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#1
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I bought the AirKing rotating drum type humidifier from home depot and
installed it on my furnace today, however, something I found it's very stupid by design. I set the % humidity to my desired percentage. However, the humidifier is on even the heat is not on, the drum keeps rotating all the time. It's waste of my electricity. Is it possible to install a device that detects air flow, then turns it on?? is there such as device? Help... please.. |
#2
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![]() "nospamplease" wrote in message ... I bought the AirKing rotating drum type humidifier from home depot and installed it on my furnace today, however, something I found it's very stupid by design. I set the % humidity to my desired percentage. However, the humidifier is on even the heat is not on, the drum keeps rotating all the time. It's waste of my electricity. Is it possible to install a device that detects air flow, then turns it on?? is there such as device? Help... please.. This is Turtle. Yes there is a switch for this. It is called a Sall switch. It sticks out in the duct and will lift up and turn on anything you want while the air is moving. then when it stops the sall switch will cut it off. Now you can use a isolation relay to do the same thing. It's nothing to set up. TURTLE |
#3
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![]() "TURTLE" wrote "nospamplease" wrote in message ... I bought the AirKing rotating drum type humidifier from home depot and installed it on my furnace today, however, something I found it's very stupid by design. I set the % humidity to my desired percentage. However, the humidifier is on even the heat is not on, the drum keeps rotating all the time. It's waste of my electricity. Is it possible to install a device that detects air flow, then turns it on?? is there such as device? Help... please.. This is Turtle. Yes there is a switch for this. It is called a Sall switch. It sticks out in the duct and will lift up and turn on anything you want while the air is moving. then when it stops the sall switch will cut it off. Now you can use a isolation relay to do the same thing. It's nothing to set up. (Turtle meant to say SAIL switch) There is also a current sensing relay that is wrapped around the common wire of the fan. I can tell you though: Even if than little 24 volt motor (on the humidifier) ran all day, it would probably use 1 ir 2 cents worth of electricity..... |
#4
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nospamplease wrote:
I bought the AirKing rotating drum type humidifier from home depot and installed it on my furnace today, however, something I found it's very stupid by design. I set the % humidity to my desired percentage. However, the humidifier is on even the heat is not on, the drum keeps rotating all the time. It's waste of my electricity. That's nothing, compared to the huge waste of heating fuel. Nick |
#5
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I owned a humidifier with a relay switch as described here, but the problem
was that the heater still didn't run long enough at one time to disburse enough humidity to make the humidifier worthwhile. Before engineering a clever on-off system, take some measurements of the average run time of your blower on an average cold day (very difficult to do), and decide if that's enough. At my house, running a hunidifier 30% of the time would be like not having one. Then I got a standlone humidifier in my bedroom where I really needed it, and that's another subject. It works best in a small area, so I have to keep the bedroom and bathroom doors closed. -B "nospamplease" wrote in message ... I bought the AirKing rotating drum type humidifier from home depot and installed it on my furnace today, however, something I found it's very stupid by design. I set the % humidity to my desired percentage. However, the humidifier is on even the heat is not on, the drum keeps rotating all the time. It's waste of my electricity. Is it possible to install a device that detects air flow, then turns it on?? is there such as device? Help... please.. |
#6
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Stick that "current sensing relay" around the low speed blower motor lead
instead of the common wire. That way it will allow the humidifier to run while in "heat" mode but not in "cool" mode. Assumes OP has central air, as well. "Red Neckerson" wrote in message news:EY%kd.1253$fc.212@trnddc06... "TURTLE" wrote "nospamplease" wrote in message ... I bought the AirKing rotating drum type humidifier from home depot and installed it on my furnace today, however, something I found it's very stupid by design. I set the % humidity to my desired percentage. However, the humidifier is on even the heat is not on, the drum keeps rotating all the time. It's waste of my electricity. Is it possible to install a device that detects air flow, then turns it on?? is there such as device? Help... please.. This is Turtle. Yes there is a switch for this. It is called a Sall switch. It sticks out in the duct and will lift up and turn on anything you want while the air is moving. then when it stops the sall switch will cut it off. Now you can use a isolation relay to do the same thing. It's nothing to set up. (Turtle meant to say SAIL switch) There is also a current sensing relay that is wrapped around the common wire of the fan. I can tell you though: Even if than little 24 volt motor (on the humidifier) ran all day, it would probably use 1 ir 2 cents worth of electricity..... |
#7
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Zypher repeats itself:
Humidifiers actually save fuel. The air temperature 'seems' warmer to humans (creature comfort) if the humidity is high. Thus lower setting on the thermostat. Nonono. Repeating this won't make it so :-) Evaporating the water takes far more energy than the lower thermostat setting saves. The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard says a 48x48x8' house with R20 walls and ceiling would be equally comfy at 69.4 F and 20% RH or 68 F and 50% RH. If it's very tight, with 0.5 air changes per hour, would humidification to 50% save energy? G = 48'x48'/R20 + 48x4x8/R20 = 192 Btu/h-F, so dropping the room temp from 69.4 to 68 F saves 1.4x192 = 269 Btu/h. At 69.4 F and 20% RH, Pd = 0.2e^(17.863-9621/(460+69.4)) = 0.1466 "Hg, approximately, with wd = 0.62198/(29.921/0.1466-1) = 0.003063. Air at 68 F and 50% RH has wh = 0.007347. With 0.5x48x48x8/60 = 154 cfm of air leakage, humidifying from wd to wh requires evaporating 154x60x0.075(wh-wd) = 2.96 pounds of water per hour, which requires about 1000x2.96 = 2960 Btu/h of energy, so the net "savings" is 2960-269 = -2691 Btu/h, or minus 64.6K Btu/day, costing about $1/day more with oil heat or $2 per day with electric heat. People tend to forget that evaporating water takes heat energy, even if the "humidifier" uses little energy by itself, and that heat energy has to come from somewhere. And we often get into discussions about health and furniture, vs energy, and forget that caulking (vs humidification) can raise the indoor RH while SAVING vs wasting more heating fuel. Nick |
#8
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Zypher wrote:
Humidifiers actually save fuel... Nonono :-) Nick |
#9
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![]() Hi Zypher, hope you are having a nice day On 13-Nov-04 At About 03:31:39, Zypher wrote to Zypher Subject: Humidifier Question Z From: "Zypher" Z Hi Nick; Z Here's a link for you to read up on [albeit consumer literature but Z it drives the point well.] Z http://lennox.com/pdfs/brochures/Len...umidifiers.pdf it doesn't do any good to show him the truth. This guy is a legend in his own mind and doesn't believe anything other then what he thinks. -= HvacTech2 =- ... "I was up all night trying to round off infinity..." - s.w. ___ TagDude 0.92á+[DM] ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++ spam protection measure, Please remove the 33 to send e-mail |
#10
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Hi Nick;
Here's a link for you to read up on [albeit consumer literature but it drives the point well.] http://lennox.com/pdfs/brochures/Len...umidifiers.pdf "Save energy and money - Because humidified air feels warmer, a humidifier helps lower your heating bills. For example, a 69° temperature at 35% relative humidity feels just as warm as a 72° setting at 19% relative humidity." -- Zyp wrote in message ... Zypher wrote: Humidifiers actually save fuel... Nonono :-) Nick |
#11
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Zypher wrote:
Hi Nick; Hi Zypher, Here's a link for you to read up on [albeit consumer literature but it drives the point well.] http://lennox.com/pdfs/brochures/Len...umidifiers.pdf "Save energy and money - Because humidified air feels warmer, a humidifier helps lower your heating bills. For example, a 69° temperature at 35% relative humidity feels just as warm as a 72° setting at 19% relative humidity." The program in the ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard shows 69 F at 35% is equivalent to 69.8 at 19%. Lennox sells furnaces and humidifiers, and their statement above ignores the heat energy needed to evaporate water, which is far more than the heat energy saved with a lower thermostat setting. Nick |
#12
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I just purchased a Honeywell 260A (?) which comes with a sail switch and
30 VA transformer. I didn't want the hassle of cutting another hole in the cold air return for the sail switch and running a 120VAC circuit to the furnace for the transformer. However, I also didn't want to blow the transformer on the furnace (Lennox G12, circa 1990). I finally got through to a tech person at an HVAC dealership and he told me that the transformers on furnaces are usually 40 VA, which is more than the one that comes with the Honeywell. Make sure you take a voltmeter and check which low-voltage terminals supply 24VAC when the blower is running. Of course, the humidifier would also run in the summer with this configuration, but as long as you're using a humidistat set to 40% or less, the relay will be open and prevent the humidifier from operating. Zypher wrote: Newer furnaces (since 1985) have on their circuit control board provisions for humidifiers. But make sure the board humidifier terminals are for the voltage(s) of the drum humidifier. (Some are 115 volt, and most are 24volt controls.) Then the humidifier will only operate when the furnace is on. (Not all furnaces have this feature though.) Humidifiers actually save fuel. The air temperature 'seems' warmer to humans (creature comfort) if the humidity is high. Thus lower setting on the thermostat. Also, air that is 50% RH can harbor more heat per cubic foot than air that is 30% RH for example. |
#14
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I've installed a few drum type humidifiers, and each have been actuated
only when the fan for the furnace is running. Are you sure you installed it correctly? With many furnaces, you can run the fan continuously, in which case the humidifier may run continuously as well. Time to read your manuals. Dave "nospamplease" wrote in message ... I bought the AirKing rotating drum type humidifier from home depot and installed it on my furnace today, however, something I found it's very stupid by design. I set the % humidity to my desired percentage. However, the humidifier is on even the heat is not on, the drum keeps rotating all the time. It's waste of my electricity. Is it possible to install a device that detects air flow, then turns it on?? is there such as device? Help... please.. |
#15
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HvacTech2 wrote:
Z Here's a link for you to read up on... http://lennox.com/pdfs/brochures/Len...umidifiers.pdf it doesn't do any good to show him the truth. This guy is a legend in his own mind and doesn't believe anything other then what he thinks. It's surprising how little hvac installers know about physics and comfort. You'd think they'd be curious, beyond the everyday nuts and bolts, or feel some sense of responsibility. We might try this in two steps: 1. The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard says 69 F at 39% RH and 69.8 at 19% are equally comfortable (PMV = -0.542.) Do you disagree with this? 2. Keeping a house 69 F at 39% RH uses more energy than keeping a house 69.8 at 19% in wintertime. Do you disagree with this? If so, where are your calculations? Nick |
#16
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![]() "Red Neckerson" wrote in message news:EY%kd.1253$fc.212@trnddc06... "TURTLE" wrote "nospamplease" wrote in message ... I bought the AirKing rotating drum type humidifier from home depot and installed it on my furnace today, however, something I found it's very stupid by design. I set the % humidity to my desired percentage. However, the humidifier is on even the heat is not on, the drum keeps rotating all the time. It's waste of my electricity. Is it possible to install a device that detects air flow, then turns it on?? is there such as device? Help... please.. This is Turtle. Yes there is a switch for this. It is called a Sall switch. It sticks out in the duct and will lift up and turn on anything you want while the air is moving. then when it stops the sall switch will cut it off. Now you can use a isolation relay to do the same thing. It's nothing to set up. (Turtle meant to say SAIL switch) There is also a current sensing relay that is wrapped around the common wire of the fan. I can tell you though: Even if than little 24 volt motor (on the humidifier) ran all day, it would probably use 1 ir 2 cents worth of electricity..... This is Turtle. I don't have a Boat so I don't know how to sold. TURTLE |
#17
