I'm about to make some welded square tube picture frames and have been
looking into various blueing products. 44/40 runs about $8.50 for 2 oz.
Oxpho-blue runs about $9.50 for 4 oz. Van's Instant is about $10 for 4 oz.
Hoppes runs about 9$ for 4 oz.

I'm wondering what folks here have found to work best on mild steel. Any
hints or tricks?

Oxpho-blue -- and just follow the Brownell directions

Roger

"JensenC" farview at frontier dot net wrote in message
...
I'm about to make some welded square tube picture frames and have been
looking into various blueing products. 44/40 runs about $8.50 for 2 oz.
Oxpho-blue runs about $9.50 for 4 oz. Van's Instant is about $10 for 4
oz.
Hoppes runs about 9$ for 4 oz.

I'm wondering what folks here have found to work best on mild steel. Any
hints or tricks?

A friend of mine that gunsmiths uses a recipe of 50/50 (IIRC) sodium hydroxide (Lye) and ammonium nitrate in a boiling solution. Yields a really durable black oxide finish. I think the solution boils at 250F minimum. Steel parts are dunked for 5 - 10 minutes.

Depending on where you're located, obviously it may be edgey trying to get the ammonium nitrate. But, you ought to be able to get a small quantity without a lot of headache, even these days.

joe

Sorry about the bad memory. I was way off. Here's a more accurate recipe and process that I found on Google:

Here is the information I promised, taken from "Gunsmithing" by Roy
F. Dunlap. (Excellent book, btw.)

5 pounds sodium hydroxide.
2.5 pounds ammonium nitrate.
1 gallon water.


The following is a condensed version of his instructions:


Working temperature is between 285 and 295 degrees F. When you mix
the solution, do it outdoors, as a considerable amount of ammonia gas
is given off. From 15 to 40 minutes in the bath are required. To use
this solution, the metal parts are degreased either by a commercial
detergent like Oakite, a solution of lye, solution or washing with
solvent, dried, and placed in the tank. After bluing, they are rinsed
in water, either cold or warm, and dried and oiled.


If you have hard water, it is a very good idea to use rainwater or
distilled water.


According to Dunlap, this finish is more durable than any other he has
seen. I have used it for a couple of shotgun receivers and various
small parts, and have been very pleased with the results. It seems to
wear at least as well as the original finish from Miroku.


Ole-Hj. Kristensen

Joe

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 06:21:57 +0000, Joepy
wrote:

A friend of mine that gunsmiths uses a recipe of 50/50 (IIRC) sodium
hydroxide (Lye) and ammonium nitrate in a boiling solution.

That's "melting", not "boiling". Melting this stuff is bad enough! You
don't need the caustic soda, but you have to choose between a higher
melting point, or a lower eutectic melting point and a mixture that's
now caustic as well as a powerful oxidiser. I can't over-emphasise what
a fire hazard this stuff is - splashes onto a wooden workbench are quite
capable of starting fires.

Yields a really durable black oxide finish.

Shame to go to all this trouble and just end up with black. This is one
of the few blueing processes where it's also easy to get good variegated
colour blueing effects.

For "art steelwork", then hot oil blueing is attractive too, but IMHO
we've all seen a bit too much of this stuff coming in as cheap import
tat for the last few years. I've stopped making it.

If you're doing any blueing, go read some really old gunsmithing books
first. This stuff isn't new, but there is quite a bit of skill and
experimenation to it.

This is a timely thread. I was checking my older long guns last night
and noticed the mediocre bluing job I did on a CVA HAwken kit decades
ago now needs re-doing in a proper manner. I deep dark blue or black is
preferred. I'm saving all these emails for a free Saturday.

So, where does one buy ammonium nitrate these days?

Rex in Ft Worth

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 06:21:57 +0000, Joepy
wrote:


A friend of mine that gunsmiths uses a recipe of 50/50 (IIRC) sodium
hydroxide (Lye) and ammonium nitrate in a boiling solution.


That's "melting", not "boiling". Melting this stuff is bad enough! You
don't need the caustic soda, but you have to choose between a higher
melting point, or a lower eutectic melting point and a mixture that's
now caustic as well as a powerful oxidiser. I can't over-emphasise what
a fire hazard this stuff is - splashes onto a wooden workbench are quite
capable of starting fires.


Yields a really durable black oxide finish.


Shame to go to all this trouble and just end up with black. This is one
of the few blueing processes where it's also easy to get good variegated
colour blueing effects.

For "art steelwork", then hot oil blueing is attractive too, but IMHO
we've all seen a bit too much of this stuff coming in as cheap import
tat for the last few years. I've stopped making it.

If you're doing any blueing, go read some really old gunsmithing books
first. This stuff isn't new, but there is quite a bit of skill and
experimenation to it.

A friend of mine that gunsmiths uses a recipe of 50/50 (IIRC) sodium
hydroxide (Lye) and ammonium nitrate in a boiling solution.


That's "melting", not "boiling". Melting this stuff is bad enough! You
don't need the caustic soda, but you have to choose between a higher
melting point, or a lower eutectic melting point and a mixture that's
now caustic as well as a powerful oxidiser. I can't over-emphasise what
a fire hazard this stuff is - splashes onto a wooden workbench are quite
capable of starting fires.

So what do people heat this stuff up with, and in?
I'm looking at a ~20" barrel from a Hawken.

IIRC, for the original job I heated it in an oven, then wiped on the
bluing agent (Birchwood Casey something) while it was still 400 degrees
or so. Instant blue, but not as deep or as uniform as I wanted.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:47:17 -0700, "JensenC" farview at frontier dot
net wrote:

I'm about to make some welded square tube picture frames and have been
looking into various blueing products. 44/40 runs about $8.50 for 2 oz.
Oxpho-blue runs about $9.50 for 4 oz. Van's Instant is about $10 for 4 oz.
Hoppes runs about 9$ for 4 oz.

I'm wondering what folks here have found to work best on mild steel. Any
hints or tricks?

http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/black.htm

Black oxide concentrate to make up 1.25 gallon of solution $22.00.
or $33.00 for a quart of concentrate that makes up 2.5 gallons of
working soup.

Unlike Oxpho blue and others which must be wiped on, you can immerse
parts in the Caswell stuff. It does not need to be heated. It
makes a nice dense black. It isn't as durable as hot salts
processes, but it's very easy to use and it looks nice. I've
blackened a number of small parts in a quart of it I mixed up probably
5 years ago. It still works fine.

The penetrating sealer works well, but I think it's just linseed oil
and solvent.

Yep Caswells black oxide works fine. I look at the penetrating sealnat
they supply more as a linseed/cosmoline mix.....but either way its
pretty good.

After setting for awhile the mix may appear to cloud up or have
accumulated snow in it, but just shake it up well, run it through a
few coffee strainer filters, and use it. It will still work just fine.
I fyou do not remove the snow accumulations any of the sediment that
may happen to get on the part will give it a spotted effect...and
coffee filters work fine to remove them.

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:11:45 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:
On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:47:17 -0700, "JensenC" farview at frontier dot
net wrote:

I'm about to make some welded square tube picture frames and have been
looking into various blueing products. 44/40 runs about $8.50 for 2 oz.
Oxpho-blue runs about $9.50 for 4 oz. Van's Instant is about $10 for 4 oz.
Hoppes runs about 9$ for 4 oz.

I'm wondering what folks here have found to work best on mild steel. Any
hints or tricks?

http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/black.htm

Black oxide concentrate to make up 1.25 gallon of solution $22.00.
or $33.00 for a quart of concentrate that makes up 2.5 gallons of
working soup.

Unlike Oxpho blue and others which must be wiped on, you can immerse
parts in the Caswell stuff. It does not need to be heated. It
makes a nice dense black. It isn't as durable as hot salts
processes, but it's very easy to use and it looks nice. I've
blackened a number of small parts in a quart of it I mixed up probably
5 years ago. It still works fine.

The penetrating sealer works well, but I think it's just linseed oil
and solvent.


--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder! Koi-ahoi mates....

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 10:45:21 -0600, Rex B wrote:

So what do people heat this stuff up with, and in?
I'm looking at a ~20" barrel from a Hawken.

Iron kettles. Avoid stainless, wrought or cast iron are better. If you
weld one up from mild steel it will work fine, just not last so long.

Heating should be electric and thermostatic, for easy control. Get some
firebricks and set cheap oven elements into grooves in the top. You
don't even need to grout with fire cement (expansion tends to blow it
out anyway) and you certainly don't need bare-wire elements. The only
expensive part is a good controller - any industrial electrical supplier
will have these and they're still cheaper than most kiln specialists. A
kitchen "simmerstat" or triac phase controller is almost enough, but you
have to guard manually against overheating - these just control power,
not temperature. Accurate thermocouple meters are dirt cheap these days
- crazy not to have one.

Nitrates are available from lab chemical suppliers. They _will_ still
deal with you, if you're patient. Failing that you can use fertilisers
or refine horse urine (crystallised leachate from a big pile of used
bedding straw is simpler to work with than draught). The purity you need
is trivial in comparison to pyro uses.

An awful lot of successful hot bluing gets done on the kitchen stove in
a stainless fish kettle. It works OK, but I wouldn't recommend it - this
stuff is just too hazardous. Personally I only work on stuff this crazy
if I'm outdoors and "firefighting" can just be a question of leaving it
to burn itself out.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 10:45:21 -0600, Rex B wrote:


So what do people heat this stuff up with, and in?
I'm looking at a ~20" barrel from a Hawken.


Iron kettles. Avoid stainless, wrought or cast iron are better. If you
weld one up from mild steel it will work fine, just not last so long.

Heating should be electric and thermostatic, for easy control. Get some
firebricks and set cheap oven elements into grooves in the top. You
don't even need to grout with fire cement (expansion tends to blow it
out anyway) and you certainly don't need bare-wire elements. The only
expensive part is a good controller - any industrial electrical supplier
will have these and they're still cheaper than most kiln specialists. A
kitchen "simmerstat" or triac phase controller is almost enough, but you
have to guard manually against overheating - these just control power,
not temperature. Accurate thermocouple meters are dirt cheap these days
- crazy not to have one.

Nitrates are available from lab chemical suppliers. They _will_ still
deal with you, if you're patient. Failing that you can use fertilisers
or refine horse urine (crystallised leachate from a big pile of used
bedding straw is simpler to work with than draught). The purity you need
is trivial in comparison to pyro uses.

An awful lot of successful hot bluing gets done on the kitchen stove in
a stainless fish kettle. It works OK, but I wouldn't recommend it - this
stuff is just too hazardous. Personally I only work on stuff this crazy
if I'm outdoors and "firefighting" can just be a question of leaving it
to burn itself out.

Sounds like a lot of effort for a single barrel.
Thanks for the detailed response.

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 13:23:02 -0600, Rex B wrote:

Sounds like a lot of effort for a single barrel.

Well the kettle can come from a kitchen shop, or just 5 minutes with the
welder if you need an extra long one. A portable electric hotplate is a
good thing for any workshop.

The business with the horse **** is because everyone who shoots black
powder secretly hankers after producing their own saltpetre and then
gunpowder, just to **** off the regulators 8-)

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 13:23:02 -0600, Rex B wrote:


Sounds like a lot of effort for a single barrel.


Well the kettle can come from a kitchen shop, or just 5 minutes with the
welder if you need an extra long one. A portable electric hotplate is a
good thing for any workshop.

The business with the horse **** is because everyone who shoots black
powder secretly hankers after producing their own saltpetre and then
gunpowder, just to **** off the regulators 8-)

If you don't have a horse, you can plumb the outhouse like they did in
the South during the War of Northern Aggression.

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:14:02 -0600, Rex B wrote:

If you don't have a horse, you can plumb the outhouse like they did in
the South during the War of Northern Aggression.

I'm from Lancashire. Those Yorkshire types over the hill used to
collect barrels of it. Supposedly it was for washing woolen fleeces down
in the sheepmines, but I've been to Tadcaster and I know the real
secret.

Human urine is of little use though - you want horses, because you want
big high-volume herbivores and cows have a relatively wetter diet, so
it's more dilute.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:14:02 -0600, Rex B wrote:


If you don't have a horse, you can plumb the outhouse like they did in
the South during the War of Northern Aggression.


I'm from Lancashire. Those Yorkshire types over the hill used to
collect barrels of it. Supposedly it was for washing woolen fleeces down
in the sheepmines, but I've been to Tadcaster and I know the real
secret.

Human urine is of little use though - you want horses, because you want
big high-volume herbivores and cows have a relatively wetter diet, so
it's more dilute.

No personal experience. I just recall a civil-war era photo in one of
the Foxfire books, in the article about rifle-making.