There was an article on page B1 of the 12 December 2005 issue of The
Wall Street Journal, "Demand Pops for Furnaces That Burn Corn". Basic
point is that corn costs less than ordinary fuels (which has to be a
consequence of farm subsidies, one would think). They also tell of
discouraging someone living in an apartment on the 33rd floor of a
Manhattan apartment building from getting a corn furnace, if for no
other reason that cheap corn isn't exactly common outside of the corn
belt.

Joe Gwinn

Joseph Gwinn wrote in news:JoeGwinn-
:

There was an article on page B1 of the 12 December 2005 issue of The
Wall Street Journal, "Demand Pops for Furnaces That Burn Corn". Basic
point is that corn costs less than ordinary fuels (which has to be a
consequence of farm subsidies, one would think). They also tell of
discouraging someone living in an apartment on the 33rd floor of a
Manhattan apartment building from getting a corn furnace, if for no
other reason that cheap corn isn't exactly common outside of the corn
belt.

Joe Gwinn


Is corn still cheap once you remove all of the Federal subsidies? And how
much fossil fuel and fossil fertilizer goes into corn versus other enery-
producing crops, e.g. rapeseed or hemp? I don't know, just asking.

--
John Snow
"Pull hard and it comes easy"

In article ,
Hitch wrote:
Joseph Gwinn wrote in news:JoeGwinn-
:

There was an article on page B1 of the 12 December 2005 issue of The
Wall Street Journal, "Demand Pops for Furnaces That Burn Corn". Basic
point is that corn costs less than ordinary fuels (which has to be a
consequence of farm subsidies, one would think). They also tell of
discouraging someone living in an apartment on the 33rd floor of a
Manhattan apartment building from getting a corn furnace, if for no
other reason that cheap corn isn't exactly common outside of the corn
belt.

Joe Gwinn


Is corn still cheap once you remove all of the Federal subsidies? And how
much fossil fuel and fossil fertilizer goes into corn versus other enery-
producing crops, e.g. rapeseed or hemp? I don't know, just asking.


I've read that the energy outputs for growing corn for BTUs give you a
30% over energy inputs (tractor fuel, fertilizer, insecticides). If
irrigation is required the figure wil be lower.

I think there are less tangible costs in intensive monoculture (soil
depletion, erosion, maybe others) and IMO growing corn for heat
doens't sound like a good idea. It certainly makes sense to use the
waste where you find it, but don't grow it.

In the name of domestic energy freedom the Taxpayers pay companies
like ADM[1] to grow corn for ethanol. This is a scam. Ethanol
production has a byproduct, lysine, which is worth more than the
ethanol and ADM has paid what was at the time the largest antitrust
fine ever becuase it cornered the lysine market bases on taxpaer corn
subsidies.

From [1] ...According to the Cato Institute, "ADM has cost the
American economy billions of dollars since 1980 and has indirectly
cost Americans tens of billions of dollars in higher prices and
higher taxes over that same period. At least 43 percent of ADM's
annual profits are from products heavily subsidized or protected by
the American government. Moreover, every $1 of profits earned by
ADM's corn sweetener operation costs consumers $10, and every $1 of
profits earned by its ethanol operation costs taxpayers $30."

In 1996, ADM was the subject of the largest price fixing
investigation in history. Senior ADM executives were indicted on
criminal charges for engaging in price-fixing with in the
international lysine market. Three of ADM's top officials,
including vice chairman Michael Andreas, were sentenced to federal
prison in 1999 and the company was fined $100 million, the largest
antitrust fine ever. ADM's annual report 20

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Daniels_Midland





--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.

Hitch wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote in news:JoeGwinn-
:

There was an article on page B1 of the 12 December 2005 issue of The
Wall Street Journal, "Demand Pops for Furnaces That Burn Corn". Basic
point is that corn costs less than ordinary fuels (which has to be a
consequence of farm subsidies, one would think). They also tell of
discouraging someone living in an apartment on the 33rd floor of a
Manhattan apartment building from getting a corn furnace, if for no
other reason that cheap corn isn't exactly common outside of the corn
belt.

Joe Gwinn


Is corn still cheap once you remove all of the Federal subsidies? And how
much fossil fuel and fossil fertilizer goes into corn versus other enery-
producing crops, e.g. rapeseed or hemp? I don't know, just asking.

--
John Snow
"Pull hard and it comes easy"

Moldy corn is real cheap. It burns just as well but the animals don't
like it, and it screws up the milk.

Average yield per acre is about 3 tons. The cost of production per acre
is roughly 75 to 100 dollars per acre.( These are prices including
fertilizer and seeding when we planted in the 90's. Land rental cost was
10 dollars per acre) a pound of seed provides 7,200 British thermal
units (Btu) of heat content, compared to the 10,500 Btu/pound heat
content of coal. Locally, coal is costing 120 dollars per
ton(antricite) 1 ton of coal is equivalent heat to 200 gallons of oil.

John

What they dont' talk about is that an oil or gas boiler/furnace will run at
85% efficiency or better. A corn, wood, or wood pellet will run at much
lower efficiency. So these experts need to factor that into the calculation.
The fuel is cheap but most of it goes up the chimmney.

Tony

"John" wrote in message
...
Hitch wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote in news:JoeGwinn-
:

There was an article on page B1 of the 12 December 2005 issue of The
Wall Street Journal, "Demand Pops for Furnaces That Burn Corn". Basic
point is that corn costs less than ordinary fuels (which has to be a
consequence of farm subsidies, one would think). They also tell of
discouraging someone living in an apartment on the 33rd floor of a
Manhattan apartment building from getting a corn furnace, if for no
other reason that cheap corn isn't exactly common outside of the corn
belt.

Joe Gwinn


Is corn still cheap once you remove all of the Federal subsidies? And
how
much fossil fuel and fossil fertilizer goes into corn versus other
enery-
producing crops, e.g. rapeseed or hemp? I don't know, just asking.

--
John Snow
"Pull hard and it comes easy"

Moldy corn is real cheap. It burns just as well but the animals don't
like it, and it screws up the milk.

Average yield per acre is about 3 tons. The cost of production per acre
is roughly 75 to 100 dollars per acre.( These are prices including
fertilizer and seeding when we planted in the 90's. Land rental cost was
10 dollars per acre) a pound of seed provides 7,200 British thermal
units (Btu) of heat content, compared to the 10,500 Btu/pound heat
content of coal. Locally, coal is costing 120 dollars per
ton(antricite) 1 ton of coal is equivalent heat to 200 gallons of oil.

John

I will agree that my coal stove wastes more heat, but I pay $155 per ton of
coal and will burn about 3-1/2 tons each winter. I heat a 2300 sf house in
CT. This winter has been colder than normal so far so my coal use might be
up, if it stays this cold it will be up. I will then have to buy the coal
local in bags @ $220 per ton. If this happens I will buy only what I need.
My heating costs are less then the houses next to me, some burning oil,
others Propane. BUT the coal is WORK, far less then wood but still work. I
have a few acres of very wooded land so I burn wood in my stove also, next
year I will burn 3 cords of wood (had a massive oak taken down) so I will
use less coal.
"Tony" wrote in message
...
What they dont' talk about is that an oil or gas boiler/furnace will run
at
85% efficiency or better. A corn, wood, or wood pellet will run at much
lower efficiency. So these experts need to factor that into the
calculation.
The fuel is cheap but most of it goes up the chimmney.

Tony

"John" wrote in message
...
Hitch wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote in news:JoeGwinn-
:

There was an article on page B1 of the 12 December 2005 issue of The
Wall Street Journal, "Demand Pops for Furnaces That Burn Corn".
Basic
point is that corn costs less than ordinary fuels (which has to be a
consequence of farm subsidies, one would think). They also tell of
discouraging someone living in an apartment on the 33rd floor of a
Manhattan apartment building from getting a corn furnace, if for no
other reason that cheap corn isn't exactly common outside of the corn
belt.

Joe Gwinn


Is corn still cheap once you remove all of the Federal subsidies? And
how
much fossil fuel and fossil fertilizer goes into corn versus other
enery-
producing crops, e.g. rapeseed or hemp? I don't know, just asking.

--
John Snow
"Pull hard and it comes easy"

Moldy corn is real cheap. It burns just as well but the animals don't
like it, and it screws up the milk.

Average yield per acre is about 3 tons. The cost of production per acre
is roughly 75 to 100 dollars per acre.( These are prices including
fertilizer and seeding when we planted in the 90's. Land rental cost was
10 dollars per acre) a pound of seed provides 7,200 British thermal
units (Btu) of heat content, compared to the 10,500 Btu/pound heat
content of coal. Locally, coal is costing 120 dollars per
ton(antricite) 1 ton of coal is equivalent heat to 200 gallons of oil.

John

I have been burning wood fiber pellets for 3 years and it sure beat the
labor involved in cutting/splitting wood (which is available on my property
or near by)..

The efficiency of a modern pellet/corn stove are up around 85%. If you
don't believe the literature, just place your had on the unjacketed flue
pipe of a well tuned pellet stove.

My present stove (Quadri-Fire) is capable of burning corn but will not
ignite automatically unless there is about 25% mix of pellets. Once lite, it
will burn until the thermostat turns it off. On pellets, it will run on
automatic continuously, as long as there is a thermostat demand and fuel in
the hopper. It will re-ignite automatically on pellets.

The only other maintenance is a weekly clean of the small amount of fine ash
and an annual cleaning of the heat exchanger. Good quality pellets only have
about 1% ash.

Not sure of these figures for corn but have heard they are similar.

If I had a good supply of corn in my Pac. NW area, I would give it a try..
Pellets presently cost me $139 a ton or about.

I can heat my very old mfg home (1152 sq/ft) on about 3 ton a year.

The stove is of marginal size, 40,000 btus but provides as much heat as I
need.

I consider corn a renewable energy source while wood pellets are presently a
wood by-product. The local demand for wood fiber for paper and partial board
may soon drive the price of wood pellet high enough that corn my be the next
alternative.
--
My experience and opinion, FWIW

In article ,
Steve wrote:
I have been burning wood fiber pellets for 3 years and it sure beat the
labor involved in cutting/splitting wood (which is available on my property
or near by)..

The efficiency of a modern pellet/corn stove are up around 85%. If you
don't believe the literature, just place your had on the unjacketed flue
pipe of a well tuned pellet stove.

My present stove (Quadri-Fire) is capable of burning corn but will not
ignite automatically unless there is about 25% mix of pellets. Once lite, it
will burn until the thermostat turns it off. On pellets, it will run on
automatic continuously, as long as there is a thermostat demand and fuel in
the hopper. It will re-ignite automatically on pellets.

The only other maintenance is a weekly clean of the small amount of fine ash
and an annual cleaning of the heat exchanger. Good quality pellets only have
about 1% ash.

Not sure of these figures for corn but have heard they are similar.

If I had a good supply of corn in my Pac. NW area, I would give it a try..
Pellets presently cost me $139 a ton or about.

I can heat my very old mfg home (1152 sq/ft) on about 3 ton a year.

The stove is of marginal size, 40,000 btus but provides as much heat as I
need.

I consider corn a renewable energy source while wood pellets are presently a
wood by-product. The local demand for wood fiber for paper and partial board
may soon drive the price of wood pellet high enough that corn my be the next
alternative.
--
My experience and opinion, FWIW




Can scrap paper be pelletized for your furnace?

Nobody's mentioned the pollution aspects of home heating. A megawatt
coal plant can use technology that, AFAIK, isn't in a home furnace.
In the 70s I was reading about towns in snow country requiring
catalytic coverters in new construction.







--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.

"Tony" wrote in message
...
What they dont' talk about is that an oil or gas boiler/furnace will run
at
85% efficiency or better. A corn, wood, or wood pellet will run at much
lower efficiency. So these experts need to factor that into the
calculation.
The fuel is cheap but most of it goes up the chimmney.


No they don't. Corn stoves are not like normal wood stoves. Most burn at
around 85% efficiency.

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:iYzpf.631664$x96.78127@attbi_s72...

"Tony" wrote in message
...
What they dont' talk about is that an oil or gas boiler/furnace will run
at
85% efficiency or better. A corn, wood, or wood pellet will run at much
lower efficiency. So these experts need to factor that into the
calculation.
The fuel is cheap but most of it goes up the chimmney.


No they don't. Corn stoves are not like normal wood stoves. Most burn at
around 85% efficiency.

How do they burn at such a high efficiency, Dave? I've never looked into
those things.

--
Ed Huntress

The only other maintenance is a weekly clean of the small amount of fine
ash
and an annual cleaning of the heat exchanger. Good quality pellets only
have
about 1% ash.


My stove burns corn, or wood pellets, but doesn't self ignite. I get corn
for $80.00 per ton, while local wood pellets started the season at $150. per
ton. I burnt a ton of wood pellets 1st because they were easy to handle in
40 pound bags. I'm now burning corn in bulk because it's cheaper. Corn and
wood pellets have nearly the same BTU's per pound, but the corn is much
dirtier to burn. With wood pellets, I cleaned the ashes about every 4 days.
With corn, it's every day.

Can scrap paper be pelletized for your furnace?


I'm sure it can. But, afaik, they are only pelletizing saw dust at present.
Demands for wood pellets have gone up tremedously. In fact, they're tough to
find around here.

If I had the time, I would build a stove similar to a pellet stove but with
a larger auger so it could handle wood chips. My thought is you could get
all the free wood you wanted delivered to your door from one of many tree
triming companies.


Nobody's mentioned the pollution aspects of home heating. A megawatt
coal plant can use technology that, AFAIK, isn't in a home furnace.
In the 70s I was reading about towns in snow country requiring
catalytic coverters in new construction.


The new wood pellet and corn stoves are cleaner than most gas heaters. The
corn stoves are considered CO2 neutral because the corn consumes CO2 when it
is grown, then releases it when it's burned.

As you mentioned, small residential units cannot compete with large electric
plants though.

No they don't. Corn stoves are not like normal wood stoves. Most burn
at
around 85% efficiency.

How do they burn at such a high efficiency, Dave? I've never looked into
those things.

--
Ed Huntress



They are a sealed unit. They don't use a traditional chimney, so you're not
wasting all that heat up your flue. Instead, they use a blower that controls
the amount of air that is introduced into the fire. Then, the waste gasses
are blown out through a vent in the wall. They also have a series of tubes
inside the burn box that air is blown through to transfer the heat to the
house.

Forcing air into the burn box makes for a very hot flame. My stove has
"fingers" that stir the corn while it's burning that are made from 1/2" cold
rolled steel. When my stove is on it's highest setting, those fingers glow
red. I get 55,000 btu from a burn box about the size of a half loaf of
bread.

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:3pApf.631698$x96.497631@attbi_s72...

No they don't. Corn stoves are not like normal wood stoves. Most burn
at
around 85% efficiency.

How do they burn at such a high efficiency, Dave? I've never looked into
those things.

--
Ed Huntress



They are a sealed unit. They don't use a traditional chimney, so you're
not
wasting all that heat up your flue. Instead, they use a blower that
controls
the amount of air that is introduced into the fire. Then, the waste gasses
are blown out through a vent in the wall. They also have a series of tubes
inside the burn box that air is blown through to transfer the heat to the
house.

Forcing air into the burn box makes for a very hot flame. My stove has
"fingers" that stir the corn while it's burning that are made from 1/2"
cold
rolled steel. When my stove is on it's highest setting, those fingers glow
red. I get 55,000 btu from a burn box about the size of a half loaf of
bread.

That's interesting. I'll have to take a look sometime. The exhaust sounds
like some of the modern gas furnaces. And stirring the corn sounds almost
like burning in a fuidized bed. Does the air blow through the burning corn,
or over it?

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:18:51 -0600, Hitch wrote:

Is corn still cheap once you remove all of the Federal subsidies?

Who cares? Out of pocket expense is lower, period.

And how
much fossil fuel and fossil fertilizer goes into corn versus other enery-
producing crops, e.g. rapeseed or hemp? I don't know, just asking.

Dunno. If subsidizing corn farmers can offset the amount of money we
send to people who want to kill us, I'm all for it.

Dave Hinz

"Al Dykes" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Steve wrote:

-snip-



Can scrap paper be pelletized for your furnace?

Nobody's mentioned the pollution aspects of home heating. A megawatt
coal plant can use technology that, AFAIK, isn't in a home furnace.
In the 70s I was reading about towns in snow country requiring
catalytic coverters in new construction.


there was a guy here locally who was an inventor and had huge stacks of
waxed cardboard boxes, was stockpiling them, he was developing a furnace
that ran on pelletized waxed cardboard boxes. his neighbors abhorred his
operation and eventually forced him to get rid of his huge piles of waxed
cardboard. was sad. i was hoping he'd succeed.

b.w.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:18:43 -0500, Tony wrote:
What they dont' talk about is that an oil or gas boiler/furnace will run at
85% efficiency or better. A corn, wood, or wood pellet will run at much
lower efficiency.

