I know that one can bend plate in a slip roll or with a press brake.
But how can one put a twist in plate, like taking a strip of plate and
twisting it such that the bottom becomes the top? Is that just a matter
of putting a bend at an odd angle? But how can I get a very different
radius at each end of the bend? With sheet metal, it is pretty easy
with hand tools and jigs.

I confess that I have never even seen a press brake, and have limited
experience with slip rollers.

If you want to know why I want to know, or a picture of the application,
click this link:

http://fergusonsculpture.home.att.net/mobius.html


Richard


--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals

"Richard Ferguson" wrote in message
...
I know that one can bend plate in a slip roll or with a press brake.
But how can one put a twist in plate, like taking a strip of plate and
twisting it such that the bottom becomes the top? Is that just a matter
of putting a bend at an odd angle? But how can I get a very different
radius at each end of the bend? With sheet metal, it is pretty easy
with hand tools and jigs.

I confess that I have never even seen a press brake, and have limited
experience with slip rollers.

If you want to know why I want to know, or a picture of the application,
click this link:

http://fergusonsculpture.home.att.net/mobius.html


Richard

The author mentions "stakes," which is a general name for a wide range of
sheet-metal forming tools. A steel stake that fits into the hardy-hole of an
anvil, or into the jaws of a heavy-duty vise, is made in different forms for
bending and hammering the metal to shape. For example, a shape that's a part
of a cone, triangle-shaped, is used for hand-forming metal cones.

I've made a lot of Mobius strips from paper, and a couple from aluminum
flashing, so I can tell you that the problem is keeping the twist from
kinking. The problem is vastly more difficult if the original strip's
width-to-length ratio is fairly high, as in the sculpture examples in your
link. Notice the author's aluminum example, which has a bit of a kink in it.
A cone stake would let you beat some of that kink out, working gently with a
rawhide or rubber mallet.

The copper and aluminum he used is fairly thin, which is easy to form. If
you haven't made any Mobius strips before, buy a small roll of 6-in.-wide
aluminum flashing at a hardware store and give it a try. As for making an
invisible joint on the ends, that's another problem, but you'll get plenty
of tips here. Do you weld or braze?

By "plate" I assume you mean heavy stuff, 1/4" thick or more. That's going
to be a problem. I don't know of any tools that are made for machine-forming
a Mobius strip. g

--
Ed Huntress

Here is an overly simplistic answer. If you can cut, fold, curl
or modify a piece of paper to look like what you are after, it can
be done in metal. Look at and analyze exactly what it is that you
do to the piece of paper to get what you are after, you will need
to exercise the exact forces to the metal. The difference will be
that it may take more than just your fingers, a scissors, and a
roll of scotch tape to accomplish the task. Metal will actually
do more things than paper, it can be made into bulges and
depressions that are not possible to accomplish with the piece of
paper due to metal's ability to shrink and stretch.

The sculpture piece you reference did not use a break of any type.
It may have used a shear and may have used a roller, but was
probably done with hand snips and hand pressure, solder, and a lot
of sand paper.

(top posted for your convenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Richard Ferguson" wrote
in message
...
I know that one can bend plate in a slip roll or with a press
brake. But how can one put a twist in plate, like taking a strip
of plate and twisting it such that the bottom becomes the top?
Is that just a matter of putting a bend at an odd angle? But how
can I get a very different radius at each end of the bend? With
sheet metal, it is pretty easy with hand tools and jigs.

I confess that I have never even seen a press brake, and have
limited experience with slip rollers.

If you want to know why I want to know, or a picture of the
application, click this link:

http://fergusonsculpture.home.att.net/mobius.html


Richard


--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals

Is that your site you referenced? Or just a coincidence that you have
the same name? If it is your site, why are you asking how to do what
you have already done???

On Mon, 14 Nov 2005 02:37:47 GMT, Richard Ferguson
wrote:

I know that one can bend plate in a slip roll or with a press brake.
But how can one put a twist in plate, like taking a strip of plate and
twisting it such that the bottom becomes the top? Is that just a matter
of putting a bend at an odd angle? But how can I get a very different
radius at each end of the bend? With sheet metal, it is pretty easy
with hand tools and jigs.

I confess that I have never even seen a press brake, and have limited
experience with slip rollers.


I don't think either are what you need for this job. There's several
ways to go about it but a combination of a few of them would probably
work best.

One a large press similar to the one I have (look on my home page
below, misc pics page, second from the bottom). Two is some form of
tie down on the floor of the shop and a hoist, winches, tie points
around the piece, etc. Some means of putting serious pull in different
directions. Some work with a good adjustable pinch roller would help
start the piece but there will be a limit to how much can be done with
that. Another method is heat and cool which will put a bend in the
heaviest plate. It's slow going but that's one of the methods they use
to get those compound curves in heavy plate used on ships.

As for using the press to make a twist. Well you put your supports
at a angle to the piece and place your pressing block between them. I
do this all the time but it's usually the other way around (I'm
straightening a twisted piece). The tying to the floor is done in a
lot of shops in fact they make a floor platen just for jobs like that.
Google Acorn platen or table to get a idea.

Of course it does make a difference on how heavy you're wanting to
go. When I think plate I usually think of something like 1/2", 1" or
the like. Both would be rather difficult to get in that form but
definitely doable with enough time and effort put into it.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

It is doable with a press brake on quarter inch or even heavier. Of course
you would not be able to make the complete strip in one piece. I would
guess the revolution might take four pieces, maybe three depending on
radius, width of strip and clearance on the press brake.
To create the layout you will have to do a series of triangles to get
the development. Look up in a sheet metal layout or good drafting text.
Some developments are parallel line, radial lines and the last method is
triangles
Once cut the forming will be a series of hits not parallel to each
other. The tighter bend area will have hit lines closer to each other
compared to the large radius areas. It is not unlike forming spiral shapes.
Randy


"Richard Ferguson" wrote in message
...
I know that one can bend plate in a slip roll or with a press brake.
But how can one put a twist in plate, like taking a strip of plate and
twisting it such that the bottom becomes the top? Is that just a matter
of putting a bend at an odd angle? But how can I get a very different
radius at each end of the bend? With sheet metal, it is pretty easy
with hand tools and jigs.

I confess that I have never even seen a press brake, and have limited
experience with slip rollers.

If you want to know why I want to know, or a picture of the application,
click this link:

http://fergusonsculpture.home.att.net/mobius.html


Richard


--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals

Yes, it is my own site, I did not realize that was not obvious. My
question, which I guess I did not state as clearly as I wanted, is how
to scale up a design that I have already made into larger Mobius strips
made of heavier material.

Richard


Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Is that your site you referenced? Or just a coincidence that you have
the same name? If it is your site, why are you asking how to do what
you have already done???


--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals

What you suggest is more or less how I envisioned making a Mobius out of
1/4 or 3/8 inch plate. I was thinking of makeing a full size model out
of sheet metal, and then using the model as a template to guide the
press brake work on the plate.

Besides the issue of finding a shop willing to try something strange on
a time and materials basis, there are all the learning curve issues. I
might be well advised to build a medium size Mobius out of 1/8 inch
sheet before stepping up to something heavier. Getting it all to fit
together right would also be a challenge. Probably would need a
porta-power or other way to exert major forces to get things aligned
right for welding. And how do I get the joints to have a consistent
curve if I can't use a hammer to make adjustments?

Looks like a challenge. It is something that I have been thinking about
for a while.

Richard


R. Zimmerman wrote:

It is doable with a press brake on quarter inch or even heavier. Of course
you would not be able to make the complete strip in one piece. I would
guess the revolution might take four pieces, maybe three depending on
radius, width of strip and clearance on the press brake.
To create the layout you will have to do a series of triangles to get
the development. Look up in a sheet metal layout or good drafting text.
Some developments are parallel line, radial lines and the last method is
triangles
Once cut the forming will be a series of hits not parallel to each
other. The tighter bend area will have hit lines closer to each other
compared to the large radius areas. It is not unlike forming spiral shapes.
Randy


"Richard Ferguson" wrote in message
...
I know that one can bend plate in a slip roll or with a press brake.
But how can one put a twist in plate, like taking a strip of plate and
twisting it such that the bottom becomes the top? Is that just a matter
of putting a bend at an odd angle? But how can I get a very different
radius at each end of the bend? With sheet metal, it is pretty easy
with hand tools and jigs.

I confess that I have never even seen a press brake, and have limited
experience with slip rollers.

If you want to know why I want to know, or a picture of the application,
click this link:

http://fergusonsculpture.home.att.net/mobius.html


Richard


--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals




--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals

If you are making a full size model it can be made of cardboard if you
like..
If the operator has sweeps for each radiused section it is easier. A
sweep is simply a crescent shaped template about a foot long that can be put
up against the plate as the operator is bending it. A sweep for each edge
of the curve would be needed,
If the forming is perfect then you will not need a porta-power.
Actually for 1/4 and 3/8 plate a couple of chain com-a-longs, dogs and lots
of steel wedges will do the trick.
The welding to connect sections will have to be done carefully or else
the weld seam will increase or decrease the curvature giving a kink in your
nice curve.
Making a quarter size or smaller scale unit out of 1/8th plate might be
economical.
Randy

"Richard Ferguson" wrote in message
...
What you suggest is more or less how I envisioned making a Mobius out of
1/4 or 3/8 inch plate. I was thinking of makeing a full size model out
of sheet metal, and then using the model as a template to guide the
press brake work on the plate.

Besides the issue of finding a shop willing to try something strange on
a time and materials basis, there are all the learning curve issues. I
might be well advised to build a medium size Mobius out of 1/8 inch
sheet before stepping up to something heavier. Getting it all to fit
together right would also be a challenge. Probably would need a
porta-power or other way to exert major forces to get things aligned
right for welding. And how do I get the joints to have a consistent
curve if I can't use a hammer to make adjustments?

Looks like a challenge. It is something that I have been thinking about
for a while.

Richard


R. Zimmerman wrote:

It is doable with a press brake on quarter inch or even heavier. Of
course
you would not be able to make the complete strip in one piece. I would
guess the revolution might take four pieces, maybe three depending on
radius, width of strip and clearance on the press brake.
To create the layout you will have to do a series of triangles to get
the development. Look up in a sheet metal layout or good drafting text.
Some developments are parallel line, radial lines and the last method is
triangles
Once cut the forming will be a series of hits not parallel to each
other. The tighter bend area will have hit lines closer to each other
compared to the large radius areas. It is not unlike forming spiral
shapes.
Randy


"Richard Ferguson" wrote in
message
...
I know that one can bend plate in a slip roll or with a press brake.
But how can one put a twist in plate, like taking a strip of plate and
twisting it such that the bottom becomes the top? Is that just a matter
of putting a bend at an odd angle? But how can I get a very different
radius at each end of the bend? With sheet metal, it is pretty easy
with hand tools and jigs.

I confess that I have never even seen a press brake, and have limited
experience with slip rollers.

If you want to know why I want to know, or a picture of the application,
click this link:

http://fergusonsculpture.home.att.net/mobius.html


Richard


--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals




--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals