Actually the separation of church and state is a recent event in
history. In your example you only go as far back as the French
Revolution....people have been dying for stupid causes for much, much
longer than that.

Actually the line between church and state doesn't exist when it comes
to bloodshed...ever notice how a country or a religion each demands
your allegiance to the point of dying for it? Ever wonder why they need
that commitment?

Whether you call it religion or secularism, it is the same end
result...us versus them, the good guys versus the bad guys, ....ever
wonder why the military actively discourages getting to know the enemy
on a personal basis? Could it be that he/she is much more like us than
anyone would like to admit?

As for radical Islam, I see little difference between it and the
radical Christian movement in the United States. Even the tactics are
the same....let's bomb a abortion clinic when we disagree, leaders
quoting scripture that "we" are the chosen ones. And let us not forget
Oklahoma City with our own homegrown terrorists...I myself first
thought it was an external terrorist...a lesson not to jump to
premature conclusions.

When you reach for a gun or a bomb or a knife to prove your point you
have crossed the line in the opinion of the vast majority who just wish
to live their lives in peace.

TMT

Remember when I said that there is no difference between religion and
secularism than the sematics?

McVeigh was marching to his own little drum with all the conviction
that he was doing God's work.

Unfortunately there are many more like him in the world...and some live
in Iraq.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051119/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-

49 Die in Iraq Blasts; Bombs Kill 5 GIs By CHRIS TOMLINSON, Associated
Press Writer

A suicide bomber detonated his car in a crowd of Shiite mourners north
of Baghdad on Saturday, killing at least 36 people and raising the
death toll in two days of attacks against Shiites to more than 120.
Five American soldiers died in roadside bombings.

Earlier Saturday, a car bomb exploded in a crowd of shoppers at an
outdoor market in a mostly Shiite neighborhood on the southeast edge of
Baghdad, killing 13 people and wounding about 20 others, police
reported. Witnesses said they saw a man park the car and walk away
shortly before the blast.

In the north, U.S. and Iraqi forces raided a suspected al-Qaida hideout
in Mosul and at least seven insurgents died - three committing
suicide to prevent capture, Iraqi authorities said. Four Iraqi
policemen also were killed and 11 U.S. troops wounded, Iraqi and U.S.
officials said.

The second suicide car bomb exploded late in the afternoon as mourners
offered condolences to Raad Majid, head of the municipal council in the
village of Abu Saida, over the death of his uncle. Abu Saida is near
Baqouba, a religiously mixed city 35 miles northeast of Baghdad.

Police said about 50 people were injured. On Oct. 29, a bomb hidden in
a truck loaded with dates exploded in another Shiite community in the
same area, killing 30 people.

Ambulances streamed into the main hospital in Baqouba ferrying the
wounded from Saturday's blast; many were rushed directly into operating
rooms where doctors worked frantically to save them.

Hospital facilities were so crowded that dazed and bloodied survivors
- many with serious injuries - lay in agony on gurneys in the
hallways because of the surgery backlog. Doctors and nurses in
blood-spattered white uniforms rushed from gurney to gurney trying to
determine who to treat first.

The five American soldiers - assigned to the 3rd Brigade Combat Team
of the 101st Airborne Division - died in a pair of roadside bombings
near Beiji, 155 miles north of Baghdad, the U.S. command said in a
statement. Five others from the same unit were wounded.

Another soldier from the 101st died in a U.S. hospital in Germany of
injuries suffered two days ago when his vehicle was deliberately rammed
by an Iraqi car near Beiji, the U.S. command said Saturday.

At least 2,090 members of the U.S. military have died since the war
began in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count.

In Mosul, 225 miles northwest of Baghdad, Iraqi officials said police
and U.S. soldiers surrounded a house before dawn Saturday after reports
that al-Qaida in Iraq members were inside, said Brig. Said Ahmed
al-Jubouri, a Mosul police spokesman.

As a fierce gunbattle broke out, three insurgents detonated explosives
and killed themselves to avoid capture. Five more died fighting, while
four police officers also were killed. Al-Jubouri said officials were
attempting to identify the dead insurgents.

In Baghdad, the U.S. command confirmed the fire fight and said four
U.S. soldiers, nine Iraqi army troops and one policeman were killed.
The U.S. statement put the insurgent death toll at seven.

Since Friday, at least 125 Iraqi civilians have been killed in bombings
and suicide attacks. They include 76 people who died in
near-simultaneous suicide bombings at two Shiite mosques in Khanaqin
along the Iranian border. Four people have been arrested, including one
who was believed to have been planning another suicide attack, a
security officer in Khanaqin said.

Attacks against Shiite civilians by Sunni religious extremists have
occurred throughout the Iraq conflict but spiked since last weekend
when U.S. troops found up to 173 detainees in an Interior Ministry
building in Baghdad.

Most of the detainees were believed to be Sunni Arabs, who dominate
insurgent ranks, and some showed signs of torture. Iraq's Shiite-led
government promised an investigation and punishment for anyone guilty
of torture.

Elsewhere, masked gunmen killed five members of Saddam Hussein's Baath
party in a series of attacks Saturday in the Shiite holy city of
Karbala, police said.

Three children were killed and one was wounded when mortar rounds fired
at a U.S. base about 50 miles south of Baghdad fell short of their
target and struck a house, police said.

Shmaryahu b. Chanoch wrote:
On 19 Nov 2005 16:06:56 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Actually the separation of church and state is a recent event in
history. In your example you only go as far back as the French
Revolution....people have been dying for stupid causes for much, much
longer than that.

Actually the line between church and state doesn't exist when it
comes to bloodshed...ever notice how a country or a religion each
demands your allegiance to the point of dying for it? Ever wonder
why they need that commitment?

Whether you call it religion or secularism, it is the same end
result...us versus them, the good guys versus the bad guys, ....ever
wonder why the military actively discourages getting to know the
enemy on a personal basis? Could it be that he/she is much more like
us than anyone would like to admit?

As for radical Islam, I see little difference between it and the
radical Christian movement in the United States. Even the tactics are
the same....let's bomb a abortion clinic when we disagree, leaders
quoting scripture that "we" are the chosen ones. And let us not
forget Oklahoma City with our own homegrown terrorists...I myself
first thought it was an external terrorist...a lesson not to jump to
premature conclusions.

When you reach for a gun or a bomb or a knife to prove your point you
have crossed the line in the opinion of the vast majority who just
wish to live their lives in peace.

TMT

We have had one or two abortion clinic bombings. Most of those who
oppose abortion to that point tend to be Catholics. And there is
nothing in American Christianity that comes close to the willingness
to kill as we are seeing in Salafi movement. Even most
Eco-Terrorists (ELF, ALF, Earth 1st) are far more violent than
anything within Christianity.

As for the OKC event, that was out of the militia movement. Had
Clinton not murdered those women and children at Waco and Ruby Ridge,
I doubt that McVeigh would have gone that far. But then **** off a
soldier and you never know what he will do....




Thousands of terrorist attacks on clinics.....the chart doesn't transfer
well...see the website:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm