After being in storage for about 10 years I have relocated an old
Herbert 4 Senior Lathe to a new workshop. I was working previously via
a 3 phase converter but it did work OK. It was sprayed with oil prior
to storage and it all looks in quite good knick.

When I powered it all up I could not get the pre-optive motor to
operate for a while. I found 3 small 5 amp fuses, some of which had
blown, - not violently, just not connected and a few other problems.
The pre-op motor would turn, using a small socket and extension but
only about 20 turns from one jammed position to the other. Also the
main speed knob was jammed. I also turned the main motor which was free
and which turned the chuck - so it was all free and in gear, highest
speed was selected. I finally got the pre-op. motor driving and going
the right way but it still jammed after about 20 revs from the fully
anti clockwise jammed position. After messing about for about an hour,
running from fully anti-clock to fully clock, it suddenly overcame the
jam and the speed knob freed up.

Aha! I thought, now it will be OK. But no, even with the pre-op. motor
running and the speed selector apparently free, the main motor would
not come on. Previously there was a big click of the power relay(s)
when you pushed the forward, reverse or inch buttons. Then the pre-op.
trip tripped again (as it always used to if left running for a while
due to the converter not giving true 3 phase), when I reset it the
jamming was there again.

Does anyone know enough about this old Lathe to suggest what may be
wrong and does anyone have either a circuit diagram or handbook (or
both) that I could beg borrow or buy. I am sure there is not much
wrong with it and I really don't like to attempt the dismantling of it
to get into the pre-optive gearbox assembly.

Any comments or suggestions would be welcome. It is a fine machine and
I am sure I can put it to good use again.

Thanks a lot, George Bell.

According to George :
After being in storage for about 10 years I have relocated an old
Herbert 4 Senior Lathe to a new workshop. I was working previously via
a 3 phase converter but it did work OK. It was sprayed with oil prior
to storage and it all looks in quite good knick.

When I powered it all up I could not get the pre-optive motor to
operate for a while. I found 3 small 5 amp fuses, some of which had
blown, - not violently, just not connected and a few other problems.

[ ... ]

Aha! I thought, now it will be OK. But no, even with the pre-op. motor
running and the speed selector apparently free, the main motor would
not come on. Previously there was a big click of the power relay(s)
when you pushed the forward, reverse or inch buttons. Then the pre-op.
trip tripped again (as it always used to if left running for a while
due to the converter not giving true 3 phase), when I reset it the
jamming was there again.

Hmm ... you are operating it from a "static phase converter"
such as those made by Phase-o-Matic? If the pre-op motor is a single
phase motor, it (and the various control relays) will be sensitive to
which two of the three phases they receive power from. They must be
powered from the two wires which go through to the 220V single phase
line, as those are the only two which are sure to have power.

I'm presuming that you had the converter stored separately, and
had to re-connect the lathe to the converter. What I would suggest is
that you disconnect the three phases from the converter (or from the
plug, if you have set it to plug into the converter, but that would
probably not have changed the wiring), connect each wire to the terminal
to which the next one was connected, and try again. If that doesn't
fix it, try the same change again once more.

Yes -- there is a more analytic way to do this, but since you
say that you don't have the manual for the machine, this should be
easier.

Hmm ... another consideration -- the start capacitor in the
phase converter may have died while it was in storage.

If you're using a rotary converter, or a VFD, then things should
be simpler.

Does anyone know enough about this old Lathe to suggest what may be
wrong and does anyone have either a circuit diagram or handbook (or
both) that I could beg borrow or buy.

I must admit to never having even *heard* of this brand of
lathe, and I'm not quite sure what a "pre-optive" motor does. My guess
is that it may adjust the variable speed pulleys.

I am sure there is not much
wrong with it and I really don't like to attempt the dismantling of it
to get into the pre-optive gearbox assembly.

I'm willing to bet that there is nothing wrong with the lathe
(other than a few blown fuses), and that the problem is either with your
phase converter, or with its connection to the lathe.

Any comments or suggestions would be welcome. It is a fine machine and
I am sure I can put it to good use again.

You have my suggestions above.

Good Luck,
DoN.

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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:
According to George :
After being in storage for about 10 years I have relocated an old
Herbert 4 Senior Lathe to a new workshop. I was working previously via
a 3 phase converter but it did work OK. It was sprayed with oil prior
to storage and it all looks in quite good knick.

When I powered it all up I could not get the pre-optive motor to
operate for a while. I found 3 small 5 amp fuses, some of which had
blown, - not violently, just not connected and a few other problems.

[ ... ]

Aha! I thought, now it will be OK. But no, even with the pre-op. motor
running and the speed selector apparently free, the main motor would
not come on. Previously there was a big click of the power relay(s)
when you pushed the forward, reverse or inch buttons. Then the pre-op.
trip tripped again (as it always used to if left running for a while
due to the converter not giving true 3 phase), when I reset it the
jamming was there again.

Hmm ... you are operating it from a "static phase converter"
such as those made by Phase-o-Matic? If the pre-op motor is a single
phase motor, it (and the various control relays) will be sensitive to
which two of the three phases they receive power from. They must be
powered from the two wires which go through to the 220V single phase
line, as those are the only two which are sure to have power.

I'm presuming that you had the converter stored separately, and
had to re-connect the lathe to the converter. What I would suggest is
that you disconnect the three phases from the converter (or from the
plug, if you have set it to plug into the converter, but that would
probably not have changed the wiring), connect each wire to the terminal
to which the next one was connected, and try again. If that doesn't
fix it, try the same change again once more.

Yes -- there is a more analytic way to do this, but since you
say that you don't have the manual for the machine, this should be
easier.

Hmm ... another consideration -- the start capacitor in the
phase converter may have died while it was in storage.

If you're using a rotary converter, or a VFD, then things should
be simpler.

Does anyone know enough about this old Lathe to suggest what may be
wrong and does anyone have either a circuit diagram or handbook (or
both) that I could beg borrow or buy.

I must admit to never having even *heard* of this brand of
lathe, and I'm not quite sure what a "pre-optive" motor does. My guess
is that it may adjust the variable speed pulleys.

I am sure there is not much
wrong with it and I really don't like to attempt the dismantling of it
to get into the pre-optive gearbox assembly.

I'm willing to bet that there is nothing wrong with the lathe
(other than a few blown fuses), and that the problem is either with your
phase converter, or with its connection to the lathe.

Any comments or suggestions would be welcome. It is a fine machine and
I am sure I can put it to good use again.

You have my suggestions above.

Good Luck,
DoN.

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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---


In spite of not knowing my lathe you may have hit it on the head. I
did change the wiring from the 3 phase converter. I used it for a
pillar drill and the phase rotation was wrong so after checking that it
was correct rotation for the lathe I did not check which one was the
"dead phase, It only come up to voltage when the motor load comes on
and although the pre-optive motor is 3 phase it is very small and not
enough load on the converter, I feel.

The preoptive motor allows on-the-move speed changes to be selected
prior to requiring the change - at which time you just press a button
and it changes , rather like using an epicyclic gearbox on a car.
Herbert is very well known in UK and there are a lot still about. Mine
is far too big and complicated for what I do with it, but it is better
to have a lot of facilities and not use them than not having enough and
always getting stuck.

Thanks very much. I shall try your advice tomorrow, or Friday as I
shall be busy tommorrow morning. Regards George.

According to George :

DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

Hmm ... you are operating it from a "static phase converter"
such as those made by Phase-o-Matic? If the pre-op motor is a single
phase motor, it (and the various control relays) will be sensitive to
which two of the three phases they receive power from. They must be
powered from the two wires which go through to the 220V single phase
line, as those are the only two which are sure to have power.

I'm presuming that you had the converter stored separately, and
had to re-connect the lathe to the converter. What I would suggest is
that you disconnect the three phases from the converter (or from the
plug, if you have set it to plug into the converter, but that would
probably not have changed the wiring), connect each wire to the terminal
to which the next one was connected, and try again. If that doesn't
fix it, try the same change again once more.

[ ... ]

Does anyone know enough about this old Lathe to suggest what may be
wrong and does anyone have either a circuit diagram or handbook (or
both) that I could beg borrow or buy.

I must admit to never having even *heard* of this brand of
lathe, and I'm not quite sure what a "pre-optive" motor does. My guess
is that it may adjust the variable speed pulleys.

[ ... ]

In spite of not knowing my lathe you may have hit it on the head.

I don't know your lathe -- but I know things which can be in
common between quite a few lathes, and this appeared to be something
which could appply here.

I
did change the wiring from the 3 phase converter. I used it for a
pillar drill and the phase rotation was wrong so after checking that it
was correct rotation for the lathe I did not check which one was the
"dead phase, It only come up to voltage when the motor load comes on
and although the pre-optive motor is 3 phase it is very small and not
enough load on the converter, I feel.

You might want to make a rotary converter, then. That would
have no problem running a smaller three-phase motor. Since your lathe
already has an excellent way to change speeds (from the part below),
there is little reason to use a VFD for this -- and the extra controls
in this lathe might well make a VFD more difficult to apply.

If you can scrounge up a larger three-phase motor to use as an
idler -- one at least 50% higher horsepower than the lathe's own motor,
you should have no problems using the preoptive motor as well. You can
even use the existing phase converter as a starter for the rotary phase
convertor's idler.

And -- the spindle motor can act as a rotary converter to run
the smaller one. If the speed control on the spindle is the typical
variable-speed pulley, those are not supposed to be adjusted except when
the main motor is running, so this should not be a problem, once you can
get the spindle motor spinning.

The preoptive motor allows on-the-move speed changes to be selected
prior to requiring the change - at which time you just press a button
and it changes , rather like using an epicyclic gearbox on a car.
Herbert is very well known in UK and there are a lot still about. Mine
is far too big and complicated for what I do with it, but it is better
to have a lot of facilities and not use them than not having enough and
always getting stuck.

That sounds like a particularly nice lathe -- and well worth
putting it back into service.

Thanks very much. I shall try your advice tomorrow, or Friday as I
shall be busy tommorrow morning. Regards George.

O.K. Best of luck,
DoN.

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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Hi Don,

It's running again. I could not wait till tomorrow. There were a
number of things wrong, the main one being the "dead" phase being on
the wrong wire. I changed it once and the light over the chuck would
not come on and when I changed it again, although the pre-op motor was
still jamming, I tried the "inch" button, while the pre-op was running
and even though it did not start the main motor - there was a hefty
click as it tried. Next I went back to the chuck speed selector knob
and button and, working on the theory that, as it had freed up once, it
was a simple jam caused by non use and / or damp, I tapped the external
controls lightly with a small hammer for a while. The next time I
tried it, the jam was overcome and although the main motor was trying,
it was not able to start up due to insufficient current from the
converter. The converter has various switch positions which you are
suppose to adjust for lowest current when the 3 phase device is
running. I tried a few other positions and got a quicker trip out of
the pre-op motor but a more healthy attempt by the main motor (3 / 7.5
Hp.) to start. I tried this a few times and finally I got the main
motor turning before the pre-op tripped and everything got dramatically
better after this. With a proper load on it the converter gives quite a
good 3 phase supply.

It must have all been very stiff and when it started the oil gradually
got back in the works. I left it running and went up and down the
gearbox several times and everything was fine. There do seem to be
several oil filling caps around the machine, but I am reluctant to pour
anything in until someone can tell me what sort of oil I should be
using. When it had been running for a minute or so it sounded very
smooth and no vibration, so there is not much wrong with it. I got on
with some painting and left it running light for about an hour. It got
nicely warm and I am sure that I will not have any problems in that
area.

Thanks to you, I am back in business.

Best regards George.

According to George :
Hi Don,

It's running again.

Great!

I could not wait till tomorrow. There were a
number of things wrong, the main one being the "dead" phase being on
the wrong wire. I changed it once and the light over the chuck would
not come on and when I changed it again, although the pre-op motor was
still jamming, I tried the "inch" button, while the pre-op was running
and even though it did not start the main motor - there was a hefty
click as it tried. Next I went back to the chuck speed selector knob
and button and, working on the theory that, as it had freed up once, it
was a simple jam caused by non use and / or damp, I tapped the external
controls lightly with a small hammer for a while. The next time I
tried it, the jam was overcome and although the main motor was trying,
it was not able to start up due to insufficient current from the
converter. The converter has various switch positions which you are
suppose to adjust for lowest current when the 3 phase device is
running.

O.K. That is a bit better than some versions, as it offers a
way to tune out the "imaginary" current.

I tried a few other positions and got a quicker trip out of
the pre-op motor but a more healthy attempt by the main motor (3 / 7.5
Hp.) to start. I tried this a few times and finally I got the main
motor turning before the pre-op tripped and everything got dramatically
better after this. With a proper load on it the converter gives quite a
good 3 phase supply.

Actually -- what is probably giving you a three-phase supply is
your spindle motor,acting as an idler once it is started. "static"
converters, such as yours appears to be, simply observe the third phase,
and as long as it is below a certain value, keep a starter capacitor
switched into the circuit. This will work properly only on a fairly
narrow range of motor horsepowers. If your pre-op motor was starting,
this makes me suspect that it is a single-phase motor, not really a
three-phase one.

As long as the spindle motor is running, it generates the third
phase for anything else which might need it. However, if you want three
phase good enough so the whole system works normally, what I would
suggest is that you get an old three phase motor, perhaps around 10 HP,
and use the static converter to start it. When it is running, it will
be generating the third phase for you, and your lathe should be fully
happy -- even if the pre-op motor *is* three phase. Just mount it
somewhere out of the way, use the static converter to start it, and you
now have a rotary converter in your shop -- ready to feed three phase to
any tool of the 7.5 HP or lower range. (This presumes that you have
enough current to start the 10HP motor in the first place.) You
probably should make some kind of housing around the shaft so nothing
gets fouled in it while it is turning.

It must have all been very stiff and when it started the oil gradually
got back in the works. I left it running and went up and down the
gearbox several times and everything was fine. There do seem to be
several oil filling caps around the machine, but I am reluctant to pour
anything in until someone can tell me what sort of oil I should be
using. When it had been running for a minute or so it sounded very
smooth and no vibration, so there is not much wrong with it. I got on
with some painting and left it running light for about an hour. It got
nicely warm and I am sure that I will not have any problems in that
area.

Thanks to you, I am back in business.

Great!

Best of luck,
DoN.

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