"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
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TURTLE wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
TURTLE wrote:
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
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In article , TURTLE wrote:
SNIP
This is Turtle Again.
*** Octane Burns to make the car run good.
*** Additive clean and fix problems.
*** Yes Gasohol is different but it has a octane rating as the same as
not.
Alcohol is a very good fuel to burn for if you will check up here on the
fuel
the cars in the Indy 500 are using. You will find out they use pure
Alcohol
burning of the fuel. They don't use gas because you can get more power out
of
Alcohol fuel than unleaded gas. All the high speed or drag racer prefer
Pure
Alcohol over unleaded gas. So if it is me, Give me 90% Alcohol and 10% gas
and
get more power and mileage.
Actually, alcohol has such a high octane rating that race car engines
designed to burn it have a higher compression ratio. (Indy cars burn
methanol rather than ethanol, but that does not change any other points.)
Without the higher compression ratio, an engine would actually get less
energy from a gallon of alcohol than from a gallon of gasoline. Fuel
mileage would actually be a little worse.
Cars often get very slightly less mileage with "gasohol" and other
"oxygenated fuel" because these fuels have slightly less chemical energy
per gallon.
Some high octane gasolines have (or at least had several years ago)
alcohol to boost the octane and as a result sometimes get/got very
slightly less fuel economy and power.
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As for higher octane than the instructions call for being necessary when
the engine has a lot of miles on it: This is *sometimes* true. The usual
cause is bad spark plugs (replace) or carbon deposits in the engine making
detonation occur more easily. Probably less likely if you properly
maintain your engine and air filter. But only use higher octane to the
extent necessary to eliminate knocking.
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- Don Klipstein )
This is Turtle.
You really confuse me with all the does and don't but I have to revert back
to look in the car info book in the glove box and get the octane rating that
the auto is to burn and use it. It the fuel you use has alcohol or any other
stuff in it but the fuel stated by the manufactor , it make little or no
difference in the operation of the auto and if the valve ping. If the engine
makes a noise or ping You have a motor malifuction and need to have it
looked at. Now if your drag racing or racing the autos I would follow your
words as to fuel for high speed driving and super power. In this case you
would not want to burn the 87 octane gas and set the injectors , Car
computor chip / speed chip , and timing system to burn the 97 or 104 octane
fuel for maxium speed and power.
Now I will tell you what happen to the Alcohol being put in the place of
fuel in the U.S.A. . We here in the area had a Alcohol manufactoring plant
and was making large amounts of alcohol to be used in the cars. I had a
friend of mine who was a engineer for them and when they shut the doors on
it and we talked about the cause of it closing. He said at the time it cost
about $.60 a gallon to get it to the pump and gas was $.60 a gallon at the
pump and the oil companys was going along with the 10% mix of alcohol and
90% gas because of shortage. At the time there was some research as to using
more alcohol and gas. It was determined that you could run a 50/50 mix
alcohol and gas and cars would run fine. At this time there was a push to do
away with alcohol because of it was no good to use and really was a bad
choice for fuel. One year later the Alcohol manufactoring plant here closed
it was running 24 hour a day 7 days a week and customers was buying it
faster than they could make it. They had a 6 month back log of orders for it
but it was no good at all for fuel for cars. He said if the market ever went
with a 50/50 mix in the gas fuel for cars it would cut the oil market share
in half and make the oil company take a super hit on profit that it expected
to make off the 90% mix fuel. at the 50/50 mix it would kill their business.
Then in about 5 years the plant was reopen to make a additive to remove
water from the gas tanks and was nothing but the same alcohol the added to
the gas to have the 10/90 mix of alcohol. It was open for about a year and
the plant had distribitor who was selling the stuff by the gallon to remove
the water but people was just buying it to use as fuel at $.60 a gallon and
gas had gotten up to $1.00 a gallon. They were using a 50/50 mix and worked
fine. You could buy a 5 gal. jug of alcohol for $3.00 and 5 gal. of gas was
$5.00 at the pump. The E.P.A. come down on them because of the people doing
what they was doing and the plant knew about it by making it in a 5 gal.
jug. The E.P.A. made it so hard on them that they closed in about 6 months
for them finding everything under the sun wrong with their plant. The plant
now is nothing but a bunch of big building in the middle of Soy bean and
Rice fields in Franklenton, Louisiana and a warehouse for a oil company to
store and work on oil field equipment in it. Everybody was growing corn at
the time but went back to Rice and Soy bean after it closed. I even burn
some of it and it run fine but when oil speaks Alcohol listens and gets out
of the way. Yes the oil company put out all kinds of data that says it was
no good at all but like i said before Oil speaks -- Alcohol listens and
moves on.
So you will never see the alcohol really come back and compete with oil
again.
TURTLE
If they were selling the alcohol at 60 cents and gas was selling for $1.00,
it is no wonder they stopped making alcohol. You can make alcohol
economically if you use waste products. But you can't grow crops to make
alcohol economically because the energy you put into the process is greater
than the energy you get out of it. There may be some exception to that, but
they are few and far between.
This is Turtle.
Here is one for you to think about. A 100 pound sack of Whole Corn for cattle
feed will run about $6.00 and the moon shinners can make 20 gallons of shin
Alcohol out of a 100 pound sack of corn. Shin will burn in your care with no
gas at all and you can drink it too. It is 190 proof or 95% Alcohol and 55
water. That is the samething as gas 94% gas and 6% water.
Now the Alcohol refining product can be bought at the feed store by the 100
pound sack of corn for $6.00 and makes 20 gallions of Alcohol that can be
used as fuel in the auto. Now base gas at $2.00 a gallion and that makes the
alcohol replacing the gas as follow here :
20 Gal. of Alcohol sells for $40.00 as replacement for gas.
20 Gal. of Gas sells for $40.00 as the gas fuel.
100 # of Corn raw crude to refine is $6.00 . So you have a profit and
refining cost of $34.00 for 20 Gal. of fuel / gas.
INFO first. A barrel of oil is 42 Gallons and a 1/2 a barrel of oil is 21
gal.
1/2 barrel of oil 21 gal. cost now about $25.00 so crude to make gas to make
20 gal. of gas cost $25.00 . Then $25.00 for crude to make 20 gal. of gas is
$25.00 - $40.00 = $15.00 refining cost and profit.
$25.00 worth of crude oil makes $40.00 worth of fuel / gas = $15.00 Profit
and Refining cost.
$6.00 worth of crude material / oil makes $40.00 worth of fuel / Alcohol /
gas = $34.00 Profit / Refining Cost.
So they can refine Corn at $6.00 to make $40.00 worth of fuel or they can
refine $25.00 worth of crude oil to make $40.00 worth of fuel. The $6.00
making $40.00 worth of fuel sounds a whole lot better than $25.00 worth of
crude to make $40.00 worth of fuel. The Corn is a whole lot cheaper to make
the fuel than from Crude oil.
Now the data of the 100 # of Corn can make 20 gal. of Shin is a fact in this
part of the country and i can get you to talk to Crocket Johnson who makes
shin and check the facts. This is a fact and no bull. Now of cource Crocket
wants $20.00 a Gal. for 190 proof / 95% Alcohol shine and it is the good
stuff.
Alcohol can be made cheaper than gas now days but with the oil company
against it. Alcohol is just too costly to produce.
TURTLE
I think you are missing a lot of the cost of alcohol production. $6 a hundred
for corn is probably well below the production cost. You may be able to buy
it for that but only because there is an oversupply and the farmer wants to
get something back. If a lot of the corn went to alcohol production, the
supply would drop, the demand would increase, and no one would sell for lower
than production cost which without government price support would probably be
double or triple the $6 figure.
Second, I don't believe the 20 gallons of 95 percent alcohol from 100 pounds
of corn. By weight you are converting 100 pounds of corn to about 140-150
pounds of alcohol? That just isn't possible unless you have a bunch of other
materials not accounted for (and don't tell me its the water). I suspect
that you probably have at least 20 pounds of dry material left from the mash
and the alcohol probably weighs 70 pounds which is more like 9 gallons of
alcohol leaving about 10 pounds lost as other than dry mash and alcohol.
You didn't account for the energy used in distilling. How much of that 95
percent alcohol was burned to distill your mash to 95 percent alcohol? I have
no idea, but probably 1/2 or more. That leaves you with about 4 1/2 gallons
for your original $6 (and big time distillers can come close to that untaxed
cost). You are still ahead until you go back and refigure the actual cost of
the grain.
Every economic study that I have seen, except one, shows that you cannot get
back the energy that is put into the alcohol production. And that single
study just barely made it. Note I'm talking energy, not cost, because if you
don't come up with more energy than you started, it doesn't make sense to
convert oil/gas to alcohol.
Small productions, small geographic areas, and use of waste material as the
basic material can be profitable, and the energy can be on the positive side
but that is mainly because the basic material is waste. With large scale
production, the waste material quickly becomes limiting.
This is Turtle.
The ratio of corn used verses the Alcohol production is coming from a shin
producer and the alcohol % could not be what he states as 95% alcohol but
anybody will drink the shin could not tell you the 100 proof from the 190 proof
but you have to take him at his word of 190 proof. Crocket did say for a fact
and I believe him that he can make 20 -- 1 gal. milk jugs of shin out of a 100
pound bag of corn only and no cobbs. Now the proof could not be what is state on
% or proof.
The studies may be done and looked at for ever but when the Oil industry does
not like alcohol as the motor fuel. You can forget about tring to make it
acceptiable for use as fuel. It will never happen.
TURTLE
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