"Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down on Broadway'' )"
wrote in message ...


TURTLE wrote:

"Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down on Broadway'' )"

wrote in message ...


Don Klipstein wrote:

In article , TURTLE wrote:
SNIP

This is Turtle Again.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as
not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the
fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure
Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power
out
of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer
Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10%
gas
and
get more power and mileage.

Actually, alcohol has such a high octane rating that race car engines
designed to burn it have a higher compression ratio.

Excuse me, that's the point of the higher octane. Ethanol has *less*
energy per gallon than gasoline. This means that per gallon, you should
pay *less* for it. My rule is two or three cents.


This is Turtle.

You forgot that the U.S. Government has octane rating and this covers
everything
you say and burniability of the fuel. 87 Octane Gasohol or 87 Octane Gas have
the same burniability as each other. If it was not the same it would have a
less
or more of a Octane rating on it.

I didn't forget that they sell gasoline with a specific octane rating.
Octane rating has nothing to do with the energy in the fuel. Ethanol has
less energy per gallon than gasoline therefore you are getting less
energy per gallon and should therefore not be willing to pay as much as
you pay if you are buying all gasoline. You might, of course, choose the
gasohol because you wanted to cheaply get the water out of your tank or
because you think that other additives used to raise octane are a danger
to the environment, but at least then you are making a choice based on
something other than a misguided look at volumes.


This is Turtle.

I like your theory on Octane rating being different for Gasohaol and regular gas
and you need to discuss this with the DOT of your state and have them change the
Octane rating to reflect the less power from Alcohol gas than regular unleaded
gas. I think they would be interesed in your theory here.

TURTLE

"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down on Broadway'' )"
wrote in message
...


TURTLE wrote:

"Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down on Broadway'' )"

wrote in message ...


Don Klipstein wrote:

In article , TURTLE wrote:
SNIP

This is Turtle Again.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as
not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the
fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure
Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power
out
of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer
Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10%
gas
and
get more power and mileage.

Actually, alcohol has such a high octane rating that race car engines
designed to burn it have a higher compression ratio.

Excuse me, that's the point of the higher octane. Ethanol has *less*
energy per gallon than gasoline. This means that per gallon, you should
pay *less* for it. My rule is two or three cents.


This is Turtle.

You forgot that the U.S. Government has octane rating and this covers
everything
you say and burniability of the fuel. 87 Octane Gasohol or 87 Octane Gas
have
the same burniability as each other. If it was not the same it would have a
less
or more of a Octane rating on it.

I didn't forget that they sell gasoline with a specific octane rating.
Octane rating has nothing to do with the energy in the fuel. Ethanol has
less energy per gallon than gasoline therefore you are getting less
energy per gallon and should therefore not be willing to pay as much as
you pay if you are buying all gasoline. You might, of course, choose the
gasohol because you wanted to cheaply get the water out of your tank or
because you think that other additives used to raise octane are a danger
to the environment, but at least then you are making a choice based on
something other than a misguided look at volumes.

This is Turtle.

Rather pathetic, really.

I like your theory on Octane rating being different for Gasohaol and regular
gas and you need to discuss this with the DOT of your state and have them
change the Octane rating to reflect the less power from Alcohol gas than
regular unleaded gas. I think they would be interesed in your theory here.

Nope, they realise what he said is correct.

The octane rating has nothing to do with the
energy content. Its about what compression
ratio it can be used at without predetonation etc.

TURTLE

Rather pathetic, really.

TURTLE wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...

TURTLE wrote:

"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...


In article , TURTLE wrote:
SNIP

This is Turtle Again.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the
fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power out
of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas
and
get more power and mileage.

Actually, alcohol has such a high octane rating that race car engines
designed to burn it have a higher compression ratio. (Indy cars burn
methanol rather than ethanol, but that does not change any other points.)
Without the higher compression ratio, an engine would actually get less
energy from a gallon of alcohol than from a gallon of gasoline. Fuel
mileage would actually be a little worse.

Cars often get very slightly less mileage with "gasohol" and other
"oxygenated fuel" because these fuels have slightly less chemical energy
per gallon.

Some high octane gasolines have (or at least had several years ago)
alcohol to boost the octane and as a result sometimes get/got very
slightly less fuel economy and power.

----------------------------------------------------------

As for higher octane than the instructions call for being necessary when
the engine has a lot of miles on it: This is *sometimes* true. The usual
cause is bad spark plugs (replace) or carbon deposits in the engine making
detonation occur more easily. Probably less likely if you properly
maintain your engine and air filter. But only use higher octane to the
extent necessary to eliminate knocking.

----------------------------------------------------------

- Don Klipstein )


This is Turtle.

You really confuse me with all the does and don't but I have to revert back
to look in the car info book in the glove box and get the octane rating that
the auto is to burn and use it. It the fuel you use has alcohol or any other
stuff in it but the fuel stated by the manufactor , it make little or no
difference in the operation of the auto and if the valve ping. If the engine
makes a noise or ping You have a motor malifuction and need to have it looked
at. Now if your drag racing or racing the autos I would follow your words as
to fuel for high speed driving and super power. In this case you would not
want to burn the 87 octane gas and set the injectors , Car computor chip /
speed chip , and timing system to burn the 97 or 104 octane fuel for maxium
speed and power.

Now I will tell you what happen to the Alcohol being put in the place of fuel
in the U.S.A. . We here in the area had a Alcohol manufactoring plant and was
making large amounts of alcohol to be used in the cars. I had a friend of
mine who was a engineer for them and when they shut the doors on it and we
talked about the cause of it closing. He said at the time it cost about $.60
a gallon to get it to the pump and gas was $.60 a gallon at the pump and the
oil companys was going along with the 10% mix of alcohol and 90% gas because
of shortage. At the time there was some research as to using more alcohol and
gas. It was determined that you could run a 50/50 mix alcohol and gas and
cars would run fine. At this time there was a push to do away with alcohol
because of it was no good to use and really was a bad choice for fuel. One
year later the Alcohol manufactoring plant here closed it was running 24 hour
a day 7 days a week and customers was buying it faster than they could make
it. They had a 6 month back log of orders for it but it was no good at all
for fuel for cars. He said if the market ever went with a 50/50 mix in the
gas fuel for cars it would cut the oil market share in half and make the oil
company take a super hit on profit that it expected to make off the 90% mix
fuel. at the 50/50 mix it would kill their business. Then in about 5 years
the plant was reopen to make a additive to remove water from the gas tanks
and was nothing but the same alcohol the added to the gas to have the 10/90
mix of alcohol. It was open for about a year and the plant had distribitor
who was selling the stuff by the gallon to remove the water but people was
just buying it to use as fuel at $.60 a gallon and gas had gotten up to $1.00
a gallon. They were using a 50/50 mix and worked fine. You could buy a 5 gal.
jug of alcohol for $3.00 and 5 gal. of gas was $5.00 at the pump. The E.P.A.
come down on them because of the people doing what they was doing and the
plant knew about it by making it in a 5 gal. jug. The E.P.A. made it so hard
on them that they closed in about 6 months for them finding everything under
the sun wrong with their plant. The plant now is nothing but a bunch of big
building in the middle of Soy bean and Rice fields in Franklenton, Louisiana
and a warehouse for a oil company to store and work on oil field equipment in
it. Everybody was growing corn at the time but went back to Rice and Soy bean
after it closed. I even burn some of it and it run fine but when oil speaks
Alcohol listens and gets out of the way. Yes the oil company put out all
kinds of data that says it was no good at all but like i said before Oil
speaks -- Alcohol listens and moves on.

So you will never see the alcohol really come back and compete with oil
again.

TURTLE

If they were selling the alcohol at 60 cents and gas was selling for $1.00, it
is no wonder they stopped making alcohol. You can make alcohol economically
if you use waste products. But you can't grow crops to make alcohol
economically because the energy you put into the process is greater than the
energy you get out of it. There may be some exception to that, but they are
few and far between.


This is Turtle.

Here is one for you to think about. A 100 pound sack of Whole Corn for cattle
feed will run about $6.00 and the moon shinners can make 20 gallons of shin
Alcohol out of a 100 pound sack of corn. Shin will burn in your care with no gas
at all and you can drink it too. It is 190 proof or 95% Alcohol and 55 water.
That is the samething as gas 94% gas and 6% water.

Now the Alcohol refining product can be bought at the feed store by the 100
pound sack of corn for $6.00 and makes 20 gallions of Alcohol that can be used
as fuel in the auto. Now base gas at $2.00 a gallion and that makes the alcohol
replacing the gas as follow here :

20 Gal. of Alcohol sells for $40.00 as replacement for gas.

20 Gal. of Gas sells for $40.00 as the gas fuel.

100 # of Corn raw crude to refine is $6.00 . So you have a profit and refining
cost of $34.00 for 20 Gal. of fuel / gas.

INFO first. A barrel of oil is 42 Gallons and a 1/2 a barrel of oil is 21 gal.

1/2 barrel of oil 21 gal. cost now about $25.00 so crude to make gas to make 20
gal. of gas cost $25.00 . Then $25.00 for crude to make 20 gal. of gas is
$25.00 - $40.00 = $15.00 refining cost and profit.

$25.00 worth of crude oil makes $40.00 worth of fuel / gas = $15.00 Profit and
Refining cost.

$6.00 worth of crude material / oil makes $40.00 worth of fuel / Alcohol / gas =
$34.00 Profit / Refining Cost.

So they can refine Corn at $6.00 to make $40.00 worth of fuel or they can refine
$25.00 worth of crude oil to make $40.00 worth of fuel. The $6.00 making $40.00
worth of fuel sounds a whole lot better than $25.00 worth of crude to make
$40.00 worth of fuel. The Corn is a whole lot cheaper to make the fuel than from
Crude oil.

Now the data of the 100 # of Corn can make 20 gal. of Shin is a fact in this
part of the country and i can get you to talk to Crocket Johnson who makes shin
and check the facts. This is a fact and no bull. Now of cource Crocket wants
$20.00 a Gal. for 190 proof / 95% Alcohol shine and it is the good stuff.

Alcohol can be made cheaper than gas now days but with the oil company against
it. Alcohol is just too costly to produce.

TURTLE



I think you are missing a lot of the cost of alcohol
production. $6 a hundred for corn is probably well below
the production cost. You may be able to buy it for that but
only because there is an oversupply and the farmer wants to
get something back. If a lot of the corn went to alcohol
production, the supply would drop, the demand would
increase, and no one would sell for lower than production
cost which without government price support would probably
be double or triple the $6 figure.

Second, I don't believe the 20 gallons of 95 percent alcohol
from 100 pounds of corn. By weight you are converting 100
pounds of corn to about 140-150 pounds of alcohol? That
just isn't possible unless you have a bunch of other
materials not accounted for (and don't tell me its the
water). I suspect that you probably have at least 20
pounds of dry material left from the mash and the alcohol
probably weighs 70 pounds which is more like 9 gallons of
alcohol leaving about 10 pounds lost as other than dry mash
and alcohol.

You didn't account for the energy used in distilling. How
much of that 95 percent alcohol was burned to distill your
mash to 95 percent alcohol? I have no idea, but probably
1/2 or more. That leaves you with about 4 1/2 gallons for
your original $6 (and big time distillers can come close to
that untaxed cost). You are still ahead until you go back
and refigure the actual cost of the grain.

Every economic study that I have seen, except one, shows
that you cannot get back the energy that is put into the
alcohol production. And that single study just barely made
it. Note I'm talking energy, not cost, because if you don't
come up with more energy than you started, it doesn't make
sense to convert oil/gas to alcohol.

Small productions, small geographic areas, and use of waste
material as the basic material can be profitable, and the
energy can be on the positive side but that is mainly
because the basic material is waste. With large scale
production, the waste material quickly becomes limiting.

In article ,
says...

This is Turtle.

I like your theory on Octane rating being different for Gasohaol and regular gas
and you need to discuss this with the DOT of your state and have them change the
Octane rating to reflect the less power from Alcohol gas than regular unleaded
gas. I think they would be interesed in your theory here.

TURTLE


You need to look up what octane means.

It is the resistance to ignition value. It is NOT the amount of energy
per volume.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
o |~ Dominique Cormann
| (\._[~] dcormann at rogers.com
|~|) |~~| http://kozmik.guelph.on.ca

TURTLE wrote:
....
You forgot that the U.S. Government has octane rating and this covers
everything
you say and burniability of the fuel. 87 Octane Gasohol or 87 Octane Gas have
the same burniability as each other. If it was not the same it would have a
less
or more of a Octane rating on it.
....
I like your theory on Octane rating being different for Gasohaol and regular gas
and you need to discuss this with the DOT of your state and have them change the
Octane rating to reflect the less power from Alcohol gas than regular unleaded
gas. I think they would be interesed in your theory here.

Turtle, better check some more on what octane rating really is...it is
not a measure of the specific energy of the fuel...there is no rating
of "burniability" even if there were such a word...

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/octane.htm

He said his truck was running sluggishly and he put in a tank of 76 high
octane and could hardly believe the difference it made. Suddenly the
truck ran smoothly. He said he has a lot of evidence that he and other
people are getting very significantly better mileage since switching to
76. I guess that's 76 Union, unless they've changed their name.

I see in another post that you're from CA. So am I. This makes a
difference.

The 76 station near my house has a HUGE sign that advertises "NO MTBE."
Don't know if all 76 stations are MTBE-free, but most of the others
haven't gotten rid of it yet. That probably accounts for the difference
in mileage. I don't know about the running smoother thing, though.

I heard that newer cars/trucks need the octane they're designed for even
though they run fine (no knocks) w/ lower octane gases. The computers
adjust to make them run ok, but the performance and efficiency go down.
So I think it just depends on the car.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
TURTLE wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...

TURTLE wrote:

"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...


In article , TURTLE wrote:
SNIP

This is Turtle Again.

*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as
not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the
fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure
Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power out
of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer
Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas
and
get more power and mileage.

Actually, alcohol has such a high octane rating that race car engines
designed to burn it have a higher compression ratio. (Indy cars burn
methanol rather than ethanol, but that does not change any other points.)
Without the higher compression ratio, an engine would actually get less
energy from a gallon of alcohol than from a gallon of gasoline. Fuel
mileage would actually be a little worse.

Cars often get very slightly less mileage with "gasohol" and other
"oxygenated fuel" because these fuels have slightly less chemical energy
per gallon.

Some high octane gasolines have (or at least had several years ago)
alcohol to boost the octane and as a result sometimes get/got very
slightly less fuel economy and power.

----------------------------------------------------------

As for higher octane than the instructions call for being necessary when
the engine has a lot of miles on it: This is *sometimes* true. The usual
cause is bad spark plugs (replace) or carbon deposits in the engine making
detonation occur more easily. Probably less likely if you properly
maintain your engine and air filter. But only use higher octane to the
extent necessary to eliminate knocking.

----------------------------------------------------------

- Don Klipstein )


This is Turtle.

