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Steel Mixtures
Hi, I'm a fantasy and science fiction writer, and was recommended to
this group for a technical question. Well, maybe 'technical' is stretching things. I've written a bit where snaps and shackles were made of a steel. They tested well in normal temperatures, but shattered under load at about -40. I used manganese as a placeholder, but would like to use a correct alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to "try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese placeholder. Can anybody help me? Have I provided enough information? Bill |
There are dozens of other metals you could add to the alloy for various
effects and an infinite range of strength characteristics. Cobalt, Beryllium, Titanium & Vanadium come to mind off the top of my head. There's also the ultimate alloy ingredients, Kryptonite and Unobtainium. G Enjoy, Bugs |
Actually, it's the plain carbon steel that is brittle at low temps,
adding some molybdenum does wonders for low temp strength. You might want to read up on the 'Charpy' test for impact resisitance. You put a large notch in the sample piece, use a pendulum to swing a heavy weight into the sample. At -40 (F or C) carbon steel just snaps. Bill Swears wrote: Hi, I'm a fantasy and science fiction writer, and was recommended to this group for a technical question. Well, maybe 'technical' is stretching things. I've written a bit where snaps and shackles were made of a steel. They tested well in normal temperatures, but shattered under load at about -40. I used manganese as a placeholder, but would like to use a correct alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to "try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese placeholder. Can anybody help me? Have I provided enough information? Bill |
From a manufacturing side that seem pretty unlikely to happen unless
there is criminal substitution or a great deal of incompetence on the part of the buyer. |
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Ned Simmons wrote:
In article SGu1f.8119$oc.7024 @newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, says... Actually, it's the plain carbon steel that is brittle at low temps, adding some molybdenum does wonders for low temp strength. You might want to read up on the 'Charpy' test for impact resisitance. You put a large notch in the sample piece, use a pendulum to swing a heavy weight into the sample. At -40 (F or C) carbon steel just snaps. Also search on "brittle to ductile transition temperature" Ned Simmons Thanks for the lead. I've been to several of those articles. It's a land in which I need a native guide. As random luck would have it, I had already seen some of them while I was flailing around the internet trying to do this research on my own. What a tyro like me needs is a simple article with a chart that shows test results. Something that would, say, show Charpy test results for test pieces with a percentage of a single alloying material changed. Or, alternatively, answer this: if Molybdenum is the right metal to lower the temperature point of material failure, should I just assume that adding, say 1% more to the next batch will lower it's brittle temperature without adversely affecting the overall strength. Where overall strength is measured by shackles that can hold up a beer tent's lines in hurricane force winds. I know I don't know the terminology well enough to ask this clearly. My language probably causes pain in anybody knowledgeable enough to answer the question. Bill -- Bill Swears They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Ben Franklin, 1755 "Historical Review of Pennsylvania" To think that was once a right wing comment. In the land of Homeland Security it seems.. Suspiciously left-wing. |
Ya shoulda used stainless.
jw |
Bill Swears wrote:
Ned Simmons wrote: In article SGu1f.8119$oc.7024 @newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, says... Actually, it's the plain carbon steel that is brittle at low temps, adding some molybdenum does wonders for low temp strength. You might want to read up on the 'Charpy' test for impact resisitance. You put a large notch in the sample piece, use a pendulum to swing a heavy weight into the sample. At -40 (F or C) carbon steel just snaps. Also search on "brittle to ductile transition temperature" Ned Simmons Thanks for the lead. I've been to several of those articles. It's a land in which I need a native guide. As random luck would have it, I had already seen some of them while I was flailing around the internet trying to do this research on my own. What a tyro like me needs is a simple article with a chart that shows test results. Something that would, say, show Charpy test results for test pieces with a percentage of a single alloying material changed. Or, alternatively, answer this: if Molybdenum is the right metal to lower the temperature point of material failure, should I just assume that adding, say 1% more to the next batch will lower it's brittle temperature without adversely affecting the overall strength. Where overall strength is measured by shackles that can hold up a beer tent's lines in hurricane force winds. I know I don't know the terminology well enough to ask this clearly. My language probably causes pain in anybody knowledgeable enough to answer the question. Google-groups Ed Huntress and send him an email. He's forgotten more than most of us have ever known about steel alloys. He used to hang out here. |
I am not an expert by any means, but googled and found this.
