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| Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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Novice questions: easiest safest way to join 1/8" round stock? Safety Issues
I've read a book (Richard Finch's) and some internet material, own no
equipment but can buy what I need, and have no prior experience. I would like to make what amounts to ornamental "sculptures", as a hobby 100 pound load, about 2 yards X 2 yards in size draft then design as I go over several months, -- I need to do the welding myself using only 1/8" round steel stock welded together and about 1000 small welds. oxy-acet-- I don't have a safe place to store the tanks -- I have a house with an attached non-ventilated garage which gets to 130F in the summer. Covenants forbid storage sheds. I could probably put a small 1-2 yard tall box with ventilated sides in a well-shaded area, although it would get a little wet. Would this work? Summer temperatures reach up to 110degrees here. If I could get around the storage issues, I would use small tanks since tank refill versus convenience is not an issue. What kind of torch would I need? wire-feed mig -- will a 115volt house current welder be able to do the job? I'm really concerned about the ultraviolet radiation which is why I would prefer the oxy-acet. But I suppose mig is what most novices are using. Would a decent fan blow safely blow away the toxic fumes? Probably. I've read the automatic darkening eye helmets allow some UV radiation through while they're darkening. UV eye damage is cumulative. brazing? Not sure if I could join two 1/8" round stock rods together so they'd stay together. I'm trying to imagine two rods, one lying on top of the other, perpendicular, and I see not much of a contact area for a braze (1/32 of an inch?) particularly for someone who doesn't know what they're doing. spot welding? -- too thick So, from what I know up to now, it looks like a 115v wire-feed mig with a good helmet and all the other clothing protection, with a fan to blow fumes away, and some type to sight baffle so kids and pets don't look at the flame, or, if the storage works as described, some type of oxy-acet welder, which I would prefer. I would buy from the local supplier and make sure they would refill. here's a link to fume and other safety issues: http://www.afscme.org/health/faq-weld.htm UV eye damage Prevent Eye Damage - Protect Yourself from UV Radiation fact sheet at http://www.epa.gov/sunwise/publications.html |
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"treebeard" wrote in message news  I've read a book (Richard Finch's) and some internet material, own no equipment but can buy what I need, and have no prior experience. I would like to make what amounts to ornamental "sculptures", as a hobby 100 pound load, about 2 yards X 2 yards in size draft then design as I go over several months, -- I need to do the welding myself using only 1/8" round steel stock welded together and about 1000 small welds. oxy-acet-- I don't have a safe place to store the tanks -- I have a house with an attached non-ventilated garage which gets to 130F in the summer. Covenants forbid storage sheds. I could probably put a small 1-2 yard tall box with ventilated sides in a well-shaded area, although it would get a little wet. Would this work? Summer temperatures reach up to 110degrees here. If I could get around the storage issues, I would use small tanks since tank refill versus convenience is not an issue. What kind of torch would I need? wire-feed mig -- will a 115volt house current welder be able to do the job? I'm really concerned about the ultraviolet radiation which is why I would prefer the oxy-acet. But I suppose mig is what most novices are using. Would a decent fan blow safely blow away the toxic fumes? Probably. I've read the automatic darkening eye helmets allow some UV radiation through while they're darkening. UV eye damage is cumulative. brazing? Not sure if I could join two 1/8" round stock rods together so they'd stay together. I'm trying to imagine two rods, one lying on top of the other, perpendicular, and I see not much of a contact area for a braze (1/32 of an inch?) particularly for someone who doesn't know what they're doing. spot welding? -- too thick So, from what I know up to now, it looks like a 115v wire-feed mig with a good helmet and all the other clothing protection, with a fan to blow fumes away, and some type to sight baffle so kids and pets don't look at the flame, or, if the storage works as described, some type of oxy-acet welder, which I would prefer. I would buy from the local supplier and make sure they would refill. here's a link to fume and other safety issues: http://www.afscme.org/health/faq-weld.htm UV eye damage Prevent Eye Damage - Protect Yourself from UV Radiation fact sheet at http://www.epa.gov/sunwise/publications.html You are smart to seek out the dangerous parts of the task. Of all the processes you mentioned, I would use the MIG. Yes, it is dangerous. Protect yourself at all times. Buy the best equipment you can afford, especially safety equipment. UV rays will give you skin cancer, but that is to EXPOSED SKIN. Wear long sleeved shirts, I prefer Wrangler with the snaps. Wear welding hats. Wear boots that slip on so that the dingleberries (molten BBs of metal) don't go down into your socks. Don't wear any pants or clothing that has frayed edges. It WILL catch fire. Wear good gloves. Good welding gloves are around $15 a pair. Get a good autodarkening hood. Wear it at all times. I like the ones with the 4x5 window. Wear ear protection. A molten dingleberry will burn through your eardrum in an instant, and can mess up the rest of your life when it comes to anything that requires balance. I like the spring clips that hang around the neck when not in use. The sponge rubber types get dirty too easily. If you will be spot welding, the fumes won't be bad. You can't have wind blowing on your weld with a MIG, but you can have a fan pulling the air away from you. I wouldn't be concerned about the fumes unless you are welding in a confined space. Clean the metal, because that is the source of a lot of smoke. Buy a good wirefeed welder. Cheap ones are attractive, but you can't get parts as easily. Good ones last a long time, and are easier to get serviced. A cheap one isn't a deal if it isn't working or in the repair shop. Look for used. I would stick with Lincoln or Miller only. Buy good tools. They last, and are safer. Observe all safety rules. Particularly shop clutter, and having flammables around the welding area. Good luck. Steve |
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"treebeard" wrote in message
news I would like to make what amounts to ornamental "sculptures", as a hobby 100 pound load, about 2 yards X 2 yards in size draft then design as I go over several months, -- I need to do the welding myself using only 1/8" round steel stock welded together and about 1000 small welds. 1/8" is coathanger stuff (well, heavy coathangers). Welding is almost impractical. g brazing? Not sure if I could join two 1/8" round stock rods together so they'd stay together. I'm trying to imagine two rods, one lying on top of the other, perpendicular, and I see not much of a contact area for a braze (1/32 of an inch?) particularly for someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Sure. Get a torch, any torch will do, even a small propane plumbing torch, it'll take a while though - heat up the joint evenly keeping an eye on temperature, heat the tip of the rod, dip in flux (a box of borax laundry booster is a lifetime supply), melt the borax and, when liquid, dab it on the joint. It'll spread out above red heat. When it reaches orange heat, the rod will melt and slightly hotter, flow into the joint by capillary action. Two 1/8" rods crossing isn't much strength, but the surface tension of brass braze is enough to make a pretty thick connection. If you stick two pieces together well and try bending it apart, I bet you'll find it bending and breaking outside of the joint. spot welding? -- too thick I see stuff like this spot welded all the time; just a matter of finding a spot welder spec'd for it. Probably not a problem; such thin material I bet can be done with the Horrible Freight unit. or, if the storage works as described, some type of oxy-acet welder, which I would prefer. I would buy from the local supplier and make sure they would refill. Personally I would go for O/A or oxypropane (gas is cheaper) and braze it. Arc welding is probably going to blast right on through, not to mention all that machine and capital for teeny 1/8" joints. It would definetly be the best thing if you have any solid stuff to tack together. Tim -- "California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes." Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
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On Sat, 07 May 2005 11:17:42 -0400, treebeard
wrote: So, from what I know up to now, it looks like a 115v wire-feed mig with a good helmet and all the other clothing protection, with a fan to blow fumes away, and some type to sight baffle so kids and pets don't look at the flame, or, if the storage works as described, some type of oxy-acet welder, which I would prefer. I would buy from the local supplier and make sure they would refill. Why not simply store your tanks in the corner until needed? Its not rocket science. Try to keep them away from open flames and check your valves periodicly for leaks. If worst comes to worst...Rubbermaid makes a very low profile outdoor shed..what I call a shovel cabinet http://apachechemical.safeshopper.com/49/8739.htm?844 Tuck it up against the wall outside, put a padlock on it and voila..instant outdoors safe storage. as for toxic fumes, ultra violet and whatnot...simply open the garage door (assuming your home owners ass. lets you keep it open). Maybe a breezebox fan in the corner. No one is going to go blind while watching you weld, from the street. Children on skateboards will not suddenly swerve into traffic or mailboxes, dogs will not go catatonic and cats heave up glowing in the dark hair balls (it only sounds like it). If you cant keep your own kids from watching the arc..you have bigger issues afoot. I think you would be best served with O/A or even tig. Mig is not really designed for this sort of fine work in my opinion..which is worth exactly what you paid for it. Least not in the hands of beginners like you and me. Gunner "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stewart Mill |
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"treebeard" wrote in message
news I've read a book (Richard Finch's)... Until you get better answers from some experts, a couple of comments: You're smart to think safety first. Keep thinking that way as you learn. Brazing would be more than adequate, although I'm not recommending it (nor anything else -- recommending specific things is for the experts). Brass ("bronze") brazing rod will make a nice, strong fillet. I have made a campfire grill and a charcoal grill from 1/8" mild steel rod and brass brazing, using a MAPP torch for heat. It was slow, too slow for 1,000 joints, for most people, and it heated so much of the wire that both grills wound up being a little noodle-like. g However, the joints are strong as hell. I'm still using one of them after 20 years. If you're cheap (something I can identify with) and if the appearance of the joints isn't important, consider stick. The first welding I ever did was stick-welding of this type. It will stick things together, and, physically, that's all you need. If you graduate to welding airframes, move away from stick. If you're going to be doing 500 joints at a sitting, consider MIG. But I can't see why you'd need the gas. I'd first try flux-core. It's better in the wind, anyway. Then get some good brushes for clean-up. Have fun. If you enjoy it, it's a very liberating way to do metalwork. -- Ed Huntress |
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#6
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"treebeard" wrote in message news I've read a book (Richard Finch's) and some internet material, own no equipment but can buy what I need, and have no prior experience. I would like to make what amounts to ornamental "sculptures", as a hobby 100 pound load, about 2 yards X 2 yards in size draft then design as I go over several months, -- I need to do the welding myself using only 1/8" round steel stock welded together and about 1000 small welds. oxy-acet-- I don't have a safe place to store the tanks -- I have a house with an attached non-ventilated garage which gets to 130F in the summer. Covenants forbid storage sheds. I could probably put a small 1-2 yard tall box with ventilated sides in a well-shaded area, although it would get a little wet. Would this work? Summer temperatures reach up to 110degrees here. If I could get around the storage issues, I would use small tanks since tank refill versus convenience is not an issue. What kind of torch would I need? wire-feed mig -- will a 115volt house current welder be able to do the job? I'm really concerned about the ultraviolet radiation which is why I would prefer the oxy-acet. But I suppose mig is what most novices are using. Would a decent fan blow safely blow away the toxic fumes? Probably. I've read the automatic darkening eye helmets allow some UV radiation through while they're darkening. UV eye damage is cumulative. brazing? Not sure if I could join two 1/8" round stock rods together so they'd stay together. I'm trying to imagine two rods, one lying on top of the other, perpendicular, and I see not much of a contact area for a braze (1/32 of an inch?) particularly for someone who doesn't know what they're doing. spot welding? -- too thick So, from what I know up to now, it looks like a 115v wire-feed mig with a good helmet and all the other clothing protection, with a fan to blow fumes away, and some type to sight baffle so kids and pets don't look at the flame, or, if the storage works as described, some type of oxy-acet welder, which I would prefer. I would buy from the local supplier and make sure they would refill. here's a link to fume and other safety issues: http://www.afscme.org/health/faq-weld.htm UV eye damage Prevent Eye Damage - Protect Yourself from UV Radiation fact sheet at http://www.epa.gov/sunwise/publications.html I'd use O/A. MIG is too fast to have any control joining 1/8" rods to each other. TIG would work well, but O/A would work very nicely with a lot less investment. You could make a lot of such joints per fill, either welded or brazed, with small O/A tanks that are easily portable to a space of habitable temperature when not in use. I'd go with a 20 cu ft acetylene and 40 cu foot oxy, the pair mounted on a light hand truck. No problem going up and down stairs with such a rig, and the bottles are easy to handle when going for refills. I would strongly recommend a Smith Little Torch with a #4 or #5 tip for this work. http://www.littletorch.com/ Using this and .035 MIG wire for filler, I'll bet with a little practice you'd be making sound welds of good appearance. The small torch will offer better control while using significantly less gas than a larger torch. Another plus is that the hoses are very light, which contributes to control and lack of fatigue on small work like this. Don't be deceived by the size; it is quite capable of welding 1/8" steel rod as quickly and well as a larger torch. Might want a #6 or #7 tip for 3/16" or 1/4" rod. The web page says "up to 1/8" steel, but they must be referring to angle iron or sheetmetal. I braze 3/8" rod with mine with no problem. Your weld time would be a few seconds per joint: quick enough to be acceptable while allowing enough time to retain excellent visual control of the process. Crossings could be welded, but they might be better done with brazing which the Little Torch also does very well. There's plenty of contact area for a good braze because the braze metal (bronze or nickel silver) will form a fillet. Strong cross-joints are very easy to make quickly with these materials. I'm not making this up. I've had and used a Little Torch and bottles as described for years. I also have MIG and TIG, but I'd use the Little Torch for the work you describe. Safety: these joints are so small that the precautions prudent when doing heavier arc welding are a bit absurd here. Use of good goggles with a #4 filter would be mandatory. Kidskin welding gloves as Tillman TIG and MIG gloves aren't mandatory but might save some burnt fingers. These gloves are thinner and much more supple than arcwelding gauntlets, afford much better feel and control. I don't bother with gloves when using the Little Torch. Have fun! |
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#7
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On Sat, 7 May 2005 17:30:22 +0000 (UTC), "Don Foreman"
wrote: "treebeard" wrote in message news I've read a book (Richard Finch's) and some internet material, own no equipment but can buy what I need, and have no prior experience. I would like to make what amounts to ornamental "sculptures", as a hobby 100 pound load, about 2 yards X 2 yards in size draft then design as I go over several months, -- I need to do the welding myself using only 1/8" round steel stock welded together and about 1000 small welds. ==== snip === I'd use O/A. MIG is too fast to have any control joining 1/8" rods to each other. TIG would work well, but O/A would work very nicely with a lot less investment. You could make a lot of such joints per fill, either welded or brazed, with small O/A tanks that are easily portable to a space of habitable temperature when not in use. I'd go with a 20 cu ft acetylene and 40 cu foot oxy, the pair mounted on a light hand truck. No problem going up and down stairs with such a rig, and the bottles are easy to handle when going for refills. I would strongly recommend a Smith Little Torch with a #4 or #5 tip for this work. http://www.littletorch.com/ Using this and .035 MIG wire for filler, I'll bet with a little practice you'd be making sound welds of good appearance. The small torch will offer better control while using significantly less gas than a larger torch. Another plus is that the hoses are very light, which contributes to control and lack of fatigue on small work like this. Don't be deceived by the size; it is quite capable of welding 1/8" steel rod as quickly and well as a larger torch. Might want a #6 or #7 tip for 3/16" or 1/4" rod. The web page says "up to 1/8" steel, but they must be referring to angle iron or sheetmetal. I braze 3/8" rod with mine with no problem. Your weld time would be a few seconds per joint: quick enough to be acceptable while allowing enough time to retain excellent visual control of the process. Crossings could be welded, but they might be better done with brazing which the Little Torch also does very well. There's plenty of contact area for a good braze because the braze metal (bronze or nickel silver) will form a fillet. Strong cross-joints are very easy to make quickly with these materials. I'm not making this up. I've had and used a Little Torch and bottles as described for years. I also have MIG and TIG, but I'd use the Little Torch for the work you describe. Safety: these joints are so small that the precautions prudent when doing heavier arc welding are a bit absurd here. Use of good goggles with a #4 filter would be mandatory. Kidskin welding gloves as Tillman TIG and MIG gloves aren't mandatory but might save some burnt fingers. These gloves are thinner and much more supple than arcwelding gauntlets, afford much better feel and control. I don't bother with gloves when using the Little Torch. Have fun! Hey Everybody!! This is great!!! Thanks to all for the detailed specific advice and encouragement. Everybody gave really helpful advice. I'm excited! After reading all the messages, I'll try the oxy-acet and weld and or braze (whichever seems to work best), the small bottles mentioned above, and the safety clothes and equipment mentioned. I plan to store the bottles outside in a cheap plastic box (like Gunner mentioned) with ventilated sides. It shouldn't get too hot out there, and theft shouldn't be a problem where I put it. I could store it in a downstairs storage room, but that's underneath the kitchen and I'm paranoid about blowing spouse and daughters up. I'll take it slowly....., peeking around the corners as I go... |
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#8
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In article , Gunner says...
No one is going to go blind while watching you weld, from the street. Children on skateboards will not suddenly swerve into traffic or mailboxes, dogs will not go catatonic and cats heave up glowing in the dark hair balls (it only sounds like it). Hmmm. Then I wonder where those nuclear hairballs are coming from? Might be proximity to Indian Point plants.... I would also point out that 1/8 inch stock would be just fine for even a reasonably sized spot-welder, if he's only making crossed joints. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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#9
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treebeard wrote:
I've read a book (Richard Finch's) and some internet material, own no equipment but can buy what I need, and have no prior experience. I would like to make what amounts to ornamental "sculptures", as a hobby 100 pound load, about 2 yards X 2 yards in size draft then design as I go over several months, -- I need to do the welding myself using only 1/8" round steel stock welded together and about 1000 small welds. oxy-acet-- I don't have a safe place to store the tanks -- I have a house with an attached non-ventilated garage which gets to 130F in the summer. Covenants forbid storage sheds. I could probably put a small 1-2 yard tall box with ventilated sides in a well-shaded area, although it would get a little wet. Would this work? Summer temperatures reach up to 110degrees here. If I could get around the storage issues, I would use small tanks since tank refill versus convenience is not an issue. What kind of torch would I need? wire-feed mig -- will a 115volt house current welder be able to do the job? I'm really concerned about the ultraviolet radiation which is why I would prefer the oxy-acet. But I suppose mig is what most novices are using. Would a decent fan blow safely blow away the toxic fumes? Probably. I've read the automatic darkening eye helmets allow some UV radiation through while they're darkening. UV eye damage is cumulative. brazing? Not sure if I could join two 1/8" round stock rods together so they'd stay together. I'm trying to imagine two rods, one lying on top of the other, perpendicular, and I see not much of a contact area for a braze (1/32 of an inch?) particularly for someone who doesn't know what they're doing. spot welding? -- too thick So, from what I know up to now, it looks like a 115v wire-feed mig with a good helmet and all the other clothing protection, with a fan to blow fumes away, and some type to sight baffle so kids and pets don't look at the flame, or, if the storage works as described, some type of oxy-acet welder, which I would prefer. I would buy from the local supplier and make sure they would refill. here's a link to fume and other safety issues: http://www.afscme.org/health/faq-weld.htm UV eye damage Prevent Eye Damage - Protect Yourself from UV Radiation fact sheet at http://www.epa.gov/sunwise/publications.html Spotwelding would be best. Exceedingly efficient on this joint, minimal warpage (your work will end up more like you want than with other processes) and very fast. Don't believe the "too thick" idea, I think you'd find that even a little hand-held Miller unit would perform well on this. Look at the joints on a shopping cart, they're spot welded (bunch of wires at a time, typically, on a serious machine) and very seldom fail. Really, that's the best process for the job. Anything else is going to be slooow and will present you with all sorts of warpage and annealling issues.. You'll have no fumes, or at least very few, no eye protection needed outside of good glasses.. John |
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#10
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"treebeard" wrote in message
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| I've read a book (Richard Finch's) and some internet material, own no| equipment but can buy what I need, and have no prior experience. | | I would like to make what amounts to ornamental "sculptures", as a | hobby | 100 pound load, about 2 yards X 2 yards in size | draft then design as I go over several months, -- I need to do the | welding myself | using only 1/8" round steel stock welded together and about 1000 small | welds. SNIP I'd say for sure that you are very aware of all safety issues! However, you do need to look at them in the context of size and application and you'll see that most of the issues are small for your issue, eye protection notwithstanding. I had two ideas. One being brazing, and at higher stress points and for ease of assembly, slap some hog rings on the joints. You didn't describe how the wire crosses, so I assume that hog rings will do the job for a lot of points. Brazing right over the hog rings is definitely easier. My other idea is the spot welder. If you ever have a chance, look over commercial screen and grating and you'll see the wire is all connected with what appears to be spot welds. Continuous spot welds, done between rollers. For your money I think its the way to go. Harbor freight sells a 115V model for $150, with a max capacity of 1/8". For that kind of capacity, I'd actually go for the 220V model, but that depends on if you have 220V in your garage, and what kind of extension cord you need to run for your project. The only safety equipment I'd get would be some basic dark safety glasses, assuming you already have good clothes and gloves. Once you get going there'll be lots of flashing you'll see too much of with bare eyes. They sell replacement tongs for them and it might be worth having a set modified to fit your specific application. Best bang for your buck, as far as I'm concerned. |
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JohnM wrote in news:427d14ed$0$28841
: treebeard wrote: I've read a book (Richard Finch's) and some internet material, own no equipment but can buy what I need, and have no prior experience. I would like to make what amounts to ornamental "sculptures", as a hobby 100 pound load, about 2 yards X 2 yards in size draft then design as I go over several months, -- I need to do the welding myself using only 1/8" round steel stock welded together and about 1000 small welds. oxy-acet-- I don't have a safe place to store the tanks -- I have a house with an attached non-ventilated garage which gets to 130F in the summer. Covenants forbid storage sheds. I could probably put a small 1-2 yard tall box with ventilated sides in a well-shaded area, although it would get a little wet. Would this work? Summer temperatures reach up to 110degrees here. If I could get around the storage issues, I would use small tanks since tank refill versus convenience is not an issue. What kind of torch would I need? wire-feed mig -- will a 115volt house current welder be able to do the job? I'm really concerned about the ultraviolet radiation which is why I would prefer the oxy-acet. But I suppose mig is what most novices are using. Would a decent fan blow safely blow away the toxic fumes? Probably. I've read the automatic darkening eye helmets allow some UV radiation through while they're darkening. UV eye damage is cumulative. brazing? Not sure if I could join two 1/8" round stock rods together so they'd stay together. I'm trying to imagine two rods, one lying on top of the other, perpendicular, and I see not much of a contact area for a braze (1/32 of an inch?) particularly for someone who doesn't know what they're doing. spot welding? -- too thick So, from what I know up to now, it looks like a 115v wire-feed mig with a good helmet and all the other clothing protection, with a fan to blow fumes away, and some type to sight baffle so kids and pets don't look at the flame, or, if the storage works as described, some type of oxy-acet welder, which I would prefer. I would buy from the local supplier and make sure they would refill. here's a link to fume and other safety issues: http://www.afscme.org/health/faq-weld.htm UV eye damage Prevent Eye Damage - Protect Yourself from UV Radiation fact sheet at http://www.epa.gov/sunwise/publications.html Spotwelding would be best. Exceedingly efficient on this joint, minimal warpage (your work will end up more like you want than with other processes) and very fast. Don't believe the "too thick" idea, I think you'd find that even a little hand-held Miller unit would perform well on this. Look at the joints on a shopping cart, they're spot welded (bunch of wires at a time, typically, on a serious machine) and very seldom fail. Really, that's the best process for the job. Anything else is going to be slooow and will present you with all sorts of warpage and annealling issues.. You'll have no fumes, or at least very few, no eye protection needed outside of good glasses.. John I really think what we are talking about here amounts to spot welds. 1/8 stock is almost going to be a limp noddle before you ever get it weilded with A/O A good 115 volt wire weilder is what he needs |
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#12
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My wife recently had " Surely you're Joking, Mr. Feyman " on cassette
tapes from the library. In it Mr. Feyman desribed how ho watched the first test of the Atomic Bomb from inside a pickup truck becasue the glass would absorb all the ultraviolet. So although sunlight can be really bad for the eyes, wearing glasses protects you. THey don't even have to be dark glasses. But the way to go is a spot welder. Welding wire at right angles is perfect for spot welding. The current has to go thru right where you are welding. With sheet metal it can and does go out to the sides and to the other piece of metal. So a spot welder that is rated for 1/8 metal total thickness, would probably do two 1/8 inch thick wires even tho the thickness is twice what the spot welder is rated for. I have a mig welder and would never recommend it for what you want to do. Brazing with propane and air would be better than Mig. In Seattle we recently had a meeting of the Seattle Metalheads. Grant as usual did a good job of organizing it. He arranged for Michael Porter to talk about gas burners. Michael is the author of " Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces and Kilns " ( available ot Amazon.com for $16 plus. ) You could buy his book and make your own propane torch which you could use for brazing. Or you could buy a " Hi Heat Torch " which uses propane and compressed air. Michael says it works really well and produces higher heat than his burner ( that does not require compressed air, so it really isn't apples to apples ) If you let me know your address, I will send you a couple bits of 1/8 inch welding rod brazed at right angles with silver braze, and maybe a couple joined by spot welding. I will have to kludge up a spot welder so that might take a day or two. Dan |
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#13
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"Don Foreman" wrote in message ... I would strongly recommend a Smith Little Torch with a #4 or #5 tip for this work. http://www.littletorch.com/ A post script to this after sleeping on it: another good choice for you might be the Meco Midget torch. http://www.tinmantech.com/html/meco_midget_torch.html I've not used this torch but I've found that The Tinman's recommendations work well. There is some overlap in capability with the Smith Little Torch. The Little Torch will do smaller stuff than the Meco, the Meco will do heavier stuff than the Little Torch, both are very suitable for joining 1/8" rod. If you're more likely to want to go larger than smaller (than 1/8" rod), the Meco Midget might be a better choice. Another consideration might be that additional tips for the Meco are about half the cost (each) of those for the Smith Little Torch. Yet another is that the Meco has a bit more standoff distance, which would be an advantage for heavier work where more heat is involved. Kent (the Tinman) sez the Meco gets pretty hot with the larger tips, but he does mostly sheetmetal: more area radiating heat. I have no problem with the Little Torch with a #6 tip, but I'd use an aircraft torch (more like the Meco) for sheetmetal that I wasn't welding with TIG or MIG. That would be thin aluminum (.030") rather than steel. Re one poster's comment that 1/8" rod would be a "wet noodle" before you'd get a weld with O/A: only if the torch is too big for the job. With the right tip on either of these smaller torches one can quickly establish and easily manage a puddle the size of a pinhead. It's quite easy to buttweld 1/8" steel rod, making a weld that looks like a minor bulge in the wire. Buttwelding sewing needles is no problem with the Little Torch. I routinely use it for making welded thermocouples with 24-gage wire. Spotwelding would be faster if you can always get at the joint easily with the tongs. That's alwasy true for the first weld, might be less true as the structure takes shape. You can always get at the joint with a small torch. As a structure gains complexity, you might find O/A faster than spotwelding if getting the tongs to the joint gets to be a problem. I definitely agree that a spotwelder would be the way to go for making grocery carts. |
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Don Foreman wrote: "treebeard" wrote in message news I've read a book (Richard Finch's) and some internet material, own no equipment but can buy what I need, and have no prior experience. I would like to make what amounts to ornamental "sculptures", as a hobby 100 pound load, about 2 yards X 2 yards in size draft then design as I go over several months, -- I need to do the welding myself using only 1/8" round steel stock welded together and about 1000 small welds. oxy-acet-- I don't have a safe place to store the tanks -- I have a house with an attached non-ventilated garage which gets to 130F in the summer. Covenants forbid storage sheds. I could probably put a small 1-2 yard tall box with ventilated sides in a well-shaded area, although it would get a little wet. Would this work? Summer temperatures reach up to 110degrees here. If I could get around the storage issues, I would use small tanks since tank refill versus convenience is not an issue. What kind of torch would I need? wire-feed mig -- will a 115volt house current welder be able to do the job? I'm really concerned about the ultraviolet radiation which is why I would prefer the oxy-acet. But I suppose mig is what most novices are using. Would a decent fan blow safely blow away the toxic fumes? Probably. I've read the automatic darkening eye helmets allow some UV radiation through while they're darkening. UV eye damage is cumulative. brazing? Not sure if I could join two 1/8" round stock rods together so they'd stay together. I'm trying to imagine two rods, one lying on top of the other, perpendicular, and I see not much of a contact area for a braze (1/32 of an inch?) particularly for someone who doesn't know what they're doing. spot welding? -- too thick So, from what I know up to now, it looks like a 115v wire-feed mig with a good helmet and all the other clothing protection, with a fan to blow fumes away, and some type to sight baffle so kids and pets don't look at the flame, or, if the storage works as described, some type of oxy-acet welder, which I would prefer. I would buy from the local supplier and make sure they would refill. here's a link to fume and other safety issues: http://www.afscme.org/health/faq-weld.htm UV eye damage Prevent Eye Damage - Protect Yourself from UV Radiation fact sheet at http://www.epa.gov/sunwise/publications.html I'd use O/A. MIG is too fast to have any control joining 1/8" rods to each other. TIG would work well, but O/A would work very nicely with a lot less investment. You could make a lot of such joints per fill, either welded or brazed, with small O/A tanks that are easily portable to a space of habitable temperature when not in use. I'd go with a 20 cu ft acetylene and 40 cu foot oxy, the pair mounted on a light hand truck. No problem going up and down stairs with such a rig, and the bottles are easy to handle when going for refills. I would strongly recommend a Smith Little Torch with a #4 or #5 tip for this work. http://www.littletorch.com/ Using this and .035 MIG wire for filler, I'll bet with a little practice you'd be making sound welds of good appearance. The small torch will offer better control while using significantly less gas than a larger torch. Another plus is that the hoses are very light, which contributes to control and lack of fatigue on small work like this. Don't be deceived by the size; it is quite capable of welding 1/8" steel rod as quickly and well as a larger torch. Might want a #6 or #7 tip for 3/16" or 1/4" rod. The web page says "up to 1/8" steel, but they must be referring to angle iron or sheetmetal. I braze 3/8" rod with mine with no problem. Your weld time would be a few seconds per joint: quick enough to be acceptable while allowing enough time to retain excellent visual control of the process. Crossings could be welded, but they might be better done with brazing which the Little Torch also does very well. There's plenty of contact area for a good braze because the braze metal (bronze or nickel silver) will form a fillet. Strong cross-joints are very easy to make quickly with these materials. I'm not making this up. I've had and used a Little Torch and bottles as described for years. I also have MIG and TIG, but I'd use the Little Torch for the work you describe. Safety: these joints are so small that the precautions prudent when doing heavier arc welding are a bit absurd here. Use of good goggles with a #4 filter would be mandatory. Kidskin welding gloves as Tillman TIG and MIG gloves aren't mandatory but might save some burnt fingers. These gloves are thinner and much more supple than arcwelding gauntlets, afford much better feel and control. I don't bother with gloves when using the Little Torch. Have fun! A Little Gem or other micro torch would be great for your application. They use a fraction of the gas that regular sized OA rigs use. If you can afford it, TIG is also very good. It is basically an electric torch that can be set to work very fast to minimize warpage. Bugs |
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"Bugs" wrote in news:1115548687.313995.267880
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com: A Little Gem or other micro torch would be great for your application. They use a fraction of the gas that regular sized OA rigs use. If you can afford it, TIG is also very good. It is basically an electric torch that can be set to work very fast to minimize warpage. Bugs IIRC from illumination on the subject of warpage vs method, in the sci.engr.joining.welding newsgroup, O/A is the worst, followed by TIG, then stick, with MIG generally causing the least. I think this was comparing the same welding job. |
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"Ken Moffett" wrote in message ... IIRC from illumination on the subject of warpage vs method, in the sci.engr.joining.welding newsgroup, O/A is the worst, followed by TIG, then stick, with MIG generally causing the least. I think this was comparing the same welding job. Perhaps for fab work as in building a trailer. Warpage isn't an issue when working with 1/8" dia wire. If it bends while welding it, bend it back after welding. |
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On Sun, 8 May 2005 09:23:04 +0000 (UTC), "Don Foreman"
wrote: "Don Foreman" wrote in message ... I would strongly recommend a Smith Little Torch with a #4 or #5 tip for this work. http://www.littletorch.com/ A post script to this after sleeping on it: another good choice for you might be the Meco Midget torch. http://www.tinmantech.com/html/meco_midget_torch.html I've not used this torch but I've found that The Tinman's recommendations work well. There is some overlap in capability with the Smith Little Torch. The Little Torch will do smaller stuff than the Meco, the Meco will do heavier stuff than the Little Torch, both are very suitable for joining 1/8" rod. If you're more likely to want to go larger than smaller (than 1/8" rod), the Meco Midget might be a better choice. Another consideration might be that additional tips for the Meco are about half the cost (each) of those for the Smith Little Torch. Yet another is that the Meco has a bit more standoff distance, which would be an advantage for heavier work where more heat is involved. Kent (the Tinman) sez the Meco gets pretty hot with the larger tips, but he does mostly sheetmetal: more area radiating heat. I have no problem with the Little Torch with a #6 tip, but I'd use an aircraft torch (more like the Meco) for sheetmetal that I wasn't welding with TIG or MIG. That would be thin aluminum (.030") rather than steel. .. ... Spotwelding would be faster if you can always get at the joint easily with the tongs. That's alwasy true for the first weld, might be less true as the structure takes shape. You can always get at the joint with a small torch. As a structure gains complexity, you might find O/A faster than spotwelding if getting the tongs to the joint gets to be a problem. I definitely agree that a spotwelder would be the way to go for making grocery carts. Now that I've looked around at what I want to make, I see there are whole websites and even a yahoo group devoted to the subject, which I see is called "roller ball sculptures" or RBS. I saw one of these 13 years ago and always wanted to make some. http://www.medved.net/mike/rolling/rbs3.htm and http://www.chaneyproductions.com/marble_coaster.htm are nice examples with some construction details. The yahoo group "rollingballsculptures", "Rons" photos, has an example of a nice jig to maintain proper rail spacing, which is about 3/4 of the ball diameter. Another jig design was described in a text message. Stainless steel seems to be the best material for the rails (1/8") and frame (3/8") So for assembly, I would use a jig rail clamp before and after the "U" brace, and first try brazing side to side (90 degrees) (well, first is practicing and learning to braze and weld) or try an end to side weld for the "U" brace, whatever seems to work, probably the braze. Now that I know more, a spot weld probably would score the rail on the ball side, and it might be hard to get to some "spots". Rail sections are butt-welded together. I'll try the O-A equipment and will look at both the Smith Little Torch with a #4 or #5 tip and at the Meco Midget torch. On brazing stainless steel with nickel-silver brazing using O-A, does anyone shield with CO2 (to make a cleaner braze?) or are flux coated rods used? Thanks again, Don and all, for all the information and help! |
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On 7 May 2005 21:45:33 -0700, "
wrote: My wife recently had " Surely you're Joking, Mr. Feyman " on cassette tapes from the library. In it Mr. Feyman desribed how ho watched the first test of the Atomic Bomb from inside a pickup truck becasue the glass would absorb all the ultraviolet. So although sunlight can be really bad for the eyes, wearing glasses protects you. THey don't even have to be dark glasses. But the way to go is a spot welder. Welding wire at right angles is perfect for spot welding. The current has to go thru right where you are welding. With sheet metal it can and does go out to the sides and to the other piece of metal. So a spot welder that is rated for 1/8 metal total thickness, would probably do two 1/8 inch thick wires even tho the thickness is twice what the spot welder is rated for. I have a mig welder and would never recommend it for what you want to do. Brazing with propane and air would be better than Mig. In Seattle we recently had a meeting of the Seattle Metalheads. Grant as usual did a good job of organizing it. He arranged for Michael Porter to talk about gas burners. Michael is the author of " Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces and Kilns " ( available ot Amazon.com for $16 plus. ) You could buy his book and make your own propane torch which you could use for brazing. Or you could buy a " Hi Heat Torch " which uses propane and compressed air. Michael says it works really well and produces higher heat than his burner ( that does not require compressed air, so it really isn't apples to apples ) If you let me know your address, I will send you a couple bits of 1/8 inch welding rod brazed at right angles with silver braze, and maybe a couple joined by spot welding. I will have to kludge up a spot welder so that might take a day or two. Dan Thanks, Dan. (see my reply to Don for the project details) Looks like I'll be brazing and welding with the O-A, the welding for the butt-welds to join the rail sections together. The roller ball sculpture that I saw years ago, from what I remember, looked like it was brazed together only, with a tiny gap between rail sections, although I didn't know enough back then to tell the difference between a braze and a weld and memory is kind of fuzzy. I do remember the gap between the rails, though. I plan to butt weld the rail ends together. Michael (treebeard) |
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#20
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Where are you located? I too have been inspired to make RBSs, and have
already been down this path. I started with O/A and a Little Torch, silver soldering stainless rod. I used the two-headed torch tip to heat the joint all around, and used a flux and food grade silver solder. Then I bought a Henrob Dillon O/A/ torch. But I was still dis-satisfied with the joints. So I have now gone to TIG. I took a series of welding courses at the community college and then bought a small Daytona Pocket Pulse Tig Welder for $450 on eBay. But if I was starting over, I would buy the Harbor Freight TIG welder for $199, which is way less than the O/A Little Torch setup will cost you. If you are near Austin, I would be delighted to have you come over and try these out... Good Luck! "treebeard" wrote in message ... On Sun, 8 May 2005 09:23:04 +0000 (UTC), "Don Foreman" wrote: "Don Foreman" wrote in message ... I would strongly recommend a Smith Little Torch with a #4 or #5 tip for this work. http://www.littletorch.com/ A post script to this after sleeping on it: another good choice for you might be the Meco Midget torch. http://www.tinmantech.com/html/meco_midget_torch.html I've not used this torch but I've found that The Tinman's recommendations work well. There is some overlap in capability with the Smith Little Torch. The Little Torch will do smaller stuff than the Meco, the Meco will do heavier stuff than the Little Torch, both are very suitable for joining 1/8" rod. If you're more likely to want to go larger than smaller (than 1/8" rod), the Meco Midget might be a better choice. Another consideration might be that additional tips for the Meco are about half the cost (each) of those for the Smith Little Torch. Yet another is that the Meco has a bit more standoff distance, which would be an advantage for heavier work where more heat is involved. Kent (the Tinman) sez the Meco gets pretty hot with the larger tips, but he does mostly sheetmetal: more area radiating heat. I have no problem with the Little Torch with a #6 tip, but I'd use an aircraft torch (more like the Meco) for sheetmetal that I wasn't welding with TIG or MIG. That would be thin aluminum (.030") rather than steel. . .. Spotwelding would be faster if you can always get at the joint easily with the tongs. That's alwasy true for the first weld, might be less true as the structure takes shape. You can always get at the joint with a small torch. As a structure gains complexity, you might find O/A faster than spotwelding if getting the tongs to the joint gets to be a problem. I definitely agree that a spotwelder would be the way to go for making grocery carts. Now that I've looked around at what I want to make, I see there are whole websites and even a yahoo group devoted to the subject, which I see is called "roller ball sculptures" or RBS. I saw one of these 13 years ago and always wanted to make some. http://www.medved.net/mike/rolling/rbs3.htm and http://www.chaneyproductions.com/marble_coaster.htm are nice examples with some construction details. The yahoo group "rollingballsculptures", "Rons" photos, has an example of a nice jig to maintain proper rail spacing, which is about 3/4 of the ball diameter. Another jig design was described in a text message. Stainless steel seems to be the best material for the rails (1/8") and frame (3/8") So for assembly, I would use a jig rail clamp before and after the "U" brace, and first try brazing side to side (90 degrees) (well, first is practicing and learning to braze and weld) or try an end to side weld for the "U" brace, whatever seems to work, probably the braze. Now that I know more, a spot weld probably would score the rail on the ball side, and it might be hard to get to some "spots". Rail sections are butt-welded together. I'll try the O-A equipment and will look at both the Smith Little Torch with a #4 or #5 tip and at the Meco Midget torch. On brazing stainless steel with nickel-silver brazing using O-A, does anyone shield with CO2 (to make a cleaner braze?) or are flux coated rods used? Thanks again, Don and all, for all the information and help! |
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Don Foreman wrote:
Re one poster's comment that 1/8" rod would be a "wet noodle" before you'd get a weld with O/A: only if the torch is too big for the job. With the right tip on either of these smaller torches one can quickly establish and easily manage a puddle the size of a pinhead. It's quite easy to buttweld 1/8" steel rod, making a weld that looks like a minor bulge in the wire. Buttwelding sewing needles is no problem with the Little Torch. I routinely use it for making welded thermocouples with 24-gage wire. I'm going to watch for one of these torches, statements like that make me want one.. I've got to ask though, can you get a weld on the material in question with this torch quick enough to not anneal the material a distance down its length equal to its diameter? That's the point where I figure the annealing is going to become a serious issue and that's why I wouldn't have suggested a torch. John |
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"treebeard" wrote in message ... On brazing stainless steel with nickel-silver brazing using O-A, does anyone shield with CO2 (to make a cleaner braze?) or are flux coated rods used? Flux-coated rods, or bare rods with flux from a can. Experiment with different brazing materials, including "silversolder", to see which you like best. Silversolder is pricey by the ounce, but a little of it goes a long way and it can be very strong. It also works well with stainless. It runs at barely-red temperature, so distortion becomes a non-issue. Flux removal will be an issue, is easily accomplished with boiling water. Don't be stingy with flux. If you don't use enough it can load up with oxides and be difficult to remove. Excess flux that isn't loaded is quite easy to remove. Much or most of it will pop off if the joint is quenched with a squirt of water after brazing. |
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"JohnM" wrote in message m... Re one poster's comment that 1/8" rod would be a "wet noodle" before you'd get a weld with O/A: only if the torch is too big for the job. With the right tip on either of these smaller torches one can quickly establish and easily manage a puddle the size of a pinhead. It's quite easy to buttweld 1/8" steel rod, making a weld that looks like a minor bulge in the wire. Buttwelding sewing needles is no problem with the Little Torch. I routinely use it for making welded thermocouples with 24-gage wire. I'm going to watch for one of these torches, statements like that make me want one.. I've got to ask though, can you get a weld on the material in question with this torch quick enough to not anneal the material a distance down its length equal to its diameter? That's the point where I figure the annealing is going to become a serious issue and that's why I wouldn't have suggested a torch. John I would say no unless the adjacent regions were heatsunk or otherwise chilled. TIG might be better choice there, though I'd think even TIG would have a HAZ of a diameter or more without heatsinking. But annealing isn't an issue with mild steel. I've had no problem with stuff made out of 1/8" rod or even silverbrazing HSS twist drills on the ends of 18" mild steel extension rods for running wiring thru walls and floors -- including intervening studs and joists if that's what's on the other side. If heat control of adjacent regions were an issue, I'd use TIG and "Heat-Stop" paste near the joint. http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...il.aspx?p=1121 Similar stuff is available at my welding store, probably at yours as well. |
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"Emmo" wrote in message ... Where are you located? I too have been inspired to make RBSs, and have already been down this path. I started with O/A and a Little Torch, silver soldering stainless rod. I used the two-headed torch tip to heat the joint all around, and used a flux and food grade silver solder. Then I bought a Henrob Dillon O/A/ torch. But I was still dis-satisfied with the joints. So I have now gone to TIG. I took a series of welding courses at the community college and then bought a small Daytona Pocket Pulse Tig Welder for $450 on eBay. But if I was starting over, I would buy the Harbor Freight TIG welder for $199, which is way less than the O/A Little Torch setup will cost you. If you are near Austin, I would be delighted to have you come over and try these out... Not to disparage TIG at all, but I don't think TIG will be "way less" than O/A. The $199 job from HF does not include an argon tank or regulator, so add those plus an auto-darkening helmet to the cost. O/A: about $130 for a Little Torch set with hoses and 5 tips, two tanks, two regulators, and about $15 for goggles with a shade 4 lens. Recurring gas cost with TIG will be higher than with O/A because argon gas flow rate is higher (20 cu ft/hr) than O/A to a torch and argon is more expensive than either oxy or actylene. TIG can make very nice welds quickly, but it doesn't offer the additional option of brazing. If I were building an RB, I'd go with stainless rod silverbrazed with Handy & Harman Easy-Flo 45. http://www.handyharmancanada.com/The...Part%202-3.htm Treebeard, if you'll email me your mail addy I'll send you a little sample of Easy-Flo 45 to play with. I don't sell anything, just have some that another RCM'er (Jerry Martes) shared with me. |
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OK Don, I won't argue with your corrections to my numbers. I went with the
Little Torch approach as well, and while I spent significantly more for the two tanks and regulators, upon review, I retract my earlier cost comparison. But when I googled for the 23-1004A (the acetylene setup) I found a cost of $495... I also used the Handy & Harmon silver solder, but I would have to go dig it up to be certain of which exact grade. This is the pointer to the double-headed torch tip: http://www.littletorch.com/tips.html I still like my Pocket Pulse TIG setup better though... Having written these messages, I think I am going to sell my Dillon/Henrob and Little Torches after I do some ebay research to figure out what they are worth. I'll post the eBay numbers once I get around to listing them... Thanx! "Don Foreman" wrote in message ... "Emmo" wrote in message ... Where are you located? I too have been inspired to make RBSs, and have already been down this path. I started with O/A and a Little Torch, silver soldering stainless rod. I used the two-headed torch tip to heat the joint all around, and used a flux and food grade silver solder. Then I bought a Henrob Dillon O/A/ torch. But I was still dis-satisfied with the joints. So I have now gone to TIG. I took a series of welding courses at the community college and then bought a small Daytona Pocket Pulse Tig Welder for $450 on eBay. But if I was starting over, I would buy the Harbor Freight TIG welder for $199, which is way less than the O/A Little Torch setup will cost you. If you are near Austin, I would be delighted to have you come over and try these out... Not to disparage TIG at all, but I don't think TIG will be "way less" than O/A. The $199 job from HF does not include an argon tank or regulator, so add those plus an auto-darkening helmet to the cost. O/A: about $130 for a Little Torch set with hoses and 5 tips, two tanks, two regulators, and about $15 for goggles with a shade 4 lens. Recurring gas cost with TIG will be higher than with O/A because argon gas flow rate is higher (20 cu ft/hr) than O/A to a torch and argon is more expensive than either oxy or actylene. TIG can make very nice welds quickly, but it doesn't offer the additional option of brazing. If I were building an RB, I'd go with stainless rod silverbrazed with Handy & Harman Easy-Flo 45. http://www.handyharmancanada.com/The...Part%202-3.htm Treebeard, if you'll email me your mail addy I'll send you a little sample of Easy-Flo 45 to play with. I don't sell anything, just have some that another RCM'er (Jerry Martes) shared with me. |
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On Sat, 7 May 2005 10:35:05 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote: "treebeard" wrote in message news I would like to make what amounts to ornamental "sculptures", as a hobby 100 pound load, about 2 yards X 2 yards in size draft then design as I go over several months, -- I need to do the welding myself using only 1/8" round steel stock welded together and about 1000 small welds. 1/8" is coathanger stuff (well, heavy coathangers). Welding is almost impractical. g brazing? Not sure if I could join two 1/8" round stock rods together so they'd stay together. I'm trying to imagine two rods, one lying on top of the other, perpendicular, and I see not much of a contact area for a braze (1/32 of an inch?) particularly for someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Sure. Get a torch, any torch will do, even a small propane plumbing torch, it'll take a while though - heat up the joint evenly keeping an eye on temperature, heat the tip of the rod, dip in flux (a box of borax laundry booster is a lifetime supply), melt the borax and, when liquid, dab it on the joint. It'll spread out above red heat. When it reaches orange heat, the rod will melt and slightly hotter, flow into the joint by capillary action. Two 1/8" rods crossing isn't much strength, but the surface tension of brass braze is enough to make a pretty thick connection. If you stick two pieces together well and try bending it apart, I bet you'll find it bending and breaking outside of the joint. spot welding? -- too thick I see stuff like this spot welded all the time; just a matter of finding a spot welder spec'd for it. Probably not a problem; such thin material I bet can be done with the Horrible Freight unit. or, if the storage works as described, some type of oxy-acet welder, which I would prefer. I would buy from the local supplier and make sure they would refill. Personally I would go for O/A or oxypropane (gas is cheaper) and braze it. Arc welding is probably going to blast right on through, not to mention all that machine and capital for teeny 1/8" joints. It would definetly be the best thing if you have any solid stuff to tack together. Tim I agree wholehartedly - 1/8" rounds braze very easily - I wouldn't recommend a propane plumbers torch, but a good air/acetelene plumbers torch would do the job - or oxy acetelene (my choice). Buy flux coated brazing rods and keap them clean and dry - a bit of borax for stubborn joints - and CLEAN THE METAL BEFORE BRAZING. Scotchbrite works very well. The only buggaboo with brazing is if you don't have enough heat, the heat will travel back the metal and may remelt joints in the same general area - so you want a hot enough torch (which is why I rule out a standard propane torch) |
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On Sat, 7 May 2005 12:32:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote: "treebeard" wrote in message news I've read a book (Richard Finch's)... Until you get better answers from some experts, a couple of comments: You're smart to think safety first. Keep thinking that way as you learn. Brazing would be more than adequate, although I'm not recommending it (nor anything else -- recommending specific things is for the experts). Brass ("bronze") brazing rod will make a nice, strong fillet. I have made a campfire grill and a charcoal grill from 1/8" mild steel rod and brass brazing, using a MAPP torch for heat. It was slow, too slow for 1,000 joints, for most people, and it heated so much of the wire that both grills wound up being a little noodle-like. g However, the joints are strong as hell. I'm still using one of them after 20 years. If you're cheap (something I can identify with) and if the appearance of the joints isn't important, consider stick. The first welding I ever did was stick-welding of this type. It will stick things together, and, physically, that's all you need. If you graduate to welding airframes, move away from stick. If you're going to be doing 500 joints at a sitting, consider MIG. But I can't see why you'd need the gas. I'd first try flux-core. It's better in the wind, anyway. Then get some good brushes for clean-up. Have fun. If you enjoy it, it's a very liberating way to do metalwork. Ed - if you can stick weld 1/8" wire you are a better man than I am. Even wire-feed Mig would be a real PITA. |
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"treebeard" wrote in message
news I would like to make what amounts to ornamental "sculptures", as a hobby 100 pound load, about 2 yards X 2 yards in size draft then design as I go over several months, -- I need to do the welding myself using only 1/8" round steel stock welded together and about 1000 small welds. Personally, I'd choose brazing myself for this project, not just because I think it would be easier than welding, but also because I think the bronze color of the copper-based filler metals will add to the beauty of your work. After all, you are making an ornamental sculpture. Here's a good source of brazing info: http://www.lucasmilhaupt.com/ Regards, Michael |
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Don Foreman wrote:
"JohnM" wrote in message m... Re one poster's comment that 1/8" rod would be a "wet noodle" before you'd get a weld with O/A: only if the torch is too big for the job. With the right tip on either of these smaller torches one can quickly establish and easily manage a puddle the size of a pinhead. It's quite easy to buttweld 1/8" steel rod, making a weld that looks like a minor bulge in the wire. Buttwelding sewing needles is no problem with the Little Torch. I routinely use it for making welded thermocouples with 24-gage wire. I'm going to watch for one of these torches, statements like that make me want one.. I've got to ask though, can you get a weld on the material in question with this torch quick enough to not anneal the material a distance down its length equal to its diameter? That's the point where I figure the annealing is going to become a serious issue and that's why I wouldn't have suggested a torch. John I would say no unless the adjacent regions were heatsunk or otherwise chilled. TIG might be better choice there, though I'd think even TIG would have a HAZ of a diameter or more without heatsinking. But annealing isn't an issue with mild steel. I've had no problem with stuff made out of 1/8" rod or even silverbrazing HSS twist drills on the ends of 18" mild steel extension rods for running wiring thru walls and floors -- including intervening studs and joists if that's what's on the other side. If heat control of adjacent regions were an issue, I'd use TIG and "Heat-Stop" paste near the joint. http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...il.aspx?p=1121 Similar stuff is available at my welding store, probably at yours as well. Yeah, maybe I felt more concerned about annealing than the situation would warrant. I'm going to watch for one of them torches though.. John |
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wrote in message
... I agree wholehartedly - 1/8" rounds braze very easily - I wouldn't recommend a propane plumbers torch, but a good air/acetelene plumbers torch would do the job - or oxy acetelene (my choice). Agreed. Seems to me the extra heat will be needed to cover a thousand joints! Buy flux coated brazing rods and keap them clean and dry - a bit of borax for stubborn joints - and CLEAN THE METAL BEFORE BRAZING. Scotchbrite works very well. I don't have much trouble with this, but then, I cake on the borax liberally. Cleanliness never hurts though. The only buggaboo with brazing is if you don't have enough heat, the heat will travel back the metal and may remelt joints in the same general area - so you want a hot enough torch (which is why I rule out a standard propane torch) I've never had this problem. With a cold air/propane torch, you have enough trouble getting the joint you're working on up to temp, let alone a neighboring one! The only trouble I've had with my (fat, 3/4" pipe burner  propane torchis, aside from being slow, the relatively wide and slow heat gets the *whole* joint hot, *and* then some. Real troublesome if gravity is working against you... brass dribbles anyone? Overheating is *never* a problem, being that it's slow and I only heat it enough that the brass flows. I would suppose a good hot O/A torch could be a little ornery in this regard, but I haven't used one yet so I can't say. I'm sure it's nothing experience can't fix... Tim -- "California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes." Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
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wrote in message
... Ed - if you can stick weld 1/8" wire you are a better man than I am. Even wire-feed Mig would be a real PITA. Hmm, must be he used 1/16" rods. Ya got me too, I find 3/32" rods way hotter than 1/8"...(yeah, probably running them too hot, or not used to the burn rate...they stick things together good though!) Tim -- "California is the breakfast state: fruits, nuts and flakes." Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
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wrote in message
... Ed - if you can stick weld 1/8" wire you are a better man than I am. Even wire-feed Mig would be a real PITA. You may call it welding, or you may call it sticking things together. g When I once had a very cheap buzz box, the only thing I had handy to stick together the first couple of days was a bundle of wire that had been run through a straightener and chopped off into 18" lengths. You just tap the intersection with the electrode, making sure you first hit the piece that's directly grounded, and then pull back. It's all timing, not technique. It's ugly, but it sticks. However, seeing that the OP is interested in something more appropriate and maybe doesn't mind spending a few bucks, he'll be better off avoiding it. -- Ed Huntress |
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Gunner, you're right again. If we believed all the crap that the OH&S
merchants would have us believe, we wouldn't get out of bed! Just use a bit of common sense. Some of the things they warn us as being deadly,are in fact deadly, but you are in greater danger of being struck down by an enraged water buffalo falling out of your cumquat tree. Here in Aus, the ocean is full of sharks, but we average only about one person per year being taken. That doesn't keep people out of the water as the risks are about 1 in 20 million per year. I even cross the Nepean Highway sometimes and that is a LOT more risky.. Tom "Gunner" wrote in message ... On Sat, 07 May 2005 11:17:42 -0400, treebeard wrote: So, from what I know up to now, it looks like a 115v wire-feed mig with a good helmet and all the other clothing protection, with a fan to blow fumes away, and some type to sight baffle so kids and pets don't look at the flame, or, if the storage works as described, some type of oxy-acet welder, which I would prefer. I would buy from the local supplier and make sure they would refill. Why not simply store your tanks in the corner until needed? Its not rocket science. Try to keep them away from open flames and check your valves periodicly for leaks. If worst comes to worst...Rubbermaid makes a very low profile outdoor shed..what I call a shovel cabinet http://apachechemical.safeshopper.com/49/8739.htm?844 Tuck it up against the wall outside, put a padlock on it and voila..instant outdoors safe storage. as for toxic fumes, ultra violet and whatnot...simply open the garage door (assuming your home owners ass. lets you keep it open). Maybe a breezebox fan in the corner. No one is going to go blind while watching you weld, from the street. Children on skateboards will not suddenly swerve into traffic or mailboxes, dogs will not go catatonic and cats heave up glowing in the dark hair balls (it only sounds like it). If you cant keep your own kids from watching the arc..you have bigger issues afoot. I think you would be best served with O/A or even tig. Mig is not really designed for this sort of fine work in my opinion..which is worth exactly what you paid for it. Least not in the hands of beginners like you and me. Gunner "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stewart Mill |
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On Sun, 08 May 2005 16:10:24 GMT, "Emmo" wrote:
Where are you located? I too have been inspired to make RBSs, and have already been down this path. I started with O/A and a Little Torch, silver soldering stainless rod. I used the two-headed torch tip to heat the joint all around, and used a flux and food grade silver solder. Then I bought a Henrob Dillon O/A/ torch. But I was still dis-satisfied with the joints. So I have now gone to TIG. I took a series of welding courses at the community college and then bought a small Daytona Pocket Pulse Tig Welder for $450 on eBay. But if I was starting over, I would buy the Harbor Freight TIG welder for $199, which is way less than the O/A Little Torch setup will cost you. If you are near Austin, I would be delighted to have you come over and try these out... Good Luck! Hi, Emmo! I'm in Georgia, but appreciate the offer. |
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On Sun, 8 May 2005 22:37:12 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote: wrote in message .. . I agree wholehartedly - 1/8" rounds braze very easily - I wouldn't recommend a propane plumbers torch, but a good air/acetelene plumbers torch would do the job - or oxy acetelene (my choice). Agreed. Seems to me the extra heat will be needed to cover a thousand joints! Buy flux coated brazing rods and keap them clean and dry - a bit of borax for stubborn joints - and CLEAN THE METAL BEFORE BRAZING. Scotchbrite works very well. I don't have much trouble with this, but then, I cake on the borax liberally. Cleanliness never hurts though. The only buggaboo with brazing is if you don't have enough heat, the heat will travel back the metal and may remelt joints in the same general area - so you want a hot enough torch (which is why I rule out a standard propane torch) I've never had this problem. With a cold air/propane torch, you have enough trouble getting the joint you're working on up to temp, let alone a neighboring one! The only trouble I've had with my (fat, 3/4" pipe burner propane torchis, aside from being slow, the relatively wide and slow heat gets the *whole* joint hot, *and* then some. Real troublesome if gravity is working against you... brass dribbles anyone? Overheating is *never* a problem, being that it's slow and I only heat it enough that the brass flows. I would suppose a good hot O/A torch could be a little ornery in this regard, but I haven't used one yet so I can't say. I'm sure it's nothing experience can't fix... Tim Done much brazing? Thought not. Low heat causes the whole shebang to heat up to the same temperature - very slowly, and the last 5 or 6 joints you just finished remelt and fall apart.. Using a good hot torch makes your new joint before the heat gets to the old one. |
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wrote in message
... Overheating is *never* a problem, being that it's slow and I only heat it enough that the brass flows. I would suppose a good hot O/A torch could be a little ornery in this regard, but I haven't used one yet so I can't say. I'm sure it's nothing experience can't fix... Tim Done much brazing? Thought not. Low heat causes the whole shebang to heat up to the same temperature - very slowly, and the last 5 or 6 joints you just finished remelt and fall apart.. Using a good hot torch makes your new joint before the heat gets to the old one. I think they have to awfully close together to make that happen when bronze-brazing. That happens in soft soldering, but, if you're brazing steel wire, I think you'd have to be overheating the joint outrageously to make that happen unless they're right next to each other. I've had no problem brazing up charcoal grills with a big propane torch or a MAPP torch. -- Ed Huntress |
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On Sun, 8 May 2005 19:27:42 +0000 (UTC), "Don Foreman"
wrote: "Emmo" wrote in message . .. Where are you located? I too have been inspired to make RBSs, and have already been down this path. I started with O/A and a Little Torch, silver soldering stainless rod. I used the two-headed torch tip to heat the joint all around, and used a flux and food grade silver solder. Then I bought a Henrob Dillon O/A/ torch. But I was still dis-satisfied with the joints. So I have now gone to TIG. I took a series of welding courses at the community college and then bought a small Daytona Pocket Pulse Tig Welder for $450 on eBay. But if I was starting over, I would buy the Harbor Freight TIG welder for $199, which is way less than the O/A Little Torch setup will cost you. If you are near Austin, I would be delighted to have you come over and try these out... Not to disparage TIG at all, but I don't think TIG will be "way less" than O/A. The $199 job from HF does not include an argon tank or regulator, so add those plus an auto-darkening helmet to the cost. O/A: about $130 for a Little Torch set with hoses and 5 tips, two tanks, two regulators, and about $15 for goggles with a shade 4 lens. Recurring gas cost with TIG will be higher than with O/A because argon gas flow rate is higher (20 cu ft/hr) than O/A to a torch and argon is more expensive than either oxy or actylene. TIG can make very nice welds quickly, but it doesn't offer the additional option of brazing. If I were building an RB, I'd go with stainless rod silverbrazed with Handy & Harman Easy-Flo 45. http://www.handyharmancanada.com/The...Part%202-3.htm Treebeard, if you'll email me your mail addy I'll send you a little sample of Easy-Flo 45 to play with. I don't sell anything, just have some that another RCM'er (Jerry Martes) shared with me. I was looking at the web site http://lucasmilhaupt.com/ (thanks for the link) Good information on brazing, and I was looking at some of their products, now that you've mentioned the Easy-Flo. Easy-Flo 45 liquid at 1145 F 24% Cd Joining ferrous, nonferrous and dissimilar metals and alloys with close joint clearances. Easy-Flo 35 liquid at 1295 F 18% Cd Similar to Easy-Flo 45, but used where joint clearances are large and fillets are desired. The Easy-Flo filler has cadmium, which I'd like to advoid. (lol, I'm a picky eater, too.) The following "Silver-Based Cadmium-Free Filler" , Braze 452, looks interesting: Braze 452 liquid at 1260 F 45% silver (same as Easy-Flo 45) Low temperature, free-flowing, Cd-free alloy. (http://lucasmilhaupt.com/htmdocs/bra...mium_free.html) The biggest difference that I see with the Braze 452 is the higher liquid temperature. So it looks like either the Easy-Flo 45 or Braze 452 . Thanks for all the help!... I'll buy a torch, tanks, rods, filler, a helment, gloves, ......a big vice...... and then get some experience......It'll be weeks while I scrounge for some time. |
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#39
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"Tim Williams" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Overheating is *never* a problem, being that it's slow and I only heat it enough that the brass flows. I would suppose a good hot O/A torch could be a little ornery in this regard, but I haven't used one yet so I can't say. I'm sure it's nothing experience can't fix... Brazing is a lot easier and faster with O/A or oxypropane than with propane-air torchzilla. Brazing a joint less than 1" distant from a previously-brazed joint in 1/8" rod is no problem at all and it only takes a few seconds to do. An exception to this might be larger work, as perhaps brazing cannon alls -- that example borrowed from Ron Reil. |
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