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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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Opening a big compressor's tank INSPECTION HOLE
Ignoramus29516 wrote:
I bought a 5 HP, 3 phase, 100 gallon Atlas Copco 3 phase compressor today. That could be for just resale or single phase repower and resale. The motor is 184T frame. I am concerned that, as I opened the drain, quite a bit of water drained, about 2 quarts. I am considering opening up the big inspection holes and just peeking in there to see how bad is the rust. The story of this compressor is that it was used at an auto shop, then the owner died, and it sat in the widow's garage for a while. Sitting for a while with water inside should do it less harm than being used frequently with water inside. While it's sitting, the corrosion that can occur will be limited by the amount of oxygen in the tank. Do the maths and this won't add up to a great deal of corrosion. It's the same principle as a central heating system with pressed steel radiators; they don't corrode much as there's only a limited amount of oxygen in the system. So don't worry about corrosion on the inside due to it standing. Chris |
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Sure, it isn't good when water sits in the tank. But my venerable Quincy puked a
good quart or two of rusty water several years ago when I got it going, and I figured one of these days I'd have to replace the tank. Well, it's been 5 years so far, it's holding up fine. GWE Ignoramus29516 wrote: I bought a 5 HP, 3 phase, 100 gallon Atlas Copco 3 phase compressor today. That could be for just resale or single phase repower and resale. The motor is 184T frame. I am concerned that, as I opened the drain, quite a bit of water drained, about 2 quarts. I am considering opening up the big inspection holes and just peeking in there to see how bad is the rust. The story of this compressor is that it was used at an auto shop, then the owner died, and it sat in the widow's garage for a while. That's what I was told anyway. The compresor runs fine, but I am concerned about the tank's integrity. I did not run it above 50 psi. Some more data. The compressor head is rated for 300 PSI (!). It is a bad ass head, very complicated. The tank is rated for 200 PSI. The emergency popoff valve is rated for 175 PSI. Air connections to the pressure control relay are complicated and one line's plastic fitting is broken. (hopefully no big deal that can be fixed with copper line). So, again, is it sane to try to open up the inspection hole? I tried doing it today and it just would not budge. I could make some makeshift tool, but perhaps there is something simple that I am missing. I need a square socket that would go into the hole on the plug. i |
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How big is your shop? You seem to buy stuff every day.
"Ignoramus29516" wrote in message ... I bought a 5 HP, 3 phase, 100 gallon Atlas Copco 3 phase compressor today. That could be for just resale or single phase repower and resale. The motor is 184T frame. I am concerned that, as I opened the drain, quite a bit of water drained, about 2 quarts. I am considering opening up the big inspection holes and just peeking in there to see how bad is the rust. The story of this compressor is that it was used at an auto shop, then the owner died, and it sat in the widow's garage for a while. That's what I was told anyway. The compresor runs fine, but I am concerned about the tank's integrity. I did not run it above 50 psi. Some more data. The compressor head is rated for 300 PSI (!). It is a bad ass head, very complicated. The tank is rated for 200 PSI. The emergency popoff valve is rated for 175 PSI. Air connections to the pressure control relay are complicated and one line's plastic fitting is broken. (hopefully no big deal that can be fixed with copper line). So, again, is it sane to try to open up the inspection hole? I tried doing it today and it just would not budge. I could make some makeshift tool, but perhaps there is something simple that I am missing. I need a square socket that would go into the hole on the plug. i |
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In CA compressed air tanks are required to undergo periodic inspection. The
