BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified
as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.



Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

Gunner wrote:
BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified

as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.



Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

Gunner wrote:
BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified

as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.

So far, the assault-style weapons, and .50 cals and some ammo have been
outlawed, confiscated, and destroyed. Local governments have used
tactics of buy-backs, to acquire legally owned firarms. Government
seems to like to put the guilt on the gun owner and his/her family
members, including the children, that firearms are bad. Generation
after generation will be will be slowly brainwashed, guns will go
unmaintained, ammuniton will corrode, and sheople will follow their
dictator.



:/

On 20 Apr 2005 06:42:34 -0700, "Halcitron" wrote:


Gunner wrote:
BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified

as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.

So far, the assault-style weapons, and .50 cals and some ammo have been
outlawed, confiscated, and destroyed. Local governments have used
tactics of buy-backs, to acquire legally owned firarms. Government
seems to like to put the guilt on the gun owner and his/her family
members, including the children, that firearms are bad. Generation
after generation will be will be slowly brainwashed, guns will go
unmaintained, ammuniton will corrode, and sheople will follow their
dictator.



:/

The assault weapons in the above article were the dreaded 70 caliber.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

Your conclusions about the gradual "phase-out" of civilian owned
weapons appears to be correct. However even more important is
the motivation and psychology of the citizens. The "right to
keep and bear arms" is of importance only if the people are
willing to do so.

An additional factor is the rapidly falling real incomes for the
typical or average citizen. I know of at least two people who
have sold their guns because then needed the money to put food on
the table for their family. The latest BLS news release shows
the trend:

(1) Real average weekly earnings [adjusted for inflation] fell by
0.3 percent from February 2005 to March 2005 after seasonal
adjustment

(2) Average weekly earnings rose by 2.6 percent, seasonally
adjusted, from
March 2004 to March 2005. After deflation by the CPI-W, average
weekly earnings
decreased by 0.5 percent.

This data does not take into account the increased work week
and/or unpaid overtime, increases in local, state and federal
taxes/fees, and reductions in retirement and medical benefits.

You can see the entire report (and much background information
and historical data) at http://www.bls.gov/bls/list.htm

GmcD
================================================== ========

On 20 Apr 2005 06:42:34 -0700, "Halcitron"
wrote:

Gunner wrote:
BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified

as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.

So far, the assault-style weapons, and .50 cals and some ammo have been
outlawed, confiscated, and destroyed. Local governments have used
tactics of buy-backs, to acquire legally owned firarms. Government
seems to like to put the guilt on the gun owner and his/her family
members, including the children, that firearms are bad. Generation
after generation will be will be slowly brainwashed, guns will go
unmaintained, ammuniton will corrode, and sheople will follow their
dictator.



:/

In article , F. George McDuffee
says...

This data does not take into account the increased work week
and/or unpaid overtime, increases in local, state and federal
taxes/fees, and reductions in retirement and medical benefits.

Nor does it take into account the recent changes in bankrupcy
laws, which make it harder for the average joe to deal with
things like massive medical debts.

The bankrupcy changes and the new OT rules brought to you by
your (republican) federal government in action.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

News Flash - April 20th

BOSTON - Responding to an urgent call from the governor of
Massachusetts, regular army and air-force units this morning descended
on the town of Lexington with M1 tanks, Apache and Blackhawk
helicopters, and a small squadron of close-support fixed wing aircraft.
The sudden, pre-dawn attack met with no effective resistance; and the
infantry that followed later in the morning completed "mopping up"
operations with astonishing speed and efficiency. A spokesman for the
military later said that the former town of Lexington, now little more
than smoking rubble, should be cool enough to bulldoze and bury within
just a few days. He also hinted that there may have been a survivor or
two among the townspeople; but that's not yet been confirmed.

At issue in this conflict is the right of civilians to keep and bear
arms. Asked for comment, the commander of the military forces would
only say that he's reluctant to discuss the political issues involved,
and prefers to concern himself with only practical matters. He said
that "Unless these civilians are willing and able to keep and bear
tanks, aircraft, and the massive pool of manpower and skill that it
takes to use those things, their 'rights' are more theoretical than
useful. If people spent as much attention to cleaning and maintaining
their voting habits and their government, rather than their rifles,
things like this might not have to happen."

Film at 11.

KG

Gunner wrote:
BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified
as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.



Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

Kirk Gordon wrote:
News Flash - April 20th

BOSTON - Responding to an urgent call from the governor of
Massachusetts, regular army and air-force units this morning
descended
on the town of Lexington with M1 tanks, Apache and Blackhawk
helicopters, and a small squadron of close-support fixed wing
aircraft.
The sudden, pre-dawn attack met with no effective resistance; and
the
infantry that followed later in the morning completed "mopping up"
operations with astonishing speed and efficiency. A spokesman for
the
military later said that the former town of Lexington, now little
more
than smoking rubble, should be cool enough to bulldoze and bury
within
just a few days. He also hinted that there may have been a survivor
or
two among the townspeople; but that's not yet been confirmed.

At issue in this conflict is the right of civilians to keep and
bear
arms. Asked for comment, the commander of the military forces would
only say that he's reluctant to discuss the political issues
involved,
and prefers to concern himself with only practical matters. He said
that "Unless these civilians are willing and able to keep and bear
tanks, aircraft, and the massive pool of manpower and skill that it
takes to use those things, their 'rights' are more theoretical than
useful. If people spent as much attention to cleaning and
maintaining
their voting habits and their government, rather than their rifles,
things like this might not have to happen."

Film at 11.

KG


The above story assumes the US military would fire on their civilians.
That might happen with a single aircraft, flying silently, and headed
for DC or any major population center.

Our military is not trained to blind unthinking obedience, but to weigh
the legality of their actions.

:/



Gunner wrote:
BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage
declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens,
has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed
the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to
secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed
assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed
out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the
extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large
supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation,
ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of
the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather
than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by
the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the
state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The
governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning
and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been
identified
as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.



Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

On 20 Apr 2005 06:42:34 -0700, "Halcitron" wrote:

Government
seems to like to put the guilt on the gun owner and his/her family
members, including the children, that firearms are bad.

Tough.
Too bad that so many are dead or in the jails.

How large a free fire zone would make you happy?

Thought you wingers were big on "personal responsibility".

Clearly this does not apply to neocons, bushs, wingers
with guns, ranting loons, liars, republicans, fundies, etc.
--
Cliff

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:45:43 -0700, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

This data does not take into account the increased work week
and/or unpaid overtime, increases in local, state and federal
taxes/fees, and reductions in retirement and medical benefits.

All of which just make winger lies that much worse.
--
Cliff

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:03:22 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:

News Flash - April 20th

BOSTON - Responding to an urgent call from the governor of
Massachusetts, regular army and air-force units this morning descended
on the town of Lexington with M1 tanks, Apache and Blackhawk
helicopters, and a small squadron of close-support fixed wing aircraft.
The sudden, pre-dawn attack met with no effective resistance; and the
infantry that followed later in the morning completed "mopping up"
operations with astonishing speed and efficiency. A spokesman for the
military later said that the former town of Lexington, now little more
than smoking rubble, should be cool enough to bulldoze and bury within
just a few days. He also hinted that there may have been a survivor or
two among the townspeople; but that's not yet been confirmed.

At issue in this conflict is the right of civilians to keep and bear
arms. Asked for comment, the commander of the military forces would
only say that he's reluctant to discuss the political issues involved,
and prefers to concern himself with only practical matters. He said
that "Unless these civilians are willing and able to keep and bear
tanks, aircraft, and the massive pool of manpower and skill that it
takes to use those things, their 'rights' are more theoretical than
useful. If people spent as much attention to cleaning and maintaining
their voting habits and their government, rather than their rifles,
things like this might not have to happen."

Film at 11.

KG

More about Saddam & Iraq later .... after any
survivors are tortured .....
--
Cliff

On 20 Apr 2005 11:15:28 -0700, "Halcitron" wrote:

Our military is not trained to blind unthinking obedience, but to weigh
the legality of their actions.

http://tinyurl.com/dcxsb
http://tinyurl.com/85jvy

[
Main Entry: [1]mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English
morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of
Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German
mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek
brotos mortal
Date: before 12th century
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice
aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous the traffic was murder b
: something outrageous or blameworthy getting away with murder
]

HTH
--
Cliff

70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!



The assault weapons in the above article were the dreaded 70 caliber.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

70 caliber! What the hell is that?

Could be a 12 ga. shotgun.

That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!

I shoot a 12 ga. often. So far - no time travel.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!

70 calibers were for wussies!

http://www.cvco.org/sigs/reg64/bess.html

"The musket was of .75 caliber, smoothbore design, and weighed about
10 lbs. Soldiers were drilled constantly on formation firing and
tactical movement, but only fired several times per year. The
effectiveness of the musket was not impressive. Major George Hanger,
who fought in the American Revolution, described it thusly: "

Strider




The assault weapons in the above article were the dreaded 70 caliber.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!



The assault weapons in the above article were the dreaded 70 caliber.

Gunner




"Brown Bess", muzzle-loading, flintlock ignition. :=)


Intrepid

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:56:16 GMT, the inscrutable Gunner
spake:


BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

--megasnip--

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified
as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.

ROTFLMAO!


================================================== =======
Save the Whales + http://www.diversify.com
Collect the whole set! + Website design and graphics
================================================== =======

Halcitron wrote:

The above story assumes the US military would fire on their civilians.
That might happen with a single aircraft, flying silently, and headed
for DC or any major population center.

Our military is not trained to blind unthinking obedience, but to weigh
the legality of their actions.


I'm sure that's true. In fact, the restraint demonstrated by US
troops under fire in Iraq seems to suggest that our military is often
just the opposite of aggressive or trigger-happy. But if civilians
fired on the military, as at Lexington, MA in 1775, the legality of the
situation might not be quite as pleasant as your average gun-toting
rebel would hope. David Koresh and company learned that lesson. And,
in a sort of slow-motion, strung out way, so did Timothy McVeigh. Those
situations didn't include military troops in the literal sense of that
term; but they still represent examples of how/why the government is
never going to be outgunned.

KG

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:25:30 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:

Halcitron wrote:

The above story assumes the US military would fire on their civilians.
That might happen with a single aircraft, flying silently, and headed
for DC or any major population center.

Our military is not trained to blind unthinking obedience, but to weigh
the legality of their actions.


I'm sure that's true. In fact, the restraint demonstrated by US
troops under fire in Iraq seems to suggest that our military is often
just the opposite of aggressive or trigger-happy. But if civilians
fired on the military, as at Lexington, MA in 1775, the legality of the
situation might not be quite as pleasant as your average gun-toting
rebel would hope. David Koresh and company learned that lesson. And,
in a sort of slow-motion, strung out way, so did Timothy McVeigh. Those
situations didn't include military troops in the literal sense of that
term; but they still represent examples of how/why the government is
never going to be outgunned.

KG

You must be joking.

Two guys in a assault Capri, with one rifle between them, just about
shut down Washington, DC.

Just let your imagination expand out of the envelope a bit and imagine
what 50 such teams might do.

Strider

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!

Its the evil assault weapon known as the Brown Bess.

http://footguards.tripod.com/01ABOUT.../01_WpBess.htm
http://footguards.tripod.com/01ABOUT...s.htm#pictures

And the folks in those days tended to be around 5' 6" tall.

(black powder firearms hardly kick)

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

Strider wrote:

I'm sure that's true. In fact, the restraint demonstrated by US
troops under fire in Iraq seems to suggest that our military is often
just the opposite of aggressive or trigger-happy. But if civilians
fired on the military, as at Lexington, MA in 1775, the legality of the
situation might not be quite as pleasant as your average gun-toting
rebel would hope. David Koresh and company learned that lesson. And,
in a sort of slow-motion, strung out way, so did Timothy McVeigh. Those
situations didn't include military troops in the literal sense of that
term; but they still represent examples of how/why the government is
never going to be outgunned.

KG


You must be joking.

Two guys in a assault Capri, with one rifle between them, just about
shut down Washington, DC.

Just let your imagination expand out of the envelope a bit and imagine
what 50 such teams might do.


It's interesting what sentiments can do to our outlook on things. If
law enforcement officials take precautions to protect against "rebels"
and the potential for danger, that's a rebel victory almost as good as
actually shutting down a national capital. But when the government
forces actually kill or imprison some of those same rebels, it's not a
victory for the government, or a serious loss for the rebel cause, since
there are lots more rebels where those came from.

If you were a chess player, I suspect you'd sacrifice your queen to
capture one of my pawns, and then claim that you'd won a great victory
by hurting me and teaching me a lesson. Sebsequent moves might
demonstrate otherwise.

KG

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 02:09:38 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:


If you were a chess player, I suspect you'd sacrifice your queen to
capture one of my pawns, and then claim that you'd won a great victory
by hurting me and teaching me a lesson. Sebsequent moves might
demonstrate otherwise.

KG

Repost from another newsgroup:

A few shots are fired at an APC, on a rainy Friday night. A tac squad
rolls to the area, which happens to be in a trendy area of downtown.
The troops are dismounted, and patrol the area. No enemy is seen. As
they remount and move out of the area, a platter charge decimates the
lead and rear vehicles. The troops dismount in disorder, and are blown
to pieces by impromtu claymores located in city sewer drains in the
curbing. The few surviving troops are shot dead by several snipers. A
silent group of men and women rush to the scene, stripping the dead of
their uniforms, arms, ammunition, and stripping the vehicles of their
crew served weapons. They remain on the scene, no more than 5 minutes,
then blend back into the background.

Repeat this scene a few dozen, or a hundred times.

As the troopers are being killed, a gunship flies overhead, powerless,
as the buildings are too tall, and to fire on the area, will decimate
the trendy buildings and businesses, which will indeed cause their
owners to turn against the military. ROEs are confusing and
contradictory...

As the troopers were being killed, their CO was eating dinner, with
the Mayor of the city in a fancy restaurant. As he raised his fork..a
168gr International enters the junction of his skull and first
vertibrate, passes though, and severly wounds his XO sitting across
the table. The investigators later determine the shooter fired from
over 600yrds away.

Repeat a few dozen times

As the trucks and APCs sit waiting in the fueling depot, a single
trooper, places charges of C4 beneith several blivits. It seems his
folks were killed by Government forces in retaliation for a rebel
attack in Ohio. The resulting explosion, 15 minutes later, decimates
the fueling depot, and incinerates 75 men and women, and destroys a
number of APCs, trucks and other vehicles. The unknown trooper is
later thought to have been incinerated , but has actually deserted,
taking his skills, training and equipment with him, and has become a
rebel.

Repeat a few dozen times.

A Reserve unit, from Tennesee, is ordered to fire on a suspected
rebel position, in the middle of a small sleepy town. They refuse.
When MPs are sent to enforce the order, the troops turn their weapons
on the MPs, and then disburse, taking their ordnance with them.

Repeat a few dozen times.

A Government leader, a strong Federalist, dead set against the Rebels,
is blown to bits while having breakfast with his family. Ordnance used
was later found to have been looted from troopers killed in an ambush,
3 weeks before.

Repeat many dozen times.

A pair of old Vietnam vets, sick, dying of cancer, hold up in a
heavily occupied office building overlooking a State capital. They are
on different floors, but are linked by FRS radios, cell phones and the
offices own phone system. They each have a 308 deer rifle, with
copious amounts of ammunition. Being well trained at one time, and
having read all the sniper manuals, have constructed their hides well,
inside of unoccupied offices. Using X10 video cameras cheaply and
commonly available, they now control the accesses to their hides, with
improvised command detonated muntitions. They keep up a reasonable
rate of fire, killing several dozen State government workers,
including the Governor, and the chief of the local Anti Rebel forces.
Attempts to storm their position, result in over 50 deaths. A gun ship
is called in, and the building is rocketed and shot to kindling,
killing a number of innocent civilians, leaving vengeful families
behind.

Repeat several hundred times.

A fast freight train, moving troops and supplies, derails over a deep
canyon in Arizona. Deep 4x4 pickup tracks are found in the area during
the investigation. The truck, found later, was stolen from a local
dealership.

Repeat several dozen times

A concerted attack on switch stations and high voltage transmission
towers throughout the Western states, causes the entire grid to go
down, leaving 85 million people without power or heat during a record
coldspell in Febuary. Munitions used were found to be stolen from
military stores, armories and also many homemade and improvised AFO
devices were indicated.

Repeat a dozen times.

Farmers in the Midwest, decide that their crops are not going to be
planted this year in protest. A wheat, potato and corn shortage
develops in the cities. Government troops are dispatched to attempt to
force farmers to plant. The various agents and troops, are not seen
or heard from again. Hogs seem to be growing well though.

Repeat a few hundred times.

Food riots break out in several inner cities, in mid summer. Heavy
handed commanders order hundreds of men, women and children to be
machine gunned. Human waves of people storm the troops, dragging them
from their vehicles and positions, and they are beaten, shot and
stabbed to death. Responding gunships are taken under fire from squad
served weapons, manned by black and latino veterans, whom recruit the
local gang members into rebel milita units, providing training, arms,
intell and direction.

Repeat in most cities.

Need I go on? Sound like a nightmare? It would be. Sound like our
current military, police and draftees could handle such a population?
Think they would win?

Never think, that a rebel force, composed of motivated, vengeful,
citizens, many of whom are trained veterans, will fight a set piece
battle against technologically superior forces in a rural area.

Most of it, will be in urban, heavily populated areas, where each
fence sitting civilian killed, will leave a legacy of revenge for
their survivors. And that revenge will be directed towards ANY
government worker, uniformed or not. Wanna bet..governmental workers
will stop showing up for work? Wanna bet. that those whom do show
up..will not be sabotaging governmental efforts to rein in the
populace? Particulary those..whose folks were burned to death, when
their apartment house was fired on by heavy weapons, to attempt to
supress a single sniper? A sniper whom turned out to be a very old
Korean war vet, with a Garand, whom lived in the building for years,
whose wife died a year before..and he has nothing to live for..except
his dimly remembered Oath..to protect and defend the Constitution,
from all enemies, foriegn and domestic?

Think long and hard, about our modern military attempting to root out
the minnows.

Read the book, Unintended Consequences, and enlarge the scale a
thousand fold.

Consider the number of Western States, already mad as hell at the
government, whom will simply take a vote, and succeed from the Union.
Think of Texas, becoming the new capital of the rebels. Think our
military can even put down a revolt OF Texas? Think again. Think B52s
and A10s, will be of any value in Cincinnati, Huston, Detroit,
Bakersfield, etc etc etc etc? Think those aircrews are gonna drop
daisy cutters on Mom, Dad, Uncle Pete? How many do you think, will
drop those daisy cutters elsewhere? DC, for sure will get pasted.
Wanna be a congress critter working there? Wanna be a congress critter
thinking about going home after a session of Congress? Knowing he/she
will be running a gauntlet, with his/her face and name well known? Not
to mention, his home and familys address well known?

Nope..this has been wargamed many many times..and its someplace none
of us wants to go..as it will make the First Civil War, look like a
rugby scrum in comparison. And the government forces will indeed loose
in the end. And the end..would be much quicker than one would think.

Never think..that the Government would win. They can't. Everytime in
our nations history, when the Constitution and the nation was
threatened..the citizens have responded against the common enemy. And
250,000,000 armed, motivated and ****ed individuals..is indeed a force
to be reckoned with.

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
- George Orwell
Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

In article , Gunner says...

Never think, that a rebel force, composed of motivated, vengeful,
citizens, many of whom are trained veterans, will fight a set piece
battle against technologically superior forces in a rural area.

Thank you. You are correct. You have just described the situation
in Iraq to within an iota.

And I do think you are correct in the domestic implications, BTW.
100%.

Jim


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==================================================
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On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, the inscrutable "Tom Miller"
spake:

The assault weapons in the above article were the dreaded 70 caliber.

Gunner

70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!

I fired a nice old rifle of similar caliber last year, though it was
from a slightly earler era than the 1774 Gunner referred to. It was a
matchlock made from a Vulcan 20mm (roughly 78 caliber) cannon barrel.

The owner/builder loaded it with a 0.8" chunk of lead after pouring a
couple ounces of powder down the hole. It kicked less than a 30.06
rifle due to the old style powder vs. the nitro powder in use today.
Cops at the range walked by and threatened to bust him for smoking
pot. (The wick was, indeed, made from hemp.) 'Twas fun to fire!


================================================== =======
What doesn't kill you + http://diversify.com
....makes you hurt more. + Web application programming
================================================== =======

Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 02:09:38 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:


If you were a chess player, I suspect you'd sacrifice your queen to
capture one of my pawns, and then claim that you'd won a great victory
by hurting me and teaching me a lesson. Sebsequent moves might
demonstrate otherwise.

KG


Repost from another newsgroup:

A few shots are fired at an APC, on a rainy Friday night.

major snip

Like I said, sentiments color our view of things.

And you're missing the point. If urban guerillas, and farmers in
the midwest, and former veterans, and military deserters, and all those
other people you mentioned, all got on the same page at the same time,
and could actually do even a tiny fraction of the stuff you describe...

Then they wouldn't need to. If that many diverse people ever even
came CLOSE to agreeing on anything at all, they'd be the biggest,
strongest, most potent voting block this country's ever seen, and they
could scrap the government without ever firing a shot. Or, if you
really don't believe in the power of voting, then all those people would
be a huge, potent, coherent economic force, and could STILL scrap and
replace the government without ever firing a shot.

And if they CAN'T all get together and agree about where to spend
their money, or how to cast their votes, then they're surely not going
to be coordinated or cooperative when it comes to something as difficult
and dangerous as armed rebellion. The most they'd accomplish would be
localized, periodic spasms of anarchy, with disparate rebel groups
spending as much time shooting at each other as they spent shooting at
police or federal troops. Take a look at Afghanistan - before the US
invasion - for a perfect example of how that works.

Or take a look at any urban area where the "drug lords" seem to have
control. Rather than getting together to drive the cops our of their
neighborhoods, so they can run things themselves, gang members kill one
another, and only occasionally shoot a cop who happens to get in the
way. That's anarchy on a pitifully small scale, but it doesn't even
come close to effective rebellion.

Of course, there ARE people who like the idea of anarchy, and who
harbor deep, unadmitted feelings of self hatred, and hatred for humanity
in general, and who like the thought of things going as wrong as
possible, just so everybody gets to hurt and bleed. In some minds,
that's better than if things go well and smoothly. That's what
terrorism is about, in some ways. I suspect it's what drives people
like Ted Kaszinski, or Tim McVeigh, or Dillon Kliebold, and others.

But just because those people exist, and sometimes get in a good
shot or two, doesn't make them any kind of real or serious threat.
Hell, 19 trained fanatics, supported by a substantial and well funded
international organization, got in the best shots ever on September 11th
of 2001; and that didn't even make a serious dent in the real stability
of our country our our government.

And, to get back to your earlier post: There were two main reasons
why those rebels at Lexington, Massachusetts didn't just die and
disappear into history's trash can. First, they DIDN'T represent just a
small band of malcontents. Their sentiments WERE consistent (for one of
the VERY few times in history) with a substantial portion (maybe even a
real majority) of the entire population of the American colonies. They
WERE in a position of power and control that the British simply didn't
realize. The fact that those rebels couldn't change their government by
voting was the only reason they had to do any shooting at all. Second,
those rebels lived in a time when the weapons available to governments
and armies were little different from what any civilian could own.
Except on the seas, where warships were a special factor, a shooting
match between redcoats and rebels was pretty much a fair fight, with the
outcome determined more by sheer numbers and determination than by
technology or armaments.

BOTH of those reasons stopped working a long, long time ago.

The world changes, Gunner. Sensible people have to change their
thoughts, or they find themselves hopelessly outgunned in the struggle
to understand and deal with reality.

"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

I'll say this again, just for effect. Sentiments color our
viewpoints. If you believe that it's dangerous and foolish for an enemy
to hurt or wound you, but to leave you alive so you can fight another
day, then what does it mean, really, if rebels only wound an armed
government, or if they only inflict localized bits of pain and
suffering, without actually crushing the government to death in the very
first encounter? I have this cartoonish vision of a military commander,
sitting atop a tank, at the head of a column of tanks that have been
gathered at the recently reclaimed Presidio. The comander spends a
moment looking over his forces. Then he watches helicopters circle in
and out of the columns of smoke rising from what used to be Oakland,
across the bay. Then he turns to survey the city of San Francisco,
spread out like a map in front of him. And when he's done looking
around, and it's time to order his troops into action, he says to
himself, and to the unseen rebels he's about to destroy, "You kicked us.
You bit us. You hurt and bloodied us. But we're still here. And
we're NOT in a good mood. You should have used suicide attacks, instead
of thinking you could fight us and win. At least if you'd committed
suicide, you wouldn't have to see what happens next."

You can dream all you want, Gunner. But rebellion is a much more
difficult, much more complex, and much more intricate game than it was a
couple centuries ago. In a way, I suspect that's WHY we feel such
reverence for those rebels from long ago. They lived in a time when
things were simpler, and when a small number of brave people COULD make
a difference with only their courage and their muskets. But making a
difference today takes much, MUCH more. It's a shame, maybe. But it's
still the truth.

KG

On 21 Apr 2005 06:47:52 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Never think, that a rebel force, composed of motivated, vengeful,
citizens, many of whom are trained veterans, will fight a set piece
battle against technologically superior forces in a rural area.

Thank you. You are correct. You have just described the situation
in Iraq to within an iota.


Indeed. On the other hand..if the non rebel citizens actively resist
the rebels...there is not a chance in hell of the rebels succeeding.
Hence one never alienates the people you hide within.

See the article the other day where the Marines heard a firelight and
found groups of regular Joe Iraqis hunting down and killing
insurgents? The trend is apparently continuing and growing all across
Iraq.

And I do think you are correct in the domestic implications, BTW.
100%.

Jim

The War College and other groups have war gamed such scenarios many
many times. For the most part..the Government always loses. Until
they removed the firearms from the citizens. Then the Government
nearly always wins.

Food for thought.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

Tom Miller wrote:
70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!


More like a rocket launcher with a stock, I suspect. Black powder
burns very slowly, compared to modern stuff. The ball accelerated
smoothly and gradually down the whole length of the bore, rather than
being blasted to velocity by a sudden explosion in the breech. The long
barrels on weapons of that type weren't just to steer the projectile in
a straight line; but also to give the powder time to explode fully, and
to get the projectile up to speed before it left. The recoil was
probably more of a push than a punch; and the weight of the weapons made
their kick even less dramatic.

KG

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:27:34 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:

Then they wouldn't need to. If that many diverse people ever even
came CLOSE to agreeing on anything at all, they'd be the biggest,
strongest, most potent voting block this country's ever seen, and they
could scrap the government without ever firing a shot. Or, if you
really don't believe in the power of voting, then all those people would
be a huge, potent, coherent economic force, and could STILL scrap and
replace the government without ever firing a shot.

Kirk..you missed the point. What if the government goes feral and
simply refuses you the right to vote?

All it would take would be a declaration of Martial Law. No elections
is one of the first steps. Suppression of dessent. Installation of
puppet leaders..IE Zone Administrators. Suspension of Habeus Corpus
and so forth. "For the duration of the emergency"

History is full of examples. Im sure you dont have to look far to find
them.

Shrug. Lets all pray to which ever deity that one may hold sacred,
that we are never faced with the need to find out which view is
correct.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 02:09:38 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:

(snips)

It's interesting what sentiments can do to our outlook on things. If
law enforcement officials take precautions to protect against "rebels"
and the potential for danger, that's a rebel victory almost as good as
actually shutting down a national capital.

In the case given, law enforcement officials didn't "take
precautions to protect against "rebels."" They flailed
around helplessly for several days (or was it weeks?)
without a clue as to how to stop the shootings. A truck
driver was most responsible for putting a stop to them. As
the previous poster accurately pointed out, make that 50
teams instead of one, and the U.S. society pretty much comes
to a halt. And law enforcement officials wouldn't be able
stop that, no matter what they did. The only reason it
hasn't already happened is that there aren't 100 such
motivated people in the U.S.

and the potential for danger But when the government
forces actually kill or imprison some of those same rebels, it's not a
victory for the government, or a serious loss for the rebel cause, since
there are lots more rebels where those came from.

You have described Fourth Generation Warfare. It's a real
bitch.

If you were a chess player, I suspect you'd sacrifice your queen to
capture one of my pawns, and then claim that you'd won a great victory
by hurting me and teaching me a lesson. Sebsequent moves might
demonstrate otherwise.

Get your analogy strait. In 4GW, the enemies don't
sacrifice queens. They throw a bunch of pawns at you and,
if they're successful, wear you down and defeat you. The
interesting twist is that the more convinced you are that
they can't do it, the more likely it is that they can.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

In article , Gunner says...

Thank you. You are correct. You have just described the situation
in Iraq to within an iota.

Indeed. On the other hand..if the non rebel citizens actively resist
the rebels...there is not a chance in hell of the rebels succeeding.
Hence one never alienates the people you hide within.

Is the majority of the iraq citizens "non-rebel?"

One could make a case the invading their country is a good
way to alienate the citizens.

Time will tell.

Jim


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In article 1114097203.ac83192e0fa808f143639af6d832f1f4@teran ews, Kirk Gordon
says...

Except on the seas, where warships were a special factor, a shooting
match between redcoats and rebels was pretty much a fair fight, with the
outcome determined more by sheer numbers and determination than by
technology or armaments.

The notion of technology and arms in historical perspective brings
to mind a recent trip I took to Fort Montgomery.

Fort Montgomery was a natural choke point on the Hudson River, where
the american forces put a chain across the river to impede british
access upstream.

The "grand battery" of the fort overlooked the choke point, and had
a good field of fire on any ships trying to get by.

There were about six cannons there, I think the bore was
between 6 and 8 inches. The fort itself is *tiny*. I think Gunner's
backyard is probably bigger. g

There were a few barracks there, some store-rooms, a powder magazine
and guardhouse. Most of the foundations are preserved, some have
been excavated. But the size of the installation is so small as
to be mind-boggling. Apparently most of the soldiers had only
part-time enlistments, many did not even live at the fort.

The cannons were apparently the apex of weaponry at the time. That
was pretty much it, aside from the soldiers rifles.
I think at the time the fort was considered to be a vital strategic
defense site.

It's a good thing the british weren't really serious about stopping
the rebellion.

Jim


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I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Robert Sturgeon
wrote back on Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:08:21 -0700 in
misc.survivalism :
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

70 caliber! What the hell is that?

Could be a 12 ga. shotgun.

.75 "caliber". I've never fired a 12 gauge with a slug or ball. That
might be "fun".

That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!
I shoot a 12 ga. often. So far - no time travel.

There is no educational value in the second time you get kicked by a
mule. Or don't hold a shotgun tight to your shoulder.

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich
"MTV may talk about lighting fires and killing children,
but Janet Reno actually does something about it." --Spy Magazine

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show "Tom Miller"
wrote back on Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000 in
misc.survivalism :
70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!

No, those "hand gon" had gone out of fashioned a couple hundred years
before, replaced by matchlocks and other new fangled gizmos as the
technology advanced. ("Wasn't like this when I was a boy.")

What he's talking about is a Short Land Musket (New Pattern) , one
each. Aka the Brown Bess (although it seems that the name was attached
after the muskets went out of service in the 1800s.) Introduced in 1768,
it was an improvement of the Long Land Musket introduced in 1722. (Imagine
if you will, a firearm five or so inches shorter than you. That was the
model 1722. The 1768 was four inches shorter, and a lot lighter in
weight.)

Properly handled, it has a sustainable rate of fire of about 2 rounds a
minute, and the standard load was 38 cartridges. (Because experience had
determined that a) after that many rounds the muzzle was so fouled it
needed cleaning" and b) you weren't likely to need any more, the battle
would be over by then.) "Improperly handled", some units could get off 4
rounds a minute. (Improperly handled means they skip some of the safety
steps.) I never managed more than three in a minute, and that was with
just blank charges.

Loud, obnoxious, messy (word to the wise: do not fire a musket directly
into the wind. Or at least don't breathe till after the smoke clears ...
), full of sound and fury, but no "kick". Comparatively.

The assault weapons in the above article were the dreaded 70 caliber.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

Rule 27: "Never be afraid to be the first to resort to violence."


pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
"MTV may talk about lighting fires and killing children,
but Janet Reno actually does something about it." --Spy Magazine

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:27:34 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:

Or, if you really don't believe in the power of voting

Gunner seems to be a Monarchist.
--
Cliff

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:27:34 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:

But just because those people exist, and sometimes get in a good
shot or two, doesn't make them any kind of real or serious threat.
Hell, 19 trained fanatics, supported by a substantial and well funded
international organization, got in the best shots ever on September 11th
of 2001; and that didn't even make a serious dent in the real stability
of our country our our government.

That's debatable.
Our cowardly "leadership" provided no leadership,
just packs of lies.
Wingers & neocons & fundies ....
--
Cliff

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:21:01 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:27:34 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:

Then they wouldn't need to. If that many diverse people ever even
came CLOSE to agreeing on anything at all, they'd be the biggest,
strongest, most potent voting block this country's ever seen, and they
could scrap the government without ever firing a shot. Or, if you
really don't believe in the power of voting, then all those people would
be a huge, potent, coherent economic force, and could STILL scrap and
replace the government without ever firing a shot.

Kirk..you missed the point. What if the government goes feral and
simply refuses you the right to vote?

All it would take would be a declaration of Martial Law. No elections
is one of the first steps. Suppression of dessent. Installation of
puppet leaders..IE Zone Administrators. Suspension of Habeus Corpus
and so forth. "For the duration of the emergency"

History is full of examples. Im sure you dont have to look far to find
them.

Just look at Herr shrubbie & the neocons ... right, gummer?
--
Cliff

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Gunner
wrote back on Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:05:26 GMT
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On 21 Apr 2005 06:47:52 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Never think, that a rebel force, composed of motivated, vengeful,
citizens, many of whom are trained veterans, will fight a set piece
battle against technologically superior forces in a rural area.

Thank you. You are correct. You have just described the situation
in Iraq to within an iota.


Indeed. On the other hand..if the non rebel citizens actively resist
the rebels...there is not a chance in hell of the rebels succeeding.
Hence one never alienates the people you hide within.

It's a standard bell curve. Five sigmas over from mu are the "active
participants", four sigmas over are the active supporters, 3: the passive
supporters, and two sigs either side of mu, could care less. The trick is
to get the curve to move one sigma in your direction. So that their
support falls off, and your's increases. It is a small percentile shift,
more than a massive transformation. That is to say, fewer of their active
participants want to participate, but they'll still support them, fewer of
their active supporters continue to be active, some of their passive
support becomes "undecided", while some of the undecided become your
passive support, your passive supporters become active, and some of your
active supporters become participants. Politics, revolutions, wars, sales
campaigns, all follow this basic outline.


See the article the other day where the Marines heard a firelight and
found groups of regular Joe Iraqis hunting down and killing
insurgents? The trend is apparently continuing and growing all across
Iraq.

The Iraqis know they are now more in control, and are moving on that
bell curve to "Iraqi Nationalism", where "at worse", they are indifferent
to what the government does, because they know it won't hurt them.

And I do think you are correct in the domestic implications, BTW.
100%.

Jim

The War College and other groups have war gamed such scenarios many
many times. For the most part..the Government always loses. Until
they removed the firearms from the citizens. Then the Government
nearly always wins.

Food for thought.

I'm not very hungry, for some reason.

I can war game it in my head. It won't be pretty, it won't be
televised, and no matter what the outcome is called, or who 'wins', it
won't be the Republic which I was born into. (Not that this is exactly the
Republic I was born into, either, but that is a different issue.)


tschus
pyotr




--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:58:04 -0700, Robert Sturgeon
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 02:09:38 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:

(snips)

It's interesting what sentiments can do to our outlook on things. If
law enforcement officials take precautions to protect against "rebels"
and the potential for danger, that's a rebel victory almost as good as
actually shutting down a national capital.

In the case given, law enforcement officials didn't "take
precautions to protect against "rebels."" They flailed
around helplessly for several days (or was it weeks?)
without a clue as to how to stop the shootings. A truck
driver was most responsible for putting a stop to them. As
the previous poster accurately pointed out, make that 50
teams instead of one, and the U.S. society pretty much comes
to a halt.

IF you were correct then clearly "terrorists" are of little
threat as it did not happen G.
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

snip


IF you were correct then clearly "terrorists" are of little
threat as it did not happen G.
--
Cliff

Your theory assumes that the scenario has reached a conclusion. This
scenario has a time scale of years, not days or months.

Pete C.

On 21 Apr 2005 10:03:32 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Thank you. You are correct. You have just described the situation
in Iraq to within an iota.

Indeed. On the other hand..if the non rebel citizens actively resist
the rebels...there is not a chance in hell of the rebels succeeding.
Hence one never alienates the people you hide within.

Is the majority of the iraq citizens "non-rebel?"

Yes indeed. Read the polls that have been done by independant sources.

One could make a case the invading their country is a good
way to alienate the citizens.

One could. But it wouldnt be true for them all.

Time will tell.

Jim

Indeed.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"