Usually I can figure this stuff out myself, but I don't see the answer
here and never had occasion to do it before.

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one circuit
breaker. What holds them in?

I think my box is pretty standard. There are busses for the two legs of
220 down the middle and some kind of clamp strips down the outsides that
holds the CBs.

Hope that is enough info for an answer.

Kind of a tight fit on most, but the outer (wire connection) side of
the breaker usually has a little space in it for a metal leg to slide
into, then the breaker is rotated in toward the center of the box and
pressed into place. To remove, the end of the breaker close to the
center of the box will have to be pulled out toward you a bit to get
it loose from the buss bar, then can be "un-hooked" from the metal tab
on the other end.
HTH
Ken.

I've got a squareD and cutler hameer that both work the same. Don't know
anything about other boxes...

The breaker just snaps in place. Kinda rotates around the outside round bar
clip. THe inside clip pushes into the electrical bus last or pry it out here
first. DISCONNECT THE TOP MAIN FIRST.

Maybe get your replacement so you can see it first.

Karl


"xray" wrote in message
...

Usually I can figure this stuff out myself, but I don't see the answer
here and never had occasion to do it before.

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one circuit
breaker. What holds them in?

I think my box is pretty standard. There are busses for the two legs of
220 down the middle and some kind of clamp strips down the outsides that
holds the CBs.

Hope that is enough info for an answer.

SOME boxes in older homes use "Pushmatic" breakers. These are held in with
a screw. And the screw is, as I recall, hot. So, regardless of the type of
breaker, turn off the main before you try removing it.


"xray" wrote in message
...

Usually I can figure this stuff out myself, but I don't see the answer
here and never had occasion to do it before.

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one circuit
breaker. What holds them in?

I think my box is pretty standard. There are busses for the two legs of
220 down the middle and some kind of clamp strips down the outsides that
holds the CBs.

Hope that is enough info for an answer.

There are two types of breakers - Snap in and screw in. Most
residential breakers are push in without the holding screw/

Both types come out by pulling out on the outside edge of the
breaker. The very best thing would be to go to Home Depot or some
such and actually push one in and out on a new, fresh. DEAD panel.

(top posted for your convenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"xray" wrote in message
...

Usually I can figure this stuff out myself, but I don't see the
answer
here and never had occasion to do it before.

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one
circuit
breaker. What holds them in?

I think my box is pretty standard. There are busses for the two
legs of
220 down the middle and some kind of clamp strips down the
outsides that
holds the CBs.

Hope that is enough info for an answer.

xray wrote:
Usually I can figure this stuff out myself, but I don't see the answer
here and never had occasion to do it before.

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one circuit
breaker. What holds them in?
Spring pressure. Turn breaker off. Remove wire after loosening clamp
screw. Pull breaker out from the middle of box, where the two rows
almost touch. The outer edge of the breakers hook onto an edge and
hinge from there.

Jon

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:37:24 GMT, "Jerry Foster"
wrote:
"xray" wrote in message
.. .

Usually I can figure this stuff out myself, but I don't see the answer
here and never had occasion to do it before.

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one circuit
breaker. What holds them in?

I think my box is pretty standard. There are busses for the two legs of
220 down the middle and some kind of clamp strips down the outsides that
holds the CBs.

Hope that is enough info for an answer.

Tell us the brand of the panel and the models of the breakers, and
we can easily answer the question. Or stick a picture up somewhere.

Most modern breakers plug straight onto the two rows of buss stabs
in the middle of the panel, and they have hooks on the outboard side
to keep them in the panel. Cutler Hammer CH and "Challenger" or
"Bryant" BR, Crouse Hinds/ Murray/ Siemens MP QP, GE THQP THQL,
SquareD Homeline, etc.

The hooks are 'coded' in some panels, and the buss stabs notched to
reject double breakers in a large 42-breaker panel. And some brands
have other odd rejection methods, like the pins in the back of some
FPE panels that fit in holes in the back of the right breakers, and
all their odd buss stab plug patterns.

Square D "QO" has two spring clips, one for the hot buss, one for
the locating rail. Except for some of the old QOT tandem breakers
that use a metal hook for the locating rail, restricting them from
being used in certain Non-CTL panels. (Keeps you from going over 42
poles in a panel.)

