Hi, I'm a fantasy and science fiction writer, and was recommended to
this group for a technical question.

Well, maybe 'technical' is stretching things.

I've written a bit where snaps and shackles were made of a steel. They
tested well in normal temperatures, but shattered under load at about
-40. I used manganese as a placeholder, but would like to use a correct
alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to
"try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese
placeholder.

Can anybody help me? Have I provided enough information?

Bill

There are dozens of other metals you could add to the alloy for various
effects and an infinite range of strength characteristics. Cobalt,
Beryllium, Titanium & Vanadium come to mind off the top of my head.
There's also the ultimate alloy ingredients, Kryptonite and
Unobtainium. G
Enjoy, Bugs

Actually, it's the plain carbon steel that is brittle at low temps,
adding some molybdenum does wonders for low temp strength.

You might want to read up on the 'Charpy' test for impact resisitance.
You put a large notch in the sample piece, use a pendulum to swing a
heavy weight into the sample. At -40 (F or C) carbon steel just snaps.

Bill Swears wrote:
Hi, I'm a fantasy and science fiction writer, and was recommended to
this group for a technical question.

Well, maybe 'technical' is stretching things.

I've written a bit where snaps and shackles were made of a steel. They
tested well in normal temperatures, but shattered under load at about
-40. I used manganese as a placeholder, but would like to use a correct
alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to
"try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese
placeholder.

Can anybody help me? Have I provided enough information?

Bill

In article SGu1f.8119$oc.7024
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net,
says...
Actually, it's the plain carbon steel that is brittle at low temps,
adding some molybdenum does wonders for low temp strength.

You might want to read up on the 'Charpy' test for impact resisitance.
You put a large notch in the sample piece, use a pendulum to swing a
heavy weight into the sample. At -40 (F or C) carbon steel just snaps.


Also search on "brittle to ductile transition temperature"

Ned Simmons

From a manufacturing side that seem pretty unlikely to happen unless
there is criminal substitution or a great deal of incompetence on the
part of the buyer.

wrote:
From a manufacturing side that seem pretty unlikely to happen unless
there is criminal substitution or a great deal of incompetence on the
part of the buyer.

Incompetence. But the buyer in this case was the maker of the alloy,
and it isn't a modern story. The story is set in a in a milieu where
people would be working out the basic alloying characteristics, and the
snaps and shackles were on a test platform.

Bill

--
Bill Swears

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Ben Franklin, 1755 "Historical Review of Pennsylvania"

To think that was once a right wing comment. In the land of Homeland
Security it seems.. Suspiciously left-wing.

Ned Simmons wrote:

In article SGu1f.8119$oc.7024
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net,
says...

Actually, it's the plain carbon steel that is brittle at low temps,
adding some molybdenum does wonders for low temp strength.

You might want to read up on the 'Charpy' test for impact resisitance.
You put a large notch in the sample piece, use a pendulum to swing a
heavy weight into the sample. At -40 (F or C) carbon steel just snaps.



Also search on "brittle to ductile transition temperature"

Ned Simmons
Thanks for the lead. I've been to several of those articles. It's a
land in which I need a native guide. As random luck would have it, I
had already seen some of them while I was flailing around the internet
trying to do this research on my own. What a tyro like me needs is a
simple article with a chart that shows test results. Something that
would, say, show Charpy test results for test pieces with a percentage
of a single alloying material changed.

Or, alternatively, answer this: if Molybdenum is the right metal to
lower the temperature point of material failure, should I just assume
that adding, say 1% more to the next batch will lower it's brittle
temperature without adversely affecting the overall strength. Where
overall strength is measured by shackles that can hold up a beer tent's
lines in hurricane force winds.

I know I don't know the terminology well enough to ask this clearly. My
language probably causes pain in anybody knowledgeable enough to answer
the question.

Bill

--
Bill Swears

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Ben Franklin, 1755 "Historical Review of Pennsylvania"

To think that was once a right wing comment. In the land of Homeland
Security it seems.. Suspiciously left-wing.

Ya shoulda used stainless.

jw

Bill Swears wrote:
Ned Simmons wrote:

In article SGu1f.8119$oc.7024
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, says...

Actually, it's the plain carbon steel that is brittle at low temps,
adding some molybdenum does wonders for low temp strength.

You might want to read up on the 'Charpy' test for impact
resisitance. You put a large notch in the sample piece, use a
pendulum to swing a heavy weight into the sample. At -40 (F or C)
carbon steel just snaps.



Also search on "brittle to ductile transition temperature"

Ned Simmons

Thanks for the lead. I've been to several of those articles. It's a
land in which I need a native guide. As random luck would have it, I
had already seen some of them while I was flailing around the internet
trying to do this research on my own. What a tyro like me needs is a
simple article with a chart that shows test results. Something that
would, say, show Charpy test results for test pieces with a percentage
of a single alloying material changed.

Or, alternatively, answer this: if Molybdenum is the right metal to
lower the temperature point of material failure, should I just assume
that adding, say 1% more to the next batch will lower it's brittle
temperature without adversely affecting the overall strength. Where
overall strength is measured by shackles that can hold up a beer tent's
lines in hurricane force winds.

I know I don't know the terminology well enough to ask this clearly. My
language probably causes pain in anybody knowledgeable enough to answer
the question.

Google-groups Ed Huntress and send him an email. He's forgotten more
than most of us have ever known about steel alloys. He used to hang out
here.

I am not an expert by any means, but googled and found this.

Metallurgical Factors Affecting Transition Temperature

Changes in transition temperature of over 55=B0C (100=B0F) can be
produced by changes in the chemical composition or microstructure of
mild steel. The largest changes in transition temperature result from
changes in the amount of carbon and manganese. This transition
temperature is lowered about 5.5=B0C (10=B0F) for each increase of 0.1
percent manganese. Increasing the carbon content also has a pronounced
effect on the maximum energy and the shape of the energy
transition-tempera lure curves.

The Mn/C ratio should be at least 3/1 for satisfactory notch toughness.
A maximum decrease of about 55=B0C (100=B0F) in transition temperature
appears possible by going to higher Mn/C ratios.

Note this article is talking Manganese not Moly to lower the transition
temperature. Also note if you do some googling that the transition
temperature for mild steel is much higher than -40 F. One of the
causes of the Titanic disaster was that the rivets were made of steel
which failed at approximently plus 32 degrees F . Not minus 32 F.
Similar failure occurred during WWII.

The high strength Kryptonite bike lock will shatter when cooled with a
can of stuff used for cooling electronics ( troubleshooting ) and hit
with a hammer.

You can make a alloy with a lot of manganese which has high wear
qualities. I think it is also high strength, so I don't think that
adding too much manganese is a problem.


Dan

Machinerys mentions steel with low manganese can be very brittle and at
about 4 - 5.5% manganese is so brittle it can be pulverised with a
hammer. Raising the manganese levels further increases the ductility
upto 12% (Hadfield steel) which does have extremely good wear
properties. Looks like one should be careful with the manganese additions.

wrote:

I am not an expert by any means, but googled and found this.

Metallurgical Factors Affecting Transition Temperature

Changes in transition temperature of over 55°C (100°F) can be
produced by changes in the chemical composition or microstructure of
mild steel. The largest changes in transition temperature result from
changes in the amount of carbon and manganese. This transition
temperature is lowered about 5.5°C (10°F) for each increase of 0.1
percent manganese. Increasing the carbon content also has a pronounced
effect on the maximum energy and the shape of the energy
transition-tempera lure curves.

The Mn/C ratio should be at least 3/1 for satisfactory notch toughness.
A maximum decrease of about 55°C (100°F) in transition temperature
appears possible by going to higher Mn/C ratios.

Note this article is talking Manganese not Moly to lower the transition
temperature. Also note if you do some googling that the transition
temperature for mild steel is much higher than -40 F. One of the
causes of the Titanic disaster was that the rivets were made of steel
which failed at approximently plus 32 degrees F . Not minus 32 F.
Similar failure occurred during WWII.

The high strength Kryptonite bike lock will shatter when cooled with a
can of stuff used for cooling electronics ( troubleshooting ) and hit
with a hammer.

You can make a alloy with a lot of manganese which has high wear
qualities. I think it is also high strength, so I don't think that
adding too much manganese is a problem.


Dan

According to Bill Swears :
Hi, I'm a fantasy and science fiction writer, and was recommended to
this group for a technical question.

Well, maybe 'technical' is stretching things.

I've written a bit where snaps and shackles were made of a steel. They
tested well in normal temperatures, but shattered under load at about
-40. I used manganese as a placeholder, but would like to use a correct
alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to
"try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese
placeholder.

Can anybody help me? Have I provided enough information?

You've gotten quite a few followups, and what looks like some
pretty good information.

I am pleased to see a SF writer actually researching what he
writes. Please post here to let us know when the story reaches print,
where, and under what title.

Is this the name under which you write? I must admit to not
having encountered it -- but if you are publishing mostly in magazines,
I probably would not for quite a while.

Best of luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I am so easily confused. I just looked at the MSDS for Hobart welding
rods and it says that 6013 and 7018 contain 1 to 5 % Manganese.

Dan

I suspect thats information to do with the overall rod composition, not
the deposited weld metal. I had a quick look for that info as i've seen
it before but couldn't find it.

wrote:

I am so easily confused. I just looked at the MSDS for Hobart welding
rods and it says that 6013 and 7018 contain 1 to 5 % Manganese.

Dan

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 23:14:54 -0800, Bill Swears
wrote:

Hi, I'm a fantasy and science fiction writer, and was recommended to
this group for a technical question.

Well, maybe 'technical' is stretching things.

I've written a bit where snaps and shackles were made of a steel. They
tested well in normal temperatures, but shattered under load at about
-40. I used manganese as a placeholder, but would like to use a correct
alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to
"try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese
placeholder.

Can anybody help me? Have I provided enough information?

How about purifying the steel rather than alloying it? Perhaps the
snaps and shackles had too much carbon. Mild steel bolts and things
don't seem to snap at -40 here in MN.

Perhaps one of the lurking metallurgists could suggest an additive or
process that would remove carbon as CO or CO2 in the wizard's lair.

Don Foreman wrote:
On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 23:14:54 -0800, Bill Swears
wrote:


Hi, I'm a fantasy and science fiction writer, and was recommended to
this group for a technical question.

Well, maybe 'technical' is stretching things.

I've written a bit where snaps and shackles were made of a steel. They
tested well in normal temperatures, but shattered under load at about
-40. I used manganese as a placeholder, but would like to use a correct
alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to
"try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese
placeholder.

Can anybody help me? Have I provided enough information?


How about purifying the steel rather than alloying it? Perhaps the
snaps and shackles had too much carbon. Mild steel bolts and things
don't seem to snap at -40 here in MN.

Perhaps one of the lurking metallurgists could suggest an additive or
process that would remove carbon as CO or CO2 in the wizard's lair.

Welds are more prone to failure at low temperatures, but you wouldn't
have any welds on snaps or shackles.

Chris

Don Foreman wrote:


How about purifying the steel rather than alloying it? Perhaps the
snaps and shackles had too much carbon. Mild steel bolts and things
don't seem to snap at -40 here in MN.

Perhaps one of the lurking metallurgists could suggest an additive or
process that would remove carbon as CO or CO2 in the wizard's lair.

I am hoping for that lurking metalurgist to pop in.

Bill

Bill Swears wrote in news:11kg88gp23ubae6
@corp.supernews.com:

Don Foreman wrote:


How about purifying the steel rather than alloying it? Perhaps the
snaps and shackles had too much carbon. Mild steel bolts and things
don't seem to snap at -40 here in MN.

Perhaps one of the lurking metallurgists could suggest an additive or
process that would remove carbon as CO or CO2 in the wizard's lair.

I am hoping for that lurking metalurgist to pop in.


Try posting to sci.engr.metallurgy, they seem to be a pretty helpful bunch.



--

Dan

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...


Google-groups Ed Huntress and send him an email. He's forgotten more
than most of us have ever known about steel alloys. He used to hang out
here.


Somebody told me in email that my name came up. My narcissistic gene got the
best of me.

Sorry, I've never studied cold behavior of steel in any detail. I was always
interested in the hot side. I know as much about it as the average hack.

However, here's a good article that should serve the purpose. It's
layman-friendly, but gives enough info for a serious writer who wants some
background. Hint: Manganese is the big player. But for old alloys, nickel
might be the alloying ingredient that you'd want to put in play in a
historical story:

http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art136.htm

Happy writing.

Ed Huntress

(If I still have the "3" in my return address, remove it before sending me
e-mail.)

It is nice to hear your (online) "voice".

This place went to total rat**** for a while, but lately it has been looking
up. Maybe hang around for a bit? How's it going, anyway?

Regards,

Adam Smith,
Midland, ON


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...


snip

Somebody told me in email that my name came up. My narcissistic gene got
the
best of me.

Sorry, I've never studied cold behavior of steel in any detail. I was
always
interested in the hot side. I know as much about it as the average hack.

However, here's a good article that should serve the purpose. It's
layman-friendly, but gives enough info for a serious writer who wants some
background. Hint: Manganese is the big player. But for old alloys, nickel
might be the alloying ingredient that you'd want to put in play in a
historical story:

http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art136.htm

Happy writing.

Ed Huntress

(If I still have the "3" in my return address, remove it before sending me
e-mail.)

"Adam Smith" wrote in message
...
It is nice to hear your (online) "voice".

This place went to total rat**** for a while, but lately it has been
looking
up. Maybe hang around for a bit? How's it going, anyway?

Regards,

Adam Smith,
Midland, ON

Hi, Adam. Thanks, but I swore off back in June because too much important
work was going undone. I've really had to hustle to get where I wanted to
be, and staying offline as much as I can has been a big help. I'm ashamed to
say I'm even 'way behind on my e-mail responses.

It's a lot of fun here on r.c.m., and I really got off because of the tone
of voice on alt.machines.cnc, rather that because of anything going on here.

Things are going well. I've been writing and editing. I'm taking my
17-year-old kid on college visits, helping my wife with her master's degree
research, and generally being more productive than I've been for a while.
g

However, I do miss a lot of you guys. How are things going with you?

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)

Ed Huntress wrote:
However, here's a good article that should serve the purpose. It's
layman-friendly, but gives enough info for a serious writer who wants some
background. Hint: Manganese is the big player. But for old alloys, nickel
might be the alloying ingredient that you'd want to put in play in a
historical story:

http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art136.htm

Happy writing.


Thanks, glad you dropped by. I've gotten some very good leads, almost
all directing me to key-to-steel. I think I've got it now. My hardest
problem became finding a mix for a good basic steel, so I could
determine what the changes were.

Bill

"Bill Swears" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
However, here's a good article that should serve the purpose. It's
layman-friendly, but gives enough info for a serious writer who wants
some
background. Hint: Manganese is the big player. But for old alloys,
nickel
might be the alloying ingredient that you'd want to put in play in a
historical story:

http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art136.htm

Happy writing.


Thanks, glad you dropped by. I've gotten some very good leads, almost
all directing me to key-to-steel. I think I've got it now. My hardest
problem became finding a mix for a good basic steel, so I could
determine what the changes were.

Bill

I forget the period you're writing about, but I seem to recall it was
something from perhaps a century ago. Alloys were simpler in those days.
Most steels were plain-carbon (as they are today, actually), and the
multi-component alloys were just getting started. Stainless steel hadn't
been discovered yet.

There probably is some historical account available somewhere that tells us
*when* it was recognized that adding nickel, and then manganese, made steel
more resistant to brittle fracture at low temperatures. But as a non-fiction
writer myself, my feeling is that anyone who might know about that, when
most of the fairly knowledgeable ones here don't, is a reader so rare that
you really don't have to worry about him. g

Good luck in your quest.

Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Bill Swears" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:

However, here's a good article that should serve the purpose. It's
layman-friendly, but gives enough info for a serious writer who wants

some

background. Hint: Manganese is the big player. But for old alloys,

nickel

might be the alloying ingredient that you'd want to put in play in a
historical story:

http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art136.htm

Happy writing.


Thanks, glad you dropped by. I've gotten some very good leads, almost
all directing me to key-to-steel. I think I've got it now. My hardest
problem became finding a mix for a good basic steel, so I could
determine what the changes were.

Bill


I forget the period you're writing about, but I seem to recall it was
something from perhaps a century ago. Alloys were simpler in those days.
Most steels were plain-carbon (as they are today, actually), and the
multi-component alloys were just getting started. Stainless steel hadn't
been discovered yet.

There probably is some historical account available somewhere that tells us
*when* it was recognized that adding nickel, and then manganese, made steel
more resistant to brittle fracture at low temperatures. But as a non-fiction
writer myself, my feeling is that anyone who might know about that, when
most of the fairly knowledgeable ones here don't, is a reader so rare that
you really don't have to worry about him. g

Good luck in your quest.

Ed Huntress


I'm writing a fantasy, set in a culture that has voluntarily ended
technological life, but is discovering some of the shortfalls to that
stance. What I wanted to avoid was suggesting sulphur would increase
resistance to brittle fracture.

Or, in my case, my 'expert' character had suggesting using *less*
manganese, when he should have suggested using more. And I had no idea
at all that nickel had such a profound impact on low temp brittle fracture.

At any rate, I think I can now safely have him utter a one sentence
mixing instruction without going diametrically off target.

--
Bill Swears

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Ben Franklin, 1755 "Historical Review of Pennsylvania"

To think that was once a right wing comment. In the land of Homeland
Security it seems.. Suspiciously left-wing.

"Bill Swears" wrote in message
...
alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to
"try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese
placeholder.

Manganese, nickel and carbon are good starting points as mentioned above.
Sulfur is by far the most sensitive impurity, however; steel gets pretty
crappy about 0.1% S! In contrast, a typical mild steel has around 0.5 to 1%
manganese and 0.2% carbon (1020 alloy).

Note that sulfur is always quoted as an impurity -- no alloy specification
has it within a range; it's always less than X. Likewise, you would never
add sulfur except to intentionally spoil a batch. Normally, pains are taken
to reduce it, e.g. good ore selection, basic (alkaline) refractory and
slags, etc. (Dolomite and magnesia are used today in the manufacture of
steel, hence the term "basic oxygen process" for example.)

To reduce carbon, add oxide -- rust, ore, etc. Alternately, introduce air
through a clay pipe as Bessemer did it originally (google "Henry Bessemer
Autobiograpy", neat stuff).

For specs, www.matweb.com has a rich database, and you can probably find
information on brittle-ductile transition temperatures for some alloys, too.

Tim

--
Deep Fryer: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

In article ,
says...
"Bill Swears" wrote in message
...
alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to
"try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese
placeholder.

Manganese, nickel and carbon are good starting points as mentioned above.
Sulfur is by far the most sensitive impurity, however; steel gets pretty
crappy about 0.1% S! In contrast, a typical mild steel has around 0.5 to 1%
manganese and 0.2% carbon (1020 alloy).

Note that sulfur is always quoted as an impurity -- no alloy specification
has it within a range; it's always less than X. Likewise, you would never
add sulfur except to intentionally spoil a batch.

No, sulfur is intentionally added in specific percentages
to many steels to improve machinability.

Ned Simmons

According to Tim Williams :
"Bill Swears" wrote in message
...
alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to
"try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese
placeholder.

Manganese, nickel and carbon are good starting points as mentioned above.
Sulfur is by far the most sensitive impurity, however; steel gets pretty
crappy about 0.1% S! In contrast, a typical mild steel has around 0.5 to 1%
manganese and 0.2% carbon (1020 alloy).

Note that sulfur is always quoted as an impurity -- no alloy specification
has it within a range; it's always less than X. Likewise, you would never
add sulfur except to intentionally spoil a batch.

Earle M. Jorgensen Co. Steel book #71:

1141 Hot Rolled Bars:

Carbon 0.37/0.45
Manganese: 1.35/1.65
Phosphorous: 0.04 Max
Sulphur: 0.08/0.13 ----------

1213 -- 1215 Free Machining Cold Finished Bars (Screw Machine
Stock)

Ingredient 1213 1215
==================================================
Carbon: 0.13 Max 0.09 Max
Manganese: 0.70/1.00 0.075/1.05
Phosphorous: 0.07/0.12 0.04/0.09
Sulphur: 0.24/0.33 0.26/0.35 ----------

And -- on the next page, under "Super Free Machining Steels -- Leaded"

Leaded Grade B:

Carbon: 0.15 Max
Manganese: 0.85/1.35
Phosphorous: 0.04/0.09
Sulphur 0.40 Min --------------------

Yes -- it says "Min" in the book for "Leaded Grade B"

"Leaded Grade A" has the Sulphur at 0.26/0.35, and the AX, AY
and AZ grades have added Tellurium, Selenium, or Bismuth respectively.

Grade A is also known as 12L14 (among other names) FWIW.

So -- There *are* steels to which Sulphur is an intentional
addition, including at least one where there is a "Minimum" instead of a
"Max" or a range.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
Sulphur: 0.08/0.13 ----------
(and others)

Ah, I sit corrected, thanks for the references

Tim

--
Deep Fryer: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"Tim Williams" wrote in message
...
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
Sulphur: 0.08/0.13 ----------
(and others)

Ah, I sit corrected, thanks for the references

Tim

It's mostly for free-machining production-type steels, used in conjunction
with phosphorus and/or calcium. Those alloys are not of much interest for
small-shop work, except for the ones that are also leaded.

The non-leaded free-machining alloys have been common in production since,
roughly, the mid-'70s.

Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress says...

Things are going well. I've been writing and editing. I'm taking my
17-year-old kid on college visits, helping my wife with her master's degree
research, and generally being more productive than I've been for a while.

Hi Ed! It's great to see you posting if only as a once-in-a-while.

Good luck on the college thing, I happen to be exactly in the same
boat. So far it's been SUNY Geneseo and Cornell, next up will be
some schools in the Boston area.

This is the easy part, just consider what happens when the bills
come due!!

Best to you - Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Ed Huntress says...

Things are going well. I've been writing and editing. I'm taking my
17-year-old kid on college visits, helping my wife with her master's
degree
research, and generally being more productive than I've been for a while.

Hi Ed! It's great to see you posting if only as a once-in-a-while.

Hi, Jim. I had a little spare time over the past week. It's a real luxury
these days.


Good luck on the college thing, I happen to be exactly in the same
boat. So far it's been SUNY Geneseo and Cornell, next up will be
some schools in the Boston area.

We're going up to Boston soon, too. Last week we had two days off and went
down to D.C.: American Univ., George Washington, and Georgetown. Then we're
going over to Bucknell. It will all be over in another month or so.


This is the easy part, just consider what happens when the bills
come due!!

I'm working on getting a better-paying job. g


Best to you - Jim

Same to you, Jim.

--
Ed Huntress