The difference between witches and communist is that communist exist.
There really may BE communist in the government.

You leftist managed to slander and lie about McCarthy and convince
people that there were no communist and Soviet agents in the U.S.
Government. We know now for a fact that there were.

That being so, one has to ask, why are you still lying about it being a
"witch hunt" (which implies that there were not) and, more importantly,
since we didn't root out the commie *******s back in the 1950s because
of a well planned commie propaganda campaign, why would they commies be
gone now?

Indeed, this is explains why people in Hollywood, the news media, and
our educational system as well as in our government are much farther to
the left than the general U.S. population. Thinking men know this.
Liars like you try and cover it up, and tell really lame propaganda to
cover for you commie buddies.


Debate, is a game. To play this game, you take the side you advocate,
for whatever reason, usually selfish, and you try and convince other
people that you are right and your opposition is wrong.

Many debaters use various tactics that are know to be fallacies. One of
them is to misstate what their opponent said, and then attack the
misstatement. It is the opposite of understanding, it is a method of
lies and deception. Hopefully, the third person will mistake the lie for
what the other person said, and accept the liar as offering the better
reason.

People who use this method on usenet snip out large portions that would
incriminate them as intentionally misstating. Note that damn little of
the context of what I said has been preserved by Huntress.

Truth is not found via debate, however. One reason is that both debaters
may be liars. Those who seek truth want to understand BOTH sides. If the
truth is more important than, holding a popular or "nice" political
view, or wanting to fit in with the popular conventional wisdom, or
simple cowardice in the face of an ugly reality, you will never get to
the truth.

Those who know the truth do not "debate". It is not a game. Most people
believe what they want to believe, for what ever reason, and lack the
capacity to question and reason.

Ed is not interested in the truth. Nor is Cliff. They want to debate,
and they are using tactics that a child could spot.

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...


How dumb can you get! I pointed out that McCarthy was not a member of
the house, which leads any rational person to the conclusion that he
could not be a member of the HUAC, and you gibber on, seeming under
the impression that the House Un American Activities Committee was a
senate committee?


What do you do, Stuart, make a compost pile of these messages and
wait until
they turn black before responding? I hardly remember this conversation.

Humm. Yeah. You'd have to read where I quoted you. In context. Like all
those parts you clipped out to respond with this post. LOL!


My recollection is that you said McCarthy could NOT have named
communists,
because he wasn't on the House Un-American Activities Committee.

That's not what I said. It was very easy for you to read what I said
both times. I would try a third time, but I think you're a liar, and
you'd just lie again. I don't know your motivation, but I know you're
not letting go of it to seek the truth.

I pointed
out that it was the Senate committee that named 83 of them. Now you
seem to
be spinning off in some other direction.

And I pointed out that they were not named as communist, they were named
as having taken then 5th Amendment protection against self incrimination
when asked about evidence that they know about communist and Soviet
agents in the state department.

That's different. It was done to raise the issue of why are there people
with security clearances in the state department who have such a poor
background investigation that they have to take the fifth when asked
about communist and the agents of a hostile government in our state
department.

YOU concluded that they were communist. That just so happens to not have
been far from the truth, but it was NOT what McCarthy said they were.

Take your composted messages and go see if you can get something to
grow in
them, OK? I'm not following some whirling dervish around the barn.

Lots of bull**** in your post, but all that grows in them are lies and
oppression.

Hasta luego.

On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:33:34 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

If you say ANYTHING it's ALL fair game for the
hunters.
You don't have to be guilty of ANYTHING to take
the 5th.

So, this is your excuse for damning everything McCarthy did? Not only
does it not follow, your stupid excuse isn't even right.

The 5th says you cannot be compelled to testify against yourself.
Obviously, you cannot be made to testify against yourself when you,
yourself, are on trial for a crime. Another instance is when you are
testifying and to answer would incriminate yourself. There is no right
to refuse to answer if what you have to say will NOT incriminate yourself.

And in a witch hunt ....

Have you stopped beating your wife?

A) Yes
B) No
C) Take the 5th & don't answer.

Your choice. What are YOU answering?
--
Cliff

On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:39:36 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

Cliff wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:18:41 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


Mary Jane Keeney and Gutavo Duran WERE communist.


So are you, probably.
So what?

You don't even realize how irrational that is, do you?

People like you are why I have no faith in human nature and my respect
for human intelligence is so low.

And you seem to be a case in point.

If I am supporting McCarthy, and making the claim that we have a problem
in that there are communist in our government, our media, and our
educational systems, as evideced by:
1) The failed McCarthy and HUAC efforts to get them out.
2) The proven by the FBI that the threat was real.
3) The objective evidece that the media and our educational systems are
far more to the left than the general public...

Then only an idiot would conclude, as you did, that I am probably a
communist.

Well, we already KNOW that you are not too bright .....
BTW, Are you a winger too? They sort of go together .....
--
Cliff

Stuart Grey wrote:


People like you are why I have no faith in human nature and my respect
for human intelligence is so low.

So what are you then a Muppet?

On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:41:57 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

Cliff wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:18:41 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


What McCarthy was doing here was damning the
State Department for taking steps that allowed and empowered the
Communist to take over China, steps that McCarthy called "traitorous
actions".


Mao & others were US State Department agents? Long before
Nixon & McCarthy?

Again, your selective stupidity is showing. If you are incapable of
determing what the meaning of what I said,

So not even you know? LOL ....

that there were those in the
U.S. State department that helped the communist in China take over,
really means that Mao was in the U.S. State department, then you're a
gibbering ape.

A great many helped China. So what?

http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/Hist.../shklovsky.htm
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures...ff/chinoff.htm
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/72-38/72-38.htm

What kind of total fool are you?

Are you calling for Nixon to be hung?

BTW, "Communism" is still doing just fine.

I think that I may have just insulted apes...

Half blind as well?

HTH
--
Cliff
--
Cliff

On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:13:27 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

The difference between witches and communist is that communist exist.
There really may BE communist in the government.

Gee, so WHAT?
That's what they said about witches too for hunderds of years.
CLUE: There may be NEOCONS & WINGERS in government.
--
Cliff

On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:13:27 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

Indeed, this is explains why people in Hollywood, the news media, and
our educational system as well as in our government are much farther to
the left than the general U.S. population.

And all this time I thought it was because they were smart
enought to have an education, think for themselves, keep an
open mind, not be taken in by winger propaganda & lies .....

We learn something new every day, right?

BTW, Who stuffed that in you? Some preacher or Rush?
Been to Manchuria lately?
http://tinyurl.com/7baby

Did you say "Hi" to Gunner?
--
Cliff

On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:13:27 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


Those who know the truth do not "debate".

They just march to the neocon & fundie drums & start firing,
right?
--
Cliff

"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...

Ed is not interested in the truth. Nor is Cliff. They want to debate,
and they are using tactics that a child could spot.

Stick it up your butt, you twisted Nazi prick.

How's that for debate?

--
Ed Huntress

"Stuart Grey" wrote in message ...
Cliff wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:18:41 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


Mary Jane Keeney and Gutavo Duran WERE communist.


So are you, probably.
So what?

You don't even realize how irrational that is, do you?

People like you are why I have no faith in human nature and my respect for human intelligence is so low.

If I am supporting McCarthy, and making the claim that we have a problem in that there are communist in our government, our media,
and our educational systems, as evideced by:
1) The failed McCarthy and HUAC efforts to get them out.
2) The proven by the FBI that the threat was real.
3) The objective evidece that the media and our educational systems are far more to the left than the general public...

Then only an idiot would conclude, as you did, that I am probably a communist.


http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/2/hi/europe/4362325.stm

Ahh, perhaps today we've finally discovered why the true believers call
themselves Neocons. Neofascists, was taken.

John

On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:39:36 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

Cliff wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:18:41 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


Mary Jane Keeney and Gutavo Duran WERE communist.


So are you, probably.
So what?

You don't even realize how irrational that is, do you?

People like you are why I have no faith in human nature and my respect
for human intelligence is so low.

If I am supporting McCarthy, and making the claim that we have a problem
in that there are communist in our government, our media, and our
educational systems, as evideced by:
1) The failed McCarthy and HUAC efforts to get them out.
2) The proven by the FBI that the threat was real.
3) The objective evidece that the media and our educational systems are
far more to the left than the general public...

Then only an idiot would conclude, as you did, that I am probably a
communist.

I failed to note your name in the Verona Papers...though a large
number of government and Hollywood types were in there.

You may find this of interest as well

Follow the series
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...8/162537.shtml

and

http://groups.msn.com/HistoryWarPoli...88493869575786

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Thu, 19 May 2005 19:03:15 -0500, "John Scheldroup"
wrote:


"Stuart Grey" wrote in message ...
Cliff wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:18:41 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


Mary Jane Keeney and Gutavo Duran WERE communist.


So are you, probably.
So what?

You don't even realize how irrational that is, do you?

People like you are why I have no faith in human nature and my respect for human intelligence is so low.

If I am supporting McCarthy, and making the claim that we have a problem in that there are communist in our government, our media,
and our educational systems, as evideced by:
1) The failed McCarthy and HUAC efforts to get them out.
2) The proven by the FBI that the threat was real.
3) The objective evidece that the media and our educational systems are far more to the left than the general public...

Then only an idiot would conclude, as you did, that I am probably a communist.


http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/2/hi/europe/4362325.stm

Ahh, perhaps today we've finally discovered why the true believers call
themselves Neocons. Neofascists, was taken.

John

Same reason Liberals are called Liberals.
Pond Scum was already taken.

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:33:34 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


History shows that the State Department itself found that these people
were questionable. It was the FDR/Truman administrations that protected
them. Why?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...7/165830.shtml

McCarthy Transcripts Point to Cover-up by Justice Department

Wes Vernon, NewsMax.com
Wednesday, May 7, 2003

WASHINGTON – The Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations has
just made public its hitherto sealed closed-door hearings 50 years ago
showing widespread Soviet penetration of the U.S. government. Despite
the negative media spin, the hearing transcripts show its chairman,
Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy, was ahead of his time.

A prime example is the case of the atomic scientist J. Robert
Oppenheimer, whose advocacy of sharing nuclear secrets with the Soviet
Union helped bolster the war machine of the genocidal Joseph Stalin.
This gave the Soviets a leg up in the Cold War that lasted nearly a
half century and took millions of innocent lives.

Paul Crouch, at one time a top functionary of the Communist Party,
broke with the Red conspiracy and exposed communists in influential
positions. Before McCarthy’s committee, Crouch testified that he had
attended a closed Communist Party meeting with Oppenheimer.

Worse, he told the senators, two Justice Department officials in 1952
barred Crouch and his wife from testifying at a perjury trial of
another scientist for fear that in so doing, he would end up exposing
Oppenheimer.

The result was that the scientist on trial, Dr. Joseph Weinberg, was
found innocent of lying when he said he was not communist. Crouch
could have identified the man under oath, but because his testimony
would also have exposed Oppenheimer, the Justice Department
effectively conceded the case.

Part of the testimony before McCarthy’s committee reads as follows:

McCarthy: Did they [the Justice Department lawyers] say who had given
them these instructions [not to allow Oppenheimer's name to come up]?

Crouch: No, sir, they did not. They did not indicate it in any way.

And a minute later ...

McCarthy: Is there any doubt in your mind that Oppenheimer was a
member of the Communist Party?

Crouch: None whatsoever.

Crouch also testified in public hearings before the Senate panel and
shared his knowledge with the FBI.

Now fast forward to 2002:

Out comes the book “Sacred Secrets” by Jorrold and Leona Schecter, two
historian/journalists who scoured Soviet archival material and
intelligence documents and conducted extensive interviews. They settle
the argument. Oppenheimer was not innocent.

Though the authors are also critical of McCarthy, R-Wis., they show
the “profound influence that an aggressive Soviet intelligence service
exerted on U.S. domestic and foreign policy” in those years.

The Schecters find that Oppenheimer (code name CHESTER) was “a secret
member of the American Communist Party [the Soviet NKVD identifies him
as an 'unlisted member']." Their book produces FBI and Soviet
intelligence documents showing that “the Communist cell to which
Oppenheimer had belonged prior to working with the Manhattan Project
received instructions to cease relations with CHESTER to avoid
compromising him.” Henceforth, his contact would be restricted to
Soviet intelligence channels.

Now back to the 1953 testimony before the McCarthy committee:

McCarthy: And if he [Oppenheimer] were under Communist Party [or
Soviet] discipline, he, of course would be bound to turn over any
atomic secrets to them that he had available?

Crouch: That the party directed.

Also:

Crouch: It is a matter of record that Dr. Oppenheimer appointed many
Communists to key positions in the atomic energy program.
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Fri, 20 May 2005 05:07:35 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

American Communist Party

Has anyone signed up Gunner & Stuart Grey yet?
Or at the KKK?
--
Cliff

On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:39:36 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

I am supporting McCarthy

[
Main Entry: Mc·Car·thy·ism
Pronunciation: m&-'kär-thE-"i-z&m also -'kär-tE-
Function: noun
Etymology: Joseph R. McCarthy
Date: 1950
a mid-20th century political attitude characterized chiefly by
opposition to elements held to be subversive and by the use of tactics
involving personal attacks on individuals by means of widely
publicized indiscriminate allegations especially on the basis of
unsubstantiated charges
- Mc·Car·thy·ite /-"It/ noun or adjective
]

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccarthyism.htm
[
This witch-hunt and anti-communist hysteria became known as
McCarthyism. Some left-wing artists and intellectuals were unwilling
to live in this type of society and people such as Joseph Losey,
Richard Wright, Ollie Harrington, James Baldwin, Herbert Biberman,
Lester Cole and Chester Himes went to live and work in Europe.

At first Joseph McCarthy mainly targeted Democrats associated with the
New Deal policies of the 1930s. Harry S. Truman and members of his
Democratic administration such as George Marshall and Dean Acheson,
were accused of being soft on communism. Truman was portrayed as a
dangerous liberal and McCarthy's campaign helped the Republican
candidate, Dwight Eisenhower, win the presidential election in 1952.

After what had happened to McCarthy's opponents in the 1950 elections,
most politicians were unwilling to criticize him in the Senate. As the
Boston Post pointed out: "Attacking him is this state is regarded as a
certain method of committing suicide." One notable exception was
William Benton, the owner of Encyclopaedia Britannica, and a senator
from Connecticut. McCarthy and his supporters immediately began
smearing Benton. It was claimed that while Assistant Secretary of
State, he had protected known communists and that he had been
responsible for the purchase and display of "lewd art works". Benton,
who was also accused of being disloyal by Joseph McCarthy for having
much of his company's work printed in England, was defeated in the
1952 elections.
]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
[
During this period people from all walks of life became the subject of
aggressive witch-hunts, often based on inconclusive or questionable
evidence.
]

Now that we know about your methods ... remind anyone
of a few neocons that we know?
--
Cliff

Let the record show that Gunner wrote back on
Fri, 20 May 2005 04:58:25 GMT in misc.survivalism :
On Thu, 19 May 2005 19:03:15 -0500, "John Scheldroup"
wrote:


"Stuart Grey" wrote in message ...
Cliff wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:18:41 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


Mary Jane Keeney and Gutavo Duran WERE communist.


So are you, probably.
So what?

You don't even realize how irrational that is, do you?

People like you are why I have no faith in human nature and my respect for human intelligence is so low.

If I am supporting McCarthy, and making the claim that we have a problem in that there are communist in our government, our media,
and our educational systems, as evideced by:
1) The failed McCarthy and HUAC efforts to get them out.
2) The proven by the FBI that the threat was real.
3) The objective evidece that the media and our educational systems are far more to the left than the general public...

Then only an idiot would conclude, as you did, that I am probably a communist.


http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/2/hi/europe/4362325.stm

Ahh, perhaps today we've finally discovered why the true believers call
themselves Neocons. Neofascists, was taken.

Poor John, he got that one wrong too.

The "neocons" were so labeled by the old line conservatives, who became
the "paleo-cons". Neocons originally meant "Reagan Democrats" - people who
found that the Democrat party had move to their left.

It has only been since the liberals lost all the elections that they've
attempted to explain it away by blaming the jews, err, NeoCons.
John

Same reason Liberals are called Liberals.
Pond Scum was already taken.

Pond scum has a useful function.

Let me look it up in my Funk & Wagnells.

pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
"MTV may talk about lighting fires and killing children,
but Janet Reno actually does something about it." --Spy Magazine

On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:41:57 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

Cliff wrote:
On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:18:41 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


What McCarthy was doing here was damning the
State Department for taking steps that allowed and empowered the
Communist to take over China, steps that McCarthy called "traitorous
actions".


Mao & others were US State Department agents? Long before
Nixon & McCarthy?

Again, your selective stupidity is showing. If you are incapable of
determing what the meaning of what I said, that there were those in the
U.S. State department that helped the communist in China take over,
really means that Mao was in the U.S. State department, then you're a
gibbering ape.

Are you calling for Nixon to be hung?

BTW, "Communism" is still doing just fine.

I think that I may have just insulted apes...

Indeed.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

In misc.survivalism Gunner wrote:

WASHINGTON ? The Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations has
just made public its hitherto sealed closed-door hearings 50 years ago
showing widespread Soviet penetration of the U.S. government. Despite
the negative media spin, the hearing transcripts show its chairman,
Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy, was ahead of his time.


So it is settled: The fine old great wonderful actors of yesteryear were
no better than the scum sucking bottom feeders of today.

Thanks, Gunner.

On Fri, 20 May 2005 15:59:15 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

In misc.survivalism Gunner wrote:

WASHINGTON ? The Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations has
just made public its hitherto sealed closed-door hearings 50 years ago
showing widespread Soviet penetration of the U.S. government. Despite
the negative media spin, the hearing transcripts show its chairman,
Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy, was ahead of his time.


So it is settled: The fine old great wonderful actors of yesteryear were
no better than the scum sucking bottom feeders of today.

Thanks, Gunner.

Most were wonderful actors of yesteryear. As you will notice if you
read the transcript of the hearings..it was mostly writers and
producers that were the communists, not the actors.

Though there is some evidence Errol Flynn was a nazi
sympathizer...unfortunately...

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

pyotr filipivich wrote:
Let the record show that Gunner wrote back on
Fri, 20 May 2005 04:58:25 GMT in misc.survivalism :

On Thu, 19 May 2005 19:03:15 -0500, "John Scheldroup"
wrote:


"Stuart Grey" wrote in message ...

Cliff wrote:

On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:18:41 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


If you stupid moronic *******s would ever read the Venona by John Earl
Haynes and Harvey Klehr, (about the breaking of the secret Russian
Diplomatic codes of world War) all of you would find is that you ****
birds haven't the foggiest clue what the **** you are talking about.



--
He who establishes a tyranny and does not kill Brutus,
and he who establishes a democratic regime and does not kill
the sons of Brutus, will not last long.

Niccolo Machiavelli

On Fri, 20 May 2005 15:59:15 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

In misc.survivalism Gunner wrote:

WASHINGTON ? The Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations has
just made public its hitherto sealed closed-door hearings 50 years ago
showing widespread Soviet penetration of the U.S. government. Despite
the negative media spin, the hearing transcripts show its chairman,
Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy, was ahead of his time.


So it is settled: The fine old great wonderful actors of yesteryear were
no better than the scum sucking bottom feeders of today.

Thanks, Gunner.

He now hates those Italian Westerns .... Oops ... that's
where he got it all from in the first place ....
--
Cliff

On Fri, 20 May 2005 16:53:52 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


Though there is some evidence Errol Flynn was a nazi
sympathizer...unfortunately...

Kind of like the Bush family, if true ......
--
Cliff

In misc.survivalism Gunner wrote:

Though there is some evidence Errol Flynn was a nazi
sympathizer...unfortunately...

I slept in the same hotel room as him once. Right on Route 66, in the
heart of old Gallup, New Mexico. And no, he was dead and gone long befroe
I rented the room.

-- Words are flying out like endless rain into a paper cup. They slither
while they pass. They slip away across the universe.

--John Lennon

Guido wrote:
Stuart Grey wrote:


People like you are why I have no faith in human nature and my respect
for human intelligence is so low.


So what are you then a Muppet?


Actually to be more precise He is a wop Muppet!!!!!!!

--
He who establishes a tyranny and does not kill Brutus,
and he who establishes a democratic regime and does not kill
the sons of Brutus, will not last long.

Niccolo Machiavelli

alt.politics.
Follow-ups to: alt.politics

Gunner wrote:
...
Crouch: It is a matter of record that Dr. Oppenheimer appointed many
Communists to key positions in the atomic energy program.

How about if you name a few?

--

FF

On Sat, 21 May 2005 16:07:30 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

In misc.survivalism Gunner wrote:

Though there is some evidence Errol Flynn was a nazi
sympathizer...unfortunately...

I slept in the same hotel room as him once. Right on Route 66, in the
heart of old Gallup, New Mexico. And no, he was dead and gone long befroe
I rented the room.

Did he smell or did they have him wrapped in plastic ala Lenin?

Gunner


-- Words are flying out like endless rain into a paper cup. They slither
while they pass. They slip away across the universe.

--John Lennon

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

wrote in message
...



I slept in the same hotel room as him once. Right on Route 66, in the
heart of old Gallup, New Mexico. And no, he was dead and gone long befroe
I rented the room.



I once went to the Soul Food Moose in Mobile.

mk5000

"There is no Sunni or Shia. Anyone who tries to stop Iraq from moving
forward, I will fight them"--Adnan Thabit

Koz wrote:


Stuart Grey wrote:

Cliff wrote:

On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:18:41 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


These people, who worked for the government, were summuned in
secret sessions, told the situation as to why the committee
believed they knew about communist in the government, and then
questioned, and if they took the 5th, you think it's bad that
McCarthy noted publically that 83 people said that they would not
testify about communist in government because it would incriminate
them?

Too bad your commie agents were so stupid as to take the fifth.




Gee, another clueless one showed up ....



Another commie propagandist or useful idiot raises his ugly head.

What do you do if called to a witchhunt?



The difference between witches and communist is that communist exist,
whitches don't. There really may BE communist in the government.

You leftist managed to slander and lie about McCarthy and convince
people that there were no communist and Soviet agents in the U.S.
Government. We know now for a fact that there were. McCarthy, as I
pointed out, was right.

That being so, one has to ask, why are you still lying about it being
a "witch hunt" (which implies that there were not) and, more
importantly, since we didn't root out the commie *******s back in the
1950s because of a well planned commie propaganda campaign, why would
they commies be gone now?

Indeed, this is explains why people in Hollywood, the news media, and
our educational system as well as in our government are much farther
to the left than the general U.S. population. Thinking men know
this. Liars like you try and cover it up, and tell really lame
propaganda to cover for you commie buddies.


If you say ANYTHING it's ALL fair game for the
hunters.
You don't have to be guilty of ANYTHING to take
the 5th.



So, this is your excuse for damning everything McCarthy did? Not only
does it not follow, your stupid excuse isn't even right.

The 5th says you cannot be compelled to testify against yourself.
Obviously, you cannot be made to testify against yourself when you,
yourself, are on trial for a crime. Another instance is when you are
testifying and to answer would incriminate yourself. There is no right
to refuse to answer if what you have to say will NOT incriminate
yourself.



As you're busy calling everyone who disagrees with you an
idiot....

No, I did not. I called people who were deliberately distorting what I
wrote as idiots, for pretending that they didn't know how to read. If
they pretend to be an idiot, then they should not be surprised if they
are called idiots. I went into great detail explaining their simple errors.

I see that you missed that. :-)

remember that if you answer ANYTHING, your right to take the
5th is eliminated beyond that point: You MUST answer all or nothing.

Irrelevant! I said that Sen. McCarthy never named more than ONE person
as a communist. The 83 people who took the fifth when being questioned
about the evidence that they may know about communist in the government
WERE named in public as having taken the fifth. The reason this was done
was to identify the problem that there were people in the state
department who would not cooperate with a background check, and yet,
they held security clearances. McCarthy didn't out them as communist.
The majority of them WERE communist or agents of the Soviet Union, but
they were identified as taking the fifth.

Do you know the difference between it being said that you took the
fifth, and it being said that you're a communist? It appears that you
and the other pro-communist cannot. Not while it serves your propaganda
at the moment, you can't.

This means that if you didn't take the 5th on a simple question,
anything they would ask you about ANYONE else or ANYTHING else, not
matter how stupid, pointed, distorted, leading, deceptively
incriminating ("have you stopped beating your wife yet?") MUST be
answered or you are in contempt. Condemning someone who took the 5th as
"having something to hide" is as stupid as the whole McCarthy hearings
were in the first place. Facist Germany would be proud of you.

Well, Stalin considered you an idiot. A useful idiot, but still, and
idiot, and he said so.

As to what “Facist (sic) Germany” would be proud of, I don't claim to
speak for Fascist Germany, and it appears you do.

There was no response by Koz to the balance of the post

Well, finally Cliff comes out to defend the Communist Party.

Which is his real agenda. At least we can argue his issues directly
rather than having to cut through all his anti-U.S. lies.

Cliff wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:33:34 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


That being so, one has to ask, why are you still lying about it being a
"witch hunt" (which implies that there were not) and, more importantly,
since we didn't root out the commie *******s back in the 1950s because
of a well planned commie propaganda campaign, why would they commies be
gone now?


You are not very bright, right?

I'm a genius. Why do you ask? It sounds like you're making a childish
attempt at implying I'm not smart, as you have no rational argument and
have nothing left than to make unsupported argumentum ad hominem.

Of course, I know that's what you're doing. You find it hard not to
speak in trite little phrases, don't you? I wonder how much of your
posts are your original thought, and how much are due to some Jewish
script writer for some television sitcom.

Things like the early xtian churches were communism.

No. You got that one from some old communist propaganda.

The early Christians experimented with holding all property in common in
the community. They would take what they did not need, and put it in a
common store house for others in the community to take as they needed.
This was similar to the communist belief that the government should hold
all property in the name of the people. The communist idea was just a
fiction: the government owned it, and it was disposed of according to
the whims of those who were in power. Even if you believe the communist
lie, there, the similarities ended.

The early Christians never held people into the communist system at
force of arms. Communist are famous for shooting people who tried to
escape their system of slavery. They racked up quite a body count at the
Iron Curtain, for example. I personally know a number of people who
escaped communist regimes under the threat of death.

The objective fact is that people under communist governments are held
as the slaves of the government. The early Christians did not hold
anyone as slaves, and people were free to stay, leave, or not contribute
as they wished. That is very different from communist.



That portion of government spending that's done on infrastructure
& social programs is communism.

Social programs, yes. Of course, it has been my argument all along that
McCarthy was right, that there were Soviet Agents, Communist, and
Communist sympathizers in government. I am glad that you brought up that
they have instituted a number of socialist programs that are
unconstitutional, but they have done it and they have gotten away with it.


The roads you drive on were paid for by communists,

Actually, they are paid for by federal and state gas taxes, which makes
them more like a fee for use.

the
social security benefits you may get are paid for by them as well,

Now that is a socialist scam. It is no surprise that the man who put
that socialist ponzi scheme in place also harbored and protected the
communist in his administration; called a brutal, savage dictator “Uncle
Joe” and took orders from him; and made excuses for Stalin's
concentration camps.

as is (in many places) the water you drink & the *clean* air
that you breathe.

If you had been in one of your worker's paradises, you'd be able to
choke on the air. It seems that the health of the people was second to
the needs of the state to have industrial wealth. The former Warsaw pact
countries are cesspools of pollution.

Cliff wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:33:34 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


If you say ANYTHING it's ALL fair game for the
hunters.
You don't have to be guilty of ANYTHING to take
the 5th.

So, this is your excuse for damning everything McCarthy did? Not only
does it not follow, your stupid excuse isn't even right.

The 5th says you cannot be compelled to testify against yourself.
Obviously, you cannot be made to testify against yourself when you,
yourself, are on trial for a crime. Another instance is when you are
testifying and to answer would incriminate yourself. There is no right
to refuse to answer if what you have to say will NOT incriminate
yourself.


And in a witch hunt ....

Have you stopped beating your wife?

A) Yes
B) No
C) Take the 5th & don't answer.

Your choice. What are YOU answering?


Witch Hunts
No, this is an example of a loaded question. A witch hunt is where
innocent people are persecuted for fictional crimes.

Again, the fact that there were communist and Soviet Agents operating in
our state department and other branches of government is now an
established FACT. It wasn't a threat, it was a fact. Since McCarthy was
slandered out of office, there was no mechanism to remove the communist.
So, why wouldn't they still be in the government? The answer appears to
be that they are.

Loaded Questions
It is Cliff's argument, apparently (one tries to assemble a rational
argument out of his gibber) is that Sen. McCarthy asked loaded
questions. There were over 700 people who were asked questions about
their possible knowledge of communist in the state department, and the
vast majority of them came up with reasonable answers. Unlike Cliff's
example (which is a red herring) there seems to have been reasonable
answers to Sen. McCarthy's questions. Cliff is just being silly,
grasping at straws trying to liken the investigation into communist in
government to his beating your wife question. It just isn't a reasonable
analogy, and it has no basis in fact.

"Stuart Grey" wrote in message ...
Well, finally Cliff comes out to defend the Communist Party.

Which is his real agenda. At least we can argue his issues directly rather than having to cut through all his anti-U.S. lies.

Cliff wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:33:34 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


You are not very bright, right?

I'm a genius. Why do you ask? It sounds like you're making a childish attempt at implying I'm not smart, as you have no rational
argument and have nothing left than to make unsupported argumentum ad hominem.

Of course, I know that's what you're doing. You find it hard not to speak in trite little phrases, don't you? I wonder how much of
your posts are your original thought, and how much are due to some Jewish script writer for some television sitcom.


You are very anti-semitic right ? Gunner share your political views or what ?

John

Cliff wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:41:57 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


Cliff wrote:

On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:18:41 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:



What McCarthy was doing here was damning the
State Department for taking steps that allowed and empowered the
Communist to take over China, steps that McCarthy called
"traitorous
actions".


Mao & others were US State Department agents? Long before
Nixon & McCarthy?

Again, your selective stupidity is showing. If you are incapable of
determing what the meaning of what I said,


So not even you know? LOL ....


that there were those in the
U.S. State department that helped the communist in China take over,
really means that Mao was in the U.S. State department, then you're a
gibbering ape.


A great many helped China. So what?

http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/Hist.../shklovsky.htm
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures...ff/chinoff.htm
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/brochures/72-38/72-38.htm

What kind of total fool are you?

You know, I call you an idiot for using obviously invalid and unsound
arguments, and then you reply with an profoundly stupid post like this.
It's profoundly stupid because your argument isn't even wrong! It's
simply not an argument at all!

I said that people in the U.S. State department helped the Communist
take over China.

In reply, you say we helped China ... against the Japanese. Thus, you
concluded (actually, even you are so stupid as to explicitly state the
connection) that we did not help the communist? Or perhaps that we just
help people, and Chinese and communist both begins with C? I don't know
what your argument is, I'm guessing and you won't say. You splat gibber
in the newsgroups, and pretend that it means something.

I don't blame your lack of composition skills on you, I blame every
English teacher you ever had. She should have dunked your head in a
bucket and drowned you as an example to the rest of the class.

As for what kind of fool I am; like I said, so many people have fallen
for arguments are stupid as yours, I feel a need to point out their
obvious errors. I use to trust people's judgment, but they seem to need
a little help.

Are you calling for Nixon to be hung?

BTW, "Communism" is still doing just fine.

I think that I may have just insulted apes...


Half blind as well?

HTH

Cliff wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 13:13:27 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


The difference between witches and communist is that communist exist.
There really may BE communist in the government.


Gee, so WHAT?

1)Communist are not allowed security clearances.
2)Communist work against the people of the United States
3)The Communist party advocates murder and defacto slavery of the
innocent, and is thus evil.

That's what they said about witches too for hunderds of years.
CLUE: There may be NEOCONS & WINGERS in government.

Yes. Neocons and Wingers can get security clearances.

Neocon is a word coined by hard core leftist Jews to describe Jews who,
upon seeing the growing anti-Jewish movement of the left, have rejected
socialist/communist values.

Winger is a word invented by slope headed leftist who don't realize it
could apply to either left or right wing views.

Cliff wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2005 05:07:35 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


American Communist Party


Has anyone signed up Gunner & Stuart Grey yet?
Or at the KKK?

This is the kind of gibber that one learns to expect from the left.

Cliff wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:39:36 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


I am supporting McCarthy


[
Main Entry: Mc·Car·thy·ism
Pronunciation: m&-'kär-thE-"i-z&m also -'kär-tE-
Function: noun
Etymology: Joseph R. McCarthy
Date: 1950
a mid-20th century political attitude characterized chiefly by
opposition to elements held to be subversive and by the use of tactics
involving personal attacks on individuals by means of widely
publicized indiscriminate allegations especially on the basis of
unsubstantiated charges
- Mc·Car·thy·ite /-"It/ noun or adjective
]

Yes. The whole POINT of the thread, however, is that this work of
communist propaganda was simply not true. Yes, this is what the leftist
have definded as "McCarthyism". It had nothing to do with Sen. McCarthy,
however, as I've proven in previous posts.

And, as I said, that so many people swallow this leftist bull**** is the
reason why I feel I must soil myself talking to morons such as Cliff et al.

Leftist have also defined George Washington and Thomas Jefferson as evil
capitalist slave owners.

The truth is, leftist lie. They re-write history. They use the big lie.

Once you understand that, you start to look at the objective facts and
piece together what really happened. If, that is, you have a brain.

wrote:
In misc.survivalism Gunner wrote:


WASHINGTON ? The Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations has
just made public its hitherto sealed closed-door hearings 50 years ago
showing widespread Soviet penetration of the U.S. government. Despite
the negative media spin, the hearing transcripts show its chairman,
Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy, was ahead of his time.



So it is settled: The fine old great wonderful actors of yesteryear were
no better than the scum sucking bottom feeders of today.

The fine old great wonderful actors, directors and producers of
yesteryear put a politcal test right next to the casting couch.

Acting isn't that difficult. Most actors are idiots - it makes it easier
to act if you can't see what an idiot script you have. Too many actors
are ready for the casting couch; it was easy to add a political test.

Once a few top people were in place, socialist/communist filled the
industry with like minds and useful idiots.

The same thing happened at our universities and colleges. In the 1960s
and 70s, leftist students demanded professors that held a different view
than the rational view of capitalism and freedom. Once a few leftist
profs were in, they took over and booted most every sane prof out of the
department, and eventually out of the school. Now, it's hard to find a
prof who isn't a leftist.

Ditto for the news media. Ditto for the government.

Then people wonder why the schools, news media, and Hollywood are so
damned pro-communist and anti-American.

Thanks, Gunner.

Pope Secola VI wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:

Let the record show that Gunner wrote
back on
Fri, 20 May 2005 04:58:25 GMT in misc.survivalism :

On Thu, 19 May 2005 19:03:15 -0500, "John Scheldroup"
wrote:


"Stuart Grey" wrote in message
...

Cliff wrote:

On Wed, 18 May 2005 11:18:41 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:



If you stupid moronic *******s would ever read the Venona by John Earl
Haynes and Harvey Klehr, (about the breaking of the secret Russian
Diplomatic codes of world War) all of you would find is that you ****
birds haven't the foggiest clue what the **** you are talking about.

From Amazon

Editorial Reviews
Amazon.com
With this new volume, John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr build upon their
groundbreaking work in The Secret World of American Communism and
solidify their reputations as the foremost historians of Soviet
espionage in America. In Venona, they provide a detailed study of how
the United States decrypted top-secret Communist cables moving between
Washington and Moscow. This account, based on information unavailable to
researchers for decades, reveals the full extent of the Communist spy
network in the 1940s. At least 349 citizens, immigrants, and permanent
residents of the United States had a covert relationship with Soviet
intelligence agencies, among them Harry White (assistant secretary of
the treasury in FDR's administration and the Communists' highest-ranking
asset) and State Department official Alger Hiss, whose association with
the Soviets had been hotly debated since the moment he was first
publicly accused in 1948.

"The Soviet assault was of the type a nation directs at an enemy state,"
write Haynes and Klehr. They go on to suggest that Venona's
code-breaking "indicated that the Cold War was not a state of affairs
that had begun after World War II but a guerilla action that Stalin had
secretly started years earlier." Moreover, "espionage saved the USSR
great expense and industrial investment and thereby enabled the Soviets
to build a successful atomic bomb years before they otherwise would
have." Haynes and Klehr deliver what is at once a real-life spy thriller
and a vital piece of scholarship. A grand achievement. --John J.
Miller--This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

On Sat, 21 May 2005 22:44:18 -0400, "marika"
wrote:

I once went to the Soul Food Moose in Mobile.

Wintzell's Oyster House
605 Dauphin St

Opened in 1938.
http://www.wintzellsoysterhouse.com/history.asp

Used to be an interesting place.
--
Cliff

John Scheldroup wrote:
"Stuart Grey" wrote in message ...

Well, finally Cliff comes out to defend the Communist Party.

Which is his real agenda. At least we can argue his issues directly rather than having to cut through all his anti-U.S. lies.

Cliff wrote:

On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:33:34 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:


You are not very bright, right?

I'm a genius. Why do you ask? It sounds like you're making a childish attempt at implying I'm not smart, as you have no rational
argument and have nothing left than to make unsupported argumentum ad hominem.

Of course, I know that's what you're doing. You find it hard not to speak in trite little phrases, don't you? I wonder how much of
your posts are your original thought, and how much are due to some Jewish script writer for some television sitcom.



You are very anti-semitic right ?

No. You leftist like to start thowing around "bigot" and crap like that
every time you're losing an argument, don't you? As if, by some magic of
logic, that ends it.

I believe that many Jews are socialist. Albert Einstein, who made his
case for socialism in his book "Ideas and Opinions" said that Jews tend
towards socialism. I think Albert Einstein was right; from a statistical
view point, that is a fact. From a cultural anthological viewpoint, it
follows. If you mean I don't like socialism/communism, that's correct.
That is the philosophy of slavery of all mankind.

I am for the state of Israel; I believe it has done and will do wonders
for Jewish people to have their own state. I am for any Jew who wants to
practice his religion in peace. The wall will do even more wonders.
God's chosen people have spent too long without a nation, among other
people. They need to change their culture to learn to live among
themselves.

Gunner share your political views or what ?

No. Gunner holds many misconceptions that have been put in place by the
socialist. He is not ready to handle real history. The facts are ugly
and troubling. I don't think he is ready for the entire truth, though he
does seem to realize that something isn't right with history as it is.
He's already seen through the lies the leftist have put in place about
McCarthy... he may come to other realizations in the future now that he
knows that history has been written by the leftist.

Gunner is good at heart, and cannot accept the truth as it is as he
would find it ugly. He has been taught that it is ugly, and he believes it.

On Sun, 22 May 2005 08:19:10 -0700, Stuart Grey
wrote:

Cliff wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2005 05:07:35 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


American Communist Party


Has anyone signed up Gunner & Stuart Grey yet?
Or at the KKK?

This is the kind of gibber that one learns to expect from the left.

I noted a similar response from UFO John. I suspect the use of the
word Jew, (in accurate discription of Neocon) set off the neurons in
both kneecaps and caused him to jerk out of his chair, reopening that
old brain injury that plagues him so badly.

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown