"Ignoramus18928" wrote in message
...
I am confused. The nameplate on my hobart cybertig says that at 230V,
it consumes 44 amps.

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Weld...r/dscf0003.jpg

Absent the power factor number, that means roughly 220*44*sqrt(3) = 16
kW power consumption.

Yet, it is a 28V, 200A welder, which means approximately 6 kW power
output.

How can I reconcile these numbers? How can it take in 16 kW and yet
only produce 6 kW? That seems awfully wasteful.

I tried to estimate what it would take, assuming more reasonable power
efficiency.

It if produces 6 kW and wastes 2 kW as heat, then it would need 8 kW.
Estimating amps, 8 kW/220/sqrt(3) = 21 amp.

This is not an idle question for me. I have 3 phase cabling that is
capable of conducting 21 amps (combo of a 12 and 10 gauge cables). For
44 amps, I would need to spend big bucks to buy 4-6 flexible cable.

Also, I can easily support 8 kW power consumption after adding an
extra idler to my RPC. 16 kW is out of my realm of possibility due to
branch circuit capacity and common sense.

Some clarification would be appreciated.

I always thought the rated input current was the peak current (ie when you
initially strike an arc), with the rated output being the continuos current?

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 19:10:07 GMT, Ignoramus18928
wrote:

I am confused. The nameplate on my hobart cybertig says that at 230V,
it consumes 44 amps.

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Weld...r/dscf0003.jpg

Absent the power factor number, that means roughly 220*44*sqrt(3) = 16
kW power consumption.

16 KVA, not KW. Non-inverter TIG and stick welders do have low power
factor.

Yet, it is a 28V, 200A welder, which means approximately 6 kW power
output.

How can I reconcile these numbers? How can it take in 16 kW and yet
only produce 6 kW? That seems awfully wasteful.

I tried to estimate what it would take, assuming more reasonable power
efficiency.

It if produces 6 kW and wastes 2 kW as heat, then it would need 8 kW.
Estimating amps, 8 kW/220/sqrt(3) = 21 amp.

This is not an idle question for me. I have 3 phase cabling that is
capable of conducting 21 amps (combo of a 12 and 10 gauge cables). For
44 amps, I would need to spend big bucks to buy 4-6 flexible cable.

Also, I can easily support 8 kW power consumption after adding an
extra idler to my RPC. 16 kW is out of my realm of possibility due to
branch circuit capacity and common sense.

Some clarification would be appreciated.

i

"Ignoramus18928" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:21:28 +0100, Moray Cuthill
wrote:

"Ignoramus18928" wrote in message
...
I am confused. The nameplate on my hobart cybertig says that at 230V,
it consumes 44 amps.

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Weld...r/dscf0003.jpg

Absent the power factor number, that means roughly 220*44*sqrt(3) = 16
kW power consumption.

Yet, it is a 28V, 200A welder, which means approximately 6 kW power
output.

How can I reconcile these numbers? How can it take in 16 kW and yet
only produce 6 kW? That seems awfully wasteful.

I tried to estimate what it would take, assuming more reasonable power
efficiency.

It if produces 6 kW and wastes 2 kW as heat, then it would need 8 kW.
Estimating amps, 8 kW/220/sqrt(3) = 21 amp.

This is not an idle question for me. I have 3 phase cabling that is
capable of conducting 21 amps (combo of a 12 and 10 gauge cables). For
44 amps, I would need to spend big bucks to buy 4-6 flexible cable.

Also, I can easily support 8 kW power consumption after adding an
extra idler to my RPC. 16 kW is out of my realm of possibility due to
branch circuit capacity and common sense.

Some clarification would be appreciated.

I always thought the rated input current was the peak current (ie when
you
initially strike an arc), with the rated output being the continuos
current?

That makes sense... So, what would realistically happen if less power
was available to the welder, enough for continuous welding but not
enough for, say, rated starting power usage?

IFF that is true, then you'd proly just have more trouble starting yer arc,
it would seem to me.
Power factors always confused me, but the bottom line can be solved w/ a
relatively inexpensive AmpProbe, or clone. Clamp it on, see what it sez.
Def'ly a tool you should own, Ig, considering your interests.

Ito of your wire size, it all depends on the *length of the run*.
For a short run, and given that most welding is done in spurts (given 20%
duty cycles), #12 wire is proly good for 50 amps, esp. if 'exposed" (ie, not
crammed into pipe w/ 30 other wires).
Purists here will squawk like hell, but take this in context of the caveats
I mentioned. #12 wire can *easily* handle 30-40 Amps continuous, mebbe
getting a little warm.
Not recommending it, just saying you can get away with it.
So your 10/12 ga combos are proly more than adequate, if you run is not much
over 60 feet.

You can tell the effect of length on voltage drop w/ a simple bulb hooked up
to one leg, or w/ a voltmeter. I think a voltage drop of 10% is tolerable ,
if electronics are not too persnickety.
Ito of your rpc, the voltmeter will also be a good guide.

The Ampprobe is interesting as you watch it, relative to the types of arc
you strike. You can also put the ampprobe on the welding cable itself, to
see how the arc affects things.

If you are able to control things mechanically (arc stability, length, etc),
you can "verify" the nameplate for yourself, using sed amp probe/voltmeter,
ie, comparing the input/output kVA ratios you actually measure.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll



i

Ignoramus18928 wrote:
I am confused. The nameplate on my hobart cybertig says that at 230V,
it consumes 44 amps.

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Weld...r/dscf0003.jpg

Absent the power factor number, that means roughly 220*44*sqrt(3) = 16
kW power consumption.

Yet, it is a 28V, 200A welder, which means approximately 6 kW power
output.

How can I reconcile these numbers? How can it take in 16 kW and yet
only produce 6 kW? That seems awfully wasteful.

It's really just connected between two phases - essentially
single phase welder.

That's normal (unless it is inverter) for AC output. DC output can
use all 3 phases (3-phase rectifier bridge with 6 diodes), but
AC can only use single phase. For cheaper welders, even the DC uses
just single phase (transformer input from two phases) to save on
amount of diodes - 2 vs 6 or 4 vs 6, depending on xformer topology.

To verify my hypothesis, measure phase currents of input 3-phase
with clamp-on ampere meter.. It should have current on only 2
phase wires.. Of course, opening the case and looking at connections
should help as well. Propably ground, neutral and 2 phases connected,
or even without neutral (used for electronics of welder, if present).

Kristian Ukkonen.

In article ,
Ignoramus12004 wrote:



My welder does not have AC output, unless I am missing something very
big.


It is extremely rare to find AC output on a 3-phase, transformer based,
welding power supply.

AC is almost exclusively found on either 3-phase inverter based machines
or Single-phase transformer machines.

--
"I love deadlines, especially the wooshing sound they make as
they fly by" - Douglas Adams

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 22:02:10 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:


IFF that is true, then you'd proly just have more trouble starting yer arc,
it would seem to me.
Power factors always confused me, but the bottom line can be solved w/ a
relatively inexpensive AmpProbe, or clone. Clamp it on, see what it sez.
Def'ly a tool you should own, Ig, considering your interests.


The one HF is currently selling for $11 is pretty decent. I use it
everyday..or nearly so.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Ig,
If the output (arc) is not AC, then you proly can't put an amprobe on the
welding cable itself, unless they've come out with DC-measuring amprobes,
while I been asleep.
If they have, I sure would like one!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Ignoramus12004" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:51:04 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus12004 wrote:



My welder does not have AC output, unless I am missing something very
big.


It is extremely rare to find AC output on a 3-phase, transformer based,
welding power supply.

AC is almost exclusively found on either 3-phase inverter based machines
or Single-phase transformer machines.

That makes sense. So, Ernie, what are your thoughts on this welder's
amp requirements? Just how big should the phase converter be to drive
it. Again, 200 amp tig. I posted a picture of the nameplate in my
original post.

I did run it at low settings with a 10 HP idler, but I am not sure
just what it takes to run it at full power.

i

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:07:54 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Ig,
If the output (arc) is not AC, then you proly can't put an amprobe on the
welding cable itself, unless they've come out with DC-measuring amprobes,
while I been asleep.
If they have, I sure would like one!

http://tinyurl.com/b878k

http://www.omnicontrols.net/index.html?item1199.html

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:07:54 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Ig,
If the output (arc) is not AC, then you proly can't put an amprobe on the
welding cable itself, unless they've come out with DC-measuring amprobes,
while I been asleep.
If they have, I sure would like one!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Yup, I've had one for some time. Different principle, works the same.
I think it uses the Hall effect. I used it to calibrate
instrumentation on big DC drives for extruders before we went to AC
drives.

Pete Keillor

"Ignoramus12004" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:51:04 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus12004 wrote:



My welder does not have AC output, unless I am missing something very
big.


It is extremely rare to find AC output on a 3-phase, transformer based,
welding power supply.

AC is almost exclusively found on either 3-phase inverter based machines
or Single-phase transformer machines.

