I just finished about 30 sq feet of the bathroom tiles installed
directly over sheet lino. Before I grouted it, I walked over the
tiles and everything seems fine. Then I grouted it with sanded grout
and afterwards I could hear slight noise when I stepped on the tiles.

The noise is like that the tiles are now pushing against the grout,
like the edge of the tiles is rubbing against the grout. If the tiles
won't crack, I could care less about the noise but I don't know for
sure if I want to finish up the other 1/2 of the bathroom anymore.

When I tiled, I put the thinset at the back of the tiles instead of on
the floor itself, don't know if that would make a difference or not.

Thanks.

wrote:
I just finished about 30 sq feet of the bathroom tiles installed
directly over sheet lino. Before I grouted it, I walked over the
tiles and everything seems fine. Then I grouted it with sanded grout
and afterwards I could hear slight noise when I stepped on the tiles.

The noise is like that the tiles are now pushing against the grout,
like the edge of the tiles is rubbing against the grout. If the tiles
won't crack, I could care less about the noise but I don't know for
sure if I want to finish up the other 1/2 of the bathroom anymore.

Not likely that the tiles will crack but the grout will. Why? Because
the tiles are moving? Why? Because the tiles aren't well bedded and
thinset won't stick to the lino/vinyl. You should have bedded them with
mastic instead of thinset. Either that or put down - and mechanically
fastened - cement board on top of the lino/vinyl.

Rip up what you did and do it right.

--
dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Why didn't you just rip up the linoleum? It only takes about 5 minutes
to pull up.


dadiOH wrote:
wrote:
I just finished about 30 sq feet of the bathroom tiles installed
directly over sheet lino. Before I grouted it, I walked over the
tiles and everything seems fine. Then I grouted it with sanded
grout
and afterwards I could hear slight noise when I stepped on the
tiles.

The noise is like that the tiles are now pushing against the grout,
like the edge of the tiles is rubbing against the grout. If the
tiles
won't crack, I could care less about the noise but I don't know for
sure if I want to finish up the other 1/2 of the bathroom anymore.

Not likely that the tiles will crack but the grout will. Why?
Because
the tiles are moving? Why? Because the tiles aren't well bedded and
thinset won't stick to the lino/vinyl. You should have bedded them
with
mastic instead of thinset. Either that or put down - and
mechanically
fastened - cement board on top of the lino/vinyl.

Rip up what you did and do it right.

--
dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Why anybody attempts to put tile over anything but a solid floor proper
always suprises me

One time I put down tile before the subfloor went in. Then I had the
housewarming party! Talk about embarrasing!!!! My family still isnt
talking to me. The ones still alive, I mean.

wrote in message
...
I just finished about 30 sq feet of the bathroom tiles installed
directly over sheet lino. Before I grouted it, I walked over the
tiles and everything seems fine. Then I grouted it with sanded grout
and afterwards I could hear slight noise when I stepped on the tiles.

The noise is like that the tiles are now pushing against the grout,
like the edge of the tiles is rubbing against the grout. If the tiles
won't crack, I could care less about the noise but I don't know for
sure if I want to finish up the other 1/2 of the bathroom anymore.

When I tiled, I put the thinset at the back of the tiles instead of on
the floor itself, don't know if that would make a difference or not.

Thanks.



You will be tearing that job up soon. You can't put tile over linoleum. I
always prefer to see it on mesh and mud or at least one of the backer board
products ...gosh...even plywood would be better. You need a very stable
backing to apply tile because it is brittle and will crack either the tiles
or the grout if it is flexible.....good luck...Ross

On 23 Feb 2005 09:09:52 -0800, "Mike" wrote:

Why didn't you just rip up the linoleum? It only takes about 5 minutes
to pull up.

Because I talked to people, did research on website etc and came to
the conclusion that it's not only OK but could be potentially
beneficial to install tiles over lino. In fact, a contractor
neighbour of mine was installing tiles over lino in his house a few
months ago.

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:24:30 -0500, "dadiOH" wrote:

Not likely that the tiles will crack but the grout will. Why? Because
the tiles are moving? Why? Because the tiles aren't well bedded and
thinset won't stick to the lino/vinyl. You should have bedded them with
mastic instead of thinset. Either that or put down - and mechanically
fastened - cement board on top of the lino/vinyl.

Rip up what you did and do it right.

What's the difference between mastic and thinset? Also, if I install
the orange Shuluter sheet on the other half of the bathroom, would it
help to eliminate the problem? Thanks.

wrote:
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:24:30 -0500, "dadiOH" wrote:

Not likely that the tiles will crack but the grout will. Why?
Because the tiles are moving? Why? Because the tiles aren't well
bedded and thinset won't stick to the lino/vinyl. You should have
bedded them with mastic instead of thinset. Either that or put down
- and mechanically fastened - cement board on top of the lino/vinyl.

Rip up what you did and do it right.

What's the difference between mastic and thinset?

Thinset is cementatious, mastic is organic...it's the stuff you paste
down vinyl with.
____________________

Also, if I install
the orange Shuluter sheet on the other half of the bathroom, would it
help to eliminate the problem? Thanks.

I have no idea what orange Shuluter sheet is but I rather doubt it.
Unless it is cementatious so thinset will bond. But your best
alternative is to rip up everything including the sheet goods, put down
cement board properly and re-tile. Hell, you only have 30 sq.ft.
down...

--
dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

wrote in message
...
Because I talked to people, did research on website etc and came to
the conclusion that it's not only OK but could be potentially
beneficial to install tiles over lino. In fact, a contractor
neighbour of mine was installing tiles over lino in his house a few
months ago.


IMO, you talked to the wrong people. No where have I seen a recommendation
to place CT over vinyl using thinset. As a last resort where no other
option exists you might do it using mastic or an epoxy compound. Even then
you are doing the installation at your own risk.

Live with a mess for as long as you live there or rip it out and do it
right. If you are like most of us, the expense and effort to rip it out will
only hurt one time and will be forgotten within a couple of weeks. Living
with the mess you have created will be a continuing saga.

Best wishes,


Colbyt

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:24:30 -0500, "dadiOH" wrote:

Not likely that the tiles will crack but the grout will. Why? Because
the tiles are moving? Why? Because the tiles aren't well bedded and
thinset won't stick to the lino/vinyl. You should have bedded them with
mastic instead of thinset. Either that or put down - and mechanically
fastened - cement board on top of the lino/vinyl.

Rip up what you did and do it right.

What's the difference between mastic and thinset? Also, if I install
the orange Shuluter sheet on the other half of the bathroom, would it
help to eliminate the problem? Thanks.

Do what others recommend. Pull up everything. I would pull up the lino
too. Then put down a backer board such as Hardibacker. I had contractors
say they could lay over lino but my experience is that you will eventually
have troubles.

My daughter bought a house that had a new ceramic over lino in the kitchen.
It was about 10 years after they moved in that one of the kids dropped
something heavy and cracked a tile. When they started to clean up the
broken tile the ones around it came loose too. To fix it they first had to
be very careful not to dislodge nearby tile. Then they had to relay about a
dozen tile.

After putting down my floor over Hardibacker I wanted to replace one of the
tile that had a little chip in it. I had to use a heavy chisel and mallet
to get it loose.

Bottom line is that you can get away laying on lino but eventually it will
come loose. Now if you want a floor that can be easily removed 5 or 10
years from now I suppose over lino would be the way.

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:46:24 GMT, wrote:

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:24:30 -0500, "dadiOH" wrote:

Not likely that the tiles will crack but the grout will. Why? Because
the tiles are moving? Why? Because the tiles aren't well bedded and
thinset won't stick to the lino/vinyl. You should have bedded them with
mastic instead of thinset. Either that or put down - and mechanically
fastened - cement board on top of the lino/vinyl.

Rip up what you did and do it right.

What's the difference between mastic and thinset? Also, if I install
the orange Shuluter sheet on the other half of the bathroom, would it
help to eliminate the problem? Thanks.

Think of the mastic as "glue", aka "tile adhesive". Think of thinset
as "mortar", (as in bricks & mortar) or similar to concrete without
the aggregate (rock/stone) and a finer sand in the mix.

Try this experiment: take a small blob of your thinset mix and place
it on the surface of the vinyl. Let it dry completely then see how
much it really adhered to the surface. My guess is not much. Next, try
roughing up the vinyl surface first, see if you gain any adhesion.

Even if it does "fasten" the tile to it, some vinyl is fairly soft and
"cushy", comfortable under foot but not necessarily a good base on
which to secure tile. Tile, probably more than most types of flooring,
needs a rigid base, once it starts moving it will crack the grout
lines first and then the tiles themselves will crack and/or become
loose if there is enough movement.

I am but a home handyman these days, although in the past I've worked
in the construction trades (plumbing, electrical,
landscape/fence/sprinkler, general remodeling). I've done several tile
jobs for myself including floors, counters, backsplash, bath/shower
surrounds.

If this were my job and I cared about it's quality and longevity, I'd
do as others have suggested, tear up the already intalle d tile and
lay down a proper base. At the very least I'd use mastic after
scuffing off the shiny top layer of the vinyl. If it is brand new and
is already making noise from movement, how long do you think it will
be until total failure?

DJ

What website said this was OK? I
would never do such a thing (even with a mastic).
Just because a contractor does it, does not mean
it's OK. My guess is your neighbor will be having his
tiles come loose also.

What benefit did you expect to realize? As you found out
the linolium is not a good surface to bond to and being the
anal type, I dont like another bond between my tile and
structually sound material

wrote in message
oups.com...
What website said this was OK? I
would never do such a thing (even with a mastic).
Just because a contractor does it, does not mean
it's OK. My guess is your neighbor will be having his
tiles come loose also.

What benefit did you expect to realize? As you found out
the linolium is not a good surface to bond to and being the
anal type, I dont like another bond between my tile and
structually sound material


I will add if you go with Hardibacker it will be a firm base. That is about
the hardest material I have ever worked with. I put down the 1/4 inch
stuff. I planned to use self-tapping screws. They wouldn't tap. If I
wanted to use them I would have had to do countersinks. Instead I went with
what a guy at Home Depot recommended and that was putting down galvanized
roofing nails (1 5/8"?). With one of them every six inches in every
direction that backer board isn't going anywhere. The only problem is that
you raise the floor another 1/4 inch for a total over 1/2 inch. You may
have to trim some doors.

Rich wrote:


I will add if you go with Hardibacker it will be a firm base. That is about
the hardest material I have ever worked with. I put down the 1/4 inch
stuff. I planned to use self-tapping screws. They wouldn't tap. If I
wanted to use them I would have had to do countersinks. Instead I went with
what a guy at Home Depot recommended and that was putting down galvanized
roofing nails (1 5/8"?). With one of them every six inches in every
direction that backer board isn't going anywhere. The only problem is that
you raise the floor another 1/4 inch for a total over 1/2 inch. You may
have to trim some doors.



Yeah you need a really powerful powerdriver (18V) to get those screws
in. Even then it's a bitch. I used the nails (as well as screws), with
good result, although I would warn any user that on a wall, pounding
those nails in can be quite an intense assult on any opposing wall-like
if the wall you are installing on sits opposite a room/hallway wall. I
had to resink some old drywall anils, and then remud.

wrote:
I just finished about 30 sq feet of the bathroom tiles installed
directly over sheet lino. Before I grouted it, I walked over the
tiles and everything seems fine. Then I grouted it with sanded grout
and afterwards I could hear slight noise when I stepped on the tiles.

The noise is like that the tiles are now pushing against the grout,
like the edge of the tiles is rubbing against the grout. If the tiles
won't crack, I could care less about the noise but I don't know for
sure if I want to finish up the other 1/2 of the bathroom anymore.

When I tiled, I put the thinset at the back of the tiles instead of on
the floor itself, don't know if that would make a difference or not.

Thanks.


to reiterate what everone else said: it is a nightmare, and it began
when ou decided to install it over linoleum. Everything I have every
read/heard/been instructed on has told me the most important (initial)
aspect of tile installation is the substrate. You need an extremely
rigid surface. One that holds its structure in moist/wet conditions is
also very important (e.g. hardibacker). Perhaps that is why you heard
linoleum would be a good surface? Since it doenst disinigrate in moist
conditions? But overall it should be a terrible surface for tile
instalation, -especially- with thinset. Thinset will not adhere to
linoleum worth squat, so I would bet you those tiles are probably
already floating on the linoleum.

IMHO you -could- intall hardibacker over the linoleum, BUT it would be
best probably if you removed it.