You really confuse me with all the does and don't but I have to revert back
to look in the car info book in the glove box and get the octane rating that
the auto is to burn and use it. It the fuel you use has alcohol or any other
stuff in it but the fuel stated by the manufactor , it make little or no
difference in the operation of the auto and if the valve ping. If the engine
makes a noise or ping You have a motor malifuction and need to have it
looked at. Now if your drag racing or racing the autos I would follow your
words as to fuel for high speed driving and super power. In this case you
would not want to burn the 87 octane gas and set the injectors , Car
computor chip / speed chip , and timing system to burn the 97 or 104 octane
fuel for maxium speed and power.

Now I will tell you what happen to the Alcohol being put in the place of
fuel in the U.S.A. . We here in the area had a Alcohol manufactoring plant
and was making large amounts of alcohol to be used in the cars. I had a
friend of mine who was a engineer for them and when they shut the doors on
it and we talked about the cause of it closing. He said at the time it cost
about $.60 a gallon to get it to the pump and gas was $.60 a gallon at the
pump and the oil companys was going along with the 10% mix of alcohol and
90% gas because of shortage. At the time there was some research as to using
more alcohol and gas. It was determined that you could run a 50/50 mix
alcohol and gas and cars would run fine. At this time there was a push to do
away with alcohol because of it was no good to use and really was a bad
choice for fuel. One year later the Alcohol manufactoring plant here closed
it was running 24 hour a day 7 days a week and customers was buying it
faster than they could make it. They had a 6 month back log of orders for it
but it was no good at all for fuel for cars. He said if the market ever went
with a 50/50 mix in the gas fuel for cars it would cut the oil market share
in half and make the oil company take a super hit on profit that it expected
to make off the 90% mix fuel. at the 50/50 mix it would kill their business.
Then in about 5 years the plant was reopen to make a additive to remove
water from the gas tanks and was nothing but the same alcohol the added to
the gas to have the 10/90 mix of alcohol. It was open for about a year and
the plant had distribitor who was selling the stuff by the gallon to remove
the water but people was just buying it to use as fuel at $.60 a gallon and
gas had gotten up to $1.00 a gallon. They were using a 50/50 mix and worked
fine. You could buy a 5 gal. jug of alcohol for $3.00 and 5 gal. of gas was
$5.00 at the pump. The E.P.A. come down on them because of the people doing
what they was doing and the plant knew about it by making it in a 5 gal.
jug. The E.P.A. made it so hard on them that they closed in about 6 months
for them finding everything under the sun wrong with their plant. The plant
now is nothing but a bunch of big building in the middle of Soy bean and
Rice fields in Franklenton, Louisiana and a warehouse for a oil company to
store and work on oil field equipment in it. Everybody was growing corn at
the time but went back to Rice and Soy bean after it closed. I even burn
some of it and it run fine but when oil speaks Alcohol listens and gets out
of the way. Yes the oil company put out all kinds of data that says it was
no good at all but like i said before Oil speaks -- Alcohol listens and
moves on.

So you will never see the alcohol really come back and compete with oil
again.

TURTLE

If they were selling the alcohol at 60 cents and gas was selling for $1.00,
it is no wonder they stopped making alcohol. You can make alcohol
economically if you use waste products. But you can't grow crops to make
alcohol economically because the energy you put into the process is greater
than the energy you get out of it. There may be some exception to that, but
they are few and far between.


This is Turtle.

Here is one for you to think about. A 100 pound sack of Whole Corn for cattle
feed will run about $6.00 and the moon shinners can make 20 gallons of shin
Alcohol out of a 100 pound sack of corn. Shin will burn in your care with no
gas at all and you can drink it too. It is 190 proof or 95% Alcohol and 55
water. That is the samething as gas 94% gas and 6% water.

Now the Alcohol refining product can be bought at the feed store by the 100
pound sack of corn for $6.00 and makes 20 gallions of Alcohol that can be
used as fuel in the auto. Now base gas at $2.00 a gallion and that makes the
alcohol replacing the gas as follow here :

20 Gal. of Alcohol sells for $40.00 as replacement for gas.

20 Gal. of Gas sells for $40.00 as the gas fuel.

100 # of Corn raw crude to refine is $6.00 . So you have a profit and
refining cost of $34.00 for 20 Gal. of fuel / gas.

INFO first. A barrel of oil is 42 Gallons and a 1/2 a barrel of oil is 21
gal.

1/2 barrel of oil 21 gal. cost now about $25.00 so crude to make gas to make
20 gal. of gas cost $25.00 . Then $25.00 for crude to make 20 gal. of gas is
$25.00 - $40.00 = $15.00 refining cost and profit.

$25.00 worth of crude oil makes $40.00 worth of fuel / gas = $15.00 Profit
and Refining cost.

$6.00 worth of crude material / oil makes $40.00 worth of fuel / Alcohol /
gas = $34.00 Profit / Refining Cost.

So they can refine Corn at $6.00 to make $40.00 worth of fuel or they can
refine $25.00 worth of crude oil to make $40.00 worth of fuel. The $6.00
making $40.00 worth of fuel sounds a whole lot better than $25.00 worth of
crude to make $40.00 worth of fuel. The Corn is a whole lot cheaper to make
the fuel than from Crude oil.

Now the data of the 100 # of Corn can make 20 gal. of Shin is a fact in this
part of the country and i can get you to talk to Crocket Johnson who makes
shin and check the facts. This is a fact and no bull. Now of cource Crocket
wants $20.00 a Gal. for 190 proof / 95% Alcohol shine and it is the good
stuff.

Alcohol can be made cheaper than gas now days but with the oil company
against it. Alcohol is just too costly to produce.

TURTLE

I think you are missing a lot of the cost of alcohol production. $6 a hundred
for corn is probably well below the production cost. You may be able to buy
it for that but only because there is an oversupply and the farmer wants to
get something back. If a lot of the corn went to alcohol production, the
supply would drop, the demand would increase, and no one would sell for lower
than production cost which without government price support would probably be
double or triple the $6 figure.

Second, I don't believe the 20 gallons of 95 percent alcohol from 100 pounds
of corn. By weight you are converting 100 pounds of corn to about 140-150
pounds of alcohol? That just isn't possible unless you have a bunch of other
materials not accounted for (and don't tell me its the water). I suspect
that you probably have at least 20 pounds of dry material left from the mash
and the alcohol probably weighs 70 pounds which is more like 9 gallons of
alcohol leaving about 10 pounds lost as other than dry mash and alcohol.

You didn't account for the energy used in distilling. How much of that 95
percent alcohol was burned to distill your mash to 95 percent alcohol? I have
no idea, but probably 1/2 or more. That leaves you with about 4 1/2 gallons
for your original $6 (and big time distillers can come close to that untaxed
cost). You are still ahead until you go back and refigure the actual cost of
the grain.

Every economic study that I have seen, except one, shows that you cannot get
back the energy that is put into the alcohol production. And that single
study just barely made it. Note I'm talking energy, not cost, because if you
don't come up with more energy than you started, it doesn't make sense to
convert oil/gas to alcohol.

Small productions, small geographic areas, and use of waste material as the
basic material can be profitable, and the energy can be on the positive side
but that is mainly because the basic material is waste. With large scale
production, the waste material quickly becomes limiting.

This is Turtle.

The ratio of corn used verses the Alcohol production is coming from a shin
producer and the alcohol % could not be what he states as 95% alcohol but
anybody will drink the shin could not tell you the 100 proof from the 190 proof
but you have to take him at his word of 190 proof. Crocket did say for a fact
and I believe him that he can make 20 -- 1 gal. milk jugs of shin out of a 100
pound bag of corn only and no cobbs. Now the proof could not be what is state on
% or proof.

The studies may be done and looked at for ever but when the Oil industry does
not like alcohol as the motor fuel. You can forget about tring to make it
acceptiable for use as fuel. It will never happen.

TURTLE

"Dominique Cormann" wrote in message
news:MPG.1c44574d3d1c636c9896f7@nntp...
In article ,
says...

This is Turtle.

I like your theory on Octane rating being different for Gasohaol and regular
gas
and you need to discuss this with the DOT of your state and have them change
the
Octane rating to reflect the less power from Alcohol gas than regular
unleaded
gas. I think they would be interesed in your theory here.

TURTLE


You need to look up what octane means.

It is the resistance to ignition value. It is NOT the amount of energy
per volume.


This is Turtle.

I don't study gas as a hobby but if the octane rating was all the same as you
say here. I could run 87 octane gas in my Lexus LS-400 and not have to burn the
93 octane fuel. I can fill it with 87 Octane fuel and it don't knock but a
turtle could out run me with it in the car. I put the 93 in it and it hauls ass.
I look at what it does and not what it is suppose to prevent or prevent it from
knocking.

TURTLE

"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"Dominique Cormann" wrote in message
news:MPG.1c44574d3d1c636c9896f7@nntp...
In article ,
says...

This is Turtle.

I like your theory on Octane rating being different for Gasohaol and regular
gas
and you need to discuss this with the DOT of your state and have them change
the
Octane rating to reflect the less power from Alcohol gas than regular
unleaded
gas. I think they would be interesed in your theory here.

You need to look up what octane means.

It is the resistance to ignition value. It is NOT the amount of energy
per volume.

This is Turtle.

Rather pathetic, really.

I don't study gas as a hobby

Or any other way either, obviously.

but if the octane rating was all the same as you say here. I could run 87
octane gas in my Lexus LS-400 and not have to burn the 93 octane fuel.

Not a ****ing clue, as always.

I can fill it with 87 Octane fuel and it don't knock but a turtle could out
run me with it in the car. I put the 93 in it and it hauls ass.

Rather pathetic, really.

I look at what it does and not what it is suppose to prevent or prevent it
from knocking.

Rather pathetic, really.

TURTLE

Rather pathetic, really.

TURTLE wrote:
....
(alcohol) acceptiable for use as fuel. It will never happen.

It's already happening...present limitations are ramp up of production
(there are new plants being built all over continuously if you would
just go look), distribution and customer acceptance. There are
practical limits on fractions of alcohol w/ conventional (read existing)
engines, particularly issues w/ types of rubbers and plastics used for
seats, tubing, seals, etc., that will not tolerate high concentrations
of alcohol that current owners are not willing to trade out...

In addition, bio-diesel is ramping up significantly as well..."oil"
companies are not just oil--they're "energy" companies from oil and gas
to coal and uranium plus many alternatives if you will also just go and
look...

TURTLE wrote:
....
I don't study gas as a hobby ...

Did you follow the link I posted or google octane rating to actually see
what it is?

...but if the octane rating was all the same as you
say here. I could run 87 octane gas in my Lexus LS-400 and not have to burn the
93 octane fuel. I can fill it with 87 Octane fuel and it don't knock but a
turtle could out run me with it in the car. I put the 93 in it and it hauls ass.
I look at what it does and not what it is suppose to prevent or prevent it from
knocking.

What is available in the "high-test" pump is more than just additional
anti-knock compound...

In article ,
Duane Bozarth wrote:


What is available in the "high-test" pump is more than just additional
anti-knock compound...

that warm, secure feeling...

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/autos/octane.htm

....that comes from being hornswaggled*.

"Shell premium contains SIX TIMES the minimum required detergent
agents!!!!!" which works out to a producer's cost of $0.004/gallon
extra...

In addition to the FTC website, i urge you all to at least become
passingly aware of the DOE's Energy Information Agency.
http://www.eia.doe.gov

..max
*unless your owner's manual specs it, of course.

--
the part of
was played by maxwell monningh 8-p