Same two-clip design with the antique SquareD and Cutler-Hammer XO
design breakers - if you have an XO panel, plan to change it. You are
NOT going to find replacement breakers for anything approaching a
reasonable price, and they're going to be used take-outs.

SOME boxes in older homes use "Pushmatic" breakers. These are held in with
a screw. And the screw is, as I recall, hot. So, regardless of the type of
breaker, turn off the main before you try removing it.

True, though bolt-on breakers other than ITE Pushmatic are usually
found in industrial panels. It's legal if they have 'walked home from
the plant' and been installed in houses, but finding replacement
breakers is a supply-house-only pain in the ass. You usually find a B
in the part number as a good clue.

If you have nerves of steel you can change bolt-on breakers with the
panel hot - though you need to take proper precautions like using
insulated tools, cardboard or plastic to isolate open hot stuff that
can be blocked off, and a screw-grabber screwdriver to avoid dropping
the screw into hot areas - they're JUST long enough to cause shorts if
they land in the wrong place.

And you can /not/ trust any screw retaining washers or devices used
on bolt-on breaker line tabs 100%, they sometimes don't retain the
screw when called on, with potentially disastrous results. You
usually see the thin retainer tab under the screw on original
Pushmatics.

In other words, if you don't do this stuff every day, take the safe
route and turn power off to the panel before poking around inside -
and get a Wiggy so you can be assured it's really dead.

I even turn stuff off if I think something is seriously wrong inside
- like the supports are broken or burned, and hot parts might spring
together and short out when I take the breaker out.

Discretion in electrical work is the better part of being able to
count to 10 without taking off a shoe. (Or counting stumps.)

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:37:24 GMT, "Jerry Foster"
wrote:
"xray" wrote in message
.. .

snip

SOME boxes in older homes use "Pushmatic" breakers. These are held in
with
a screw. And the screw is, as I recall, hot. So, regardless of the type
of
breaker, turn off the main before you try removing it.

True, though bolt-on breakers other than ITE Pushmatic are usually
found in industrial panels. It's legal if they have 'walked home from
the plant' and been installed in houses, but finding replacement
breakers is a supply-house-only pain in the ass. You usually find a B
in the part number as a good clue.


Back in the '50s, Pardee Homes built tract houses that used Pushmatics in
the
original construction. And they didn't have a main cutoff! The only way to
kill
the panel power was to pull the meter head. (I used to own such a house in
San
Diego...) And a friend in San Jose had a house with Pushmatics, but that
looked
like a re-wire job from probably 40 years ago. I assume they are fairly
common
in these areas because the local hardware stores carry replacement breakers.

Jerry

Type F, as in Federal Pacific or Federal Pioneer panel? If so, your
work may just be beginning. Apparently, the Federal breakers will not
reliably trip on overload. Don't know about replacements manufacturered
by other companies. You might want to do a search of the internet
with keywords "Federal Pacific breaker" or something similar.

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:59:35 -0700, footy wrote:

Type F, as in Federal Pacific or Federal Pioneer panel? If so, your
work may just be beginning. Apparently, the Federal breakers will not
reliably trip on overload. Don't know about replacements manufacturered
by other companies. You might want to do a search of the internet
with keywords "Federal Pacific breaker" or something similar.

New ones are apparently OK - it is just after years of use they
degrade. From what my dad, a retired "sparky" says, anyway.

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:56:21 GMT, "Jerry Foster"
wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:37:24 GMT, "Jerry Foster"
wrote:

SOME boxes in older homes use "Pushmatic" breakers. These are held in
with a screw. And the screw is, as I recall, hot. So, regardless of
the type of breaker, turn off the main before you try removing it.

True, though bolt-on breakers other than ITE Pushmatic are usually
found in industrial panels. It's legal if they have 'walked home from
the plant' and been installed in houses, but finding replacement
breakers is a supply-house-only pain in the ass. You usually find a B
in the part number as a good clue.

Back in the '50s, Pardee Homes built tract houses that used Pushmatics in
the original construction. And they didn't have a main cutoff! The only
way to killthe panel power was to pull the meter head. (I used to own
such a house in San Diego...) And a friend in San Jose had a house with
Pushmatics, but that looked like a re-wire job from probably 40 years ago.
I assume they are fairly common in these areas because the local hardware.
stores carry replacement breakers.

There were several varieties of no-Main panels built, including the
Zinsco "Crowfoot" panel, so named for the odd main busses that looked
like two crows feet branching from the meter socket to the three
breakers on that side. And they need the Q breakers with a screw
input tab on the LINE side, no new ones are being made.

The trick is that by NEC Codes you are limited to six fuses or
breaker poles without a main disconnect in the panel. And the
Crowfoot design got you only one true 240V common-trip breaker in the
middle. The only legal way to add extra circuits is a sub-panel.

These panels are great for billboards or guard houses, but six poles
will be full in no time flat in anything bigger than Ted "UnaBomber"
Kaczynski's one-room tarpaper shack in the woods....

But try telling that to someone who stuck another breaker in the
blank spot at each end of the panel and rigged wire jumpers to the
LINE side crowfeet to heat them up.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

my house was built in '47, in southern CA - it was a cheap house at the
time, I presume. when I bought it, it had the original breaker panel - that
panel had two breaker assemblies, each contained a single 15 and a single 20
amp breaker with one input (screw terminal) and two output terminals - that
was it - In 47, I suppose they didn't use much juice? anyway, one day the
20 amp side of one of them started to trip at about 6 amps (e.g. when I
turned on my microwave), so I pulled it out (there was no main breaker, and
you couldn't pull the meter either, it wasn't in a socket and still isn't) -
I knew I was in trouble when I took the thing to the local good hardware
store and they looked at it and said "what's that?".
I believe my house was typical of those in this area, although I may be the
only homeowner who here who does his own wiring work today.



Back in the '50s, Pardee Homes built tract houses that used Pushmatics in
the original construction. And they didn't have a main cutoff! The only
way to killthe panel power was to pull the meter head. (I used to own
such a house in San Diego...) And a friend in San Jose had a house with
Pushmatics, but that looked like a re-wire job from probably 40 years ago.
I assume they are fairly common in these areas because the local hardware.
stores carry replacement breakers.

There were several varieties of no-Main panels built, including the
Zinsco "Crowfoot" panel, so named for the odd main busses that looked
like two crows feet branching from the meter socket to the three
breakers on that side. And they need the Q breakers with a screw
input tab on the LINE side, no new ones are being made.

The trick is that by NEC Codes you are limited to six fuses or
breaker poles without a main disconnect in the panel. And the
Crowfoot design got you only one true 240V common-trip breaker in the
middle. The only legal way to add extra circuits is a sub-panel.

These panels are great for billboards or guard houses, but six poles
will be full in no time flat in anything bigger than Ted "UnaBomber"
Kaczynski's one-room tarpaper shack in the woods....

t.

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:01:23 GMT, xray
wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:42:42 GMT, xray
wrote:

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one circuit
breaker. What holds them in?


Thanks to everyone for the replies.

Once I understood that they pull out on the bus bar side, I easily got
it out. Went to Home Depot and discovered that I needed a type-F but
they didn't seem to have any. Orchard supply did have what I needed.

Yikes! A 2-pole 50A breaker costs about twice what I would have guessed.

So with the advice gained here I got my project under control.

Type F? As in FPE - Federal Pacific Electric / Federal Pioneer
Electric (Canada)? If that's the panel you have in the house, change
out the main service or panel as soon as possible. There is a large
body of evidence leading to the conclusion that continued use is not
safe. In my opinion, I would call circuit breakers that can jam into
a condition where they will not trip under any level of short-circuit
overload "a big problem".

I am serious, this isn't an "emergency" but should be done when you
can. Call your local power utility for a 'meter spotting' to see if
they want you to move the service entrance or go underground, make
your plans (Okay, pencil sketches), pull the permit if you need one,
and get the materials together for a panel change. Wait for the
weather to be nice, pick a day, and do it.

Don't take my word for it - go do some Googling around on it, but
start at http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...e~20050530.php
http://www.greatinspector.com/faq-elec-fed-pacif.html
http://www.cornerstone-inspection.com/fpe.html
http://www.codecheck.com/FPE_breakers.htm

Nobody is willing or able to force a recall - since the original
company went bust, and the CPSC got their ass handed to them by Alcoa
over aluminum house wiring so they didn't want another drubbing. And
American Breaker who makes replacement FPE breakers of course is
discounting all the talk about problems as baseless... But the basic
conclusion remains: IMHO FPE panels are junk that needs to be pulled
from service, especially at the first signs of trouble.

And there must be something behind it, there are some property
insurance companies making panel replacement a condition of issuing
insurance, they're having to rip out panels 50 at a time at condos.

There is some evidence that Federal Pacific faked their UL Rating
testing for the breaker trips and general durability for service, and
the entire line has been delisted. (But what Reliance Electric found
about that is in sealed court records.) The breakers show a nasty
habit of failing to trip on overload or jamming to where they can
never trip, and the panel and busbar designs are a stinker - the
panels meltdown in a failure. On some panel designs they run 200 Amps
from the Main through an 8-32 screw to the main buss.

Whenever I hear multiple credible reports of stuff like this, I
worry. You should NEVER have a breaker fail to trip on an overload of
200% or more, or on a bolted fault short. But this appears to happen
to a large sample of FPE breakers found in use in the field.

The generic Korean replacement breakers sold in the hardware store
are even worse - the retail stores should be held liable for selling
equipment in the US that is not UL-listed, but the management must
feel that Ignorance Is Bliss.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:39:54 -0400,
wrote:
On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:59:35 -0700, footy wrote:

Type F, as in Federal Pacific or Federal Pioneer panel? If so, your
work may just be beginning. Apparently, the Federal breakers will not
reliably trip on overload. Don't know about replacements manufacturered
by other companies. You might want to do a search of the internet
with keywords "Federal Pacific breaker" or something similar.

New ones are apparently OK - it is just after years of use they
degrade. From what my dad, a retired "sparky" says, anyway.

This is a point of contention in the industry. All the replacement
breakers I've seen (both the American Breaker "OEM" replacements and
the Taiwan copies) are duplicated mold and tooling knock-offs of the
original, not redesigned to increase the reliability even though they
have reason to know there is a problem.

I suspect that if you put the brand-new parts through the same
testing, they would be failing at the same rates - I would do it
myself but I don't have the testing equipment.

Bad design is bad design, making new 'duplicate' copies of a bad
design does not make it any better. If anything, copies made by
people who don't understand how minute changes in materials, sloppy
tolerances or wear on the tooling affects the end product can make
them even worse.

And the Taiwan folks can churn out the junk and sleep at night
knowing they can't be sued for product liability because the laws are
lax to non-existent, no matter how faulty the product...

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Aluminum INPUT wires are not a big problem, they are quite common. Just
use the special non corroding grease when installing and crank the bolts
down to the specified torque. If you want to change these to copper, the
copper wire is one size smaller so you can sometimes get an upgrade in
capacity through the same conduit.

Aluminum wiring to the outlets is the BIG problem, several cures, best
is full remove and replace.

But it does sound like a new service panel and/or service entrance is in
your future. Most codes allow this as a do it yourself job but make sure
you have some GOOD advice before you tackle it.

xray wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 06:57:57 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


Type F? As in FPE - Federal Pacific Electric / Federal Pioneer
Electric (Canada)? If that's the panel you have in the house, change
out the main service or panel as soon as possible. There is a large
body of evidence leading to the conclusion that continued use is not
safe. In my opinion, I would call circuit breakers that can jam into
a condition where they will not trip under any level of short-circuit
overload "a big problem".



Arrgh!

Yes, this is exactly the stuff that is in my house.

For a while I have been thinking about getting better input current
rating, but I think this will be a major pain because the input wires
run through a conduit under a slab poured for my living room. To make
this bad situation worse, the input feed wires are aluminum.

Geez, what a pleasure to learn that the whole electrical system in my
house (other than the copper wires to the outlets) is crap.

I already know I must have a new roof this year. Now I learn I really
should consider complete new electrics too.

How delightful. But thanks for enlightening me on the subject. Guess I
should pass the basics of this information on to my neighbors. We all
must be living in a realm of danger.

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 12:34:12 GMT, xray
wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 06:57:57 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

Type F? As in FPE - Federal Pacific Electric / Federal Pioneer
Electric (Canada)? If that's the panel you have in the house, change
out the main service or panel as soon as possible. There is a large
body of evidence leading to the conclusion that continued use is not
safe. In my opinion, I would call circuit breakers that can jam into
a condition where they will not trip under any level of short-circuit
overload "a big problem".

Arrgh!
Yes, this is exactly the stuff that is in my house.

Builders liked FPE equipment - it was really cheap to buy, and every
buck they can save adds to the profit... Good for them, bad for you.

For a while I have been thinking about getting better input current
rating, but I think this will be a major pain because the input wires
run through a conduit under a slab poured for my living room. To make
this bad situation worse, the input feed wires are aluminum.

That you can't get away from - those wires belong to the power
utility, they supply and maintain them, and are responsible when they
go bad. You only own the conduit from the house to the property line,
pullbox at the street, or the base of the pole.

The utility can pull larger wires through the existing conduit if
you want to upgrade the panel, no need to tear up the house slab.
You're supposed to use 2" conduit for 200A feed wire, but they might
let you use 1-1/2 if that's what is there - call them and ask. But if
you want to bump it to a 400A, that's going to take a bigger conduit.

(They usually cheat, using smaller wire than you have to, because
they're the utility and they can... You land 3/0 CU THHN for 200A
output, they use 2/0 AL XLPE XHHW and reduced neutral to the pole.)

And inside the house, AL wire is still legal for single-point runs
like to the air conditioner, water heater, range outlet, sub-panel
main feed, etc. The breaker and the load lug at the other end
(disconnect switch or receptacle) must meet the new CO-ALR ratings,
and the wires must be properly cleaned and coated with NOALOX compound
at both ends.

I won't install AL wire myself inside a house unless the customer is
informed and still insists because of price (It's their house...), and
outside "Bronco Wire" AL aerial drop wire runs to outbuildings only
because that's all you can buy.

Geez, what a pleasure to learn that the whole electrical system in my
house (other than the copper wires to the outlets) is crap.

What, you want I should blow smoke up your ass, tell you it's all a
bed of roses, and leave you fat dumb and happy - until something goes
seriously wrong?

Knowledge is power, and I'm not afraid to share.

The only thing I have to do is be careful to use lots of 'wiggle
words' like "In My Opinion" because the breakers and panels are not
all bad, there's no rock-hard proof to say something like that, and
there are still corporations involved (selling replacement breakers)
with a large financial vested interest in this not becoming a panic
situation or a huge recall.

(FredRogers Can you say 'Lawsuit'? Knew you could.)

The important thing is to get the panels out of service as they age
and deteriorate. Hopefully catching them before they self-destruct.

I already know I must have a new roof this year. Now I learn I really
should consider complete new electrics too.

How delightful. But thanks for enlightening me on the subject. Guess I
should pass the basics of this information on to my neighbors. We all
must be living in a realm of danger.

It's not an imminent danger, do not panic - but if you or the
neighbors have a FPE panel you do have to be aware that there is a
problem. And get any odd electrical happenings like dimming lights,
humming or buzzing sounds (wires vibrating in the walls at 60HZ from a
large overload), unusual appliance operation, odd toasty burnt
bakelite or tar smells... checked out ASAP.

And when the local electrician says "It's Fine..." have him take out
the breakers, pop out the main buss and /really/ check it over, front
and back - the stuff that 'goes melty' is buried deep inside.

Buy yourself an Infrared Non-Contact Thermometer, they're down to
below $100 and a very handy tool to have around - I love mine for
confirming suspicions. If the house is 68F, and a monitoring scan
finds that most of the panel guts are around 75F - 80F but there's a
hot spot inside the panel or on a breaker coming up at 275F, you found
a problem.

The metallic breaker box /should/ keep any fires inside the box and
not allow it to spread, but there are no absolute guarantees in life.
The piece of equipment at the other end might go FWOOSH!, but UL
design rules apply there too.

If your roof is really that bad, it has to get done first (and while
the weather is nice) and the panel can wait a while. You can't put on
a new roof in the middle of a storm, but the panel is inside or can be
sheltered.

But I'd strongly suggest that you do all the planning and pre-prep
for the panel change, and get all the stuff you need bought and in a
neat pile in the basement. You have time to order in the panel you
really want. You can even upgrade the bedroom circuits to Arc-Fault
breakers to meet the latest codes, AFCI's aren't available for
discontinued panels.

The equipment is only a few hundred bucks, even with all new
breakers - and if the old panel goes bad you are ready to go -now-.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 14:18:03 GMT, RoyJ wrote:

Aluminum INPUT wires are not a big problem, they are quite common. Just
use the special non corroding grease when installing and crank the bolts
down to the specified torque. If you want to change these to copper, the
copper wire is one size smaller so you can sometimes get an upgrade in
capacity through the same conduit.

Aluminum wiring to the outlets is the BIG problem, several cures, best
is full remove and replace.

A Vietnamese friend of mine asked me to come over and check out a
problem that he had with the wiring in his house. (I carried a
California C7-C10 for 16 yrs). Half the house was dead. I found all
the wiring in the house was aluminum. BRRRRRRR! At this point I knew
he was in trouble and recommended a current residential electrician.
Some hours later the electrician found an outdoors outlet had all the
wiring in it burned away, causing the 60's vintage house (4 breakers)
to loose power in the damnedest places. Split level, flat roof, on a
slab. No crawl space, no attic. I think he is going after the real
estate agent.....

Gunner


But it does sound like a new service panel and/or service entrance is in
your future. Most codes allow this as a do it yourself job but make sure
you have some GOOD advice before you tackle it.

xray wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 06:57:57 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


Type F? As in FPE - Federal Pacific Electric / Federal Pioneer
Electric (Canada)? If that's the panel you have in the house, change
out the main service or panel as soon as possible. There is a large
body of evidence leading to the conclusion that continued use is not
safe. In my opinion, I would call circuit breakers that can jam into
a condition where they will not trip under any level of short-circuit
overload "a big problem".



Arrgh!

Yes, this is exactly the stuff that is in my house.

For a while I have been thinking about getting better input current
rating, but I think this will be a major pain because the input wires
run through a conduit under a slab poured for my living room. To make
this bad situation worse, the input feed wires are aluminum.

Geez, what a pleasure to learn that the whole electrical system in my
house (other than the copper wires to the outlets) is crap.

I already know I must have a new roof this year. Now I learn I really
should consider complete new electrics too.

How delightful. But thanks for enlightening me on the subject. Guess I
should pass the basics of this information on to my neighbors. We all
must be living in a realm of danger.


"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

"Gunner" wrote in message
A Vietnamese friend of mine asked me to come over and check out a
problem that he had with the wiring in his house. (I carried a
California C7-C10 for 16 yrs). Half the house was dead. I found all
the wiring in the house was aluminum. BRRRRRRR! At this point I knew
he was in trouble and recommended a current residential electrician.
Some hours later the electrician found an outdoors outlet had all the
wiring in it burned away, causing the 60's vintage house (4 breakers)
to loose power in the damnedest places. Split level, flat roof, on a
slab. No crawl space, no attic. I think he is going after the real
estate agent.....

Gunner

I lived in a house that had aluminum wiring and I too had a problem with
wires burned at a outlet. Scared the hell out of me. I then went around
looking at every outlet, switch and ceiling light I could find and tightened
the screws. Some of them were very loose. Glad when I moved out.

Lane

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:22:31 -0700, "Lane" lane (no spam) at
copperaccents dot com wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
A Vietnamese friend of mine asked me to come over and check out a
problem that he had with the wiring in his house. (I carried a
California C7-C10 for 16 yrs). Half the house was dead. I found all
the wiring in the house was aluminum. BRRRRRRR! At this point I knew
he was in trouble and recommended a current residential electrician.
Some hours later the electrician found an outdoors outlet had all the
wiring in it burned away, causing the 60's vintage house (4 breakers)
to loose power in the damnedest places. Split level, flat roof, on a
slab. No crawl space, no attic. I think he is going after the real
estate agent.....

I lived in a house that had aluminum wiring and I too had a problem with
wires burned at a outlet. Scared the hell out of me. I then went around
looking at every outlet, switch and ceiling light I could find and tightened
the screws. Some of them were very loose. Glad when I moved out.

If you find a house that has aluminum romex to the branch circuit
outlets and lights, the only safe solution is to call a specially
trained electrician and have all the outlets pigtailed. They use
special compression connectors and tooling that Tyco/AMP only leases,
never sells. I don't do it, and considering the numbers I heard
thrown around for training ($800) and monthly tool lease (lots), I
don't want to. (And I bet that you'd need a special liability
insurance for doing it, too, in case you screw up.) You'd have to
have a crew doing nothing but aluminum pigtailing all day, every day
to make it pay.

Or rip it all out and rewire with copper. ($$$) Tightening the
screws on the devices is NOT going to do it - the whole problem is
expansion and cold flow, and the connections self-loosen and start
arcing and overheating, creating a vicious cycle.

Myself, I vote for the rip-out all the AL wire and rewire with CU.
It's the only way to be sure you've got it all.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Sat, 4 Jun 2005 22:59:52 -0700, "william_b_noble"
wrote:

my house was built in '47, in southern CA - it was a cheap house at the
time, I presume. when I bought it, it had the original breaker panel - that
panel had two breaker assemblies, each contained a single 15 and a single 20
amp breaker with one input (screw terminal) and two output terminals - that
was it - In 47, I suppose they didn't use much juice? anyway, one day the
20 amp side of one of them started to trip at about 6 amps (e.g. when I
turned on my microwave), so I pulled it out (there was no main breaker, and
you couldn't pull the meter either, it wasn't in a socket and still isn't) -
I knew I was in trouble when I took the thing to the local good hardware
store and they looked at it and said "what's that?".
I believe my house was typical of those in this area, although I may be the
only homeowner who here who does his own wiring work today.



Up here in Ontario Canad, MOST houses had fused panels well up into
the early seventies - and some later. Mine has a 200 amp fused panel -
can't remember how many circuits - but it has "pull-outs" with 2 fuses
each - come of which have latched"doors" on them so you have to pull
them to change fuses. These are for "split" circuits or 220 circuits.
Also has 4 "cartridge" pullouts for things like stove, drier, AC, etc.

One advantage to fuses is there are no "nuisance trips". And they are
readilly available anywhere.

Back in the '50s, Pardee Homes built tract houses that used Pushmatics in
the original construction. And they didn't have a main cutoff! The only
way to killthe panel power was to pull the meter head. (I used to own
such a house in San Diego...) And a friend in San Jose had a house with
Pushmatics, but that looked like a re-wire job from probably 40 years ago.
I assume they are fairly common in these areas because the local hardware.
stores carry replacement breakers.

There were several varieties of no-Main panels built, including the
Zinsco "Crowfoot" panel, so named for the odd main busses that looked
like two crows feet branching from the meter socket to the three
breakers on that side. And they need the Q breakers with a screw
input tab on the LINE side, no new ones are being made.

The trick is that by NEC Codes you are limited to six fuses or
breaker poles without a main disconnect in the panel. And the
Crowfoot design got you only one true 240V common-trip breaker in the
middle. The only legal way to add extra circuits is a sub-panel.

These panels are great for billboards or guard houses, but six poles
will be full in no time flat in anything bigger than Ted "UnaBomber"
Kaczynski's one-room tarpaper shack in the woods....

t.

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 14:18:03 GMT, RoyJ wrote:

Aluminum INPUT wires are not a big problem, they are quite common. Just
use the special non corroding grease when installing and crank the bolts
down to the specified torque. If you want to change these to copper, the
copper wire is one size smaller so you can sometimes get an upgrade in
capacity through the same conduit.

Aluminum wiring to the outlets is the BIG problem, several cures, best
is full remove and replace.

Or simply replace ALL outlets and switches with CoAlr rated devices.
Except for the VERY early production aluminum wiring (which will break
if you so much as look at it crosswise) the wiring itself is NOT a
problem - only the terminations.
The earlier CuAl rated devices should NEVER have been approved - and a
"push-in" type device is NEVER to be trusted on non-copper conductors.
My house is 32 years old now, wired with aluminum (second generation)
and has not had a sigle connection problem to date. I have had a few
outlets basically wear out - to the point plugs don't want to stay in,
and they then tend to arc and warm up internally - so I've started
replacing all with CoAlr devices. Significantly cheaper for each
device than the special wire nuts required to "pig tail" all the
wiring with copper, and with the advantage you are not adding another
pair of connections to go bad at each device.
The insurance companies are requiring inspection of all aluminum wired
homes before new coverage is issued - and are reccomending the
"pig-tail" route. The CoAlr devices are not generally stocked by the
"home center" or hardware stores, but are stocked by the better
electrical supply outlets. In my case I bought them in "case lots" of
10 each, at a cost equivalent to just less than 1.5 wire nuts per
device.
My dad, a retired electrician, cringes at the pigtails because the
boxes are generally too full when finished to be safe, in his
judgement. The aluminum wiring generally has to be bent to too short a
radius to tuck all the wires and the device into the box.

Rewiring my 2 story 1300 sq foot(more or less) home with copper would
run several thousand dollars (possibly as high as 10) - and the
original cost to wire it when new was under $800 complete with panel
and all lighting fixtures!! Replacing all devices will total
significantly less than $100 and a few hours of my time.

But it does sound like a new service panel and/or service entrance is in
your future. Most codes allow this as a do it yourself job but make sure
you have some GOOD advice before you tackle it.

xray wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 06:57:57 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


Type F? As in FPE - Federal Pacific Electric / Federal Pioneer
Electric (Canada)? If that's the panel you have in the house, change
out the main service or panel as soon as possible. There is a large
body of evidence leading to the conclusion that continued use is not
safe. In my opinion, I would call circuit breakers that can jam into
a condition where they will not trip under any level of short-circuit
overload "a big problem".



Arrgh!

Yes, this is exactly the stuff that is in my house.

For a while I have been thinking about getting better input current
rating, but I think this will be a major pain because the input wires
run through a conduit under a slab poured for my living room. To make
this bad situation worse, the input feed wires are aluminum.

Geez, what a pleasure to learn that the whole electrical system in my
house (other than the copper wires to the outlets) is crap.

I already know I must have a new roof this year. Now I learn I really
should consider complete new electrics too.

How delightful. But thanks for enlightening me on the subject. Guess I
should pass the basics of this information on to my neighbors. We all
must be living in a realm of danger.

wrote in
:
snip
I have had a few
outlets basically wear out - to the point plugs don't want to stay in,
and they then tend to arc and warm up internally - so I've started
replacing all with CoAlr devices. Significantly cheaper for each
device than the special wire nuts required to "pig tail" all the
wiring with copper, and with the advantage you are not adding another
pair of connections to go bad at each device.

Interesting. I work for an electrical supply/contractor shop. We were
quoted around $4 for aluminum rated receptacles by our wholesaler.
Marr #63 copper to aluminum rated wire nuts are only around 40 cents
each.

http://www.tnb-
canada.com/en/catalogues/online/comresconstruction/pdf/c5/09
_marrcat_e.pdf

(that link probably is going to be wrapped)

The insurance companies are requiring inspection of all aluminum wired
homes before new coverage is issued - and are reccomending the
"pig-tail" route.

Insurance companies are being a real pain lately WRT wiring. The latest
thing is not insuring houses with less than 100A services. Apparently
your house is more likely to catch fire if you have a 60A service. It
could be a completely modern, still in production 60A breaker panel
retrofit a few years ago to get rid of the ancient 4ct fuse panel in your
60 year old house or a tiny house built just a couple years ago but now
you can't get insurance. Pfft.

For houses with aluminum wire they have been asking for an "inspection"
but it takes us quite a while to pull out of them exactly what they want
inspected. Do we pull apart every single box to see that the devies are
CoAlr rated? Do we check a random sample? A random sample has been
acceptable to most. That seems silly. One retrofit Cu only receptacle
somewhere in the house that you don't catch could still overheat and burn
the place down. But it was inspected...

My dad, a retired electrician, cringes at the pigtails because the
boxes are generally too full when finished to be safe, in his
judgement. The aluminum wiring generally has to be bent to too short a
radius to tuck all the wires and the device into the box.
snip

Usually there is already a splice in the box, unless they've used the two
screws on receptacles to feed through to the rest of a circuit. You can
just remove the existing wire nut and restrip and replace with a copper
pigtail, Marr 63 nut and a reguar Cu device. Box fill should be fine
unless it's a tiny box. They don't allow us to feed through receptacles
anymore, pigtails are required if the circuit continues on so we're stuck
with using them - might as well be copper.

Mike