Gots a small shop making mostly garden stuff for a landscaper. Do 95%
of my work with a MillerMatic 135, however the other day he threw some
4 x 4 .188 wall stuff my way. It took all the 135 had to weld it and
I'm still not real warm and fuzzy about the penetration. Here's my
delima...

I've got the dough to buy a MM210 and solve my concerns about not
having enough machine for the rare (very rare) occasion I do bigger
stuff. But, sitting in the back of my shop right now, is an old Sears
Crapsman A/C (only) stick machine of the 25 to 250 amp persuaion, I got
it for free for the taking, with about 100 pounds of various rod that
are many years old and been stored in open paper sacks.

I tried a project with it when I first got it, it turned out looking
like **** with all the spatter and slag balls from hell all over
everything. Granted it's got a hot arc and it'll warp the **** out of
stuff, but having used a clean, tidy MIG welder, a job that has to be
chipped and flap wheeled afterward is just unacceptable if you know
what I mean.

Do I try some new, fresh rod and blame the mess on the old rod, or do I
throw the A/C machine away and spring for the big MIG? I would
eventually like to get into aluminum trailer frames, so the MIG would
be beneficial, but honestly the 135 is still gonna be my main workhorse
regardless of what I do, as I make nearly all my stuff out of thin wall
material.

The lines are open, you be the judge...

Ronnie Lyons
Boise, Idaho

Ronnie wrote:
Gots a small shop making mostly garden stuff for a landscaper. Do 95%
of my work with a MillerMatic 135, however the other day he threw some
4 x 4 .188 wall stuff my way. It took all the 135 had to weld it and
I'm still not real warm and fuzzy about the penetration. Here's my
delima...

I've got the dough to buy a MM210 and solve my concerns about not
having enough machine for the rare (very rare) occasion I do bigger
stuff. But, sitting in the back of my shop right now, is an old Sears
Crapsman A/C (only) stick machine of the 25 to 250 amp persuaion, I got
it for free for the taking, with about 100 pounds of various rod that
are many years old and been stored in open paper sacks.

I tried a project with it when I first got it, it turned out looking
like **** with all the spatter and slag balls from hell all over
everything. Granted it's got a hot arc and it'll warp the **** out of
stuff, but having used a clean, tidy MIG welder, a job that has to be
chipped and flap wheeled afterward is just unacceptable if you know
what I mean.

Do I try some new, fresh rod and blame the mess on the old rod, or do I
throw the A/C machine away and spring for the big MIG? I would
eventually like to get into aluminum trailer frames, so the MIG would
be beneficial, but honestly the 135 is still gonna be my main workhorse
regardless of what I do, as I make nearly all my stuff out of thin wall
material.

The lines are open, you be the judge...

Ronnie Lyons
Boise, Idaho


You can do very nice work with an AC stick welder. I think you'll find
that 7014 or an AC7018 will do the job nicely without too much spatter.
Keep the arc as short as possible with either of those rods, you may
find the 7014 to be more agreeable at first but with some practice
you'll impress yourself with the 7018.

I'd think a 135 mig would do tube the size you mention but maybe it just
won't. Ernie always recommends a fluxcore for greater heat, that may be
all you need if you're not going to do anything heavier. Me, I'd just
use the stick welder..

John

"Ronnie" wrote in message
ups.com...
Gots a small shop making mostly garden stuff for a landscaper. Do 95%
of my work with a MillerMatic 135, however the other day he threw some
4 x 4 .188 wall stuff my way. It took all the 135 had to weld it and
I'm still not real warm and fuzzy about the penetration. Here's my
delima...

I've got the dough to buy a MM210 and solve my concerns about not
having enough machine for the rare (very rare) occasion I do bigger
stuff. But, sitting in the back of my shop right now, is an old Sears
Crapsman A/C (only) stick machine of the 25 to 250 amp persuaion, I got
it for free for the taking, with about 100 pounds of various rod that
are many years old and been stored in open paper sacks.