inspector scraped a little paint off the tank, attached a small magnetic sensor to the tank and took a reading. He said in the old days they had to pull the inspection plugs, and use large, very expensive micrometers to measure the wall thickness. You may also consider hydro testing. They fill your tank with water and if it will hold 600 PSI they will certify it for 300PSI. They use water so if the tank ruptures the pressure drops to zero before the shrapnel starts flying. The local welding supply place might be able to do this for you. -- Roger Shoaf About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then they come up with this striped stuff. "Ignoramus29516" wrote in message ... I bought a 5 HP, 3 phase, 100 gallon Atlas Copco 3 phase compressor today. That could be for just resale or single phase repower and resale. The motor is 184T frame. I am concerned that, as I opened the drain, quite a bit of water drained, about 2 quarts. I am considering opening up the big inspection holes and just peeking in there to see how bad is the rust. The story of this compressor is that it was used at an auto shop, then the owner died, and it sat in the widow's garage for a while. That's what I was told anyway. The compresor runs fine, but I am concerned about the tank's integrity. I did not run it above 50 psi. Some more data. The compressor head is rated for 300 PSI (!). It is a bad ass head, very complicated. The tank is rated for 200 PSI. The emergency popoff valve is rated for 175 PSI. Air connections to the pressure control relay are complicated and one line's plastic fitting is broken. (hopefully no big deal that can be fixed with copper line). So, again, is it sane to try to open up the inspection hole? I tried doing it today and it just would not budge. I could make some makeshift tool, but perhaps there is something simple that I am missing. I need a square socket that would go into the hole on the plug. i |
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Ignoramus29516 writes:
I am concerned that, as I opened the drain, quite a bit of water drained, about 2 quarts. Why is that a concern? Every such tank is always filled with moist, condensing air when it is in use. I don't see why a puddle at the bottom should make that any more corrosive. |
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"Ignoramus29516" wrote in message
.. . | On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:11:22 -0700, Roger Shoaf wrote: | In CA compressed air tanks are required to undergo periodic inspection. The | inspector scraped a little paint off the tank, attached a small magnetic | sensor to the tank and took a reading. He said in the old days they had to | pull the inspection plugs, and use large, very expensive micrometers to | measure the wall thickness. | | Very interesting. What are these sensors called if I wanted to buy | one? I didn't realize you were that damn wealthy to be able to afford an ultrasonic thickness gauge! They start just below a grand and head up fast depending on what material you're trying to measure and so forth. You'd be money ahead to find a place that can do it for you. Don't know what kind of place that would be, but perhaps ask and industrial supply who uses them. |
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"Ignoramus29516" wrote in message
... SNIP | You'd be money ahead to find a place that can do it for you. Don't know | what kind of place that would be, but perhaps ask and industrial supply who | uses them. | | | Thanks Carl. I thought that the OP talked about some sort of magnetic | sensor, not ultrasound. | | i Oh, and if you want to, it might be worth having the inside of the tank sealed as well. You can have it done, radiators shops can do it, or you can buy kits from Eastwood and do it yourself. The DIY kit likely doesn't cost that much, either, relatively speaking. There are and were all kinds of sensors that do that sort of thing. Ultrasonic is the most accurate and most modern method nowadays. Out in my tool chest I have what's called a pit gauge, which is a cool tool for measuring the depth of a pit or depression, originally for the inside of a boiler. There's a lever that shows the pit depth is % for different thickness walls, in addition to the raw depth figure. You obviously have to be inside the boiler to use it, so I imagine it was a rather unpleasant job! The old boiler guys have little hammers they go around and ping on the walls and listen to the thickness of the vessel wall. That's a real skill! |
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 03:20:13 GMT, the opaque Ignoramus29516
clearly wrote: Thanks for the encouragement. The thought of a 100 gallon behemoth exploding next to me was disconcerting. While the compressor was sitting, the air valve was open, so some minimal amount of oxygen culd enter it through that. From everything I've ever read, tanks explode only when they're poorly welded and the safety shutoff valve isn't working so the compressor continues to run until total failure. All other failures I've read about happen via pinprick holes due to age/rust or from things falling on them, knocking bungs out of them, or puncturing them. I wouldn't worry about it, Iggy. Opening that peep hole will only allow you one more potential leak. Rustout is probably the safest failure mode you could have. Besides, if one did explode from a deweldment (izzat a word?), it would only blow the windows out of your house (and maybe your eardrums.) after a 2 or 3 atmosphere pressurization. - Inside every older person is a younger person wondering WTF happened. --- http://diversify.com Website Application Programming |
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Ignoramus29516 wrote:
... open up the inspection hole? I tried doing it today and it just would not budge. I could make some makeshift tool, ... I did that once. I made a clamp-on "wrench", with a long handle made of 1" Sch 40 pipe. When the pipe bent (!), I said "Screw it". Bob |
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In article ,
Ignoramus29516 wrote: On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:43:47 -0700, Grant Erwin wrote: Sure, it isn't good when water sits in the tank. But my venerable Quincy puked a good quart or two of rusty water several years ago when I got it going, and I figured one of these days I'd have to replace the tank. Well, it's been 5 years so far, it's holding up fine. Thanks. I must note that the day when it stops holding fine, could be the last day when we see your posts (hopefully that does not happen), so you won't be able to reach us from heavens and say, guys, on such and such a day my tank did go bad after all. Again, I am hoping that it does not happen to you or me. Usually rust makes pinholes that leak air long before there is any danger of a rupture. -- Free men own guns, slaves don't www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/ |
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"How big is your shop? You seem to buy stuff every day. "
Or he's one of the few who admits to it. ;) Iggy...I sure wish you would set your settings to retain your posts. You have generated some good discussions but after your contributions disappear, the discussions are worth much less for future readers looking for guidance. While we are on the topic of air compressor tanks rusting, why aren't air tanks coated internally after welding to protect them from rusting? TMT |
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On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 23:08:21 -0400, Waynemak wrote:
How big is your shop? You seem to buy stuff every day. I never let the size of my shop limit what I try to put in it! |
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:10:51 GMT, the opaque Ignoramus29118
clearly wrote: Thanks, Larry, Carl, and others. The compressor is working. I set it to cut in at 130 PSI and cut out at 160 PSI. My only problem is that there is a strange valve whose purpose I do not understand, and a plastic fitting witha plastic hose going to another plastic fitting, that became broken during transportation. On one side the fitting is 1/4", (I replaced it with 1/4" Home Depot fittings), but on another it looks like it may be metric. It works, but leaks air from a crack. So, I may need a fitting with metric thread and 1/8" barb. No idea where to find such a fitting. That's probably the head unloader, a valve which takes the pressure off the head when the tank has air in it and allows the compressor to start without blowing fuses/circuit breakers. Copper tubing might be a better fit for that purpose, but check with the mfgr. HF had a problem with their aluminum unloader tubes and reverted to copper. - Inside every older person is a younger person wondering WTF happened. --- http://diversify.com Website Application Programming |
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Ignoramus29118 wrote:
screw what I said, the salesman at homo depot ^^^^^^^^^^ It's pretty funny the way you guys think up nicknames for things you hate. Who was it who referred to their Sears Crapsman saw recently? :-) Chris |
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Christopher Tidy wrote:
Ignoramus29118 wrote: screw what I said, the salesman at homo depot ^^^^^^^^^^ It's pretty funny the way you guys think up nicknames for things you hate. Who was it who referred to their Sears Crapsman saw recently? :-) By the way, I have an off-topic question for the Americans. Out of curiousity, is the Sears where you buy your economy tools the same company which owns the Sears Tower in Chicago? Chris |
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SNIP
By the way, I have an off-topic question for the Americans. Out of curiousity, is the Sears where you buy your economy tools the same company which owns the Sears Tower in Chicago? Chris The same Sears built and occupied the Sears Tower originally, but they don't own it anymore...Not sure who does. Jeff PS. What the hell did they do with Roebuck ???? |
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Jeff Sellers wrote:
SNIP By the way, I have an off-topic question for the Americans. Out of curiousity, is the Sears where you buy your economy tools the same company which owns the Sears Tower in Chicago? Chris The same Sears built and occupied the Sears Tower originally, but they don't own it anymore...Not sure who does. Thanks - now I know! PS. What the hell did they do with Roebuck ???? Roebuck who sell trashy tools in England? I don't know much about them. I didn't think they had any kind of pedigree. Chris |
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"Jeff Sellers" wrote in message ... SNIP By the way, I have an off-topic question for the Americans. Out of curiousity, is the Sears where you buy your economy tools the same company which owns the Sears Tower in Chicago? Chris The same Sears built and occupied the Sears Tower originally, but they don't own it anymore...Not sure who does. Jeff PS. What the hell did they do with Roebuck ???? Roebuck is part of the Buck-Hickman group, now owned by Premier Farnell http://bhinone.farnell.com Martin. |
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:27:51 +0000 (UTC), the renowned Christopher
Tidy wrote: Christopher Tidy wrote: Ignoramus29118 wrote: screw what I said, the salesman at homo depot ^^^^^^^^^^ It's pretty funny the way you guys think up nicknames for things you hate. Who was it who referred to their Sears Crapsman saw recently? :-) By the way, I have an off-topic question for the Americans. Out of curiousity, is the Sears where you buy your economy tools the same company which owns the Sears Tower in Chicago? Chris It was developed for Sears Roebuck & Co, the department store guys It's currently owned by Metropolitan Life Insurance. Before that, it was owned by Trizec. I believe it's now #3 or #4 in height worldwide, after the really great-looking dual Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur, and the rather ugly Tapei 101 tower in Taiwan. The WTC replacement in NYC should trump all those ones, but perhaps not a few others that are in various stages of planning or construction. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany -- "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Martin Whybrow wrote:
"Jeff Sellers" wrote in message ... SNIP By the way, I have an off-topic question for the Americans. Out of curiousity, is the Sears where you buy your economy tools the same company which owns the Sears Tower in Chicago? Chris The same Sears built and occupied the Sears Tower originally, but they don't own it anymore...Not sure who does. Jeff PS. What the hell did they do with Roebuck ???? Roebuck is part of the Buck-Hickman group, now owned by Premier Farnell http://bhinone.farnell.com Martin. Ah, that would be why Farnell sell so much Roebuck stuff. Unfortunately I can't recommend it! Those wire cup brushes I had fall apart after a few minutes were one unsatisfactory Roebuck product. Chris |
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Spehro Pefhany wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:27:51 +0000 (UTC), the renowned Christopher Tidy wrote: Christopher Tidy wrote: Ignoramus29118 wrote: screw what I said, the salesman at homo depot ^^^^^^^^^^ It's pretty funny the way you guys think up nicknames for things you hate. Who was it who referred to their Sears Crapsman saw recently? :-) By the way, I have an off-topic question for the Americans. Out of curiousity, is the Sears where you buy your economy tools the same company which owns the Sears Tower in Chicago? Chris It was developed for Sears Roebuck & Co, the department store guys It's currently owned by Metropolitan Life Insurance. Before that, it was owned by Trizec. I believe it's now #3 or #4 in height worldwide, after the really great-looking dual Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur, and the rather ugly Tapei 101 tower in Taiwan. The WTC replacement in NYC should trump all those ones, but perhaps not a few others that are in various stages of planning or construction. Interesting. Thanks very much for the information. Chris |
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"Ignoramus29118" wrote in message ... | Oh, and if you want to, it might be worth having the inside of the tank | sealed as well. You can have it done, radiators shops can do it, or you can | buy kits from Eastwood and do it yourself. The DIY kit likely doesn't cost | that much, either, relatively speaking. | | Thanks. That's interesting. Do these kits actually work on used tanks? | You do have to clean the tank out really well. For doing gas tanks you rinse it out with soapy water first then load it up with crushed gravel or something similarly abrasive, a bunch of water, and allow it to move vigorously until the rocks have scraped away all the rust. Rinse out and repeat. For a compressor tank that could be a pretty big job! The kits have instructions about the application of the coating. I might have a concern if the coating could possibly come loose and wind up plugging the drain or air outlet. |
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 07:47:17 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote: Ignoramus29516 wrote: ... open up the inspection hole? I tried doing it today and it just would not budge. I could make some makeshift tool, ... I did that once. I made a clamp-on "wrench", with a long handle made of 1" Sch 40 pipe. When the pipe bent (!), I said "Screw it". Bob Chuckle...I tried that with my old tank last year. I put a 24" pipe wrench on the plug, and stuck a 8' chunk of Range One tubing on the wrench as a snip, knowing it was gonna be tight. Im 6' 2" talk, 210lbs and there I was, dangling from the end of that snipe, bouncing up and down as hard as I could. Nada. Nothing. I said screw it, too. G Gunner |
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"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message ... On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:27:51 +0000 (UTC), the renowned Christopher Tidy wrote: Christopher Tidy wrote: Ignoramus29118 wrote: screw what I said, the salesman at homo depot ^^^^^^^^^^ It's pretty funny the way you guys think up nicknames for things you hate. Who was it who referred to their Sears Crapsman saw recently? :-) By the way, I have an off-topic question for the Americans. Out of curiousity, is the Sears where you buy your economy tools the same company which owns the Sears Tower in Chicago? Chris It was developed for Sears Roebuck & Co, the department store guys It's currently owned by Metropolitan Life Insurance. Before that, it was owned by Trizec. I believe it's now #3 or #4 in height worldwide, after the really great-looking dual Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur, and the rather ugly Tapei 101 tower in Taiwan. The WTC replacement in NYC should trump all those ones, but perhaps not a few others that are in various stages of planning or construction. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Did you say Trump?? J |
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Christopher Tidy wrote:
Christopher Tidy wrote: Ignoramus29118 wrote: screw what I said, the salesman at homo depot ^^^^^^^^^^ It's pretty funny the way you guys think up nicknames for things you hate. Who was it who referred to their Sears Crapsman saw recently? :-) By the way, I have an off-topic question for the Americans. Out of curiousity, is the Sears where you buy your economy tools the same company which owns the Sears Tower in Chicago? Chris Actually K-mart owns the Sears tower and Sears. I think the Simpson-Sears was not part of the deal if it survived that long. Martin -- Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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Expensive!
"Ignoramus29516" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:11:22 -0700, Roger Shoaf wrote: In CA compressed air tanks are required to undergo periodic inspection. The inspector scraped a little paint off the tank, attached a small magnetic sensor to the tank and took a reading. He said in the old days they had to pull the inspection plugs, and use large, very expensive micrometers to measure the wall thickness. Very interesting. What are these sensors called if I wanted to buy one? |
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Gunner wrote:
On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 07:47:17 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote: Ignoramus29516 wrote: ... open up the inspection hole? I tried doing it today and it just would not budge. I could make some makeshift tool, ... I did that once. I made a clamp-on "wrench", with a long handle made of 1" Sch 40 pipe. When the pipe bent (!), I said "Screw it". Bob Chuckle...I tried that with my old tank last year. I put a 24" pipe wrench on the plug, and stuck a 8' chunk of Range One tubing on the wrench as a snip, knowing it was gonna be tight. Im 6' 2" talk, 210lbs and there I was, dangling from the end of that snipe, bouncing up and down as hard as I could. Nada. Nothing. I said screw it, too. G Gunner Years ago when I was a kid working in my dad's shop, the CA state guy came around to inspect the compressor tank. The inspection hole was 2" pipe I think.. He had a wrench that was flame cut from 3/4 plate with a square hole to fit the plug, about 12-14" long with a hammering face on the other end.. When that didn't budge it he had me fire up the torch and warm up the boss that the plug screwed in to.. a few whaps and the plug was out.. |
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"Martin Whybrow" wrote in message ... "Jeff Sellers" wrote in message ... SNIP By the way, I have an off-topic question for the Americans. Out of curiousity, is the Sears where you buy your economy tools the same company which owns the Sears Tower in Chicago? Chris The same Sears built and occupied the Sears Tower originally, but they don't own it anymore...Not sure who does. Jeff PS. What the hell did they do with Roebuck ???? Roebuck is part of the Buck-Hickman group, now owned by Premier Farnell http://bhinone.farnell.com Martin. I don't think the UK's Roebuck is the same as Sears Partner. ========================================= Sears History - 1887 Sears Settles in Chicago The following year, Sears moved his business to Chicago and inserted a classified ad in the Chicago Daily News. "WANTED: Watchmaker with reference who can furnish tools. State age, experience and salary required. ADDRESS T39, Daily News." Alvah Roebuck An Indiana lad, Alva C. Roebuck answered the ad. He told Sears he knew watches and brought a sample of his work to prove it. Sears hired him. Here began the association of two young men, both still in their twenties, that was to make their names famous. For it was in 1893 that the corporate name of the firm became Sears, Roebuck and Co. By the time Sears was started, farmers in rural America were selling their crops for cash and buying what they needed from rural general stores. But when they laid their money on the line for goods, farmers saw red. In 1891 the wholesale price of a barrel of flour was reported to be $3.47. Price at retail was at least $7, a 100 percent increase. Farmers formed protest movements, such as the Grange, to do battle against high prices and the "middleman." See sears history he http://www.searsarchives.com/history/history1887.htm -- Roger Shoaf About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then they come up with this striped stuff. |
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Spehro Pefhany wrote in
: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:27:51 +0000 (UTC), the renowned Christopher Tidy wrote: Christopher Tidy wrote: Ignoramus29118 wrote: screw what I said, the salesman at homo depot ^^^^^^^^^^ It's pretty funny the way you guys think up nicknames for things you hate. Who was it who referred to their Sears Crapsman saw recently? :-) By the way, I have an off-topic question for the Americans. Out of curiousity, is the Sears where you buy your economy tools the same company which owns the Sears Tower in Chicago? Chris It was developed for Sears Roebuck & Co, the department store guys It's currently owned by Metropolitan Life Insurance. Before that, it was owned by Trizec. I believe it's now #3 or #4 in height worldwide, after the really great-looking dual Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur, and the rather ugly Tapei 101 tower in Taiwan. The WTC replacement in NYC should trump all those ones, but perhaps not a few others that are in various stages of planning or construction. In my mind it's still the tallest. If you could put the worlds tallest buildings along side each other and were standing on the roof of the Sears tower, you could look down onto the roofs of the others. The Petronas has a "decorative spire" which makes it taller. The antennas on top of the Sears woul make it the tallest, but they don't count as they were not part of the original design. If you ever have the chance, take the tour. Especially on a day with high winds. There are new plans for a taller building in Chicago right now. It seems doubtful the economics will work out though. -- Dan |
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"Jeff Sellers" wrote in
: SNIP By the way, I have an off-topic question for the Americans. Out of curiousity, is the Sears where you buy your economy tools the same company which owns the Sears Tower in Chicago? Chris The same Sears built and occupied the Sears Tower originally, but they don't own it anymore...Not sure who does. Jeff PS. What the hell did they do with Roebuck ???? Don't know about Roebuck but Sears moved out to the 'burbs some time ago. The are in Hoffman Estates. They have an enormous place in Praire Stone right off of I-90. -- Dan |
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The kits have instructions about the application of the coating. I
might have a concern if the coating could possibly come loose and wind up plugging the drain or air outlet. Considering experiences that I had with paints that claimed to "chemically bond with rust", I was a little skeptical... Very true. I've never found a rust-eating paint which works miracles. The best I've found is "Vactan" rust treatment. Chris |
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#33
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Ignoramus9179 wrote:
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 11:51:17 +0000 (UTC), Christopher Tidy wrote: The kits have instructions about the application of the coating. I might have a concern if the coating could possibly come loose and wind up plugging the drain or air outlet. Considering experiences that I had with paints that claimed to "chemically bond with rust", I was a little skeptical... Very true. I've never found a rust-eating paint which works miracles. The best I've found is "Vactan" rust treatment. That sounds like a UK brand. What is that Vactan? I think it is a UK brand. I don't know if they sell it in the US. It contains something which reacts with the rust and turns it blue-black, and a resin which seals the surface, making it non-porous. I'm not sure exactly what it contains, but it isn't phosphoric acid based like many rust treatments. Do a Google search for "Vactan" or visit www.vactan.com. Chris |
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