Today I bought and dragged home a welding outfit and I want to know if I
done good.

I paid $300 for:

40cf c2h2 tank 200psi (missing knob, I used a wrench to test)
60cf O2 tank 2000psi
sturdy hand truck for the above.
~25ft hose (gas and oxy) no cracking when I bend it
2 weldmark cutmaster regulators (apparently they're made by victor?)
(see below)
victor torch handle (wh-260c)
victor rosette (6-mfa-1)
victor cutting attachment (ca-250)
victor welding tips, 3 (0-w-1, 2-w-1, 4-w-1)
Original "super-Range" box and styro packing
Victor "oxy-fuel welding, cutting & heating guide"

All the copper is red-orange, all the brass is yellow, except the
largest welding tip is a bit discolored. They're all smooth and show
factory milling marks.

I didn't test it 'til I got it home. I found that initially the
acetylene regulator wouldn't stay at the original pressure I set it too
on the low side (3psi), and that when I was easing it up there was, for
a section of turn, no change in pressure, then a chunking sound when the
pressure jumped up a couple psi, then repeat... no change, then a chunk.

When I brought the pressure up through another chunk to 5psi, the
pressure remained constant. I don't know (yet) if lowering it to 3psi
again will show constant pressure when I open up the torch gas...

I used the rosette to test... I couldn't get the flames described in the
manual with that and don't know if I'm getting a good flame, but it was
way too bright to look at without protection anyway, and you can't see
colors through that glass!

I'd try again with a welding tip, but I'm reluctant to litter my place
with more soot.

The thing is, I was so eager to get this I didn't quibble about the
price, and the guy's real straight, clarified the price of each item for
me, and it felt good. He said the tanks are $100 each and you get them
replaced when they're filled, or charged that if you don't already have
them, so I got that welding kit minus the tanks for $100...

er
--
email not valid

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:43:32 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:

Today I bought and dragged home a welding outfit and I want to know if I
done good.

I paid $300 for:

40cf c2h2 tank 200psi (missing knob, I used a wrench to test)
60cf O2 tank 2000psi
sturdy hand truck for the above.
~25ft hose (gas and oxy) no cracking when I bend it
2 weldmark cutmaster regulators (apparently they're made by victor?)
(see below)
victor torch handle (wh-260c)
victor rosette (6-mfa-1)
victor cutting attachment (ca-250)
victor welding tips, 3 (0-w-1, 2-w-1, 4-w-1)
Original "super-Range" box and styro packing
Victor "oxy-fuel welding, cutting & heating guide"

All the copper is red-orange, all the brass is yellow, except the
largest welding tip is a bit discolored. They're all smooth and show
factory milling marks.

I didn't test it 'til I got it home. I found that initially the
acetylene regulator wouldn't stay at the original pressure I set it too
on the low side (3psi), and that when I was easing it up there was, for
a section of turn, no change in pressure, then a chunking sound when the
pressure jumped up a couple psi, then repeat... no change, then a chunk.

When I brought the pressure up through another chunk to 5psi, the
pressure remained constant. I don't know (yet) if lowering it to 3psi
again will show constant pressure when I open up the torch gas...

I used the rosette to test... I couldn't get the flames described in the
manual with that and don't know if I'm getting a good flame, but it was
way too bright to look at without protection anyway, and you can't see
colors through that glass!

I'd try again with a welding tip, but I'm reluctant to litter my place
with more soot.

The thing is, I was so eager to get this I didn't quibble about the
price, and the guy's real straight, clarified the price of each item for
me, and it felt good. He said the tanks are $100 each and you get them
replaced when they're filled, or charged that if you don't already have
them, so I got that welding kit minus the tanks for $100...

er

Sounds pretty good. You might want to check to see who will fill
them. Not all places will accept all tanks, though they tend to be
less fussy about the smaller ones like yours.

If your acetylene regulator turns out to need work, it's not horribly
expensive to have them rebuilt -- or buy a rebuilt. The last one I
bought, a Smith I think, was about $35.

You shouldn't be getting soot if the torch is getting oxygen, and the
(blue) flame from a rosebud should not be too bright to look at once
it is getting enough oxy. The goggles are really for working with
white-hot metal that is definitely too bright to look at. I never
use goggles when silverbrazing or heating to red for bending.

If you don't have flashback suppressors, they are strongly
recommended. Not to be overly dramatic, but they could save your life
and your shop. Most welding stores have dramatic photos.....

Don Foreman wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:43:32 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:

Today I bought and dragged home a welding outfit and I want to know if I
done good.

[snip description]

Sounds pretty good. You might want to check to see who will fill
them. Not all places will accept all tanks, though they tend to be
less fussy about the smaller ones like yours.

