BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified
as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.



Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

Gunner wrote:
BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified

as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.



Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

Gunner wrote:
BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified

as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.

So far, the assault-style weapons, and .50 cals and some ammo have been
outlawed, confiscated, and destroyed. Local governments have used
tactics of buy-backs, to acquire legally owned firarms. Government
seems to like to put the guilt on the gun owner and his/her family
members, including the children, that firearms are bad. Generation
after generation will be will be slowly brainwashed, guns will go
unmaintained, ammuniton will corrode, and sheople will follow their
dictator.



:/

On 20 Apr 2005 06:42:34 -0700, "Halcitron" wrote:


Gunner wrote:
BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified

as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.

So far, the assault-style weapons, and .50 cals and some ammo have been
outlawed, confiscated, and destroyed. Local governments have used
tactics of buy-backs, to acquire legally owned firarms. Government
seems to like to put the guilt on the gun owner and his/her family
members, including the children, that firearms are bad. Generation
after generation will be will be slowly brainwashed, guns will go
unmaintained, ammuniton will corrode, and sheople will follow their
dictator.



:/

The assault weapons in the above article were the dreaded 70 caliber.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!



The assault weapons in the above article were the dreaded 70 caliber.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

70 caliber! What the hell is that?

Could be a 12 ga. shotgun.

That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!

I shoot a 12 ga. often. So far - no time travel.

--
Robert Sturgeon
Summum ius summa inuria.
http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge/

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show Robert Sturgeon
wrote back on Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:08:21 -0700 in
misc.survivalism :
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

70 caliber! What the hell is that?

Could be a 12 ga. shotgun.

.75 "caliber". I've never fired a 12 gauge with a slug or ball. That
might be "fun".

That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!
I shoot a 12 ga. often. So far - no time travel.

There is no educational value in the second time you get kicked by a
mule. Or don't hold a shotgun tight to your shoulder.

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich
"MTV may talk about lighting fires and killing children,
but Janet Reno actually does something about it." --Spy Magazine

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!

70 calibers were for wussies!

http://www.cvco.org/sigs/reg64/bess.html

"The musket was of .75 caliber, smoothbore design, and weighed about
10 lbs. Soldiers were drilled constantly on formation firing and
tactical movement, but only fired several times per year. The
effectiveness of the musket was not impressive. Major George Hanger,
who fought in the American Revolution, described it thusly: "

Strider




The assault weapons in the above article were the dreaded 70 caliber.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!



The assault weapons in the above article were the dreaded 70 caliber.

Gunner




"Brown Bess", muzzle-loading, flintlock ignition. :=)


Intrepid

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!

Its the evil assault weapon known as the Brown Bess.

http://footguards.tripod.com/01ABOUT.../01_WpBess.htm
http://footguards.tripod.com/01ABOUT...s.htm#pictures

And the folks in those days tended to be around 5' 6" tall.

(black powder firearms hardly kick)

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 04:04:15 GMT, Gunner
said:

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, "Tom Miller"
wrote:

70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!

Its the evil assault weapon known as the Brown Bess.

http://footguards.tripod.com/01ABOUT.../01_WpBess.htm
http://footguards.tripod.com/01ABOUT...s.htm#pictures

And the folks in those days tended to be around 5' 6" tall.

(black powder firearms hardly kick)


Yup, it's more like a sudden shove. Black powder takes longer to burn
than modern powders. A cannon with 2-3 pounds of powder is a whole
differnt matter.

n.

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000, the inscrutable "Tom Miller"
spake:

The assault weapons in the above article were the dreaded 70 caliber.

Gunner

70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!

I fired a nice old rifle of similar caliber last year, though it was
from a slightly earler era than the 1774 Gunner referred to. It was a
matchlock made from a Vulcan 20mm (roughly 78 caliber) cannon barrel.

The owner/builder loaded it with a 0.8" chunk of lead after pouring a
couple ounces of powder down the hole. It kicked less than a 30.06
rifle due to the old style powder vs. the nitro powder in use today.
Cops at the range walked by and threatened to bust him for smoking
pot. (The wick was, indeed, made from hemp.) 'Twas fun to fire!


================================================== =======
What doesn't kill you + http://diversify.com
....makes you hurt more. + Web application programming
================================================== =======

Tom Miller wrote:
70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!


More like a rocket launcher with a stock, I suspect. Black powder
burns very slowly, compared to modern stuff. The ball accelerated
smoothly and gradually down the whole length of the bore, rather than
being blasted to velocity by a sudden explosion in the breech. The long
barrels on weapons of that type weren't just to steer the projectile in
a straight line; but also to give the powder time to explode fully, and
to get the projectile up to speed before it left. The recoil was
probably more of a push than a punch; and the weight of the weapons made
their kick even less dramatic.

KG

I missed the staff meeting but the minutes show "Tom Miller"
wrote back on Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:20:23 +1000 in
misc.survivalism :
70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a stock!

No, those "hand gon" had gone out of fashioned a couple hundred years
before, replaced by matchlocks and other new fangled gizmos as the
technology advanced. ("Wasn't like this when I was a boy.")

What he's talking about is a Short Land Musket (New Pattern) , one
each. Aka the Brown Bess (although it seems that the name was attached
after the muskets went out of service in the 1800s.) Introduced in 1768,
it was an improvement of the Long Land Musket introduced in 1722. (Imagine
if you will, a firearm five or so inches shorter than you. That was the
model 1722. The 1768 was four inches shorter, and a lot lighter in
weight.)

Properly handled, it has a sustainable rate of fire of about 2 rounds a
minute, and the standard load was 38 cartridges. (Because experience had
determined that a) after that many rounds the muzzle was so fouled it
needed cleaning" and b) you weren't likely to need any more, the battle
would be over by then.) "Improperly handled", some units could get off 4
rounds a minute. (Improperly handled means they skip some of the safety
steps.) I never managed more than three in a minute, and that was with
just blank charges.

Loud, obnoxious, messy (word to the wise: do not fire a musket directly
into the wind. Or at least don't breathe till after the smoke clears ...
), full of sound and fury, but no "kick". Comparatively.

The assault weapons in the above article were the dreaded 70 caliber.

Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

Rule 27: "Never be afraid to be the first to resort to violence."


pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
"MTV may talk about lighting fires and killing children,
but Janet Reno actually does something about it." --Spy Magazine

"Tom Miller" wrote in message
...
70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a
stock!

The French made a .70-cal (roughly; it was metric) anti-tank, shoulder-fired
rifle during WWI. I suspect most shooters didn't actually put it up against
their shoulders, however. g

When I was a kid living in Maryland I used to love to go down to a couple of
museums on the Eastern Shore, where they had about a half-dozen of those
"punt guns" that were used to shoot an entire flock of ducks with one shot.
The bore varied but I remember several of them around 2" (.200 caliber) or
more, with barrels maybe 12 feet long and a regular, very fat shoulder
stock.

For years I was amazed that anyone could shoot a cannon like that until I
saw a painting of one in use. The whole punt was a sort of cannon carriage.
There was a raised V-notch at the bow end, in which the barrel rested. And
mounted to the transom was a very thick, heavily braced plank that extended
up a foot or two above the gunwales. The butt end of the stock rested
against that, while the shooter actually wrapped his arm around the
buttstock.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:02:48 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Tom Miller" wrote in message
...
70 caliber! What the hell is that? That's nearly 18 mm. It would kick you
into the middle of next week to fire it. That's just a cannon with a
stock!

The French made a .70-cal (roughly; it was metric) anti-tank, shoulder-fired
rifle during WWI. I suspect most shooters didn't actually put it up against
their shoulders, however. g

When I was a kid living in Maryland I used to love to go down to a couple of
museums on the Eastern Shore, where they had about a half-dozen of those
"punt guns" that were used to shoot an entire flock of ducks with one shot.
The bore varied but I remember several of them around 2" (.200 caliber) or
more, with barrels maybe 12 feet long and a regular, very fat shoulder
stock.

That would be a 2 gauge shotgun, not a .200 caliber rifle. ;-)

Strider


For years I was amazed that anyone could shoot a cannon like that until I
saw a painting of one in use. The whole punt was a sort of cannon carriage.
There was a raised V-notch at the bow end, in which the barrel rested. And
mounted to the transom was a very thick, heavily braced plank that extended
up a foot or two above the gunwales. The butt end of the stock rested
against that, while the shooter actually wrapped his arm around the
buttstock.

Ed Huntress wrote:


When I was a kid living in Maryland I used to love to go down to a couple of
museums on the Eastern Shore, where they had about a half-dozen of those
"punt guns" that were used to shoot an entire flock of ducks with one shot.
The bore varied but I remember several of them around 2" (.200 caliber) or
more, with barrels maybe 12 feet long and a regular, very fat shoulder
stock.

Ed:

Wouldn't a 2" diameter be 2.00 caliber, not .200 caliber?

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Your conclusions about the gradual "phase-out" of civilian owned
weapons appears to be correct. However even more important is
the motivation and psychology of the citizens. The "right to
keep and bear arms" is of importance only if the people are
willing to do so.

An additional factor is the rapidly falling real incomes for the
typical or average citizen. I know of at least two people who
have sold their guns because then needed the money to put food on
the table for their family. The latest BLS news release shows
the trend:

(1) Real average weekly earnings [adjusted for inflation] fell by
0.3 percent from February 2005 to March 2005 after seasonal
adjustment

(2) Average weekly earnings rose by 2.6 percent, seasonally
adjusted, from
March 2004 to March 2005. After deflation by the CPI-W, average
weekly earnings
decreased by 0.5 percent.

This data does not take into account the increased work week
and/or unpaid overtime, increases in local, state and federal
taxes/fees, and reductions in retirement and medical benefits.

You can see the entire report (and much background information
and historical data) at http://www.bls.gov/bls/list.htm

GmcD
================================================== ========

On 20 Apr 2005 06:42:34 -0700, "Halcitron"
wrote:

Gunner wrote:
BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified

as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.

So far, the assault-style weapons, and .50 cals and some ammo have been
outlawed, confiscated, and destroyed. Local governments have used
tactics of buy-backs, to acquire legally owned firarms. Government
seems to like to put the guilt on the gun owner and his/her family
members, including the children, that firearms are bad. Generation
after generation will be will be slowly brainwashed, guns will go
unmaintained, ammuniton will corrode, and sheople will follow their
dictator.



:/

In article , F. George McDuffee
says...

This data does not take into account the increased work week
and/or unpaid overtime, increases in local, state and federal
taxes/fees, and reductions in retirement and medical benefits.

Nor does it take into account the recent changes in bankrupcy
laws, which make it harder for the average joe to deal with
things like massive medical debts.

The bankrupcy changes and the new OT rules brought to you by
your (republican) federal government in action.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:45:43 -0700, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

This data does not take into account the increased work week
and/or unpaid overtime, increases in local, state and federal
taxes/fees, and reductions in retirement and medical benefits.

All of which just make winger lies that much worse.
--
Cliff

On 20 Apr 2005 06:42:34 -0700, "Halcitron" wrote:

Government
seems to like to put the guilt on the gun owner and his/her family
members, including the children, that firearms are bad.

Tough.
Too bad that so many are dead or in the jails.

How large a free fire zone would make you happy?

Thought you wingers were big on "personal responsibility".

Clearly this does not apply to neocons, bushs, wingers
with guns, ranting loons, liars, republicans, fundies, etc.
--
Cliff

News Flash - April 20th

BOSTON - Responding to an urgent call from the governor of
Massachusetts, regular army and air-force units this morning descended
on the town of Lexington with M1 tanks, Apache and Blackhawk
helicopters, and a small squadron of close-support fixed wing aircraft.
The sudden, pre-dawn attack met with no effective resistance; and the
infantry that followed later in the morning completed "mopping up"
operations with astonishing speed and efficiency. A spokesman for the
military later said that the former town of Lexington, now little more
than smoking rubble, should be cool enough to bulldoze and bury within
just a few days. He also hinted that there may have been a survivor or
two among the townspeople; but that's not yet been confirmed.

At issue in this conflict is the right of civilians to keep and bear
arms. Asked for comment, the commander of the military forces would
only say that he's reluctant to discuss the political issues involved,
and prefers to concern himself with only practical matters. He said
that "Unless these civilians are willing and able to keep and bear
tanks, aircraft, and the massive pool of manpower and skill that it
takes to use those things, their 'rights' are more theoretical than
useful. If people spent as much attention to cleaning and maintaining
their voting habits and their government, rather than their rifles,
things like this might not have to happen."

Film at 11.

KG

Gunner wrote:
BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified
as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.



Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

Kirk Gordon wrote:
News Flash - April 20th

BOSTON - Responding to an urgent call from the governor of
Massachusetts, regular army and air-force units this morning
descended
on the town of Lexington with M1 tanks, Apache and Blackhawk
helicopters, and a small squadron of close-support fixed wing
aircraft.
The sudden, pre-dawn attack met with no effective resistance; and
the
infantry that followed later in the morning completed "mopping up"
operations with astonishing speed and efficiency. A spokesman for
the
military later said that the former town of Lexington, now little
more
than smoking rubble, should be cool enough to bulldoze and bury
within
just a few days. He also hinted that there may have been a survivor
or
two among the townspeople; but that's not yet been confirmed.

At issue in this conflict is the right of civilians to keep and
bear
arms. Asked for comment, the commander of the military forces would
only say that he's reluctant to discuss the political issues
involved,
and prefers to concern himself with only practical matters. He said
that "Unless these civilians are willing and able to keep and bear
tanks, aircraft, and the massive pool of manpower and skill that it
takes to use those things, their 'rights' are more theoretical than
useful. If people spent as much attention to cleaning and
maintaining
their voting habits and their government, rather than their rifles,
things like this might not have to happen."

Film at 11.

KG


The above story assumes the US military would fire on their civilians.
That might happen with a single aircraft, flying silently, and headed
for DC or any major population center.

Our military is not trained to blind unthinking obedience, but to weigh
the legality of their actions.

:/



Gunner wrote:
BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage
declared
that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens,
has
links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed
the
extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against
internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals,"
issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any
individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to
secure
law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread
refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed
assault
weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and
ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in
early April between government and military leaders at which the
governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One
government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed
out
that "none of these people would have been killed had the
extremists
obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large
supply
of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to
seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from
heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the
government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard
Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation,
ordered
the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse
was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of
the
right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing
exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather
than
the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be
restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon
the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by
the
armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the
state/national
joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The
governor
has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning
and
leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been
identified
as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.



Gunner

Rule #35
"That which does not kill you,
has made a huge tactical error"

On 20 Apr 2005 11:15:28 -0700, "Halcitron" wrote:

Our military is not trained to blind unthinking obedience, but to weigh
the legality of their actions.

http://tinyurl.com/dcxsb
http://tinyurl.com/85jvy

[
Main Entry: [1]mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English
morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of
Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German
mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek
brotos mortal
Date: before 12th century
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice
aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous the traffic was murder b
: something outrageous or blameworthy getting away with murder
]

HTH
--
Cliff

Halcitron wrote:

The above story assumes the US military would fire on their civilians.
That might happen with a single aircraft, flying silently, and headed
for DC or any major population center.

Our military is not trained to blind unthinking obedience, but to weigh
the legality of their actions.


I'm sure that's true. In fact, the restraint demonstrated by US
troops under fire in Iraq seems to suggest that our military is often
just the opposite of aggressive or trigger-happy. But if civilians
fired on the military, as at Lexington, MA in 1775, the legality of the
situation might not be quite as pleasant as your average gun-toting
rebel would hope. David Koresh and company learned that lesson. And,
in a sort of slow-motion, strung out way, so did Timothy McVeigh. Those
situations didn't include military troops in the literal sense of that
term; but they still represent examples of how/why the government is
never going to be outgunned.

KG

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:25:30 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:

Halcitron wrote:

The above story assumes the US military would fire on their civilians.
That might happen with a single aircraft, flying silently, and headed
for DC or any major population center.

Our military is not trained to blind unthinking obedience, but to weigh
the legality of their actions.


I'm sure that's true. In fact, the restraint demonstrated by US
troops under fire in Iraq seems to suggest that our military is often
just the opposite of aggressive or trigger-happy. But if civilians
fired on the military, as at Lexington, MA in 1775, the legality of the
situation might not be quite as pleasant as your average gun-toting
rebel would hope. David Koresh and company learned that lesson. And,
in a sort of slow-motion, strung out way, so did Timothy McVeigh. Those
situations didn't include military troops in the literal sense of that
term; but they still represent examples of how/why the government is
never going to be outgunned.

KG

You must be joking.

Two guys in a assault Capri, with one rifle between them, just about
shut down Washington, DC.

Just let your imagination expand out of the envelope a bit and imagine
what 50 such teams might do.

Strider

Strider wrote:

I'm sure that's true. In fact, the restraint demonstrated by US
troops under fire in Iraq seems to suggest that our military is often
just the opposite of aggressive or trigger-happy. But if civilians
fired on the military, as at Lexington, MA in 1775, the legality of the
situation might not be quite as pleasant as your average gun-toting
rebel would hope. David Koresh and company learned that lesson. And,
in a sort of slow-motion, strung out way, so did Timothy McVeigh. Those
situations didn't include military troops in the literal sense of that
term; but they still represent examples of how/why the government is
never going to be outgunned.

KG


You must be joking.

Two guys in a assault Capri, with one rifle between them, just about
shut down Washington, DC.

Just let your imagination expand out of the envelope a bit and imagine
what 50 such teams might do.


It's interesting what sentiments can do to our outlook on things. If
law enforcement officials take precautions to protect against "rebels"
and the potential for danger, that's a rebel victory almost as good as
actually shutting down a national capital. But when the government
forces actually kill or imprison some of those same rebels, it's not a
victory for the government, or a serious loss for the rebel cause, since
there are lots more rebels where those came from.

If you were a chess player, I suspect you'd sacrifice your queen to
capture one of my pawns, and then claim that you'd won a great victory
by hurting me and teaching me a lesson. Sebsequent moves might
demonstrate otherwise.

KG

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:03:22 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:

News Flash - April 20th

BOSTON - Responding to an urgent call from the governor of
Massachusetts, regular army and air-force units this morning descended
on the town of Lexington with M1 tanks, Apache and Blackhawk
helicopters, and a small squadron of close-support fixed wing aircraft.
The sudden, pre-dawn attack met with no effective resistance; and the
infantry that followed later in the morning completed "mopping up"
operations with astonishing speed and efficiency. A spokesman for the
military later said that the former town of Lexington, now little more
than smoking rubble, should be cool enough to bulldoze and bury within
just a few days. He also hinted that there may have been a survivor or
two among the townspeople; but that's not yet been confirmed.

At issue in this conflict is the right of civilians to keep and bear
arms. Asked for comment, the commander of the military forces would
only say that he's reluctant to discuss the political issues involved,
and prefers to concern himself with only practical matters. He said
that "Unless these civilians are willing and able to keep and bear
tanks, aircraft, and the massive pool of manpower and skill that it
takes to use those things, their 'rights' are more theoretical than
useful. If people spent as much attention to cleaning and maintaining
their voting habits and their government, rather than their rifles,
things like this might not have to happen."

Film at 11.

KG

More about Saddam & Iraq later .... after any
survivors are tortured .....
--
Cliff

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:56:16 GMT, the inscrutable Gunner
spake:


BOSTON, - Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache
of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by
elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law
enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20
injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

--megasnip--

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified
as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.

ROTFLMAO!


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