While in LA Friday afternoon, I stopped in at a customers place on a
"cold call", while on my way home. The owner noticed I was pulling my
trailer and asked if I would be interested in hauling off a lathe and
a drill press......

The upshot was, I saved a Rivett 918 second ops lathe, on factory
cabinet, with drawers full of tooling, including a full set of dead
length (push out) 7R collets, 3 jaw etc etc, from the scrappers. The
old girl is actually in pretty nice shape and has a cross slide
feature Ive never seen before. It has an in and out movement of course
and a second lever that moves the tool holder towards and away
parallel to the spindle for fast turning. Way cool. Turret filled with
tooling as well. G

But..alas..its missing the collet closer assembly at the ass end of
the spindle. It came with 3 manuals, diagrams, wiring, exploded
diagrams, factory catalogs, etc G so I can see what is supposed to
be there. The guys at the shop said they thought it was all there, and
would search...but...shrug..when stuff like this is removed..it always
winds up permanantly missing.

Anyone know of a Rivett 918 that has a "rotary chuck closer" I could
salvage? This unit has a lever that rotates upwared or downwards to
open/close the collet, rather than the normal push-pull collet closer.

Of course, Id be interested in swapping for other Rivett parts and
pieces that would fit this old girl.

Anyone need scans of the documentation, Id be happy to scan and email
or copy and snail mail. May take a bit of doing as there are quite a
number of pages. Some of it is pretty rough. Shrug.


Oh..the drill press. Rebuilt AND repainted REAL US iron, Rockwell
floor model with 3/4" hp 3ph motor. MT2 taper. Double T slots on a
decent sized table.

When I asked why they were dumping it..I was told after it was
rebuilt, no one could make it run,...electrical issues..so it went
into storage for Someday..and someday never came.

So today I moved it into the shop, got out a meter and a gallon of
sweat (95F in the shop) and started futzing around with it. I found
they had miss wired the motor badly.and had neglected to wire up the
mag starter correctly. There were a pair of wires coming out of the
bottom of the mag starter box that had been cut off.. Since there was
no off/on switch anywhere on the head..I surmised that it was for a
foot switch (missing). As I do have a couple kicking around (pun
intended), I wired one up and sure as shooting..it runs just dandy.
Quiet too for a big drill press.
Clockspring is wound a bit too tight..bottoms out when in full
extension of the quill..so Ill fix that next. Ive got it temporarily
wired, and will clean up the wiring over the coming holiday,
liquid-tite, etc. Its missing the cover for the mag starter
though..sigh..thats going to be hard to find.

Big question though..this thing is all of 5' tall and about 350-400
lbs or more. But the table and downfeed is at a height perfect for
someone 4' tall. Since Im 6' plus..anyone have any ideas of why its so
short and the normal way to raise it up a bit? I HATE bending over to
use a drill press. I guess I could weld up a set of elevator shoes
for it G. Any suggestions? My back will greatly appreciate any
input.

Also, it has what I think is a hold down on the column. A long arm
with some sort of toggling pad on the end of it, but no lever or
anything to clamp it. I cant quite figure out how its supposed to
tighten/loosen. When the pad assembly is slid towards the column..it
drops down a smidge.

Ive got some pictures if anyone wants to see em, of both the lathe and
the drill press.

Thanks in advance

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

In article , Gunner says...

Big question though..this thing is all of 5' tall and about 350-400
lbs or more. But the table and downfeed is at a height perfect for
someone 4' tall. Since Im 6' plus..anyone have any ideas of why its so
short and the normal way to raise it up a bit? I HATE bending over to
use a drill press. I guess I could weld up a set of elevator shoes
for it G. Any suggestions? My back will greatly appreciate any
input.

The walker turner ones are either bench or floor mounted - the only
difference is the length of the pipe column between the two.
Couldn't you just put in a longer column and make if 'full
height?'

Or is the column more complex than that?

You could always shorten it and make it a bench model...

Jim (barely ticked over 50F yesterday...)


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Congrats, Gunner. Great luck!

Bob Swinney
"Gunner" wrote in message
...
While in LA Friday afternoon, I stopped in at a customers place on a
"cold call", while on my way home. The owner noticed I was pulling my
trailer and asked if I would be interested in hauling off a lathe and
a drill press......

The upshot was, I saved a Rivett 918 second ops lathe, on factory
cabinet, with drawers full of tooling, including a full set of dead
length (push out) 7R collets, 3 jaw etc etc, from the scrappers. The
old girl is actually in pretty nice shape and has a cross slide
feature Ive never seen before. It has an in and out movement of course
and a second lever that moves the tool holder towards and away
parallel to the spindle for fast turning. Way cool. Turret filled with
tooling as well. G

But..alas..its missing the collet closer assembly at the ass end of
the spindle. It came with 3 manuals, diagrams, wiring, exploded
diagrams, factory catalogs, etc G so I can see what is supposed to
be there. The guys at the shop said they thought it was all there, and
would search...but...shrug..when stuff like this is removed..it always
winds up permanantly missing.

Anyone know of a Rivett 918 that has a "rotary chuck closer" I could
salvage? This unit has a lever that rotates upwared or downwards to
open/close the collet, rather than the normal push-pull collet closer.

Of course, Id be interested in swapping for other Rivett parts and
pieces that would fit this old girl.

Anyone need scans of the documentation, Id be happy to scan and email
or copy and snail mail. May take a bit of doing as there are quite a
number of pages. Some of it is pretty rough. Shrug.


Oh..the drill press. Rebuilt AND repainted REAL US iron, Rockwell
floor model with 3/4" hp 3ph motor. MT2 taper. Double T slots on a
decent sized table.

When I asked why they were dumping it..I was told after it was
rebuilt, no one could make it run,...electrical issues..so it went
into storage for Someday..and someday never came.

So today I moved it into the shop, got out a meter and a gallon of
sweat (95F in the shop) and started futzing around with it. I found
they had miss wired the motor badly.and had neglected to wire up the
mag starter correctly. There were a pair of wires coming out of the
bottom of the mag starter box that had been cut off.. Since there was
no off/on switch anywhere on the head..I surmised that it was for a
foot switch (missing). As I do have a couple kicking around (pun
intended), I wired one up and sure as shooting..it runs just dandy.
Quiet too for a big drill press.
Clockspring is wound a bit too tight..bottoms out when in full
extension of the quill..so Ill fix that next. Ive got it temporarily
wired, and will clean up the wiring over the coming holiday,
liquid-tite, etc. Its missing the cover for the mag starter
though..sigh..thats going to be hard to find.

Big question though..this thing is all of 5' tall and about 350-400
lbs or more. But the table and downfeed is at a height perfect for
someone 4' tall. Since Im 6' plus..anyone have any ideas of why its so
short and the normal way to raise it up a bit? I HATE bending over to
use a drill press. I guess I could weld up a set of elevator shoes
for it G. Any suggestions? My back will greatly appreciate any
input.

Also, it has what I think is a hold down on the column. A long arm
with some sort of toggling pad on the end of it, but no lever or
anything to clamp it. I cant quite figure out how its supposed to
tighten/loosen. When the pad assembly is slid towards the column..it
drops down a smidge.

Ive got some pictures if anyone wants to see em, of both the lathe and
the drill press.

Thanks in advance

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

Damn Gunner, I'm GWE. Great scrounge.

FWIW, I had the same height thing with my vertical band saw. I built a heavy
coolant catch pan with legs 6 inches high and set the saw in that. Does
several things at once: have a place to recycle coolant so I could use
flood, raises unit to save my back, and makes it REAL easy to move around
with either a die cart or a hand pallet truck.

Karl;

That's a nice bonus, very cool.

Can't help you with parts though..

John

"Gunner" wrote in message number of pages. Some of
it is pretty rough. Shrug.


Oh..the drill press. Rebuilt AND repainted REAL US iron, Rockwell
floor model with 3/4" hp 3ph motor. MT2 taper. Double T slots on a
decent sized table.

When I asked why they were dumping it..I was told after it was
rebuilt, no one could make it run,...electrical issues..so it went
into storage for Someday..and someday never came.

So today I moved it into the shop, got out a meter and a gallon of
sweat (95F in the shop) and started futzing around with it. I found
they had miss wired the motor badly.and had neglected to wire up the
mag starter correctly. There were a pair of wires coming out of the
bottom of the mag starter box that had been cut off.. Since there was
no off/on switch anywhere on the head..I surmised that it was for a
foot switch (missing). As I do have a couple kicking around (pun
intended), I wired one up and sure as shooting..it runs just dandy.
Quiet too for a big drill press.
Clockspring is wound a bit too tight..bottoms out when in full
extension of the quill..so Ill fix that next. Ive got it temporarily
wired, and will clean up the wiring over the coming holiday,
liquid-tite, etc. Its missing the cover for the mag starter
though..sigh..thats going to be hard to find.


Gunner


I'd say it wasn't a verg good rebuild job, I could have done better in my
garage! They should have sent it back or gotten their money back.

Lane

On Mon, 23 May 2005 14:45:45 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
remove .NOT to reply wrote:

Damn Gunner, I'm GWE. Great scrounge.

FWIW, I had the same height thing with my vertical band saw. I built a heavy
coolant catch pan with legs 6 inches high and set the saw in that. Does
several things at once: have a place to recycle coolant so I could use
flood, raises unit to save my back, and makes it REAL easy to move around
with either a die cart or a hand pallet truck.

Karl;


Now thats an excellent idea! I like using coolant with the bigger
drill presses...hummm indeedy.

Thanks!

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

On Mon, 23 May 2005 10:51:19 -0700, "Lane" lane (no spam) at
copperaccents dot com wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message number of pages. Some of
it is pretty rough. Shrug.


Oh..the drill press. Rebuilt AND repainted REAL US iron, Rockwell
floor model with 3/4" hp 3ph motor. MT2 taper. Double T slots on a
decent sized table.

When I asked why they were dumping it..I was told after it was
rebuilt, no one could make it run,...electrical issues..so it went
into storage for Someday..and someday never came.

So today I moved it into the shop, got out a meter and a gallon of
sweat (95F in the shop) and started futzing around with it. I found
they had miss wired the motor badly.and had neglected to wire up the
mag starter correctly. There were a pair of wires coming out of the
bottom of the mag starter box that had been cut off.. Since there was
no off/on switch anywhere on the head..I surmised that it was for a
foot switch (missing). As I do have a couple kicking around (pun
intended), I wired one up and sure as shooting..it runs just dandy.
Quiet too for a big drill press.
Clockspring is wound a bit too tight..bottoms out when in full
extension of the quill..so Ill fix that next. Ive got it temporarily
wired, and will clean up the wiring over the coming holiday,
liquid-tite, etc. Its missing the cover for the mag starter
though..sigh..thats going to be hard to find.


Gunner


I'd say it wasn't a verg good rebuild job, I could have done better in my
garage! They should have sent it back or gotten their money back.

Lane

I suspect that they did it in house. There is not all that much to
one of these drill presses and its largely a matter of simply
replacing bearings etc.

I make my living in part, repairing other peoples repairs. G

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

On Mon, 23 May 2005 18:32:13 GMT, Gunner
wrote:



I make my living in part, repairing other peoples repairs. G

There are enough people around who don't know which end of the hammer
to use on the screw, that I have never paid more than $15 for a lawn
mower to last me at least ten years.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

In article ,
Gunner wrote:
While in LA Friday afternoon, I stopped in at a customers place on a
"cold call", while on my way home. The owner noticed I was pulling my
trailer and asked if I would be interested in hauling off a lathe and
a drill press......

[ ... ]

Oh..the drill press. Rebuilt AND repainted REAL US iron, Rockwell
floor model with 3/4" hp 3ph motor. MT2 taper. Double T slots on a
decent sized table.

When I asked why they were dumping it..I was told after it was
rebuilt, no one could make it run,...electrical issues..so it went
into storage for Someday..and someday never came.

That happens -- far too often, I fear.

So today I moved it into the shop, got out a meter and a gallon of
sweat (95F in the shop) and started futzing around with it. I found
they had miss wired the motor badly.and had neglected to wire up the
mag starter correctly. There were a pair of wires coming out of the
bottom of the mag starter box that had been cut off.. Since there was
no off/on switch anywhere on the head..I surmised that it was for a
foot switch (missing). As I do have a couple kicking around (pun
intended), I wired one up and sure as shooting..it runs just dandy.
Quiet too for a big drill press.

Great!

Clockspring is wound a bit too tight..bottoms out when in full
extension of the quill..so Ill fix that next. Ive got it temporarily
wired, and will clean up the wiring over the coming holiday,
liquid-tite, etc. Its missing the cover for the mag starter
though..sigh..thats going to be hard to find.

You may have to find another mag starter with a cover --
probably easier than finding a cover to fit this one.

Big question though..this thing is all of 5' tall and about 350-400
lbs or more. But the table and downfeed is at a height perfect for
someone 4' tall. Since Im 6' plus..anyone have any ideas of why its so
short and the normal way to raise it up a bit?

It may have been for someone to operate from a chair -- perhaps
even a wheelchair.

What you might try doing is getting some oversized pipe, weld a
flange to it, and bore the ID to fit the column, and use that to extend
the start of the column. That would mean that you could not lower the
table as much as you might like, so even better would be to find some
pipe which could be turned to make a new complete column.

I HATE bending over to
use a drill press. I guess I could weld up a set of elevator shoes
for it G. Any suggestions? My back will greatly appreciate any
input.

Try it from a chair, for when you have a bunch of small parts to
drill.

Also, it has what I think is a hold down on the column. A long arm
with some sort of toggling pad on the end of it, but no lever or
anything to clamp it. I cant quite figure out how its supposed to
tighten/loosen. When the pad assembly is slid towards the column..it
drops down a smidge.

I've seen things which start with a collar around the column --
free to slide up and down when not clamped, with an arm coming out and
down at an angle -- say 30 degrees or so. This was two flats, with a
third flat between them, pivoted near the end of the first arm, and a cam
lever near the back of the first arm. There was a pivoted shoe on the
free end, so when you move the lever, it cammed the back of the free arm
up, and the pivoted shoe down to clamp the workpiece firmly. This also
put enough side load on the collar around the column so that would lock
up too.

Ive got some pictures if anyone wants to see em, of both the lathe and
the drill press.

I would be interested -- but I doubt that any of them would be
small enough to fit through my file-size spam block -- and that block
happens before my system even knows who sent it, so I can't special case
individual addresses. I suspect that the dropbox makes more sense, if
enough are interested in seeing them.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 24 May 2005 01:17:36 -0400, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:

In article ,
Gunner wrote:
While in LA Friday afternoon, I stopped in at a customers place on a
"cold call", while on my way home. The owner noticed I was pulling my
trailer and asked if I would be interested in hauling off a lathe and
a drill press......

[ ... ]

Oh..the drill press. Rebuilt AND repainted REAL US iron, Rockwell
floor model with 3/4" hp 3ph motor. MT2 taper. Double T slots on a
decent sized table.

When I asked why they were dumping it..I was told after it was
rebuilt, no one could make it run,...electrical issues..so it went
into storage for Someday..and someday never came.

That happens -- far too often, I fear.

So today I moved it into the shop, got out a meter and a gallon of
sweat (95F in the shop) and started futzing around with it. I found
they had miss wired the motor badly.and had neglected to wire up the
mag starter correctly. There were a pair of wires coming out of the
bottom of the mag starter box that had been cut off.. Since there was
no off/on switch anywhere on the head..I surmised that it was for a
foot switch (missing). As I do have a couple kicking around (pun
intended), I wired one up and sure as shooting..it runs just dandy.
Quiet too for a big drill press.

Great!

Clockspring is wound a bit too tight..bottoms out when in full
extension of the quill..so Ill fix that next. Ive got it temporarily
wired, and will clean up the wiring over the coming holiday,
liquid-tite, etc. Its missing the cover for the mag starter
though..sigh..thats going to be hard to find.

You may have to find another mag starter with a cover --
probably easier than finding a cover to fit this one.

I suspect you are correct. Ill have to check my Secret Sources © for
one.

Big question though..this thing is all of 5' tall and about 350-400
lbs or more. But the table and downfeed is at a height perfect for
someone 4' tall. Since Im 6' plus..anyone have any ideas of why its so
short and the normal way to raise it up a bit?

It may have been for someone to operate from a chair -- perhaps
even a wheelchair. Its possible..but...

What you might try doing is getting some oversized pipe, weld a
flange to it, and bore the ID to fit the column, and use that to extend
the start of the column. That would mean that you could not lower the
table as much as you might like, so even better would be to find some
pipe which could be turned to make a new complete column.

I think Id rather simply make a table to set it on. About 16" or so
tall would do the job. Another poster mentioned using it for a coolant
tank basin and I rather like that idea.

I HATE bending over to
use a drill press. I guess I could weld up a set of elevator shoes
for it G. Any suggestions? My back will greatly appreciate any
input.

Try it from a chair, for when you have a bunch of small parts to
drill.

Also, it has what I think is a hold down on the column. A long arm
with some sort of toggling pad on the end of it, but no lever or
anything to clamp it. I cant quite figure out how its supposed to
tighten/loosen. When the pad assembly is slid towards the column..it
drops down a smidge.

I've seen things which start with a collar around the column --
free to slide up and down when not clamped, with an arm coming out and
down at an angle -- say 30 degrees or so. This was two flats, with a
third flat between them, pivoted near the end of the first arm, and a cam
lever near the back of the first arm. There was a pivoted shoe on the
free end, so when you move the lever, it cammed the back of the free arm
up, and the pivoted shoe down to clamp the workpiece firmly. This also
put enough side load on the collar around the column so that would lock
up too.

I believe thats what this is..but the lever is busted off. Ill get to
it one of these days and if thats the case, simply weld another lever
on.

Ive got some pictures if anyone wants to see em, of both the lathe and
the drill press.

I would be interested -- but I doubt that any of them would be
small enough to fit through my file-size spam block -- and that block
happens before my system even knows who sent it, so I can't special case
individual addresses. I suspect that the dropbox makes more sense, if
enough are interested in seeing them.

Enjoy,
DoN.

http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop/rivett2.JPG
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop/rivett3.JPG

As you can see..its not a bench model, or a full height floor model.
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/m...rillpress1.jpg
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/m...rillpress2.JPG

Picture of new IR compressor torn up by thieves with the wrong
tools...
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop/vandal1.JPG

Nice Nichols miller Im trying to sell for a client $500 obo
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop/nichols1.JPG

I need to change the resolution to smaller file size..but for now...

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

In article ,
Gunner wrote:
On 24 May 2005 01:17:36 -0400, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:

[ ... ]

Also, it has what I think is a hold down on the column. A long arm
with some sort of toggling pad on the end of it, but no lever or
anything to clamp it. I cant quite figure out how its supposed to
tighten/loosen. When the pad assembly is slid towards the column..it
drops down a smidge.

I've seen things which start with a collar around the column --
free to slide up and down when not clamped, with an arm coming out and
down at an angle -- say 30 degrees or so. This was two flats, with a
third flat between them, pivoted near the end of the first arm, and a cam
lever near the back of the first arm. There was a pivoted shoe on the
free end, so when you move the lever, it cammed the back of the free arm
up, and the pivoted shoe down to clamp the workpiece firmly. This also
put enough side load on the collar around the column so that would lock
up too.

I believe thats what this is..but the lever is busted off. Ill get to
it one of these days and if thats the case, simply weld another lever
on.

Looking at the photo, it looks like the ones which I've seen
advertised. (I never had my hands on one to use it directly.)

Ive got some pictures if anyone wants to see em, of both the lathe and
the drill press.

I would be interested -- but I doubt that any of them would be

[ ... ]

http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop/rivett2.JPG
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop/rivett3.JPG

Nice -- it looks like it has a L-00 spindle nose -- the first
clue was one of the objects in the under shelves.

As you can see..its not a bench model, or a full height floor model.
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/m...rillpress1.jpg
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/m...rillpress2.JPG

Yep -- but you *could* weld on an extension to the bottom of the
column, and just boost the column and head.

[ ... ]

Nice Nichols miller Im trying to sell for a client $500 obo
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop/nichols1.JPG

O.K. One of the ones with the pneumatic X-axis feed. (Maybe
the Y-axis as well -- it is a bit dark to tell. But with a bit of
zooming in, I see that it has the mounting ring for the vertical head.

I don't have room for a second one -- and the shipping across
the country would be a killer.

I need to change the resolution to smaller file size..but for now...

That's O.K. I prefer to download a larger file, so I can zoom
into detail when I wish.

Thanks,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 26 May 2005 01:25:24 -0400, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:

In article ,
Gunner wrote:
On 24 May 2005 01:17:36 -0400, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:

[ ... ]

Also, it has what I think is a hold down on the column. A long arm
with some sort of toggling pad on the end of it, but no lever or
anything to clamp it. I cant quite figure out how its supposed to
tighten/loosen. When the pad assembly is slid towards the column..it
drops down a smidge.

I've seen things which start with a collar around the column --
free to slide up and down when not clamped, with an arm coming out and
down at an angle -- say 30 degrees or so. This was two flats, with a
third flat between them, pivoted near the end of the first arm, and a cam
lever near the back of the first arm. There was a pivoted shoe on the
free end, so when you move the lever, it cammed the back of the free arm
up, and the pivoted shoe down to clamp the workpiece firmly. This also
put enough side load on the collar around the column so that would lock
up too.

I believe thats what this is..but the lever is busted off. Ill get to
it one of these days and if thats the case, simply weld another lever
on.

Looking at the photo, it looks like the ones which I've seen
advertised. (I never had my hands on one to use it directly.)

I checke around some shops today..the lever is indeed busted off. Ill
weld up a new one this weekend.

Ive got some pictures if anyone wants to see em, of both the lathe and
the drill press.

I would be interested -- but I doubt that any of them would be

[ ... ]

http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop/rivett2.JPG
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop/rivett3.JPG

Nice -- it looks like it has a L-00 spindle nose -- the first
clue was one of the objects in the under shelves.

Well....its Similar to L-00, but about half that size with a rather
smallish key.

As you can see..its not a bench model, or a full height floor model.
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/m...rillpress1.jpg
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/m...rillpress2.JPG

Yep -- but you *could* weld on an extension to the bottom of the
column, and just boost the column and head.

[ ... ]

Nice Nichols miller Im trying to sell for a client $500 obo
http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/myshop/nichols1.JPG

O.K. One of the ones with the pneumatic X-axis feed. (Maybe
the Y-axis as well -- it is a bit dark to tell. But with a bit of
zooming in, I see that it has the mounting ring for the vertical head.

Y is manual. With the dial and original crank , same as the knee.

I don't have room for a second one -- and the shipping across
the country would be a killer.

Road Trip! G

I need to change the resolution to smaller file size..but for now...

That's O.K. I prefer to download a larger file, so I can zoom
into detail when I wish.

Thanks,
DoN.

Thanks for the comments.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner