On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:46:27 GMT, Ignoramus27736
wrote:

Made a 1/4" spark gap... I see sparks... Very exciting...

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/High.../Franceformer/

i
That's a neon xfmr. Three of those in series should make a dandy
Jacob's ladder! The buzzzzzzzZZZAP noise it makes adds to the fun.
With 3 or 4 of them in series, a Jacobs ladder should be able to
sustain an arc over an inch long before it goes out at the top and
starts again (ZAP) at the bottom.

The nameplate ratings can be confusing. They deliver rated voltage
under open circuit conditions, rated current at short or near-short
conditions. Once a spark/arc is initiated, voltage drops to about 1KV
in a short gap. 1KV is a near short condition for a 30KV xfmr.

A job I once had was designing electronic oil ignition xfmrs, 30KV at
30 mA. They ran at about 30KHz. In normal use the rectified AC
wasn't filtered -- but if a filter cap was added, the arc/spark was
eery quiet -- just sort of a soft hiss. A Jacob's ladder with that
was like the audio was missing.

no no no no no no NO!!!! please don't put them in series. if you do that,
you will very likely destroy one or two of them due to breakdown between the
primary and secondary - look at it this way, all the primarys are in
parallel (you plugged them in, right?), with the secondaries in series,
there is around 27KV between the secondary of one transformer and the
primary of the one farthest away (electrically). The primary to secondary
insulation is designed for a 4.5KV standoff, with some safety factor, you
are at 27 - not good, breakdown very probable. AND, if you are unlucky, you
will find that the secondaries are center tapped with the center tap
connected to the case.

Why risk good transformers. with 9KV and a jacob's ladder you start at
about 1/4 inch at the bottom, you should be able to get an easy inch or
three at the top - the plasma conducts much better than air.

Find one of the tesla coiling groups before you destroy these things,
please.

bill n


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:46:27 GMT, Ignoramus27736
wrote:

Made a 1/4" spark gap... I see sparks... Very exciting...

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/High.../Franceformer/

i
That's a neon xfmr. Three of those in series should make a dandy
Jacob's ladder! The buzzzzzzzZZZAP noise it makes adds to the fun.
With 3 or 4 of them in series, a Jacobs ladder should be able to
sustain an arc over an inch long before it goes out at the top and
starts again (ZAP) at the bottom.

The nameplate ratings can be confusing. They deliver rated voltage
under open circuit conditions, rated current at short or near-short
conditions. Once a spark/arc is initiated, voltage drops to about 1KV
in a short gap. 1KV is a near short condition for a 30KV xfmr.

A job I once had was designing electronic oil ignition xfmrs, 30KV at
30 mA. They ran at about 30KHz. In normal use the rectified AC
wasn't filtered -- but if a filter cap was added, the arc/spark was
eery quiet -- just sort of a soft hiss. A Jacob's ladder with that
was like the audio was missing.

go here and learn a little about tesla coils - I'm trying hard to point you
to a venue where you can make some $$ off those things - but I won't post
more on the subject now - it's up to you - fragment of mail from listserv
below:

I'll lay 2 more photos on Terry:

http://www.hot-streamer.com/temp/KCH_TCH8.jpg

http://www.hot-streamer.com/temp/KCH_TCH9.jpg




"

"Ignoramus27736" wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:
, Ignoramus27736 wrote:

Made a 1/4" spark gap... I see sparks... Very exciting...

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/High.../Franceformer/

i
That's a neon xfmr. Three of those in series should make a dandy
Jacob's ladder!

Sounds interesting. I have 13 of them today. Maybe I will get more
tomorrow. I forgot to pay for all the stuff I got today (and the owner
forgot to ask me for money) and need to go there tomorrow to pay
anyway.

Sorry, I digress.

I am confused by different statements made by different posters. Some
say that they cannot be set in sequence because they are center tapped
to ground. I am not so sure, since they can be mounted in
isolation. Who to believe?

Yes, they can theoretically be connected in series if you float the cores,
but then you run into the problem that the cases are connected to the cores,
the on/off switch is screwed into the case, the primary cable runs through
the case, or (as William Noble pointed out), the primary/core insulation
isn't rated for 4.5kV.

In other words, it's not practical given the structure and the voltages
involved. Put one volt into the primary and it would work, but without
significant reworking of the transformer itself (depotting/immersing in
oil/reworking leads/insulating the primary), it isn't practical at 120VAC.

Jon

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:25:59 -0700, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

"Ignoramus27736" wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:
, Ignoramus27736 wrote:

Made a 1/4" spark gap... I see sparks... Very exciting...

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/High.../Franceformer/

i
That's a neon xfmr. Three of those in series should make a dandy
Jacob's ladder!

Sounds interesting. I have 13 of them today. Maybe I will get more
tomorrow. I forgot to pay for all the stuff I got today (and the owner
forgot to ask me for money) and need to go there tomorrow to pay
anyway.

Sorry, I digress.

I am confused by different statements made by different posters. Some
say that they cannot be set in sequence because they are center tapped
to ground. I am not so sure, since they can be mounted in
isolation. Who to believe?

Yes, they can theoretically be connected in series if you float the cores,
but then you run into the problem that the cases are connected to the cores,
the on/off switch is screwed into the case, the primary cable runs through
the case, or (as William Noble pointed out), the primary/core insulation
isn't rated for 4.5kV.

In other words, it's not practical given the structure and the voltages
involved. Put one volt into the primary and it would work, but without
significant reworking of the transformer itself (depotting/immersing in
oil/reworking leads/insulating the primary), it isn't practical at 120VAC.

Jon

All true -- but if you have 13 of them and they were cheap, how could
you resist trying it with a couple? HV stuff is designed with
pretty generous margins because insulation, etc degrades over time in
the presence of HV.

Don Foreman wrote:

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:46:27 GMT, Ignoramus27736
wrote:



Made a 1/4" spark gap... I see sparks... Very exciting...

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/High.../Franceformer/

i


That's a neon xfmr. Three of those in series should make a dandy
Jacob's ladder! The buzzzzzzzZZZAP noise it makes adds to the fun.
With 3 or 4 of them in series, a Jacobs ladder should be able to
sustain an arc over an inch long before it goes out at the top and
starts again (ZAP) at the bottom.

The nameplate ratings can be confusing. They deliver rated voltage
under open circuit conditions, rated current at short or near-short
conditions. Once a spark/arc is initiated, voltage drops to about 1KV
in a short gap. 1KV is a near short condition for a 30KV xfmr.

A job I once had was designing electronic oil ignition xfmrs, 30KV at
30 mA. They ran at about 30KHz. In normal use the rectified AC
wasn't filtered -- but if a filter cap was added, the arc/spark was
eery quiet -- just sort of a soft hiss. A Jacob's ladder with that
was like the audio was missing.




Back in the stone age when I was doing science demos at a local science
museum, we aquired a Tesla coil that used some monster old radio tubes
rather than the spark gap system to generate the high frequency. As you
said above, it was nearly silent while making foot long sparks. The
sparks were more brush like (softer looking) than the standard spark gap
unit we had.

The really cool thing about this unit was...no leaked low frequency in
the sparks. You could stick your hand right in and not have the usual
shock you often get from Tesla's. It did leave tiny pin prick RF burns
on the surface of your skin (not deep enough to "feel").

As a demonstration piece, however, people in the audience really missed
the snapping and crackling.

Koz (who once took a solid direct hit of a 3-1/2 foot tesla spark while
well grounded and screamed "aww...FU**!" to an audience of kids as he
jerked a couple of feet. )

Ignoramus27736 wrote:

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:20:50 -0500, Don Foreman wrote:


On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:46:27 GMT, Ignoramus27736
wrote:



Made a 1/4" spark gap... I see sparks... Very exciting...