I tried a project with it when I first got it, it turned out looking
like **** with all the spatter and slag balls from hell all over
everything. Granted it's got a hot arc and it'll warp the **** out of
stuff, but having used a clean, tidy MIG welder, a job that has to be
chipped and flap wheeled afterward is just unacceptable if you know
what I mean.

Do I try some new, fresh rod and blame the mess on the old rod, or do I
throw the A/C machine away and spring for the big MIG? I would
eventually like to get into aluminum trailer frames, so the MIG would
be beneficial, but honestly the 135 is still gonna be my main workhorse
regardless of what I do, as I make nearly all my stuff out of thin wall
material.

The lines are open, you be the judge...

Ronnie Lyons
Boise, Idaho


Been there, done that, got the T shirt.

My solution was the Miller Thunderbolt. It will burn up to 1/8" rod, but it
will do outstanding work with 3/32" rods doing multipass.

I have always been a proponent of buying more machine than one needs.
Perhaps if you had gone with a 220v. wirefeed, it would do all you ask.

So, if you do buy a stick machine, buy ahead.

Now, the good news is that GOOD used machines can be had for GOOD prices.

Steve

"Ronnie" wrote in message
ups.com...
Gots a small shop making mostly garden stuff for a landscaper. Do 95%
of my work with a MillerMatic 135, however the other day he threw some
4 x 4 .188 wall stuff my way. It took all the 135 had to weld it and
I'm still not real warm and fuzzy about the penetration. Here's my
delima...

I've got the dough to buy a MM210 and solve my concerns about not
having enough machine for the rare (very rare) occasion I do bigger
stuff. But, sitting in the back of my shop right now, is an old Sears
Crapsman A/C (only) stick machine of the 25 to 250 amp persuaion, I got
it for free for the taking, with about 100 pounds of various rod that
are many years old and been stored in open paper sacks.

I tried a project with it when I first got it, it turned out looking
like **** with all the spatter and slag balls from hell all over
everything. Granted it's got a hot arc and it'll warp the **** out of
stuff, but having used a clean, tidy MIG welder, a job that has to be
chipped and flap wheeled afterward is just unacceptable if you know
what I mean.

Do I try some new, fresh rod and blame the mess on the old rod, or do I
throw the A/C machine away and spring for the big MIG? I would
eventually like to get into aluminum trailer frames, so the MIG would
be beneficial, but honestly the 135 is still gonna be my main workhorse
regardless of what I do, as I make nearly all my stuff out of thin wall
material.

The lines are open, you be the judge...

Ronnie Lyons
Boise, Idaho



Keep the stick for doing repairs on dirty, rusty metal. Buy a good MIG if
you plan on doing fabrication using new metal.
Greg

Keep that stick machine and just use 6013. It is easy to use and not too
much flux to get you in trouble with entrapment.
3/16th inch material and up is ideal for the stick. The machine is very low
maintenance. It quietly sits there consuming no bottle rental or gas. When
you use it you only have the cost of the rods.
Randy

"Ronnie" wrote in message
ups.com...
Gots a small shop making mostly garden stuff for a landscaper. Do 95%
of my work with a MillerMatic 135, however the other day he threw some
4 x 4 .188 wall stuff my way. It took all the 135 had to weld it and
I'm still not real warm and fuzzy about the penetration. Here's my
delima...

I've got the dough to buy a MM210 and solve my concerns about not
having enough machine for the rare (very rare) occasion I do bigger
stuff. But, sitting in the back of my shop right now, is an old Sears
Crapsman A/C (only) stick machine of the 25 to 250 amp persuaion, I got
it for free for the taking, with about 100 pounds of various rod that
are many years old and been stored in open paper sacks.