Metallurgical Factors Affecting Transition Temperature Changes in transition temperature of over 55=B0C (100=B0F) can be produced by changes in the chemical composition or microstructure of mild steel. The largest changes in transition temperature result from changes in the amount of carbon and manganese. This transition temperature is lowered about 5.5=B0C (10=B0F) for each increase of 0.1 percent manganese. Increasing the carbon content also has a pronounced effect on the maximum energy and the shape of the energy transition-tempera lure curves. The Mn/C ratio should be at least 3/1 for satisfactory notch toughness. A maximum decrease of about 55=B0C (100=B0F) in transition temperature appears possible by going to higher Mn/C ratios. Note this article is talking Manganese not Moly to lower the transition temperature. Also note if you do some googling that the transition temperature for mild steel is much higher than -40 F. One of the causes of the Titanic disaster was that the rivets were made of steel which failed at approximently plus 32 degrees F . Not minus 32 F. Similar failure occurred during WWII. The high strength Kryptonite bike lock will shatter when cooled with a can of stuff used for cooling electronics ( troubleshooting ) and hit with a hammer. You can make a alloy with a lot of manganese which has high wear qualities. I think it is also high strength, so I don't think that adding too much manganese is a problem. Dan |
Machinerys mentions steel with low manganese can be very brittle and at
about 4 - 5.5% manganese is so brittle it can be pulverised with a hammer. Raising the manganese levels further increases the ductility upto 12% (Hadfield steel) which does have extremely good wear properties. Looks like one should be careful with the manganese additions. wrote: I am not an expert by any means, but googled and found this. Metallurgical Factors Affecting Transition Temperature Changes in transition temperature of over 55°C (100°F) can be produced by changes in the chemical composition or microstructure of mild steel. The largest changes in transition temperature result from changes in the amount of carbon and manganese. This transition temperature is lowered about 5.5°C (10°F) for each increase of 0.1 percent manganese. Increasing the carbon content also has a pronounced effect on the maximum energy and the shape of the energy transition-tempera lure curves. The Mn/C ratio should be at least 3/1 for satisfactory notch toughness. A maximum decrease of about 55°C (100°F) in transition temperature appears possible by going to higher Mn/C ratios. Note this article is talking Manganese not Moly to lower the transition temperature. Also note if you do some googling that the transition temperature for mild steel is much higher than -40 F. One of the causes of the Titanic disaster was that the rivets were made of steel which failed at approximently plus 32 degrees F . Not minus 32 F. Similar failure occurred during WWII. The high strength Kryptonite bike lock will shatter when cooled with a can of stuff used for cooling electronics ( troubleshooting ) and hit with a hammer. You can make a alloy with a lot of manganese which has high wear qualities. I think it is also high strength, so I don't think that adding too much manganese is a problem. Dan |
According to Bill Swears :
Hi, I'm a fantasy and science fiction writer, and was recommended to this group for a technical question. Well, maybe 'technical' is stretching things. I've written a bit where snaps and shackles were made of a steel. They tested well in normal temperatures, but shattered under load at about -40. I used manganese as a placeholder, but would like to use a correct alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to "try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese placeholder. Can anybody help me? Have I provided enough information? You've gotten quite a few followups, and what looks like some pretty good information. I am pleased to see a SF writer actually researching what he writes. Please post here to let us know when the story reaches print, where, and under what title. Is this the name under which you write? I must admit to not having encountered it -- but if you are publishing mostly in magazines, I probably would not for quite a while. Best of luck, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
I am so easily confused. I just looked at the MSDS for Hobart welding
rods and it says that 6013 and 7018 contain 1 to 5 % Manganese. Dan |
Steel Mixtures
I suspect thats information to do with the overall rod composition, not
the deposited weld metal. I had a quick look for that info as i've seen it before but couldn't find it. wrote: I am so easily confused. I just looked at the MSDS for Hobart welding rods and it says that 6013 and 7018 contain 1 to 5 % Manganese. Dan |
Steel Mixtures
On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 23:14:54 -0800, Bill Swears
wrote: Hi, I'm a fantasy and science fiction writer, and was recommended to this group for a technical question. Well, maybe 'technical' is stretching things. I've written a bit where snaps and shackles were made of a steel. They tested well in normal temperatures, but shattered under load at about -40. I used manganese as a placeholder, but would like to use a correct alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to "try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese placeholder. Can anybody help me? Have I provided enough information? How about purifying the steel rather than alloying it? Perhaps the snaps and shackles had too much carbon. Mild steel bolts and things don't seem to snap at -40 here in MN. Perhaps one of the lurking metallurgists could suggest an additive or process that would remove carbon as CO or CO2 in the wizard's lair. |
Steel Mixtures
Don Foreman wrote:
On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 23:14:54 -0800, Bill Swears wrote: Hi, I'm a fantasy and science fiction writer, and was recommended to this group for a technical question. Well, maybe 'technical' is stretching things. I've written a bit where snaps and shackles were made of a steel. They tested well in normal temperatures, but shattered under load at about -40. I used manganese as a placeholder, but would like to use a correct alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to "try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese placeholder. Can anybody help me? Have I provided enough information? How about purifying the steel rather than alloying it? Perhaps the snaps and shackles had too much carbon. Mild steel bolts and things don't seem to snap at -40 here in MN. Perhaps one of the lurking metallurgists could suggest an additive or process that would remove carbon as CO or CO2 in the wizard's lair. Welds are more prone to failure at low temperatures, but you wouldn't have any welds on snaps or shackles. Chris |
Steel Mixtures
Don Foreman wrote:
How about purifying the steel rather than alloying it? Perhaps the snaps and shackles had too much carbon. Mild steel bolts and things don't seem to snap at -40 here in MN. Perhaps one of the lurking metallurgists could suggest an additive or process that would remove carbon as CO or CO2 in the wizard's lair. I am hoping for that lurking metalurgist to pop in. Bill |
Steel Mixtures
Bill Swears wrote in news:11kg88gp23ubae6
@corp.supernews.com: Don Foreman wrote: How about purifying the steel rather than alloying it? Perhaps the snaps and shackles had too much carbon. Mild steel bolts and things don't seem to snap at -40 here in MN. Perhaps one of the lurking metallurgists could suggest an additive or process that would remove carbon as CO or CO2 in the wizard's lair. I am hoping for that lurking metalurgist to pop in. Try posting to sci.engr.metallurgy, they seem to be a pretty helpful bunch. -- Dan |
Steel Mixtures
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
... Google-groups Ed Huntress and send him an email. He's forgotten more than most of us have ever known about steel alloys. He used to hang out here. Somebody told me in email that my name came up. My narcissistic gene got the best of me. Sorry, I've never studied cold behavior of steel in any detail. I was always interested in the hot side. I know as much about it as the average hack. However, here's a good article that should serve the purpose. It's layman-friendly, but gives enough info for a serious writer who wants some background. Hint: Manganese is the big player. But for old alloys, nickel might be the alloying ingredient that you'd want to put in play in a historical story: http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art136.htm Happy writing. Ed Huntress (If I still have the "3" in my return address, remove it before sending me e-mail.) |
Steel Mixtures
It is nice to hear your (online) "voice".
This place went to total rat**** for a while, but lately it has been looking up. Maybe hang around for a bit? How's it going, anyway? Regards, Adam Smith, Midland, ON "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Jim Stewart" wrote in message ... snip Somebody told me in email that my name came up. My narcissistic gene got the best of me. Sorry, I've never studied cold behavior of steel in any detail. I was always interested in the hot side. I know as much about it as the average hack. However, here's a good article that should serve the purpose. It's layman-friendly, but gives enough info for a serious writer who wants some background. Hint: Manganese is the big player. But for old alloys, nickel might be the alloying ingredient that you'd want to put in play in a historical story: http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art136.htm Happy writing. Ed Huntress (If I still have the "3" in my return address, remove it before sending me e-mail.) |
Steel Mixtures
"Adam Smith" wrote in message
... It is nice to hear your (online) "voice". This place went to total rat**** for a while, but lately it has been looking up. Maybe hang around for a bit? How's it going, anyway? Regards, Adam Smith, Midland, ON Hi, Adam. Thanks, but I swore off back in June because too much important work was going undone. I've really had to hustle to get where I wanted to be, and staying offline as much as I can has been a big help. I'm ashamed to say I'm even 'way behind on my e-mail responses. It's a lot of fun here on r.c.m., and I really got off because of the tone of voice on alt.machines.cnc, rather that because of anything going on here. Things are going well. I've been writing and editing. I'm taking my 17-year-old kid on college visits, helping my wife with her master's degree research, and generally being more productive than I've been for a while. g However, I do miss a lot of you guys. How are things going with you? -- Ed Huntress (remove "3" from email address for email reply) |
Steel Mixtures
Ed Huntress wrote:
However, here's a good article that should serve the purpose. It's layman-friendly, but gives enough info for a serious writer who wants some background. Hint: Manganese is the big player. But for old alloys, nickel might be the alloying ingredient that you'd want to put in play in a historical story: http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art136.htm Happy writing. Thanks, glad you dropped by. I've gotten some very good leads, almost all directing me to key-to-steel. I think I've got it now. My hardest problem became finding a mix for a good basic steel, so I could determine what the changes were. Bill |
Steel Mixtures
"Bill Swears" wrote in message
... Ed Huntress wrote: However, here's a good article that should serve the purpose. It's layman-friendly, but gives enough info for a serious writer who wants some background. Hint: Manganese is the big player. But for old alloys, nickel might be the alloying ingredient that you'd want to put in play in a historical story: http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art136.htm Happy writing. Thanks, glad you dropped by. I've gotten some very good leads, almost all directing me to key-to-steel. I think I've got it now. My hardest problem became finding a mix for a good basic steel, so I could determine what the changes were. Bill I forget the period you're writing about, but I seem to recall it was something from perhaps a century ago. Alloys were simpler in those days. Most steels were plain-carbon (as they are today, actually), and the multi-component alloys were just getting started. Stainless steel hadn't been discovered yet. There probably is some historical account available somewhere that tells us *when* it was recognized that adding nickel, and then manganese, made steel more resistant to brittle fracture at low temperatures. But as a non-fiction writer myself, my feeling is that anyone who might know about that, when most of the fairly knowledgeable ones here don't, is a reader so rare that you really don't have to worry about him. g Good luck in your quest. Ed Huntress |
Steel Mixtures
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Bill Swears" wrote in message ... Ed Huntress wrote: However, here's a good article that should serve the purpose. It's layman-friendly, but gives enough info for a serious writer who wants some background. Hint: Manganese is the big player. But for old alloys, nickel might be the alloying ingredient that you'd want to put in play in a historical story: http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art136.htm Happy writing. Thanks, glad you dropped by. I've gotten some very good leads, almost all directing me to key-to-steel. I think I've got it now. My hardest problem became finding a mix for a good basic steel, so I could determine what the changes were. Bill I forget the period you're writing about, but I seem to recall it was something from perhaps a century ago. Alloys were simpler in those days. Most steels were plain-carbon (as they are today, actually), and the multi-component alloys were just getting started. Stainless steel hadn't been discovered yet. There probably is some historical account available somewhere that tells us *when* it was recognized that adding nickel, and then manganese, made steel more resistant to brittle fracture at low temperatures. But as a non-fiction writer myself, my feeling is that anyone who might know about that, when most of the fairly knowledgeable ones here don't, is a reader so rare that you really don't have to worry about him. g Good luck in your quest. Ed Huntress I'm writing a fantasy, set in a culture that has voluntarily ended technological life, but is discovering some of the shortfalls to that stance. What I wanted to avoid was suggesting sulphur would increase resistance to brittle fracture. Or, in my case, my 'expert' character had suggesting using *less* manganese, when he should have suggested using more. And I had no idea at all that nickel had such a profound impact on low temp brittle fracture. At any rate, I think I can now safely have him utter a one sentence mixing instruction without going diametrically off target. -- Bill Swears They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Ben Franklin, 1755 "Historical Review of Pennsylvania" To think that was once a right wing comment. In the land of Homeland Security it seems.. Suspiciously left-wing. |
Steel Mixtures
"Bill Swears" wrote in message
... alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to "try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese placeholder. Manganese, nickel and carbon are good starting points as mentioned above. Sulfur is by far the most sensitive impurity, however; steel gets pretty crappy about 0.1% S! In contrast, a typical mild steel has around 0.5 to 1% manganese and 0.2% carbon (1020 alloy). Note that sulfur is always quoted as an impurity -- no alloy specification has it within a range; it's always less than X. Likewise, you would never add sulfur except to intentionally spoil a batch. Normally, pains are taken to reduce it, e.g. good ore selection, basic (alkaline) refractory and slags, etc. (Dolomite and magnesia are used today in the manufacture of steel, hence the term "basic oxygen process" for example.) To reduce carbon, add oxide -- rust, ore, etc. Alternately, introduce air through a clay pipe as Bessemer did it originally (google "Henry Bessemer Autobiograpy", neat stuff). For specs, www.matweb.com has a rich database, and you can probably find information on brittle-ductile transition temperatures for some alloys, too. Tim -- Deep Fryer: a very philosophical monk. Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
Steel Mixtures
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Steel Mixtures
According to Tim Williams :
"Bill Swears" wrote in message ... alloying material to have my 'expert' character tell the journeyman to "try using a little less (or a little more) X" where X is my manganese placeholder. Manganese, nickel and carbon are good starting points as mentioned above. Sulfur is by far the most sensitive impurity, however; steel gets pretty crappy about 0.1% S! In contrast, a typical mild steel has around 0.5 to 1% manganese and 0.2% carbon (1020 alloy). Note that sulfur is always quoted as an impurity -- no alloy specification has it within a range; it's always less than X. Likewise, you would never add sulfur except to intentionally spoil a batch. Earle M. Jorgensen Co. Steel book #71: 1141 Hot Rolled Bars: Carbon 0.37/0.45 Manganese: 1.35/1.65 Phosphorous: 0.04 Max Sulphur: 0.08/0.13 ---------- 1213 -- 1215 Free Machining Cold Finished Bars (Screw Machine Stock) Ingredient 1213 1215 ================================================== Carbon: 0.13 Max 0.09 Max Manganese: 0.70/1.00 0.075/1.05 Phosphorous: 0.07/0.12 0.04/0.09 Sulphur: 0.24/0.33 0.26/0.35 ---------- And -- on the next page, under "Super Free Machining Steels -- Leaded" Leaded Grade B: Carbon: 0.15 Max Manganese: 0.85/1.35 Phosphorous: 0.04/0.09 Sulphur 0.40 Min -------------------- Yes -- it says "Min" in the book for "Leaded Grade B" "Leaded Grade A" has the Sulphur at 0.26/0.35, and the AX, AY and AZ grades have added Tellurium, Selenium, or Bismuth respectively. Grade A is also known as 12L14 (among other names) FWIW. So -- There *are* steels to which Sulphur is an intentional addition, including at least one where there is a "Minimum" instead of a "Max" or a range. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
Steel Mixtures
"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
... Sulphur: 0.08/0.13 ---------- (and others) Ah, I sit corrected, thanks for the references :) Tim -- Deep Fryer: a very philosophical monk. Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
Steel Mixtures
"Tim Williams" wrote in message
... "DoN. Nichols" wrote in message ... Sulphur: 0.08/0.13 ---------- (and others) Ah, I sit corrected, thanks for the references :) Tim It's mostly for free-machining production-type steels, used in conjunction with phosphorus and/or calcium. Those alloys are not of much interest for small-shop work, except for the ones that are also leaded. The non-leaded free-machining alloys have been common in production since, roughly, the mid-'70s. Ed Huntress |
Steel Mixtures
In article , Ed Huntress says...
Things are going well. I've been writing and editing. I'm taking my 17-year-old kid on college visits, helping my wife with her master's degree research, and generally being more productive than I've been for a while. Hi Ed! It's great to see you posting if only as a once-in-a-while. Good luck on the college thing, I happen to be exactly in the same boat. So far it's been SUNY Geneseo and Cornell, next up will be some schools in the Boston area. This is the easy part, just consider what happens when the bills come due!! Best to you - Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
Steel Mixtures
-- Ed Huntress (remove "3" from email address for email reply) "jim rozen" wrote in message ... In article , Ed Huntress says... Things are going well. I've been writing and editing. I'm taking my 17-year-old kid on college visits, helping my wife with her master's degree research, and generally being more productive than I've been for a while. Hi Ed! It's great to see you posting if only as a once-in-a-while. Hi, Jim. I had a little spare time over the past week. It's a real luxury these days. Good luck on the college thing, I happen to be exactly in the same boat. So far it's been SUNY Geneseo and Cornell, next up will be some schools in the Boston area. We're going up to Boston soon, too. Last week we had two days off and went down to D.C.: American Univ., George Washington, and Georgetown. Then we're going over to Bucknell. It will all be over in another month or so. This is the easy part, just consider what happens when the bills come due!! I'm working on getting a better-paying job. g Best to you - Jim Same to you, Jim. -- Ed Huntress |
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