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/High.../Franceformer/

i


That's a neon xfmr. Three of those in series should make a dandy
Jacob's ladder!



Sounds interesting. I have 13 of them today. Maybe I will get more
tomorrow. I forgot to pay for all the stuff I got today (and the owner
forgot to ask me for money) and need to go there tomorrow to pay
anyway.

Sorry, I digress.

I am confused by different statements made by different posters. Some
say that they cannot be set in sequence because they are center tapped
to ground. I am not so sure, since they can be mounted in
isolation. Who to believe?



The buzzzzzzzZZZAP noise it makes adds to the fun.



Yes. I just tried something interesting. I tried blowing at it. It
made some big arcs and a corona discharge. Tomorrow, I may try to blow
argon at it from my tig welder.


Try quickly pulling a piece of typing paper through the arc. Do it fast
enough that the paper doesn't light and you will see perforated holes
showing that the arc is not continuous as it appears....after all, it is AC.

Koz (who did this as part of the science demos also....Kids have no clue
that AC from your wall socket is not the same as DC from a battery)




With 3 or 4 of them in series, a Jacobs ladder should be able to
sustain an arc over an inch long before it goes out at the top and
starts again (ZAP) at the bottom.



Very nice.



The nameplate ratings can be confusing. They deliver rated voltage
under open circuit conditions, rated current at short or near-short
conditions. Once a spark/arc is initiated, voltage drops to about 1KV
in a short gap. 1KV is a near short condition for a 30KV xfmr.



Well, sure, that's what constant current stands for, more or less.



A job I once had was designing electronic oil ignition xfmrs, 30KV at
30 mA. They ran at about 30KHz. In normal use the rectified AC
wasn't filtered -- but if a filter cap was added, the arc/spark was
eery quiet -- just sort of a soft hiss. A Jacob's ladder with that
was like the audio was missing.



The nameplate does not actually say what the output current is, AC,
DC, HF, etc. I think that midpoint grounding pretty much implies
AC. Not sure if it is 60 Hz or HF. My guess is that it is 60 Hz, both
from the buzzing sound as well as the weight of this franceformer.

i

Koz (who once took a solid direct hit of a 3-1/2 foot tesla spark while
well grounded and screamed "aww...FU**!" to an audience of kids as he
jerked a couple of feet. )

I suspect they heard that word before.....
Look at the bright side. At least you didn't expose them to
something that would mar them for life. Like seeing you
electrocuted (or pee your pants).

On 20 Oct 2005 20:56:32 GMT, Chuck Sherwood wrote:
Koz (who once took a solid direct hit of a 3-1/2 foot tesla spark while
well grounded and screamed "aww...FU**!" to an audience of kids as he
jerked a couple of feet. )

I suspect they heard that word before.....

And I bet none of them burst into flames upon hearing it,either.

Look at the bright side. At least you didn't expose them to
something that would mar them for life. Like seeing you
electrocuted (or pee your pants).

Or a half-second glimpse of a nipple during the superbowl half-time show
or something. Now that, would be life-changing. Or something like
that.

Seriously, a 3.5' spark...have you calculated the voltage for that?
That could have been a game-over type event, no?

Dave Hinz wrote:

On 20 Oct 2005 20:56:32 GMT, Chuck Sherwood wrote:


Koz (who once took a solid direct hit of a 3-1/2 foot tesla spark while
well grounded and screamed "aww...FU**!" to an audience of kids as he
jerked a couple of feet. )





I suspect they heard that word before.....



And I bet none of them burst into flames upon hearing it,either.

No but they laughed their little heads off at the word and seeing the
funny man fly




Look at the bright side. At least you didn't expose them to
something that would mar them for life. Like seeing you
electrocuted (or pee your pants).



Or a half-second glimpse of a nipple during the superbowl half-time show
or something. Now that, would be life-changing. Or something like
that.

Seriously, a 3.5' spark...have you calculated the voltage for that?
That could have been a game-over type event, no?



We usually guessed at the old standard of 10000 v per inch. However,
I've since heard that even though this used to be common, it barely even
qualifies as a wild-ass guess. Every muscle in my body hurt like hell
for about 5 days after due to the sudden contraction. The spark
actually curled down the outside of a flourescent tube, into my right
thumb, and out through the controller switch I had in my left hand:
Yea, straight across the important little chest muscle


Koz

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:21:37 -0700, Koz
wrote:



Dave Hinz wrote:

On 20 Oct 2005 20:56:32 GMT, Chuck Sherwood wrote:


Koz (who once took a solid direct hit of a 3-1/2 foot tesla spark while
well grounded and screamed "aww...FU**!" to an audience of kids as he
jerked a couple of feet. )





I suspect they heard that word before.....



And I bet none of them burst into flames upon hearing it,either.

No but they laughed their little heads off at the word and seeing the
funny man fly

My youngest brother is ten years younger than me. I have two other
brothers one two years older and the other two years younger. When my
youngest brother was still of stroller age my mom was pushing him
through the store. An old lady comes up and comments on how cute my
brother is or something. He says: "FU** YOU!". My mom came home and
was madder than hell. I have never heard her cuss, so when she said:
"HE DIDN'T LEARN IT FROM ME!" she was telling the truth. My other
brothers and I were in lots of trouble but we all had a terrible time
not laughing while being yelled at. We still laugh about it over 30
years later.
ERS


Look at the bright side. At least you didn't expose them to
something that would mar them for life. Like seeing you
electrocuted (or pee your pants).



Or a half-second glimpse of a nipple during the superbowl half-time show
or something. Now that, would be life-changing. Or something like
that.

Seriously, a 3.5' spark...have you calculated the voltage for that?
That could have been a game-over type event, no?



We usually guessed at the old standard of 10000 v per inch. However,
I've since heard that even though this used to be common, it barely even
qualifies as a wild-ass guess. Every muscle in my body hurt like hell
for about 5 days after due to the sudden contraction. The spark
actually curled down the outside of a flourescent tube, into my right
thumb, and out through the controller switch I had in my left hand:
Yea, straight across the important little chest muscle


Koz

"Koz" wrote:
We usually guessed at the old standard of 10000 v per inch. However,
I've since heard that even though this used to be common, it barely even
qualifies as a wild-ass guess.

Yep. The reason being that multiple streamers are occuring in succession
and following the previous spark at hundreds of times per second. One
streamer ionizes the air making it easier for the next streamer to follow,
until you have the big long streamer (all of this in a fraction of a
second). This can be demonstrated by running a TC in single shot mode and
noticing the significantly decreased length in output.

Jon

Only need one - use a trippler power supply -

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Don Foreman wrote:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 03:46:27 GMT, Ignoramus27736
wrote:


Made a 1/4" spark gap... I see sparks... Very exciting...

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/High.../Franceformer/

i

That's a neon xfmr. Three of those in series should make a dandy
Jacob's ladder! The buzzzzzzzZZZAP noise it makes adds to the fun.
With 3 or 4 of them in series, a Jacobs ladder should be able to
sustain an arc over an inch long before it goes out at the top and
starts again (ZAP) at the bottom.

The nameplate ratings can be confusing. They deliver rated voltage
under open circuit conditions, rated current at short or near-short
conditions. Once a spark/arc is initiated, voltage drops to about 1KV
in a short gap. 1KV is a near short condition for a 30KV xfmr.

A job I once had was designing electronic oil ignition xfmrs, 30KV at
30 mA. They ran at about 30KHz. In normal use the rectified AC
wasn't filtered -- but if a filter cap was added, the arc/spark was
eery quiet -- just sort of a soft hiss. A Jacob's ladder with that
was like the audio was missing.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----