Usually I can figure this stuff out myself, but I don't see the answer
here and never had occasion to do it before.

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one circuit
breaker. What holds them in?

I think my box is pretty standard. There are busses for the two legs of
220 down the middle and some kind of clamp strips down the outsides that
holds the CBs.

Hope that is enough info for an answer.

Kind of a tight fit on most, but the outer (wire connection) side of
the breaker usually has a little space in it for a metal leg to slide
into, then the breaker is rotated in toward the center of the box and
pressed into place. To remove, the end of the breaker close to the
center of the box will have to be pulled out toward you a bit to get
it loose from the buss bar, then can be "un-hooked" from the metal tab
on the other end.
HTH
Ken.

I've got a squareD and cutler hameer that both work the same. Don't know
anything about other boxes...

The breaker just snaps in place. Kinda rotates around the outside round bar
clip. THe inside clip pushes into the electrical bus last or pry it out here
first. DISCONNECT THE TOP MAIN FIRST.

Maybe get your replacement so you can see it first.

Karl


"xray" wrote in message
...

Usually I can figure this stuff out myself, but I don't see the answer
here and never had occasion to do it before.

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one circuit
breaker. What holds them in?

I think my box is pretty standard. There are busses for the two legs of
220 down the middle and some kind of clamp strips down the outsides that
holds the CBs.

Hope that is enough info for an answer.

SOME boxes in older homes use "Pushmatic" breakers. These are held in with
a screw. And the screw is, as I recall, hot. So, regardless of the type of
breaker, turn off the main before you try removing it.


"xray" wrote in message
...

Usually I can figure this stuff out myself, but I don't see the answer
here and never had occasion to do it before.

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one circuit
breaker. What holds them in?

I think my box is pretty standard. There are busses for the two legs of
220 down the middle and some kind of clamp strips down the outsides that
holds the CBs.

Hope that is enough info for an answer.

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:37:24 GMT, "Jerry Foster"
wrote:
"xray" wrote in message
.. .

Usually I can figure this stuff out myself, but I don't see the answer
here and never had occasion to do it before.

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one circuit
breaker. What holds them in?

I think my box is pretty standard. There are busses for the two legs of
220 down the middle and some kind of clamp strips down the outsides that
holds the CBs.

Hope that is enough info for an answer.

Tell us the brand of the panel and the models of the breakers, and
we can easily answer the question. Or stick a picture up somewhere.

Most modern breakers plug straight onto the two rows of buss stabs
in the middle of the panel, and they have hooks on the outboard side
to keep them in the panel. Cutler Hammer CH and "Challenger" or
"Bryant" BR, Crouse Hinds/ Murray/ Siemens MP QP, GE THQP THQL,
SquareD Homeline, etc.

The hooks are 'coded' in some panels, and the buss stabs notched to
reject double breakers in a large 42-breaker panel. And some brands
have other odd rejection methods, like the pins in the back of some
FPE panels that fit in holes in the back of the right breakers, and
all their odd buss stab plug patterns.

Square D "QO" has two spring clips, one for the hot buss, one for
the locating rail. Except for some of the old QOT tandem breakers
that use a metal hook for the locating rail, restricting them from
being used in certain Non-CTL panels. (Keeps you from going over 42
poles in a panel.)

Same two-clip design with the antique SquareD and Cutler-Hammer XO
design breakers - if you have an XO panel, plan to change it. You are
NOT going to find replacement breakers for anything approaching a
reasonable price, and they're going to be used take-outs.

SOME boxes in older homes use "Pushmatic" breakers. These are held in with
a screw. And the screw is, as I recall, hot. So, regardless of the type of
breaker, turn off the main before you try removing it.

True, though bolt-on breakers other than ITE Pushmatic are usually
found in industrial panels. It's legal if they have 'walked home from
the plant' and been installed in houses, but finding replacement
breakers is a supply-house-only pain in the ass. You usually find a B
in the part number as a good clue.

If you have nerves of steel you can change bolt-on breakers with the
panel hot - though you need to take proper precautions like using
insulated tools, cardboard or plastic to isolate open hot stuff that
can be blocked off, and a screw-grabber screwdriver to avoid dropping
the screw into hot areas - they're JUST long enough to cause shorts if
they land in the wrong place.

And you can /not/ trust any screw retaining washers or devices used
on bolt-on breaker line tabs 100%, they sometimes don't retain the
screw when called on, with potentially disastrous results. You
usually see the thin retainer tab under the screw on original
Pushmatics.

In other words, if you don't do this stuff every day, take the safe
route and turn power off to the panel before poking around inside -
and get a Wiggy so you can be assured it's really dead.

I even turn stuff off if I think something is seriously wrong inside
- like the supports are broken or burned, and hot parts might spring
together and short out when I take the breaker out.

Discretion in electrical work is the better part of being able to
count to 10 without taking off a shoe. (Or counting stumps.)

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:37:24 GMT, "Jerry Foster"
wrote:
"xray" wrote in message
.. .

snip

SOME boxes in older homes use "Pushmatic" breakers. These are held in
with
a screw. And the screw is, as I recall, hot. So, regardless of the type
of
breaker, turn off the main before you try removing it.

True, though bolt-on breakers other than ITE Pushmatic are usually
found in industrial panels. It's legal if they have 'walked home from
the plant' and been installed in houses, but finding replacement
breakers is a supply-house-only pain in the ass. You usually find a B
in the part number as a good clue.


Back in the '50s, Pardee Homes built tract houses that used Pushmatics in
the
original construction. And they didn't have a main cutoff! The only way to
kill
the panel power was to pull the meter head. (I used to own such a house in
San
Diego...) And a friend in San Jose had a house with Pushmatics, but that
looked
like a re-wire job from probably 40 years ago. I assume they are fairly
common
in these areas because the local hardware stores carry replacement breakers.

Jerry

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:56:21 GMT, "Jerry Foster"
wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 14:37:24 GMT, "Jerry Foster"
wrote:

SOME boxes in older homes use "Pushmatic" breakers. These are held in
with a screw. And the screw is, as I recall, hot. So, regardless of
the type of breaker, turn off the main before you try removing it.

True, though bolt-on breakers other than ITE Pushmatic are usually
found in industrial panels. It's legal if they have 'walked home from
the plant' and been installed in houses, but finding replacement
breakers is a supply-house-only pain in the ass. You usually find a B
in the part number as a good clue.

Back in the '50s, Pardee Homes built tract houses that used Pushmatics in
the original construction. And they didn't have a main cutoff! The only
way to killthe panel power was to pull the meter head. (I used to own
such a house in San Diego...) And a friend in San Jose had a house with
Pushmatics, but that looked like a re-wire job from probably 40 years ago.
I assume they are fairly common in these areas because the local hardware.
stores carry replacement breakers.

There were several varieties of no-Main panels built, including the
Zinsco "Crowfoot" panel, so named for the odd main busses that looked
like two crows feet branching from the meter socket to the three
breakers on that side. And they need the Q breakers with a screw
input tab on the LINE side, no new ones are being made.

The trick is that by NEC Codes you are limited to six fuses or
breaker poles without a main disconnect in the panel. And the
Crowfoot design got you only one true 240V common-trip breaker in the
middle. The only legal way to add extra circuits is a sub-panel.

These panels are great for billboards or guard houses, but six poles
will be full in no time flat in anything bigger than Ted "UnaBomber"
Kaczynski's one-room tarpaper shack in the woods....

But try telling that to someone who stuck another breaker in the
blank spot at each end of the panel and rigged wire jumpers to the
LINE side crowfeet to heat them up.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

my house was built in '47, in southern CA - it was a cheap house at the
time, I presume. when I bought it, it had the original breaker panel - that
panel had two breaker assemblies, each contained a single 15 and a single 20
amp breaker with one input (screw terminal) and two output terminals - that
was it - In 47, I suppose they didn't use much juice? anyway, one day the
20 amp side of one of them started to trip at about 6 amps (e.g. when I
turned on my microwave), so I pulled it out (there was no main breaker, and
you couldn't pull the meter either, it wasn't in a socket and still isn't) -
I knew I was in trouble when I took the thing to the local good hardware
store and they looked at it and said "what's that?".
I believe my house was typical of those in this area, although I may be the
only homeowner who here who does his own wiring work today.



Back in the '50s, Pardee Homes built tract houses that used Pushmatics in
the original construction. And they didn't have a main cutoff! The only
way to killthe panel power was to pull the meter head. (I used to own
such a house in San Diego...) And a friend in San Jose had a house with
Pushmatics, but that looked like a re-wire job from probably 40 years ago.
I assume they are fairly common in these areas because the local hardware.
stores carry replacement breakers.

There were several varieties of no-Main panels built, including the
Zinsco "Crowfoot" panel, so named for the odd main busses that looked
like two crows feet branching from the meter socket to the three
breakers on that side. And they need the Q breakers with a screw
input tab on the LINE side, no new ones are being made.

The trick is that by NEC Codes you are limited to six fuses or
breaker poles without a main disconnect in the panel. And the
Crowfoot design got you only one true 240V common-trip breaker in the
middle. The only legal way to add extra circuits is a sub-panel.

These panels are great for billboards or guard houses, but six poles
will be full in no time flat in anything bigger than Ted "UnaBomber"
Kaczynski's one-room tarpaper shack in the woods....

t.

There are two types of breakers - Snap in and screw in. Most
residential breakers are push in without the holding screw/

Both types come out by pulling out on the outside edge of the
breaker. The very best thing would be to go to Home Depot or some
such and actually push one in and out on a new, fresh. DEAD panel.

(top posted for your convenience)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"xray" wrote in message
...

Usually I can figure this stuff out myself, but I don't see the
answer
here and never had occasion to do it before.

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one
circuit
breaker. What holds them in?

I think my box is pretty standard. There are busses for the two
legs of
220 down the middle and some kind of clamp strips down the
outsides that
holds the CBs.

Hope that is enough info for an answer.

xray wrote:
Usually I can figure this stuff out myself, but I don't see the answer
here and never had occasion to do it before.

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one circuit
breaker. What holds them in?
Spring pressure. Turn breaker off. Remove wire after loosening clamp
screw. Pull breaker out from the middle of box, where the two rows
almost touch. The outer edge of the breakers hook onto an edge and
hinge from there.

Jon

Type F, as in Federal Pacific or Federal Pioneer panel? If so, your
work may just be beginning. Apparently, the Federal breakers will not
reliably trip on overload. Don't know about replacements manufacturered
by other companies. You might want to do a search of the internet
with keywords "Federal Pacific breaker" or something similar.

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:59:35 -0700, footy wrote:

Type F, as in Federal Pacific or Federal Pioneer panel? If so, your
work may just be beginning. Apparently, the Federal breakers will not
reliably trip on overload. Don't know about replacements manufacturered
by other companies. You might want to do a search of the internet
with keywords "Federal Pacific breaker" or something similar.

New ones are apparently OK - it is just after years of use they
degrade. From what my dad, a retired "sparky" says, anyway.

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:39:54 -0400,
wrote:
On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 18:59:35 -0700, footy wrote:

Type F, as in Federal Pacific or Federal Pioneer panel? If so, your
work may just be beginning. Apparently, the Federal breakers will not
reliably trip on overload. Don't know about replacements manufacturered
by other companies. You might want to do a search of the internet
with keywords "Federal Pacific breaker" or something similar.

New ones are apparently OK - it is just after years of use they
degrade. From what my dad, a retired "sparky" says, anyway.

This is a point of contention in the industry. All the replacement
breakers I've seen (both the American Breaker "OEM" replacements and
the Taiwan copies) are duplicated mold and tooling knock-offs of the
original, not redesigned to increase the reliability even though they
have reason to know there is a problem.

I suspect that if you put the brand-new parts through the same
testing, they would be failing at the same rates - I would do it
myself but I don't have the testing equipment.

Bad design is bad design, making new 'duplicate' copies of a bad
design does not make it any better. If anything, copies made by
people who don't understand how minute changes in materials, sloppy
tolerances or wear on the tooling affects the end product can make
them even worse.

And the Taiwan folks can churn out the junk and sleep at night
knowing they can't be sued for product liability because the laws are
lax to non-existent, no matter how faulty the product...

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:01:23 GMT, xray
wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 09:42:42 GMT, xray
wrote:

In the electric box that feeds my house, I want to replace one circuit
breaker. What holds them in?


Thanks to everyone for the replies.

Once I understood that they pull out on the bus bar side, I easily got
it out. Went to Home Depot and discovered that I needed a type-F but
they didn't seem to have any. Orchard supply did have what I needed.

Yikes! A 2-pole 50A breaker costs about twice what I would have guessed.

So with the advice gained here I got my project under control.

Type F? As in FPE - Federal Pacific Electric / Federal Pioneer
Electric (Canada)? If that's the panel you have in the house, change
out the main service or panel as soon as possible. There is a large
body of evidence leading to the conclusion that continued use is not
safe. In my opinion, I would call circuit breakers that can jam into
a condition where they will not trip under any level of short-circuit
overload "a big problem".

I am serious, this isn't an "emergency" but should be done when you
can. Call your local power utility for a 'meter spotting' to see if
they want you to move the service entrance or go underground, make
your plans (Okay, pencil sketches), pull the permit if you need one,
and get the materials together for a panel change. Wait for the
weather to be nice, pick a day, and do it.

Don't take my word for it - go do some Googling around on it, but
start at http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarch...e~20050530.php
http://www.greatinspector.com/faq-elec-fed-pacif.html
http://www.cornerstone-inspection.com/fpe.html
http://www.codecheck.com/FPE_breakers.htm

Nobody is willing or able to force a recall - since the original
company went bust, and the CPSC got their ass handed to them by Alcoa
over aluminum house wiring so they didn't want another drubbing. And
American Breaker who makes replacement FPE breakers of course is
discounting all the talk about problems as baseless... But the basic
conclusion remains: IMHO FPE panels are junk that needs to be pulled
from service, especially at the first signs of trouble.

And there must be something behind it, there are some property
insurance companies making panel replacement a condition of issuing
insurance, they're having to rip out panels 50 at a time at condos.

There is some evidence that Federal Pacific faked their UL Rating
testing for the breaker trips and general durability for service, and
the entire line has been delisted. (But what Reliance Electric found
about that is in sealed court records.) The breakers show a nasty
habit of failing to trip on overload or jamming to where they can
never trip, and the panel and busbar designs are a stinker - the
panels meltdown in a failure. On some panel designs they run 200 Amps
from the Main through an 8-32 screw to the main buss.

Whenever I hear multiple credible reports of stuff like this, I
worry. You should NEVER have a breaker fail to trip on an overload of
200% or more, or on a bolted fault short. But this appears to happen
to a large sample of FPE breakers found in use in the field.

The generic Korean replacement breakers sold in the hardware store
are even worse - the retail stores should be held liable for selling
equipment in the US that is not UL-listed, but the management must
feel that Ignorance Is Bliss.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.