That makes sense. So, Ernie, what are your thoughts on this welder's
amp requirements? Just how big should the phase converter be to drive
it. Again, 200 amp tig. I posted a picture of the nameplate in my
original post.

I did run it at low settings with a 10 HP idler, but I am not sure
just what it takes to run it at full power.

i

I would imagine it's a bit pricey-er than the AC version.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

"Pete Keillor" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:07:54 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Ig,
If the output (arc) is not AC, then you proly can't put an amprobe on the
welding cable itself, unless they've come out with DC-measuring amprobes,
while I been asleep.
If they have, I sure would like one!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Yup, I've had one for some time. Different principle, works the same.
I think it uses the Hall effect. I used it to calibrate
instrumentation on big DC drives for extruders before we went to AC
drives.

Pete Keillor

"Ignoramus12004" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:51:04 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler

wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus12004 wrote:



My welder does not have AC output, unless I am missing something very
big.


It is extremely rare to find AC output on a 3-phase, transformer based,
welding power supply.

AC is almost exclusively found on either 3-phase inverter based
machines
or Single-phase transformer machines.

That makes sense. So, Ernie, what are your thoughts on this welder's
amp requirements? Just how big should the phase converter be to drive
it. Again, 200 amp tig. I posted a picture of the nameplate in my
original post.

I did run it at low settings with a 10 HP idler, but I am not sure
just what it takes to run it at full power.

i

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:24:20 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

I would imagine it's a bit pricey-er than the AC version.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

I don't recall. I bought it for work. Fluke stuff ain't cheap.

Pete

"Pete Keillor" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 16:07:54 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Ig,
If the output (arc) is not AC, then you proly can't put an amprobe on the
welding cable itself, unless they've come out with DC-measuring amprobes,
while I been asleep.
If they have, I sure would like one!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Yup, I've had one for some time. Different principle, works the same.
I think it uses the Hall effect. I used it to calibrate
instrumentation on big DC drives for extruders before we went to AC
drives.

Pete Keillor

"Ignoramus12004" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:51:04 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler

wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus12004 wrote:



My welder does not have AC output, unless I am missing something very
big.


It is extremely rare to find AC output on a 3-phase, transformer based,
welding power supply.

AC is almost exclusively found on either 3-phase inverter based
machines
or Single-phase transformer machines.

That makes sense. So, Ernie, what are your thoughts on this welder's
amp requirements? Just how big should the phase converter be to drive
it. Again, 200 amp tig. I posted a picture of the nameplate in my
original post.

I did run it at low settings with a 10 HP idler, but I am not sure
just what it takes to run it at full power.

i

Fluke makes one that plugs into your DVM and reads both A/C and D/C current.
I don't know if Amprobe makes a D/C unit yet. The Fluke is prety handy for
automotive stuff. I'll have to hang it on the welders and see what they
really do
Glenn
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...
Ig,
If the output (arc) is not AC, then you proly can't put an amprobe on the
welding cable itself, unless they've come out with DC-measuring amprobes,
while I been asleep.
If they have, I sure would like one!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Ignoramus12004" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:51:04 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus12004 wrote:



My welder does not have AC output, unless I am missing something very
big.


It is extremely rare to find AC output on a 3-phase, transformer based,
welding power supply.

AC is almost exclusively found on either 3-phase inverter based machines
or Single-phase transformer machines.

That makes sense. So, Ernie, what are your thoughts on this welder's
amp requirements? Just how big should the phase converter be to drive
it. Again, 200 amp tig. I posted a picture of the nameplate in my
original post.

I did run it at low settings with a 10 HP idler, but I am not sure
just what it takes to run it at full power.

i

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:24:20 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

I would imagine it's a bit pricey-er than the AC version.

99 bux.

In article ,
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:

Ig,
If the output (arc) is not AC, then you proly can't put an amprobe on the
welding cable itself, unless they've come out with DC-measuring amprobes,
while I been asleep.
If they have, I sure would like one!

I have a DC amprobe I use for checking welding machine output.
It is an external clamp that plugs into my Fluke meter.



----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Ignoramus12004" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:51:04 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus12004 wrote:



My welder does not have AC output, unless I am missing something very
big.


It is extremely rare to find AC output on a 3-phase, transformer based,
welding power supply.

AC is almost exclusively found on either 3-phase inverter based machines
or Single-phase transformer machines.

That makes sense. So, Ernie, what are your thoughts on this welder's
amp requirements? Just how big should the phase converter be to drive
it. Again, 200 amp tig. I posted a picture of the nameplate in my
original post.

I did run it at low settings with a 10 HP idler, but I am not sure
just what it takes to run it at full power.

i


--
"I love deadlines, especially the wooshing sound they make as
they fly by" - Douglas Adams

In article ,
Ignoramus12004 wrote:

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:51:04 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
wrote:
In article ,
Ignoramus12004 wrote:



My welder does not have AC output, unless I am missing something very
big.


It is extremely rare to find AC output on a 3-phase, transformer based,
welding power supply.

AC is almost exclusively found on either 3-phase inverter based machines
or Single-phase transformer machines.

That makes sense. So, Ernie, what are your thoughts on this welder's
amp requirements? Just how big should the phase converter be to drive
it. Again, 200 amp tig. I posted a picture of the nameplate in my
original post.

I did run it at low settings with a 10 HP idler, but I am not sure
just what it takes to run it at full power.

i

A 200 amp Transformer based welding power supply, without power
correction capacitors will draw at most 70 amps of 220 single phase.

Use an 70 or 80 amp breaker, on a NEMA 6-50 receptacle and plug.
6-50 is a 50 amp welders plug.

My Syncrowave 250DX has a 90 amp breaker on it, but it has a max output
of 310 amps.

--
"I love deadlines, especially the wooshing sound they make as
they fly by" - Douglas Adams

Oh yea - I do have a BNC to Banana plug adapter somewhere. Hum. What drawer or ...

Have a nice 1000A AC/DC Fluke. No longer made, but what the heck, if it works.
Also have AC versions for my triplet. Had two, gave one to dad. Rats. Two are nice
for two power legs.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Glenn wrote:
Fluke makes one that plugs into your DVM and reads both A/C and D/C current.
I don't know if Amprobe makes a D/C unit yet. The Fluke is prety handy for
automotive stuff. I'll have to hang it on the welders and see what they
really do
Glenn
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message
...

Ig,
If the output (arc) is not AC, then you proly can't put an amprobe on the
welding cable itself, unless they've come out with DC-measuring amprobes,
while I been asleep.
If they have, I sure would like one!
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Ignoramus12004" wrote in message
. ..

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:51:04 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
wrote:

In article ,
Ignoramus12004 wrote:



My welder does not have AC output, unless I am missing something very
big.


It is extremely rare to find AC output on a 3-phase, transformer based,
welding power supply.

AC is almost exclusively found on either 3-phase inverter based machines
or Single-phase transformer machines.

That makes sense. So, Ernie, what are your thoughts on this welder's
amp requirements? Just how big should the phase converter be to drive
it. Again, 200 amp tig. I posted a picture of the nameplate in my
original post.

I did run it at low settings with a 10 HP idler, but I am not sure
just what it takes to run it at full power.

i






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It might use a Hall effect device, but more likely a transductor. A
couple of square loop cores acting as current transformers driven with
a AC current. The AC current is proportional to the DC current.

Dan
Pete Keillor wrote:

Yup, I've had one for some time. Different principle, works the same.
I think it uses the Hall effect. I used it to calibrate
instrumentation on big DC drives for extruders before we went to AC
drives.

Pete Keillor

This is one of the few times when correcting for power factor is
worthwhile. If you correct for power factor , the current when not
welding will be much less. The current when welding will be almost the
same, but the lag on the breaker will keep it from popping.


Dan

I think you are right. The Hall-effect devices tend to be used for small
currents typically in the low amps and milliamps range.
billh

wrote in message
ups.com...
It might use a Hall effect device, but more likely a transductor. A
couple of square loop cores acting as current transformers driven with
a AC current. The AC current is proportional to the DC current.

Dan
Pete Keillor wrote:

Yup, I've had one for some time. Different principle, works the same.
I think it uses the Hall effect. I used it to calibrate
instrumentation on big DC drives for extruders before we went to AC
drives.

Pete Keillor

I am slowly catching up on a backlog of messages, so I apologize for
entering this conversation late. IIRC, you have already gotten this unit
powered up without any problems. But if you're still interested in knowing
more about the disparity between the input specifications and the output
specifications, do a google search on this newsgroup for "power factor
correction," and look especially for some explanations by Gary Coffman.

By the way, where has Gary been lately? Anybody know?

"Ignoramus26153" wrote in message
...
On 28 Sep 2005 07:33:15 -0700, wrote:
This is one of the few times when correcting for power factor is
worthwhile. If you correct for power factor , the current when not
welding will be much less. The current when welding will be almost the
same, but the lag on the breaker will keep it from popping.

Makes sense. I think that I will wire the second 7.5 HP idler with
extra run caps. So, this system of balancing caps would be activated
only when my 7.5 HP addon idler is powered up.

i