Cite, please?

So these experts need to factor that into the calculation.
The fuel is cheap but most of it goes up the chimmney.

Sounds like you've got solid data to back that up. I'd love to read it.

That's interesting. I'll have to take a look sometime. The exhaust sounds
like some of the modern gas furnaces. And stirring the corn sounds almost
like burning in a fuidized bed. Does the air blow through the burning
corn,
or over it?

The air blows through the corn.

Also, the combustion air is piped in from outside the house.

My Quadra Fire has a ceramic fire pot with a igniter hole in the bottom and
a few dozen air holes in the side. These side hole are angled to produce a
cyclone type fire. It is so hot that metal probes will burn up so the
pyrometer is housed in a ceramic shield.

This heat is dispersed and eventually passes over a stainless shield and
then an aluminum finned heat exchanger in the fire box and ultimately a
waste heat exchanger just before going out the flue pipe.

There is a small ash trap in the bottom of the flue that is suppose to
collect any fly ash but in 3 years, I have had less than a tea cup of ash.
( I get about a half gallon of ash from the fire box every ton of fuel. ) I
have very little soot and only wipe the glass windows (actually they are
clear ceramic) about once a week.

I can't see how this could be called less efficient than coal or oil.

Admittedly, if I had natural gas available I would switch over, just for the
convenience.


--
My experience and opinion, FWIW

Steve

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:tIApf.638866$_o.604585@attbi_s71...

That's interesting. I'll have to take a look sometime. The exhaust
sounds
like some of the modern gas furnaces. And stirring the corn sounds
almost
like burning in a fuidized bed. Does the air blow through the burning
corn,
or over it?

The air blows through the corn.

Well, that is something like a fluidized bed, then. That can be a very
efficient way to burn things.


Also, the combustion air is piped in from outside the house.

That hurts your combustion efficiency because it reduces flame temperatures,
but it reduces infiltration. In the tradeoff, it undoubtedly is a lot
better.

--
Ed Huntress

Thanks Al,

I handn't exchanged numbers or info about corn with anyone since I would
have to purchase corn from a feed store and doubt that I could get it for
anything near the cost of pellets.

We grow wood, not corn, where I live.

Steve

"Hitch" wrote in message
36...
Joseph Gwinn wrote in news:JoeGwinn-
:

There was an article on page B1 of the 12 December 2005 issue of The
Wall Street Journal, "Demand Pops for Furnaces That Burn Corn". Basic
SNIP

And how
much fossil fuel and fossil fertilizer goes into corn versus other enery-
producing crops, e.g. rapeseed or hemp? I don't know, just asking.

A bunch of my aqaintances burned a lot of hemp back in the 60's, and I have
to say it didn't produce much energy at all. Quite the opposite effect
really. It produced an abundance of lethargy.
Anon

In article G2Apf.638816$_o.438027@attbi_s71,
Dave Lyon wrote:

The only other maintenance is a weekly clean of the small amount of fine
ash
and an annual cleaning of the heat exchanger. Good quality pellets only
have
about 1% ash.


My stove burns corn, or wood pellets, but doesn't self ignite. I get corn
for $80.00 per ton, while local wood pellets started the season at $150. per
ton. I burnt a ton of wood pellets 1st because they were easy to handle in
40 pound bags. I'm now burning corn in bulk because it's cheaper. Corn and
wood pellets have nearly the same BTU's per pound, but the corn is much
dirtier to burn. With wood pellets, I cleaned the ashes about every 4 days.
With corn, it's every day.




How dry is that ton of corn? Water costs, twice, you pay for of on
delivery and you pay for it in the lowered process efficiency, right?

There's lots of woodchips around but they're wet, too. I assume
pellets are a byproduct of some manufacturering process that has
already dried the wood.

It's *real* hard to compare processes accurately. That's important at
a policy level but if you live in a woodlot or have access to corn,
national energy policy takes a back seat.


--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.

Hi, Steve.
I see you have one of the old fire pots in your Quadra Fire. I had to
replace the fire pot in ours a couple of years ago. A hole finally
burned through the side after about 10 years. We are the second owner
of the place, so the time frame is approximate.

We burn up to 4 ton of wood pellets here in Central Oregon. The cost
per ton is up to $170, now. We just started on the second ton this
week. We love the pellet stove fire. With socks on, I can put my feet
on the side panel and thaw my toes!

Last nite sometime, the oil furnace died. The pump won't turn and the
thermostat hs no control of the fan. It runs continually. Had to turn
off the CB to stop the cold draft. So the pellet stove or the fireplace
is the only heat we have till the oil furnace gets repaired. No, it's
not out of oil. Been there and done that! Sure hope the electricity
doesn't go out. It's 16 degrees here in Redmond, now.

Three years ago the local farm store and Quadra Fire dealer had a BIG
tent sale. The tent and all were from Quadra Fire. When I looked in,
there were no Quadra Fire stoves. The store's answere was the factory
was completely out of stoves and had a big back log. They were all
going to the mid-west to be used with corn. Guess they finally got
cought up.

Paul

How dry is that ton of corn? Water costs, twice, you pay for of on
delivery and you pay for it in the lowered process efficiency, right?

It's supposed to be below 15%. If not, the corn will start to mold, and it
won't burn well.


There's lots of woodchips around but they're wet, too. I assume
pellets are a byproduct of some manufacturering process that has
already dried the wood.

When the wood arives at the pelletizing plant, they grind it into sawdust,
then dry it. Then make pellets.

Sorry to hear they are charging you so much more for pellets. I have been
getting mine from the local TrueValue hardware store for the last 3 winters.
The price for "Clean Burn" pellets have ranged from 124/ton to the present
139/ton.

I have shopped around at HomeDepot and other outlets and couldn't match the
local TrueValue price. (maybe it is because he sells a few stoves, on the
side. The Much Higher prices has been from the Stove and Fireplace store and
they often claim they don't sell by the ton or they charge more because they
deliver (and if they deliver, they want to service your stove while they are
there).

I live at near sea level and the local temp. are seldom below 25-30 degrees,
even on the coldest winter days. I also turn the stove off or down very low
at night or if I'm the only one in the house. (sweaters are cheaper than
pellets.)



I had to replace the igniter the other day and the store ask if I had a
ceramic or steal fire pot. When I told them that I still had the original
ceramic pot, they were surprised. The claimed most all the original Quadra
Fire stoves had been upgraded because of breakage or burn through of the
ceramic. My stove is one of the originals since it doesn't have the pellet
flow "gate" that was introduced later. I have added this and it helps get
the fire to run at a lower flame (too much heat and it ends up going up the
flue).

I also have a heat pump but only run the fan to help circulate the warm air
from the living room, where the stove is at.

Go to hear that someone else enjoys their Quadri Fire as much as I do.

Steve

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi, Steve.
I see you have one of the old fire pots in your Quadra Fire. I had to
replace the fire pot in ours a couple of years ago. A hole finally
burned through the side after about 10 years. We are the second owner
of the place, so the time frame is approximate.

We burn up to 4 ton of wood pellets here in Central Oregon. The cost
per ton is up to $170, now. We just started on the second ton this
week. We love the pellet stove fire. With socks on, I can put my feet
on the side panel and thaw my toes!

Last nite sometime, the oil furnace died. The pump won't turn and the
thermostat hs no control of the fan. It runs continually. Had to turn
off the CB to stop the cold draft. So the pellet stove or the fireplace
is the only heat we have till the oil furnace gets repaired. No, it's
not out of oil. Been there and done that! Sure hope the electricity
doesn't go out. It's 16 degrees here in Redmond, now.

Three years ago the local farm store and Quadra Fire dealer had a BIG
tent sale. The tent and all were from Quadra Fire. When I looked in,
there were no Quadra Fire stoves. The store's answere was the factory
was completely out of stoves and had a big back log. They were all
going to the mid-west to be used with corn. Guess they finally got
cought up.

Paul

Wood pellets, if stored properly, will be around 5% moisture. They must be
stored in a dry location even though they are in a plastic bag. These bag
have small holes for some reason. "Moisture Is Your " and can lay waste to a
ton over night in the back of your pickup.

I was just re-reading the bag of some Clean Burn pellets. The ash content is
1/2% from this vendor. The BTU is 8200/LB. For my house, I use about one 40#
bag for 24hrs. (40#/24=1.67LB/hr or 8200X1.67=13667BTU/hr ), FWIW.

Steve


"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:nSGpf.639908$_o.289760@attbi_s71...

How dry is that ton of corn? Water costs, twice, you pay for of on
delivery and you pay for it in the lowered process efficiency, right?

It's supposed to be below 15%. If not, the corn will start to mold, and it
won't burn well.


There's lots of woodchips around but they're wet, too. I assume
pellets are a byproduct of some manufacturering process that has
already dried the wood.

When the wood arives at the pelletizing plant, they grind it into sawdust,
then dry it. Then make pellets.

Generally I like those in concept. Chip type anyway - corn is fine also.

I'd have an inverter on a battery on a charger - or a UPS large enough to last
blackouts...

Hard to turn the screw to crank fiber to the fire. Wish there were thermo couples
on the stack to generate the power to turn the screw! That might be an idea.
Then a small startup battery would do it in a blackout.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Steve wrote:
I have been burning wood fiber pellets for 3 years and it sure beat the
labor involved in cutting/splitting wood (which is available on my property
or near by)..

The efficiency of a modern pellet/corn stove are up around 85%. If you
don't believe the literature, just place your had on the unjacketed flue
pipe of a well tuned pellet stove.

My present stove (Quadri-Fire) is capable of burning corn but will not
ignite automatically unless there is about 25% mix of pellets. Once lite, it
will burn until the thermostat turns it off. On pellets, it will run on
automatic continuously, as long as there is a thermostat demand and fuel in
the hopper. It will re-ignite automatically on pellets.

The only other maintenance is a weekly clean of the small amount of fine ash
and an annual cleaning of the heat exchanger. Good quality pellets only have
about 1% ash.

Not sure of these figures for corn but have heard they are similar.

If I had a good supply of corn in my Pac. NW area, I would give it a try..
Pellets presently cost me $139 a ton or about.

I can heat my very old mfg home (1152 sq/ft) on about 3 ton a year.

The stove is of marginal size, 40,000 btus but provides as much heat as I
need.

I consider corn a renewable energy source while wood pellets are presently a
wood by-product. The local demand for wood fiber for paper and partial board
may soon drive the price of wood pellet high enough that corn my be the next
alternative.

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Al Dykes wrote:

In article ,
Steve wrote:
I have been burning wood fiber pellets for 3 years and it sure beat the
labor involved in cutting/splitting wood (which is available on my property
or near by)..

The efficiency of a modern pellet/corn stove are up around 85%. If you
don't believe the literature, just place your had on the unjacketed flue
pipe of a well tuned pellet stove.

My present stove (Quadri-Fire) is capable of burning corn but will not
ignite automatically unless there is about 25% mix of pellets. Once lite, it
will burn until the thermostat turns it off. On pellets, it will run on
automatic continuously, as long as there is a thermostat demand and fuel in
the hopper. It will re-ignite automatically on pellets.

The only other maintenance is a weekly clean of the small amount of fine ash
and an annual cleaning of the heat exchanger. Good quality pellets only have
about 1% ash.

Not sure of these figures for corn but have heard they are similar.

If I had a good supply of corn in my Pac. NW area, I would give it a try..
Pellets presently cost me $139 a ton or about.

I can heat my very old mfg home (1152 sq/ft) on about 3 ton a year.

The stove is of marginal size, 40,000 btus but provides as much heat as I
need.

I consider corn a renewable energy source while wood pellets are presently a
wood by-product. The local demand for wood fiber for paper and partial board
may soon drive the price of wood pellet high enough that corn my be the next
alternative.
--
My experience and opinion, FWIW



Can scrap paper be pelletized for your furnace?

Nobody's mentioned the pollution aspects of home heating. A megawatt
coal plant can use technology that, AFAIK, isn't in a home furnace.
In the 70s I was reading about towns in snow country requiring
catalytic coverters in new construction.

--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.

Some coal gen plants are burning corn as a secondary fuel.
It works out to be cheaper than coal.

John

Dave Lyon wrote:




Can scrap paper be pelletized for your furnace?


I'm sure it can. But, afaik, they are only pelletizing saw dust at present.
Demands for wood pellets have gone up tremedously. In fact, they're tough to
find around here.

If I had the time, I would build a stove similar to a pellet stove but with
a larger auger so it could handle wood chips. My thought is you could get
all the free wood you wanted delivered to your door from one of many tree
triming companies.

Nobody's mentioned the pollution aspects of home heating. A megawatt
coal plant can use technology that, AFAIK, isn't in a home furnace.
In the 70s I was reading about towns in snow country requiring
catalytic coverters in new construction.

The new wood pellet and corn stoves are cleaner than most gas heaters. The
corn stoves are considered CO2 neutral because the corn consumes CO2 when it
is grown, then releases it when it's burned.

As you mentioned, small residential units cannot compete with large electric
plants though.

I got a friend that grinds up old pallets. He sells the wood chips to
the co gen plant. Im not sure what he gets a ton but i know its not too
much. In the warmer months he dyes them and sells them for mulch.

John

I can't offer any specific cites because as far as I know the Department of
Energy doesn't test wood & corn stoves for efficiency like oil & gas
furnaces/boilers. There are only manufacturer's claims of efficiency, but no
objective standard that I know of. For oil & gas there is the DOE AFUE test
standards.

I would imagine a wood/corn furnace would have issues with contolling excess
air (reduces efficiency), off cycle losses, and actually cycling the unit on
& off to maintain a steady temperature. These factors are easily controlled
with oil/gas, not so with solid fuels. Can't imagine operating a solid fuel
boiler in the house unless your going to have a full time engineer adjusting
the fire, and extra relief valves! Oil/gas are easily cycled on/off to meet
the load.

A friend of mine had a wood pellet stove in his hunting lodge and I
certainly was impressed, it looked like a little blast furnace. But when I
hear claims about how much money is being saved I get skeptical, because you
need compare apples to apples. Keep in mind oil/gas furnaced/boilers have
had much more research & development towards improving efficiency.


Tony

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:18:43 -0500, Tony
wrote:
What they dont' talk about is that an oil or gas boiler/furnace will run
at
85% efficiency or better. A corn, wood, or wood pellet will run at much
lower efficiency.

Cite, please?

So these experts need to factor that into the calculation.
The fuel is cheap but most of it goes up the chimmney.

Sounds like you've got solid data to back that up. I'd love to read it.

Al Dykes wrote:

In article G2Apf.638816$_o.438027@attbi_s71,
Dave Lyon wrote:

The only other maintenance is a weekly clean of the small amount of fine
ash
and an annual cleaning of the heat exchanger. Good quality pellets only
have
about 1% ash.


My stove burns corn, or wood pellets, but doesn't self ignite. I get corn
for $80.00 per ton, while local wood pellets started the season at $150. per
ton. I burnt a ton of wood pellets 1st because they were easy to handle in
40 pound bags. I'm now burning corn in bulk because it's cheaper. Corn and
wood pellets have nearly the same BTU's per pound, but the corn is much
dirtier to burn. With wood pellets, I cleaned the ashes about every 4 days.
With corn, it's every day.



How dry is that ton of corn? Water costs, twice, you pay for of on
delivery and you pay for it in the lowered process efficiency, right?

There's lots of woodchips around but they're wet, too. I assume
pellets are a byproduct of some manufacturering process that has
already dried the wood.

It's *real* hard to compare processes accurately. That's important at
a policy level but if you live in a woodlot or have access to corn,
national energy policy takes a back seat.

--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.

Believe it or not a couple of corn stoves I looked at required at least
a 15 % moisture content to function properly. It was right in the
brochure. ?? Doesn't really make sense but...


John

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:tIApf.638866$_o.604585@attbi_s71...

That's interesting. I'll have to take a look sometime. The exhaust
sounds
like some of the modern gas furnaces. And stirring the corn sounds
almost
like burning in a fuidized bed. Does the air blow through the burning
corn,
or over it?

The air blows through the corn.

Well, that is something like a fluidized bed, then. That can be a very
efficient way to burn things.


Also, the combustion air is piped in from outside the house.

That hurts your combustion efficiency because it reduces flame temperatures,
but it reduces infiltration. In the tradeoff, it undoubtedly is a lot
better.

--
Ed Huntress

Any furnace should get its air from an outside source. You already paid
to heat the air inside the house at most a 95 percent efficency. The
outside air is part of the flame so it could be considered to be 100
percent heat transfer. You can get kits for your oil burner to burn
outside air. Also a guy I know put a kit on his burner and also a
damper to stop the air flow when the furnace isnt running to keep the
heat in the firebox and flue. He is working up data on the change of
efficiency now. He has to run it a couple of months to get some good
data.

John

Ed Huntress wrote:

"John" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:tIApf.638866$_o.604585@attbi_s71...

That's interesting. I'll have to take a look sometime. The exhaust
sounds
like some of the modern gas furnaces. And stirring the corn sounds
almost
like burning in a fuidized bed. Does the air blow through the
burning
corn,
or over it?

The air blows through the corn.

Well, that is something like a fluidized bed, then. That can be a very
efficient way to burn things.


Also, the combustion air is piped in from outside the house.

That hurts your combustion efficiency because it reduces flame
temperatures,
but it reduces infiltration. In the tradeoff, it undoubtedly is a lot
better.

--
Ed Huntress

Any furnace should get its air from an outside source. You already paid
to heat the air inside the house at most a 95 percent efficency. The
outside air is part of the flame so it could be considered to be 100
percent heat transfer. You can get kits for your oil burner to burn
outside air. Also a guy I know put a kit on his burner and also a
damper to stop the air flow when the furnace isnt running to keep the
heat in the firebox and flue. He is working up data on the change of
efficiency now. He has to run it a couple of months to get some good
data.

Outside air avoids air infiltration, but burning with cold air reduces
combustion efficiency. It's an old engineering problem from steam- and other
subfields of combustion engineering. Preheated air makes for a more
efficient system.

In a house, using already-heated ambient air, as you say, is bad economy.
Also, burning inside air draws in air from outside -- infiltration, which
knocks the hell out of your overall heating efficiency.

I thought it was worth pointing out that there is an engineering tradeoff,
as there so often is, but that it works out in favor of burning outside air.

If you burn softwood, burning with cold air can really foul up your chimney
because of incomplete combustion of tars, unless the system is designed for
it.

--
Ed Huntress

you need to get a good hot fire going to burn up the cresote in the
chimney before it gets a big accumulation. If you got an old chimney
with cracks in it, the creosote will leak through and catch on fire on
the outside and set the house on fire. A good chimney can stand a
creosote chimney fire but I would not recommend it.

John

You should remember, you need to run a combustion blow as well and with a
third hand (spouse) you crank the convection blower.

My stove has two combustion blowers, one blowing air through the fire pot
and another to draw a vacuum on the whole combustion chamber and draft up
the flue.

The reality is, for the automatic combustion pellet stove, it will take a
good size battery to keep the controls and blowers going, not to mention the
igniter.

Steve

"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
...
Generally I like those in concept. Chip type anyway - corn is fine also.

I'd have an inverter on a battery on a charger - or a UPS large enough to
last
blackouts...

Hard to turn the screw to crank fiber to the fire. Wish there were thermo
couples
on the stack to generate the power to turn the screw! That might be an
idea.
Then a small startup battery would do it in a blackout.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Steve wrote:
I have been burning wood fiber pellets for 3 years and it sure beat the
labor involved in cutting/splitting wood (which is available on my
property or near by)..

The efficiency of a modern pellet/corn stove are up around 85%. If you
don't believe the literature, just place your had on the unjacketed flue
pipe of a well tuned pellet stove.

My present stove (Quadri-Fire) is capable of burning corn but will not
ignite automatically unless there is about 25% mix of pellets. Once lite,
it will burn until the thermostat turns it off. On pellets, it will run
on automatic continuously, as long as there is a thermostat demand and
fuel in the hopper. It will re-ignite automatically on pellets.

The only other maintenance is a weekly clean of the small amount of fine
ash and an annual cleaning of the heat exchanger. Good quality pellets
only have about 1% ash.

Not sure of these figures for corn but have heard they are similar.

If I had a good supply of corn in my Pac. NW area, I would give it a
try.. Pellets presently cost me $139 a ton or about.

I can heat my very old mfg home (1152 sq/ft) on about 3 ton a year.

The stove is of marginal size, 40,000 btus but provides as much heat as I
need.

I consider corn a renewable energy source while wood pellets are
presently a wood by-product. The local demand for wood fiber for paper
and partial board may soon drive the price of wood pellet high enough
that corn my be the next alternative.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet
News==----
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Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=----

"John" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:tIApf.638866$_o.604585@attbi_s71...

That's interesting. I'll have to take a look sometime. The exhaust
sounds
like some of the modern gas furnaces. And stirring the corn sounds
almost
like burning in a fuidized bed. Does the air blow through the
burning
corn,
or over it?

The air blows through the corn.

Well, that is something like a fluidized bed, then. That can be a very
efficient way to burn things.


Also, the combustion air is piped in from outside the house.

That hurts your combustion efficiency because it reduces flame
temperatures,
but it reduces infiltration. In the tradeoff, it undoubtedly is a lot
better.

--
Ed Huntress

Any furnace should get its air from an outside source. You already paid
to heat the air inside the house at most a 95 percent efficency. The
outside air is part of the flame so it could be considered to be 100
percent heat transfer. You can get kits for your oil burner to burn
outside air. Also a guy I know put a kit on his burner and also a
damper to stop the air flow when the furnace isnt running to keep the
heat in the firebox and flue. He is working up data on the change of
efficiency now. He has to run it a couple of months to get some good
data.

Outside air avoids air infiltration, but burning with cold air reduces
combustion efficiency. It's an old engineering problem from steam- and other
subfields of combustion engineering. Preheated air makes for a more
efficient system.

In a house, using already-heated ambient air, as you say, is bad economy.
Also, burning inside air draws in air from outside -- infiltration, which
knocks the hell out of your overall heating efficiency.

I thought it was worth pointing out that there is an engineering tradeoff,
as there so often is, but that it works out in favor of burning outside air.

If you burn softwood, burning with cold air can really foul up your chimney
because of incomplete combustion of tars, unless the system is designed for
it.

--
Ed Huntress

John wrote:
Al Dykes wrote:

In article ,
Steve wrote:

I have been burning wood fiber pellets for 3 years and it sure beat the
labor involved in cutting/splitting wood (which is available on my property
or near by)..

The efficiency of a modern pellet/corn stove are up around 85%. If you
don't believe the literature, just place your had on the unjacketed flue
pipe of a well tuned pellet stove.

My present stove (Quadri-Fire) is capable of burning corn but will not
ignite automatically unless there is about 25% mix of pellets. Once lite, it
will burn until the thermostat turns it off. On pellets, it will run on
automatic continuously, as long as there is a thermostat demand and fuel in
the hopper. It will re-ignite automatically on pellets.

The only other maintenance is a weekly clean of the small amount of fine ash
and an annual cleaning of the heat exchanger. Good quality pellets only have
about 1% ash.

Not sure of these figures for corn but have heard they are similar.

If I had a good supply of corn in my Pac. NW area, I would give it a try..
Pellets presently cost me $139 a ton or about.

I can heat my very old mfg home (1152 sq/ft) on about 3 ton a year.

The stove is of marginal size, 40,000 btus but provides as much heat as I
need.

I consider corn a renewable energy source while wood pellets are presently a
wood by-product. The local demand for wood fiber for paper and partial board
may soon drive the price of wood pellet high enough that corn my be the next
alternative.
--
My experience and opinion, FWIW



Can scrap paper be pelletized for your furnace?

Nobody's mentioned the pollution aspects of home heating. A megawatt
coal plant can use technology that, AFAIK, isn't in a home furnace.
In the 70s I was reading about towns in snow country requiring
catalytic coverters in new construction.

--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.


Some coal gen plants are burning corn as a secondary fuel.
It works out to be cheaper than coal.

John

This would be a bad time to mention that i burn 7-10 cords of firewood
per winter

IF pellets were more affordable here i'd think it was great or if i had
a pellet press i'd visit the local woodshops and shovel their dust
collectors

Hitch wrote:
Joseph Gwinn wrote in news:JoeGwinn-
:

There was an article on page B1 of the 12 December 2005 issue of The
Wall Street Journal, "Demand Pops for Furnaces That Burn Corn". Basic
point is that corn costs less than ordinary fuels (which has to be a
consequence of farm subsidies, one would think). They also tell of
discouraging someone living in an apartment on the 33rd floor of a
Manhattan apartment building from getting a corn furnace, if for no
other reason that cheap corn isn't exactly common outside of the corn
belt.

Joe Gwinn


Is corn still cheap once you remove all of the Federal subsidies? And how
much fossil fuel and fossil fertilizer goes into corn versus other enery-
producing crops, e.g. rapeseed or hemp? I don't know, just asking.

Preface: If any of this sounds defensive, it's because I have just
been down this road on another forum.

From last years numbers (personal),
it took me a whopping 0.14 gallons of diesel per bushel. Add to that
0.04 gallons of LP. Hardly significant. That accounts for ~27000 BTUs
of the potential ~392,000 in a bushel. Leaves 365000 BTU per bushel
net. A gallon of fuel is only 140,000 BTU. That means we have around
the equivalent of 2.5 gallons of diesel fuel left yet.

Anhydrous Ammonia is a direct product of natural gas.
It is manufactured by injecting steam into natural gas and then refined
from there. I finally took the time to look it up. This doesn't
really account for very much. Using the average of 33.5M BTU natural
gas to produce 1 ton of NH3, this is only another 14k BTU per bushel of
corn. From my previous post, that still leaves 351k BTU net gain per
bushel.

The only factor I can't prescribe a "energy cost" to is pesticides.
FWIW, I apply 16oz to an acre so it can't be terribly significant.

As to how this compares to say rapeseed or other crops I don't know.

I don't want to get into the subsidies thing, but I will say this. The
reports that corn is heavily subsidized are largely overblown. Unless
someone can show me hard numbers (and where to collect my check) I
stand by that.

Some coal gen plants are burning corn as a secondary fuel.
It works out to be cheaper than coal.

John

Really?

Where?

Preface: If any of this sounds defensive, it's because I have just
been down this road on another forum.

From last years numbers (personal),
it took me a whopping 0.14 gallons of diesel per bushel. Add to that
0.04 gallons of LP. Hardly significant. That accounts for ~27000 BTUs
of the potential ~392,000 in a bushel. Leaves 365000 BTU per bushel
net. A gallon of fuel is only 140,000 BTU. That means we have around
the equivalent of 2.5 gallons of diesel fuel left yet.

Anhydrous Ammonia is a direct product of natural gas.
It is manufactured by injecting steam into natural gas and then refined
from there. I finally took the time to look it up. This doesn't
really account for very much. Using the average of 33.5M BTU natural
gas to produce 1 ton of NH3, this is only another 14k BTU per bushel of
corn. From my previous post, that still leaves 351k BTU net gain per
bushel.

The only factor I can't prescribe a "energy cost" to is pesticides.
FWIW, I apply 16oz to an acre so it can't be terribly significant.

As to how this compares to say rapeseed or other crops I don't know.

I don't want to get into the subsidies thing, but I will say this. The
reports that corn is heavily subsidized are largely overblown. Unless
someone can show me hard numbers (and where to collect my check) I
stand by that.


I've always thought the numbers used to defeat corn as a fuel were bunk, but
I haven't had the personal experience to prove it. Thanks for your post.

Many times when I see an article claiming a net energy loss, they are using
figures required to make ethanol from corn. Those figures will include the
fuel cost to transport the corn to the elevator, the cost to auger it to a
train, dry the corn, then add water cause it's too dry, ship it off by
train, heat it to produce ethanol, make tires for the trucks and tractors,
asphalt for the roads, and let's not forget the petroleum based soap the
farmer used last week to wash the corn dust from his face.