia, postural difficulty, tremor, rigidity and a decrease in
mental status. These are all traits of parkinsonism.

This is troublesome, since these symptoms were first associated with
manganese exposure in the scientific literature in 1837. Manganese,
when
exposed to the brain, can cause reductions of dopamine,
norepinephrine, and neuromelanin. It also causes neuronal loss and
gliosis in several areas of the brain. These, too, are characteristic
of parkinsonism.

Manganism is often irreversible, but can be reversed if it is
recognized and arrested in an early stage. It is typically defined in
three stages.4 The initial stage is vague. It is typified by malaise,
apathy, lethargy, anorexia and headaches.5 These symptoms are totally
nonspecific, and can be explained away as depression, physical or
mental exhaustion, or even the flu. This stage
is reversible. If the exposure can be discontinued, typically there
are no permanent sequellae.

If, however, exposure continues, then the symptoms will worsen, and
will manifest as impaired memory and judgment, psychological
disturbance, anxiety and possibly psychotic/hallucinogenic events
(sometimes called "manganese madness"). This stage can last from 30 to
90 days. On the effects of black oxide of magnesium when inhaled into
the lungs.

The third stage is the actionable phase, insofar as litigation is
concerned. In this stage, there is extremity dystonia, gait
disturbance, tremor, paresis, impaired coordination and facial
rigidity. Once the victim reaches this stage, the condition is
irreversible, and leads to complete disability. The condition mimics
Parkinson's disease, but is not totally identical. The differences
are subtle, but important to the legal causation analysis. First, the
tremor is called "intention tremor" in Manganism. This means that the
tremor is most pronounced while the victim is actively using various
muscles. In parkinsonism it is called a "resting tremor." Second, the
dystonia that is often associated with manganism is not generally
present in Parkinson's disease. Therapeutic doses of levodopa therapy
can impact on Parkinson's disease, but have no effect
upon manganism. Third, the areas of the brain that are affected differ
between the two conditions. In the manganism victim, the striatum and
globus palidus are the most likely affected areas. Conversely, in the
Parkinson's disease patient, it is the substantia nigra which is most
affected. In the Parkinson patient, the striatum and globus palidus
demonstrate only reduced dopamine concentrations.

NONE OF THIS IS IN THE MSDS. Thus, perhaps a code of silence between
the manufacturer and the employer. But by no means a full disclosure,
that is intended to reach the workers and allow them to take those
steps, e.g. through their unions, to gain protection at work.

Best,

Mike

(Andy Wakefield) wrote in
om:

So, what sort of exposure is dangerous? I weld less than 1 lb. a week
(probably less than 1 lb. a month) of stick as a hobbyist; am I in
danger of manganism?

What sort of respirator is adequate for this level of exposure -- is a
particulate mask sufficient, or does one need something more?

At most you need good ventilation. The amount of welding your doing is
insignificant.

The "Official" OSHA threshold limit for Magnesium Fume Particulate is 15
parts per cubic meter.

A pound of rod isnt anything. Near that. Although that is guessing on my
part.

A particulate mask wouldnt hurt in any case.



(MMonheit) wrote in message
om...
(Paul Wakfer) wrote in message
. com...
(MMonheit) wrote in message
. com...
I am seeking to obtain copies of MSDS sheets for welding rods and
welding wire, used in manufacturing. In particular, I am looking
for older warnings given on the welding rods and wires. Anyone
having older MSDS sheets, please contact me.

This is very important, as it relates to wedlers who have
contracted a Parkinson-like disease from the use of these welding
rods and wires, and who we believe were given inadequate warnings
given on the MSDS sheets. We need to obtain these sheets in
order to help these welders in their claims against the
manufacturers of these rods and wires.

-Mike

If the manufacturers of the welding rods and wire provided full
information about the potential toxicity of their products then
they are blameless. It is the employers of those affected workers
who did not give their workers sufficient cautionary information,
risk pay, handling and breathing equipment, and/or limited time
exposure who you should ethically go after.

--Paul Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
The Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

Paul,
Makes sense, to blame the employe, if the manufacturer gave adequate
warnings... But they don't give adequate warning. In fact, just the
opposite.

As early as 1972, there is a documented deception and lack of full
disclosure from the industry. Under oath, the president of Lincoln
in 1972 admitted that he wrote a memo advising to, and I am
paraphrasing, "not let the word out about the dangers."

Even today, the MSDS is not adequate. For example, regarding
Manganese, the warning reads, "Long-term (chronic) overexposure to
welding fumes can lead to siderosis (iron deposits in lung) and may
affect pulmonary function. Manganese
overexposure can affect the central nervous system, resulting in
impaired speech and movement. Bronchitis and some lung fibrosis have
been
reported. Repeated exposure to fluorides may cause excessive
calcification of the bone and calcification of ligaments of the ribs,
pelvis and spinal
column. May cause skin rash."

But they don't say that the problem is irreversible. That is it
progressive.

ALL THEY SAY IS... "can affect the central nervous system, resulting
in impaired speech and movement". Here is what Manganism really
is...

Mangansim is a disease which is very much like Parkinson's Disease in
its clinical presentation. It manifests with symptoms of fixed gaze,
bradykinesia, postural difficulty, tremor, rigidity and a decrease in
mental status. These are all traits of parkinsonism.

This is troublesome, since these symptoms were first associated with
manganese exposure in the scientific literature in 1837. Manganese,
when
exposed to the brain, can cause reductions of dopamine,
norepinephrine, and neuromelanin. It also causes neuronal loss and
gliosis in several areas of the brain. These, too, are characteristic
of parkinsonism.

Manganism is often irreversible, but can be reversed if it is
recognized and arrested in an early stage. It is typically defined in
three stages.4 The initial stage is vague. It is typified by malaise,
apathy, lethargy, anorexia and headaches.5 These symptoms are totally
nonspecific, and can be explained away as depression, physical or
mental exhaustion, or even the flu. This stage
is reversible. If the exposure can be discontinued, typically there
are no permanent sequellae.

If, however, exposure continues, then the symptoms will worsen, and
will manifest as impaired memory and judgment, psychological
disturbance, anxiety and possibly psychotic/hallucinogenic events
(sometimes called "manganese madness"). This stage can last from 30
to 90 days. On the effects of black oxide of magnesium when inhaled
into the lungs.

The third stage is the actionable phase, insofar as litigation is
concerned. In this stage, there is extremity dystonia, gait
disturbance, tremor, paresis, impaired coordination and facial
rigidity. Once the victim reaches this stage, the condition is
irreversible, and leads to complete disability. The condition mimics
Parkinson's disease, but is not totally identical. The differences
are subtle, but important to the legal causation analysis. First, the
tremor is called "intention tremor" in Manganism. This means that the
tremor is most pronounced while the victim is actively using various
muscles. In parkinsonism it is called a "resting tremor." Second, the
dystonia that is often associated with manganism is not generally
present in Parkinson's disease. Therapeutic doses of levodopa therapy
can impact on Parkinson's disease, but have no effect
upon manganism. Third, the areas of the brain that are affected
differ between the two conditions. In the manganism victim, the
striatum and globus palidus are the most likely affected areas.
Conversely, in the Parkinson's disease patient, it is the substantia
nigra which is most affected. In the Parkinson patient, the striatum
and globus palidus demonstrate only reduced dopamine concentrations.

NONE OF THIS IS IN THE MSDS. Thus, perhaps a code of silence between
the manufacturer and the employer. But by no means a full
disclosure, that is intended to reach the workers and allow them to
take those steps, e.g. through their unions, to gain protection at
work.

Best,

Mike