The guy mentioned I may need to go to one particular welding supply shop
to get them filled... it happens to be the closest.

If your acetylene regulator turns out to need work, it's not horribly
expensive to have them rebuilt -- or buy a rebuilt. The last one I
bought, a Smith I think, was about $35.

Oh that's good to know. This thing seems sketchy... it works but it
definitely freaks out if I turn the gas flow way up.

You shouldn't be getting soot if the torch is getting oxygen, and the
(blue) flame from a rosebud should not be too bright to look at once
it is getting enough oxy. The goggles are really for working with
white-hot metal that is definitely too bright to look at. I never
use goggles when silverbrazing or heating to red for bending.

Two things about that... first, I don't think I was getting soot with
the oxygen turned up--it was happening when I was lighting it. Also,
your description tells me I may not have had enough oxygen while
hardening a (plane) blade I'm making. It took forever to get it hot,
and I eventually had a thick skin of carbon on the metal.

But this brings up a another question. When I tried turning up the
oxygen to clean up the flame, it would extinguish the flame with a loud
pop. Why's that happening, and how can I avoid it? I'm fairly sure
that I'm not getting the hottest flame possible, more so after your
description.

If you don't have flashback suppressors, they are strongly
recommended. Not to be overly dramatic, but they could save your life
and your shop. Most welding stores have dramatic photos.....

Sounds important. Don't know what a flashback is... maybe it's what I
just described? According to the manual there are reverse flow check
valves in the torch handle.

er
--
email not valid

On 2006-01-08 22:43:32 -0800, Enoch Root said:

He said the tanks are $100 each and you get them
replaced when they're filled, or charged that if you don't already have
them, so I got that welding kit minus the tanks for $100...

Reasonable.

Check the date on the tanks.

Unless there is a "star" after the tank's code "3A1800" being an
example of a code for O2 without a star, and"3A1800*" being an example
of a code with a star, each tank must be within 5 years of the last
hydrotest date in order to be filled. 10 years if a star is present.

If you own the tanks, then it's your responsibility to have the tanks
tested, and most suppliers will perform the testing and filling in one
turnaround.

Even if you own the tanks, some suppliers will simply exchange tanks,
but in this case you surrender your tanks. But, you also get out from
under the requirement to test the tanks on your dime.

My tanks are somewhat special in that they are "sold" (to me) and are
especially painted so my supplier knows to do a "fill and return" and
not just an "exchange".

If the tanks you got with you setup are "owned" (by a supplier), then
these can legally be filled only at the owner's facility.

Victor is good stuff. Perhaps the best. I prefer Victor's "J" torch,
which is its so-called "aircraft" model.

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 03:33:22 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:



But this brings up a another question. When I tried turning up the
oxygen to clean up the flame, it would extinguish the flame with a loud
pop. Why's that happening, and how can I avoid it? I'm fairly sure
that I'm not getting the hottest flame possible, more so after your
description.

That's too much oxy. The book you got with the outfit must
describe how to adjust a torch to get an oxidizing, neutral or
reducing flame. A neutral flame is when you turn up the oxy just to
the point where you have only two blue cones, a bright inner cone
from each orifice and the more purplish rest of the flame.

If you don't have flashback suppressors, they are strongly
recommended. Not to be overly dramatic, but they could save your life
and your shop. Most welding stores have dramatic photos.....

Sounds important. Don't know what a flashback is... maybe it's what I
just described? According to the manual there are reverse flow check
valves in the torch handle.

Same thing. You're OK.

On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:14:42 -0800, Peter Haas
wrote:

On 2006-01-08 22:43:32 -0800, Enoch Root said:

He said the tanks are $100 each and you get them
replaced when they're filled, or charged that if you don't already have
them, so I got that welding kit minus the tanks for $100...

Reasonable.

Check the date on the tanks.

Unless there is a "star" after the tank's code "3A1800" being an
example of a code for O2 without a star, and"3A1800*" being an example
of a code with a star, each tank must be within 5 years of the last
hydrotest date in order to be filled. 10 years if a star is present.

If you own the tanks, then it's your responsibility to have the tanks
tested, and most suppliers will perform the testing and filling in one
turnaround.

Even if you own the tanks, some suppliers will simply exchange tanks,
but in this case you surrender your tanks. But, you also get out from
under the requirement to test the tanks on your dime.

My tanks are somewhat special in that they are "sold" (to me) and are
especially painted so my supplier knows to do a "fill and return" and
not just an "exchange".

If the tanks you got with you setup are "owned" (by a supplier), then
these can legally be filled only at the owner's facility.

Victor is good stuff. Perhaps the best. I prefer Victor's "J" torch,
which is its so-called "aircraft" model.

Practices differ in different areas, so it's best to check with your
gas supplier. In MN, small tanks (40 cf and less, don't know about
60's) are considered "owner" tanks. Mine do have datecodes on them,
but nobody seems to worry about them. I own my larger tanks also
but the suppliers charge me a small annual "mainenance fee" on each
larger tank -- which, over 10 years or so, amounts to the cost of a
hydro test.

The larger tanks are "registered" in my name and have the gas service
company's name on them. Only the place where they are registered
will fill them -- although it's no problem to transfer the
registration from one company to another. They do that routinely.
My reason for transferring mine was to use a more conveniently-located
supplier. Then when I brought my MT in to exchange for a full one,
I got a tank from that place and the old one presumably went back to
the other company somehow.

I can take the smaller tanks anywhere and exchange them for full ones.

Peter Haas wrote:
On 2006-01-08 22:43:32 -0800, Enoch Root said:

He said the tanks are $100 each and you get them
replaced when they're filled, or charged that if you don't already have
them, so I got that welding kit minus the tanks for $100...


Reasonable.

Check the date on the tanks.

Unless there is a "star" after the tank's code "3A1800" being an example
of a code for O2 without a star, and"3A1800*" being an example of a code
with a star, each tank must be within 5 years of the last hydrotest date
in order to be filled. 10 years if a star is present.

If you own the tanks, then it's your responsibility to have the tanks
tested, and most suppliers will perform the testing and filling in one
turnaround.

Even if you own the tanks, some suppliers will simply exchange tanks,
but in this case you surrender your tanks. But, you also get out from
under the requirement to test the tanks on your dime.

My tanks are somewhat special in that they are "sold" (to me) and are
especially painted so my supplier knows to do a "fill and return" and
not just an "exchange".

If the tanks you got with you setup are "owned" (by a supplier), then
these can legally be filled only at the owner's facility.

Victor is good stuff. Perhaps the best. I prefer Victor's "J" torch,
which is its so-called "aircraft" model.

Thanks for that. I still have good pressure (although heating that
plane cutter took forever) so I'll wait to see what they say at the
welding supply shop.

er
--
email not valid

Don Foreman wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 03:33:22 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:



But this brings up a another question. When I tried turning up the
oxygen to clean up the flame, it would extinguish the flame with a loud
pop. Why's that happening, and how can I avoid it? I'm fairly sure
that I'm not getting the hottest flame possible, more so after your
description.


That's too much oxy. The book you got with the outfit must
describe how to adjust a torch to get an oxidizing, neutral or
reducing flame. A neutral flame is when you turn up the oxy just to
the point where you have only two blue cones, a bright inner cone
from each orifice and the more purplish rest of the flame.

Well, I'll have to try it with a welding tip, then, because I'm either
getting a carbon buildup on the workpiece, and a big bright flame, or
(when I add more oxy) I get the blowout. :-/

Maybe the rosette is messed up internally...

If you don't have flashback suppressors, they are strongly
recommended. Not to be overly dramatic, but they could save your life
and your shop. Most welding stores have dramatic photos.....

Sounds important. Don't know what a flashback is... maybe it's what I
just described? According to the manual there are reverse flow check
valves in the torch handle.


Same thing. You're OK.

Hey I won't blow up... that's good. Looking a little more carefully
through the manual, there's a warning bar regarding "backflash".

That would have been a tad high around here, but it's a reasonable price IF
those are owner tanks. Many many tanks sold as owner tanks are actually rental
tanks, which you find out when you go to the welding supply to swap bottles, and
they say "oh, those are owner tanks, thanks for returning them" and you're out
your $$$. Hopefully this isn't the case.

When a regulator's secondary gauge shows a steadily increasing reading, you have
a bad seat. Your seat seems to be a little sticky but working. I'd just go ahead
and use it until you have reason to believe it isn't working. Victor regulators
can be rebuilt, don't worry.

Pay close attention to the setup in that book, and follow the steps exactly.
Especially set your gas pressures as it indicates. If you don't know what to set
them to, try 6 and 10 for your acetylene and oxygen respectively, for a small
welding tip.

To shut off the torch, quickly shut off the gas valve on the torch, then repeat
with the oxygen valve. Then go to your cylinders, and shut off both cylinders,
then open one valve on the torch to bleed off the pressure, then the other, then
spin out the regulator handles until they turn freely. This last step is
important, otherwise when you open the cylinder valve again the seat will slam
against its stop and over time it will fail much more quickly.

Grant

Enoch Root wrote:

Today I bought and dragged home a welding outfit and I want to know if I
done good.

I paid $300 for:

40cf c2h2 tank 200psi (missing knob, I used a wrench to test)
60cf O2 tank 2000psi
sturdy hand truck for the above.
~25ft hose (gas and oxy) no cracking when I bend it
2 weldmark cutmaster regulators (apparently they're made by victor?)
(see below)
victor torch handle (wh-260c)
victor rosette (6-mfa-1)
victor cutting attachment (ca-250)
victor welding tips, 3 (0-w-1, 2-w-1, 4-w-1)
Original "super-Range" box and styro packing
Victor "oxy-fuel welding, cutting & heating guide"

All the copper is red-orange, all the brass is yellow, except the
largest welding tip is a bit discolored. They're all smooth and show
factory milling marks.

I didn't test it 'til I got it home. I found that initially the
acetylene regulator wouldn't stay at the original pressure I set it too
on the low side (3psi), and that when I was easing it up there was, for
a section of turn, no change in pressure, then a chunking sound when the
pressure jumped up a couple psi, then repeat... no change, then a chunk.

When I brought the pressure up through another chunk to 5psi, the
pressure remained constant. I don't know (yet) if lowering it to 3psi
again will show constant pressure when I open up the torch gas...

I used the rosette to test... I couldn't get the flames described in the
manual with that and don't know if I'm getting a good flame, but it was
way too bright to look at without protection anyway, and you can't see
colors through that glass!

I'd try again with a welding tip, but I'm reluctant to litter my place
with more soot.

The thing is, I was so eager to get this I didn't quibble about the
price, and the guy's real straight, clarified the price of each item for
me, and it felt good. He said the tanks are $100 each and you get them
replaced when they're filled, or charged that if you don't already have
them, so I got that welding kit minus the tanks for $100...

er

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:43:32 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:

Today I bought and dragged home a welding outfit and I want to know if I
done good.

Sounds like you done pretty darned good to me.

I paid $300 for:

40cf c2h2 tank 200psi (missing knob, I used a wrench to test)

That is more commonly referred to as a "B" size Acetylene tank. And
they don't come with a knob, you use a little dogbone wrench to open
them. Put a piece of small chain in the other hole and loop it around
the regulator to keep the wrench from wandering away.

60cf O2 tank 2000psi
sturdy hand truck for the above.
~25ft hose (gas and oxy) no cracking when I bend it
2 weldmark cutmaster regulators (apparently they're made by victor?)
(see below)
victor torch handle (wh-260c)
victor rosette (6-mfa-1)
victor cutting attachment (ca-250)
victor welding tips, 3 (0-w-1, 2-w-1, 4-w-1)
Original "super-Range" box and styro packing
Victor "oxy-fuel welding, cutting & heating guide"

Make sure there are flashback arrestors on the hoses at the torch
handle.

All the copper is red-orange, all the brass is yellow, except the
largest welding tip is a bit discolored. They're all smooth and show
factory milling marks.

I didn't test it 'til I got it home. I found that initially the
acetylene regulator wouldn't stay at the original pressure I set it too
on the low side (3psi), and that when I was easing it up there was, for
a section of turn, no change in pressure, then a chunking sound when the
pressure jumped up a couple psi, then repeat... no change, then a chunk.

When I brought the pressure up through another chunk to 5psi, the
pressure remained constant. I don't know (yet) if lowering it to 3psi
again will show constant pressure when I open up the torch gas...

They are non venting regulators, when you turn it down the output
pressure will hold until you open the torch valve to bleed it.

I used the rosette to test... I couldn't get the flames described in the
manual with that and don't know if I'm getting a good flame, but it was
way too bright to look at without protection anyway, and you can't see
colors through that glass!

I'd try again with a welding tip, but I'm reluctant to litter my place
with more soot.

Use a welding tip for testing - you really shouldn't be using a
Rosebud tip with a single B cylinder, and you have to be careful to
check the gas consumption charts with the larger sizes of welding
tips, too. You can only draw off 1/7 of the Acetylene in the tank per
hour (about 5 CFH on a B) or you start sucking the Acetone inside the
cylinder out with the gas and burning it, which does wacky sooty nasty
green-colored things to the flame.

For running big torch tips you need big acetylene bottles, and/or a
manifold system to share the load between multiple bottles.

And you do NOT want that Acetone level to run low inside the
cylinder, or the pressure past the regulator to EVER go above 15 PSI.
Google "Acetylene Deflagration" and learn. (It just decides to go
BOOM!!! and levels the garage - this is not good...)

And running Acetylene through copper tubing or high-copper alloys of
bronze or aluminum bronze can form acetylide oxides that are explosive
and unstable - not good. The bronze alloy they use for the regulators
tips and fittings is deliberately chosen. Same thing for any oil or
grease in the Oxygen system.

The thing is, I was so eager to get this I didn't quibble about the
price, and the guy's real straight, clarified the price of each item for
me, and it felt good. He said the tanks are $100 each and you get them
replaced when they're filled, or charged that if you don't already have
them, so I got that welding kit minus the tanks for $100...

The small sizes are all customer owned, they just exchange them
one-for-one and charge for the refill.

They usually lease you the larger size cylinders for an annual fee,
with an immediate exchange. And if you use them enough they'll send
the truck by your shop to deliver fresh bottles when you call.

If you're going to do real work, you'll want to get a second set of
Acetylene and Oxygen cylinders anyway - per Murphy's Law, at least one
of them will run out 5 minutes after the local welding supply has
closed for the weekend.

Keep your Scrounging Eye open - I got two of the smallest MC size
(10CF) Acetylene tanks for $1 at a Garage Sale simply because I knew
what they were, and exchanged them straight across for a B tank at my
welding supply. You can do the same thing with exchanging surplus
Medical Oxygen tanks for Welding sizes, as long as they aren't marked
as owned by a supplier.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Grant Erwin wrote:
That would have been a tad high around here, but it's a reasonable price
IF those are owner tanks. Many many tanks sold as owner tanks are
actually rental tanks, which you find out when you go to the welding
supply to swap bottles, and they say "oh, those are owner tanks, thanks
for returning them" and you're out your $$$. Hopefully this isn't the case.

When a regulator's secondary gauge shows a steadily increasing reading,
you have a bad seat. Your seat seems to be a little sticky but working.
I'd just go ahead and use it until you have reason to believe it isn't
working. Victor regulators can be rebuilt, don't worry.

Pay close attention to the setup in that book, and follow the steps
exactly. Especially set your gas pressures as it indicates. If you don't
know what to set them to, try 6 and 10 for your acetylene and oxygen
respectively, for a small welding tip.

I've been using 5 and 25... but the manual says 5 and 20, though... next
time I'll try that and see if I'm still getting the aggressive flame.

To shut off the torch, quickly shut off the gas valve on the torch, then
repeat with the oxygen valve. Then go to your cylinders, and shut off
both cylinders, then open one valve on the torch to bleed off the
pressure, then the other, then spin out the regulator handles until they
turn freely. This last step is important, otherwise when you open the
cylinder valve again the seat will slam against its stop and over time
it will fail much more quickly.

Thanks, it always helps me to know why I'm doing something and what the
consequences are of not doing it. Otherwise it's a dry old "insert tab
A into slot A".

er
--
email not valid

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:43:32 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:

40cf c2h2 tank 200psi (missing knob, I used a wrench to test)

That is more commonly referred to as a "B" size Acetylene tank. And
they don't come with a knob, you use a little dogbone wrench to open
them. Put a piece of small chain in the other hole and loop it around
the regulator to keep the wrench from wandering away.

Heh. Now I can say I know more about something than the guy I bought it
from.

Make sure there are flashback arrestors on the hoses at the torch
handle.

Check. At least, according to the manual, they are internal to the
torch handle.

I used the rosette to test... I couldn't get the flames described in the
manual with that and don't know if I'm getting a good flame, but it was
way too bright to look at without protection anyway, and you can't see
colors through that glass!

I'd try again with a welding tip, but I'm reluctant to litter my place
with more soot.


Use a welding tip for testing - you really shouldn't be using a
Rosebud tip with a single B cylinder, and you have to be careful to
check the gas consumption charts with the larger sizes of welding
tips, too. You can only draw off 1/7 of the Acetylene in the tank per
hour (about 5 CFH on a B) or you start sucking the Acetone inside the
cylinder out with the gas and burning it, which does wacky sooty nasty
green-colored things to the flame.

I think I may have experienced that. The flame was not following my
expectations, and when I had it on high for awhile I got a buildup of
carbon crud on the exit holes of the rosette that fell off and tried to
burn things. Luckily by then I'd moved the equipment to concrete pad
outside.

For running big torch tips you need big acetylene bottles, and/or a
manifold system to share the load between multiple bottles.

And you do NOT want that Acetone level to run low inside the
cylinder, or the pressure past the regulator to EVER go above 15 PSI.
Google "Acetylene Deflagration" and learn. (It just decides to go
BOOM!!! and levels the garage - this is not good...)

Jeez. I think I've not been cautious enough. Thanks.

And running Acetylene through copper tubing or high-copper alloys of
bronze or aluminum bronze can form acetylide oxides that are explosive
and unstable - not good. The bronze alloy they use for the regulators
tips and fittings is deliberately chosen. Same thing for any oil or
grease in the Oxygen system.

The regulator lines have some kind of sintered metal wall inside, and
the handle and tips are just of brass (except the top of the tip, which
appears to be copper)... maybe ok?

The thing is, I was so eager to get this I didn't quibble about the
price, and the guy's real straight, clarified the price of each item for
me, and it felt good. He said the tanks are $100 each and you get them
replaced when they're filled, or charged that if you don't already have
them, so I got that welding kit minus the tanks for $100...

If you're going to do real work, you'll want to get a second set of
Acetylene and Oxygen cylinders anyway - per Murphy's Law, at least one
of them will run out 5 minutes after the local welding supply has
closed for the weekend.

With all the testing and inefficient heating I've done that's advice I
should heed, or I'll be idle soon.

er
--
email not valid

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:17:48 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 03:33:22 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:



But this brings up a another question. When I tried turning up the
oxygen to clean up the flame, it would extinguish the flame with a loud
pop. Why's that happening, and how can I avoid it? I'm fairly sure
that I'm not getting the hottest flame possible, more so after your
description.


That's too much oxy. The book you got with the outfit must
describe how to adjust a torch to get an oxidizing, neutral or
reducing flame. A neutral flame is when you turn up the oxy just to
the point where you have only two blue cones, a bright inner cone
from each orifice and the more purplish rest of the flame.

Well, I'll have to try it with a welding tip, then, because I'm either
getting a carbon buildup on the workpiece, and a big bright flame, or
(when I add more oxy) I get the blowout. :-/

Maybe the rosette is messed up internally...

It might just be dirty. If you didn't get a tip cleaner with the
kit, pick one up at a welding store. They're only a buck or two.

Check your oxy pressure and torch valve by turning on just oxy without
the torch lit, and see if adjusting the torch valve results in a
smooth variation of oxy flow -- you can feel the little breeze on
your cheek. If your pressure from the regulator is too high the flow
could be hard to adjust with the torch valve, and if there's something
loose in the torch valve it might not adjust smoothly.

I'm assuming that you've run the torch enough already so the oxy line
is purged of air. The fact that it pops suggests that it is, and
that the gas in the oxy bottle really is oxygen rather than argon or
MIG mix.

Check your book for recommended pressures. Oxy pressure for cutting
is considerably higher than that used with rosebuds and welding tips.
I'd guess at about 5 psi for both fuelgas and oxy, but check your
book. Oxy pressure for cutting would be more like 20 to 40 PSI --
which would certainly blow out a rosebud or welding tip with a rather
small opening of the torch's oxy valve.

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 23:28:41 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:
..

I've been using 5 and 25... but the manual says 5 and 20, though... next
time I'll try that and see if I'm still getting the aggressive flame.

Bingo. Those are cutting torch settings, not for rosebud or welding
tip. Start with 5 and 5, work your way up with torch valves wide open
until the torch almost blows out, then adjust from there with the
torch valves. My Smith, Meco and Marquette torches seem to like
same presssure on both gasses, but torches do vary.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 23:28:41 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:
.

I've been using 5 and 25... but the manual says 5 and 20, though... next
time I'll try that and see if I'm still getting the aggressive flame.


Bingo. Those are cutting torch settings, not for rosebud or welding
tip. Start with 5 and 5, work your way up with torch valves wide open
until the torch almost blows out, then adjust from there with the
torch valves. My Smith, Meco and Marquette torches seem to like
same presssure on both gasses, but torches do vary.

I was coming to that while pondering why I couldn't get a decent flame
without a blowout. Thanks. I'll try it.

Reviewing my mistake: I was using pressures from a section of the
manual (and repeated in some notes that didn't specify the use) for
testing for leaks... boneheaded. Now looking further ahead, I find some
tables.

For welding tips the pressures are around equal... Thanks again.

er
--
email not valid

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 23:54:37 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:43:32 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:

40cf c2h2 tank 200psi (missing knob, I used a wrench to test)

That is more commonly referred to as a "B" size Acetylene tank. And
they don't come with a knob, you use a little dogbone wrench to open
them. Put a piece of small chain in the other hole and loop it around
the regulator to keep the wrench from wandering away.

Heh. Now I can say I know more about something than the guy I bought it
from.

The trick is not to let the seller know /you/ know until after
you've agreed on a fair price - they might smell blood and raise the
price out of the reasonable range. Then you have to explain the next
paragraph to them.

A fair price to you may sound low compared to retail prices for the
same item new - but it isn't new, and has no warranty. If it turns
out later to have a problem, you paid too much for something that'll
have to be tossed, or need replacement parts, or to be professionally
repaired, so in the end it all works out.

Sellers balk when I offer them a buck for an old fire extinguisher -
but I'm buying it to use it, not for a room decoration. I have to pay
$15 to $20 for a hydrotest and recharge, so if they want $15 for one
that's out of hydro (usually 6 years on a CO2, 12 on a Dry Chem) they
just made it cheaper to buy a new one.

And you do NOT want that Acetone level to run low inside the
cylinder, or the pressure past the regulator to EVER go above 15 PSI.
Google "Acetylene Deflagration" and learn. (It just decides to go
BOOM!!! and levels the garage - this is not good...)

Jeez. I think I've not been cautious enough. Thanks.

Everyone needs a wakeup call sometimes - preferably not a fatal one.

Where it gets difficult is in transporting tanks in a car - you MUST
keep the cylinders strapped down while moving them, and moving them
upright is better because the Acetylene cylinders have a heat
sensitive fusible plug in the valve, and if it pops you don't want all
the Acetone coming out too. The oxygen cylinders have a rupture disk
as a relief valve, so they let out their contents when full cylinders
are overheated and the pressure goes up past the burst point.

Keep the cylinders cool, and allow for lots of ventilation. Store
them at home out of the sun, secured upright. Most suppliers will not
load the bottles if you don't have an open truck - but you may not own
a truck, so improvise to get it as safe as possible. Don't close the
trunk all the way - put an empty cardboard box over the latch and
strap the lid down leaving a big gap for ventilation. Load the
cylinders up, strap them down, go straight to the welding supply to
get full bottles, and straight home to unload them. No parking in the
sun for an hour at the market.

There are photos out there of wonderful free-form metal sculptures -
that used to be a car or van before a cylinder went off inside them...
"Awesome Blossom", indeed. ;-) The Welding Supply probably has one
or two on the wall to point at when people wonder why they refused.

Just google'd up a very recent example for you -
http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories...7711&ran=95047

HFatal car explosion likely caused by acetylene tank in trunk
H By MATTHEW ROY, The Virginian-Pilot
H© January 6, 2006 | Last updated 11:12 PM Jan. 5
H
HNORFOLK — An explosion that killed a man and reduced a car to a
Hscorched shell on Dec. 24 was likely an accident caused by an
Hacetylene tank in the trunk, fire officials said Thursday.
HThey also released the identity of the victim, who had been in
Hthe car, as Errol Tony Mack, 34, of Virginia Beach.
H
HHe was killed when the car blew up near the Kappatal Cuts salon
Hin the 1400 block of Ballentine Blvd. at 4:30 p.m. on Christmas
HEve. The car was engulfed in flames when firefighters arrived.
H
HMack was involved in some sort of heating, ventilation and air-
Hconditioning work, said Battalion Chief Bruce Evans of Norfolk
HFire-Rescue. Acetylene is used by welders and plumbers to fuel
Htorches.
H
HIt appears that acetylene gas leaked into the trunk and was
Hignited, possibly by an electrical spark, he said.
HEvidence showed the explosion occurred in the rear of the car.
H
HThe state medical examiner’s office identified Mack and found
Hthat he was killed by blunt-force trauma and “heat inhalation,”
Haccording to Evans.
H
HThe findings are preliminary, and items from the car have been
Hsent to a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Hlaboratory for tests, which may take several weeks.
H
HReach Matthew Roy at (757) 446-2540 or .

And that was probably a 'MC' 10CF Acetylene & 20CF Oxygen
'Porta-Tote' size torch kit, very popular for silver-brazing HVACR
linesets. Very easy to toss in the trunk and forget all about...

And running Acetylene through copper tubing or high-copper alloys of
bronze or aluminum bronze can form acetylide oxides that are explosive
and unstable - not good. The bronze alloy they use for the regulators
tips and fittings is deliberately chosen. Same thing for any oil or
grease in the Oxygen system.

The regulator lines have some kind of sintered metal wall inside, and
the handle and tips are just of brass (except the top of the tip, which
appears to be copper)... maybe ok?

If it's sold for Acetylene service, it will be made of one of the
proper brass or bronze alloys. They all know the rules - but you
might not know yet, which could be really dangerous, because when you
don't follow these rules someone can get killed. This isn't
frivolous like a 55MPH speed limit, No lip service allowed.

No Experimenting, No Improvising With Gas Regulators, Fittings,
Hoses or Lines. Buy the right stuff. No using a chunk of copper
tubing to extend the acetylene line, or using one of your old shop air
hoses that has air tool oil or compressor oil carry-over residues
inside as a makeshift oxygen line...