I tried a project with it when I first got it, it turned out looking
like **** with all the spatter and slag balls from hell all over
everything. Granted it's got a hot arc and it'll warp the **** out of
stuff, but having used a clean, tidy MIG welder, a job that has to be
chipped and flap wheeled afterward is just unacceptable if you know
what I mean.

Do I try some new, fresh rod and blame the mess on the old rod, or do I
throw the A/C machine away and spring for the big MIG? I would
eventually like to get into aluminum trailer frames, so the MIG would
be beneficial, but honestly the 135 is still gonna be my main workhorse
regardless of what I do, as I make nearly all my stuff out of thin wall
material.

The lines are open, you be the judge...

Ronnie Lyons
Boise, Idaho

Sounds like your rod flux has absorbed moisture which will cause severe
spattering. Try drying the rod in a hot [450 F.] oven for 24 hrs.
Industrial shops keep all their rod in a drying oven at the job site.
It will make a world of difference.
Bugs

I vote for new rod. You already have the stick welder, take an hour or
two to learn how to use it and you will be in business. Not sure what
rod to suggest for AC, I use DC, but your local welding shop will sell
you a box fairly cheaply. For Less than $20 you will be ready for heavy
fabrication, and your Mig is good for light fabrication.

Note that 6011 is the AC rod for maximum penetration, while other rods
will make cleaner looking welds. I use 6010 (DC only) and 6013 for my
fabrication, whenever I can't use my TIG.

Richard



Ronnie wrote:

Gots a small shop making mostly garden stuff for a landscaper. Do 95%
of my work with a MillerMatic 135, however the other day he threw some
4 x 4 .188 wall stuff my way. It took all the 135 had to weld it and
I'm still not real warm and fuzzy about the penetration. Here's my
delima...

I've got the dough to buy a MM210 and solve my concerns about not
having enough machine for the rare (very rare) occasion I do bigger
stuff. But, sitting in the back of my shop right now, is an old Sears
Crapsman A/C (only) stick machine of the 25 to 250 amp persuaion, I got
it for free for the taking, with about 100 pounds of various rod that
are many years old and been stored in open paper sacks.

I tried a project with it when I first got it, it turned out looking
like **** with all the spatter and slag balls from hell all over
everything. Granted it's got a hot arc and it'll warp the **** out of
stuff, but having used a clean, tidy MIG welder, a job that has to be
chipped and flap wheeled afterward is just unacceptable if you know
what I mean.

Do I try some new, fresh rod and blame the mess on the old rod, or do I
throw the A/C machine away and spring for the big MIG? I would
eventually like to get into aluminum trailer frames, so the MIG would
be beneficial, but honestly the 135 is still gonna be my main workhorse
regardless of what I do, as I make nearly all my stuff out of thin wall
material.

The lines are open, you be the judge...

Ronnie Lyons
Boise, Idaho

On 4 Aug 2005 20:17:30 -0700, "Ronnie" wrote:

Gots a small shop making mostly garden stuff for a landscaper. Do 95%
of my work with a MillerMatic 135, however the other day he threw some
4 x 4 .188 wall stuff my way. It took all the 135 had to weld it and
I'm still not real warm and fuzzy about the penetration. Here's my
delima...

I've got the dough to buy a MM210 and solve my concerns about not
having enough machine for the rare (very rare) occasion I do bigger
stuff. But, sitting in the back of my shop right now, is an old Sears
Crapsman A/C (only) stick machine of the 25 to 250 amp persuaion, I got
it for free for the taking, with about 100 pounds of various rod that
are many years old and been stored in open paper sacks.

I tried a project with it when I first got it, it turned out looking
like **** with all the spatter and slag balls from hell all over
everything. Granted it's got a hot arc and it'll warp the **** out of
stuff, but having used a clean, tidy MIG welder, a job that has to be
chipped and flap wheeled afterward is just unacceptable if you know
what I mean.

Do I try some new, fresh rod and blame the mess on the old rod, or do I
throw the A/C machine away and spring for the big MIG? I would
eventually like to get into aluminum trailer frames, so the MIG would
be beneficial, but honestly the 135 is still gonna be my main workhorse
regardless of what I do, as I make nearly all my stuff out of thin wall
material.

The lines are open, you be the judge...

Ronnie Lyons
Boise, Idaho

The stick welder will work. But a larger MIG is going to save a lot of
chipping and brushing time if you're doing any volume at all. When I
switched from a small 220V MIG to a larger model, I chose this one
http://www.techair.com/acrobat%20fil...ic/K1693-1.pdf.
The digital readouts allow precise repeatable settings, which is a
worthwhile convenience for my use. If there's a welding supply place
near you that has one on display, you might compare the 255's wire
drive mechanism with some other models. Bring your checkbook. ;-)

Wayne

Your MillerMatic 135 should be able to do the job with flux core wire. I
welded some .25 wall tube and plate with my Lincoln 135 with flux core
just last week. I'm a mere novice, but I couldn't break the welds with a
BFH.

Flux core will leave spatter and slag, but not as much as stick. It
cleans up (mostly) with a wire brush.

--
Ron DeBlock N2JSO
If God had meant for Man to see the sunrise,
He would have scheduled it later in the day.

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 00:17:15 GMT, Ron DeBlock
wrote:

Your MillerMatic 135 should be able to do the job with flux core wire. I
welded some .25 wall tube and plate with my Lincoln 135 with flux core
just last week. I'm a mere novice, but I couldn't break the welds with a
BFH.

Flux core will leave spatter and slag, but not as much as stick. It
cleans up (mostly) with a wire brush.

Actually with some care it can do it with hard wire. But there's a
few tricks to it. I do up to 1/4" with mine fairly regularly though I
won't use it for ultra critical life threatening welds at 1/4". I do
however trust it at 3/16". There's two critical things that do need
observed at this thickness.

One is that you must have nothing smaller than 10ga wire running from
the breaker to the welder. Anything smaller (and long runs of that
size) will cause enough voltage drop to prevent the welder from
putting out all it's capable of.

The other thing is to cut the feed speed back a bit. I know it
doesn't follow the rules but it does work.

I believe there's at least two if not more factors that causes this
to work. One is that the slower feed doesn't cause the voltage to pull
down as much thus you've got more voltage to melt the base metal
available. Two is it gives the base metal time to melt compared to
running in the normal speed.

Faster wire feed ups the amperage alright but it also does two other
things which cause this type of weld to fail IMHO. One is that the
heavier amperage draw causes these small welders to droop in voltage.
The other is that the bead is building so fast that the base metal
doesn't have time to heat up. The slower feed seems to solve these
problems.

I've got a 500 amp MIG and Stick available as well as a 300 amp TIG
but I still use the little Millermatic 135 for jobs like this just
because it's easier and quicker to use.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

Good advice for some types of rod, bad advice for others. This would be
marginal for some types of low hydrogen rod, disaster for the cellulose
rods. The OP does not know what kind of rod he has.

Bugs wrote:
Sounds like your rod flux has absorbed moisture which will cause severe
spattering. Try drying the rod in a hot [450 F.] oven for 24 hrs.
Industrial shops keep all their rod in a drying oven at the job site.
It will make a world of difference.
Bugs

What Randy said about using 6013. Spray the surface with anti spatter to
make clean up easier.

That said, it will take some practice to get good welds. Figure several
hours adn several pounds of rod for practice on scrap plate.

Randy Zimmerman wrote:

Keep that stick machine and just use 6013. It is easy to use and not too
much flux to get you in trouble with entrapment.
3/16th inch material and up is ideal for the stick. The machine is very low
maintenance. It quietly sits there consuming no bottle rental or gas. When
you use it you only have the cost of the rods.
Randy

"Ronnie" wrote in message
ups.com...

Gots a small shop making mostly garden stuff for a landscaper. Do 95%
of my work with a MillerMatic 135, however the other day he threw some
4 x 4 .188 wall stuff my way. It took all the 135 had to weld it and
I'm still not real warm and fuzzy about the penetration. Here's my
delima...

I've got the dough to buy a MM210 and solve my concerns about not
having enough machine for the rare (very rare) occasion I do bigger
stuff. But, sitting in the back of my shop right now, is an old Sears
Crapsman A/C (only) stick machine of the 25 to 250 amp persuaion, I got
it for free for the taking, with about 100 pounds of various rod that
are many years old and been stored in open paper sacks.

I tried a project with it when I first got it, it turned out looking
like **** with all the spatter and slag balls from hell all over
everything. Granted it's got a hot arc and it'll warp the **** out of
stuff, but having used a clean, tidy MIG welder, a job that has to be
chipped and flap wheeled afterward is just unacceptable if you know
what I mean.

Do I try some new, fresh rod and blame the mess on the old rod, or do I
throw the A/C machine away and spring for the big MIG? I would
eventually like to get into aluminum trailer frames, so the MIG would
be beneficial, but honestly the 135 is still gonna be my main workhorse
regardless of what I do, as I make nearly all my stuff out of thin wall
material.

The lines are open, you be the judge...

Ronnie Lyons
Boise, Idaho

I'll chip in (no pun intended on the side of using the stick machine. The
problems that you describe certainly may have to do with old rod, but may
also have to do with technique if (as it sounds from your description) you
have not done a lot of stick welding. Let me be the first to admit that I'm
no expert -- I've been welding for about two years, all of it using AC-only
stick except for some time in a class trying out other processes. I haven't
used an old Crapsman welder, but I'd bet it could turn out some mighty nice
welds. Certainly my 50+ year old Marquette does a beautiful job.

Stick gets a bad rap for having a lot of splatter and having to chip slag,
but I have found that as my experience has grown and my technique has
improved, splatter has become less and less of an issue, and more and more
often the slag just pops right off. (Let me qualify that: the slag from 6011
doesn't just pop off, and it tends to create somewhat more splatter, but on
the other hand I tend to use it more for root passes when there are fitup
issues.) The two keys in my experience are getting the correct heat and
keeping the rod tip at the right distance and angle to the work. Too little
heat not only makes it hard to start the rod, but also is more likely to
leave you with slag inclusions in a corner. On the other hand, too much heat
creates lots of hard-to-separate splatter, and either one can make the slag
much harder to chip off. Likewise, keeping the rod tip too far away creates
lots and lots of splatter and makes the slag a bear to try to chip away.
Erratic rod movement can also trap slag and cause problems. (By the way--you
are dragging the rod rather than pushing it, right? The opposite of what you
do with MIG.)

FWIW, every single person I have taught to stick weld tends to hold way too
long of an arc at first; it takes a while to get the hang of keeping the tip
right at the weld without sticking it. The one thing that improved my
welding overnight was learning how to brace my arm properly so that I could
move the rod tip smoothly along the path with the tip right where it needs
to be.

Yeah, I know -- why go to all the trouble to learn stick when MIG is so much
more forgiving? Your choice, of course; the MM210 will certainly be a fine
machine. But as another poster has pointed out, the stick machine isn't
costing you anything, and even if you get the MM210, you'll still be able to
weld much thicker steel with the stick machine. (Consider that I routinely
weld 1/4" steel running under 100 amps ... I haven't even begun to approach
using 150 amps, much less the 275 that my machine can do. I'll have to wait
for the battleship project to make use of that!) And for me personally, I
just enjoy the challenge of stick welding--when I took a class, TIG was my
number one favorite, stick was next, and MIG was my least favorite, simply
because it seemed to be the easiest--but then again, I'm doing this strictly
as a hobby, not in a production environment! (And yes, I know--MIG welding
is not necessarily as easy as it may seem to do it really right.)

As for the old rod, are there any markings on it? If it is 6011, 6013, or
7014, and the flux looks to be intact (no flaking, etc.), I'd probably hold
onto it. You might want to get some fresh rod to practice on. Once you are
confident in your technique, you can try the old rod to see if it performs
okay.

My .02 ...

Andy

"Ronnie" wrote in message
ups.com...
Gots a small shop making mostly garden stuff for a landscaper. Do 95%
of my work with a MillerMatic 135, however the other day he threw some
4 x 4 .188 wall stuff my way. It took all the 135 had to weld it and
I'm still not real warm and fuzzy about the penetration. Here's my
delima...

I've got the dough to buy a MM210 and solve my concerns about not
having enough machine for the rare (very rare) occasion I do bigger
stuff. But, sitting in the back of my shop right now, is an old Sears
Crapsman A/C (only) stick machine of the 25 to 250 amp persuaion, I got
it for free for the taking, with about 100 pounds of various rod that
are many years old and been stored in open paper sacks.

I tried a project with it when I first got it, it turned out looking
like **** with all the spatter and slag balls from hell all over
everything. Granted it's got a hot arc and it'll warp the **** out of
stuff, but having used a clean, tidy MIG welder, a job that has to be
chipped and flap wheeled afterward is just unacceptable if you know
what I mean.

Do I try some new, fresh rod and blame the mess on the old rod, or do I
throw the A/C machine away and spring for the big MIG? I would
eventually like to get into aluminum trailer frames, so the MIG would
be beneficial, but honestly the 135 is still gonna be my main workhorse
regardless of what I do, as I make nearly all my stuff out of thin wall
material.

The lines are open, you be the judge...

Ronnie Lyons
Boise, Idaho

On 4 Aug 2005 20:17:30 -0700, "Ronnie" wrote:

Gots a small shop making mostly garden stuff for a landscaper. Do 95%
of my work with a MillerMatic 135, however the other day he threw some
4 x 4 .188 wall stuff my way. It took all the 135 had to weld it and
I'm still not real warm and fuzzy about the penetration. Here's my
delima...

I've got the dough to buy a MM210 and solve my concerns about not
having enough machine for the rare (very rare) occasion I do bigger
stuff. But, sitting in the back of my shop right now, is an old Sears
Crapsman A/C (only) stick machine of the 25 to 250 amp persuaion, I got
it for free for the taking, with about 100 pounds of various rod that
are many years old and been stored in open paper sacks.

I tried a project with it when I first got it, it turned out looking
like **** with all the spatter and slag balls from hell all over
everything. Granted it's got a hot arc and it'll warp the **** out of
stuff, but having used a clean, tidy MIG welder, a job that has to be
chipped and flap wheeled afterward is just unacceptable if you know
what I mean.

Do I try some new, fresh rod and blame the mess on the old rod, or do I
throw the A/C machine away and spring for the big MIG? I would
eventually like to get into aluminum trailer frames, so the MIG would
be beneficial, but honestly the 135 is still gonna be my main workhorse
regardless of what I do, as I make nearly all my stuff out of thin wall
material.

The lines are open, you be the judge...

The 135 will do .188 wall steel with fluxcore just fine, though
dutycycle will be somewhat limited and it's a bit slow.

Stick works well, but any stick will require some slag chipping.
Fluxcore isn't as clean as MIG, but considerably cleaner than stick.

If you tried a Millermatic 210, I think you'd own one pretty quick.
Its range is from 22 gage (.032") to 3/8" steel. I've found it very
easy to weld 1/16" wall thickness conduit with it, haven't tried it
yet on thinner stock. In addition, it is MUCH easier to weld
out-of-position with MIG (the 210) than with stick.

The 135 may be a better machine for very thin stock like 24-gage
autobody sheetmetal.

The smaller 220 volt machines would also well serve your needs for
steel to 1/4" or 5/16", but would lack the migration path to
aluminum. If you see aluminum in your future, go for the 210.