If you buy a used oxygen regulator and even suspect that it's not
squeaky clean inside, have the welding supply service and clean it.
If that Acetylene regulator keeps 'sticking' like that, get it checked
out, too. If some dope did something stupid like cross-threaded the
diaphragm cover onto the main body, it could come apart with some
serious energy behind it.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 23:54:37 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:43:32 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:
40cf c2h2 tank 200psi (missing knob, I used a wrench to test)

That is more commonly referred to as a "B" size Acetylene tank. And
they don't come with a knob, you use a little dogbone wrench to open
them. Put a piece of small chain in the other hole and loop it around
the regulator to keep the wrench from wandering away.

Heh. Now I can say I know more about something than the guy I bought it
from.

The trick is not to let the seller know /you/ know until after
you've agreed on a fair price - they might smell blood and raise the
price out of the reasonable range. Then you have to explain the next
paragraph to them.

I wouldn't by jack from someone like that.

I like being open about everything, including my ignorance. If he isn't
the same I probably wouldn't even find myself looking his stuff over.
He offered me a fair price, told me the new price (three times what I
paid... for the welding kit minus the tanks and cart.) and explained his
pricing for the tanks (the cart was a gimme.)

Unfortunately, this makes it very difficult for me to find a mechanic.

A fair price to you may sound low compared to retail prices for the
same item new - but it isn't new, and has no warranty. If it turns
out later to have a problem, you paid too much for something that'll
have to be tossed, or need replacement parts, or to be professionally
repaired, so in the end it all works out.

There's the heart of the problem, I didn't know what a fair price was,
and so let him give me one. I felt comfortable doing it, too.

And you do NOT want that Acetone level to run low inside the
cylinder, or the pressure past the regulator to EVER go above 15 PSI.
Google "Acetylene Deflagration" and learn. (It just decides to go
BOOM!!! and levels the garage - this is not good...)

Jeez. I think I've not been cautious enough. Thanks.


Everyone needs a wakeup call sometimes - preferably not a fatal one.

I was talking in the round, of course. I never pushed the pressure
beyond what I found printed in the manual and user notes, but having
read all the BAD things that can happen with this kit, in this thread,
I'm wondering how long I have to keep it alive to get them all.

Or, be a little more focused and diligent while reading the manual.

[transporting tanks in a car]
There are photos out there of wonderful free-form metal sculptures -
that used to be a car or van before a cylinder went off inside them...
"Awesome Blossom", indeed. ;-) The Welding Supply probably has one
or two on the wall to point at when people wonder why they refused.

Just google'd up a very recent example for you -
http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories...7711&ran=95047

Heh. Google images is your friend:

http://www.nasoceana.navy.mil/safety...neincident.htm

I have no intention of storing the tanks in a car, and I'm pondering
some form of protective covering for the valve (these lack threading for
a bell cover). Even if it were a neutral gas this would be a danger...

But they are always (when I'm not (in the future) hauling them to the
supply shop) in a cool dark place, and I'm only (now) using them outside.

My fear is not knowing the more esoteric dangers inherent to the
equipment. Must read more...

er
--
email not valid

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:04:29 -0800, Enoch Root
wrote:
Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

I was talking in the round, of course. I never pushed the pressure
beyond what I found printed in the manual and user notes, but having
read all the BAD things that can happen with this kit, in this thread,
I'm wondering how long I have to keep it alive to get them all.

Long (Million-to-one) odds only means it is not impossible. And
every so often you have the chance to do stupid things and be The
Proverbial "Other Guy" that all the bad stuff in life happens to.

Or, be a little more focused and diligent while reading the manual.

Exactly the reaction I was going for - RTFM is the mantra.

When they say 'fasten the cylinders' you know why, and you do it.

And when you look at that Navy photo, now you know why I said to
wedge a box and leave the trunk lid with a big gap for ventilation,
and get them out as soon as you get home. He was storing the bottles
in the back seat of the closed cab all the time, and inside the sealed
camper shell top would be no better. Even with both windows left open
on the shell all the time it would be only marginally safe.

I have a Utility Bed on my truck with a special side compartment
punched full of louvers designed for safe Oxy/Acetylene bottle
storage. And even at that I don't leave them in there all the time,
because it still gets very hot in there when parked in the sun.

I have no intention of storing the tanks in a car, and I'm pondering
some form of protective covering for the valve (these lack threading for
a bell cover). Even if it were a neutral gas this would be a danger...

You can special order small tanks with the threaded collars and
safety caps, but it's not usually done on the small sizes - and if you
want to keep those tanks with the collars you can't toss them into the
exchange pool, it locks you into the week-long wait for your own "user
tanks" to be trucked to the plant, filled, and returned.

The small tanks don't have enough contents to fly far if you break
the valve off, and they're not heavy enough to break their own valves
while falling over unless all the planets are aligned precisely wrong.
So just being careful with your tank handling practices will suffice.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.