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![]() "Joe Fabeitz" wrote in message .. . Stick that "current sensing relay" around the low speed blower motor lead instead of the common wire. That way it will allow the humidifier to run while in "heat" mode but not in "cool" mode. Assumes OP has central air, as well. This is Turtle. How about putting it around the 115 volts going to the Fire Chamber vent fan motor of the gas furnace and would only run in heat mode. TURTLE |
#18
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HvacTech2 wrote:
Z Here's a link for you to read up on... http://lennox.com/pdfs/brochures/Len...umidifiers.pdf it doesn't do any good to show him the truth. This guy is a legend in his own mind and doesn't believe anything other then what he thinks. It's surprising how little hvac installers know about physics and comfort. You'd think they'd be curious, beyond the everyday nuts and bolts, or feel some sense of responsibility. We might try this in two steps: 1. The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard says 69 F at 39% RH and 69.8 at 19% are equally comfortable (PMV = -0.542.) Do you disagree with this? 2. Keeping a house 69 F at 39% RH uses more energy than keeping a house 69.8 at 19% in wintertime. Do you disagree with this? If so, where are your calculations? No disagreements? No calculations? :-) Let's try again, from the top: I suspect that winter humidification wastes vs saves heating energy, and the savings claim is an energy myth. People tend to forget that evaporating water takes heat energy, and that heat energy has to come from somewhere, even if something like a humidifier belt motor uses little energy by itself. The heat saved by turning a thermostat down appears to be far less than the extra heat used to evaporate water, in all but extremely tight houses, eg submarines. http://lennox.com/pdfs/brochures/Len...umidifiers.pdf claims that 69 F at 35% RH and 72 F at 19% RH are equally comfortable, but the BASIC program in the new ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard predicts that 69 F and 35% RH and 69.8 at 19% RH are equally comfortable (PMV = -0.542.) If a 2400 ft^2 tight house has 0.5 ACH and say, 400 Btu/h-F of conductance, turning the thermostat down from 69.8 to 69 saves (69.8-69)400 = 320 Btu/h. Air at 69 F and 100% RH has humidity ratio w = 0.015832 pounds of water per pound of dry air, so 19% air has wl = 0.00301, and 39% air has wh = 0.00617. Raising 69 F air from 19 to 39% requires evaporating wh-wl = 0.00316 pounds of water per pound of dry air. Dry air weighs about 0.075 lb per cubic foot. With 0.5x2400x8/60 = 160 cfm or 9600 ft^3/h or 720 pounds per hour of air leakage, raising the indoor RH from 19 to 39% requires evaporating 720x0.00316 = 2.275 pounds of water per hour, which requires about 2275 Btu/h of heat energy. Humid air seems healthier and may prevent furniture cracking and static electricity, but serious air sealing seems like a better solution, with blower door testing. Houses have natural humidity sources. Andersen says an average family of 4 evaporates 2 gallons per day of water by breathing, cleaning, cooking, and so on. Unlike humidification, more air sealing can raise the RH while saving vs wasting heat energy. Nick |
#19
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Sure evaporating water wastes energy, but it is a matter of comfort,
static electricity, cracked wood etc. Plants and sealing the house can do alot, but for most not enough. |
#20
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I would like to see real calculations showing one way or the other.
That said, there are health reasons to humidify and there are health reasons not to, if you don't clean the humidifier and let mold and bacteria grow. But, back to the original question, a house that is very leaky will cause the humidifier to run much more than a tight house. Before I replaced my windows the humidifer would run all winter long (in the Chicago area). With the new windows, it might run once during a severe cold snap. Last winter is never ran. BTW, the windows were replaced 10 or 12 years ago, so I have had many years to monitor this. So, any calculations must take this into account also. wrote: HvacTech2 wrote: Z Here's a link for you to read up on... http://lennox.com/pdfs/brochures/Len...umidifiers.pdf it doesn't do any good to show him the truth. This guy is a legend in his own mind and doesn't believe anything other then what he thinks. It's surprising how little hvac installers know about physics and comfort. You'd think they'd be curious, beyond the everyday nuts and bolts, or feel some sense of responsibility. We might try this in two steps: 1. The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard says 69 F at 39% RH and 69.8 at 19% are equally comfortable (PMV = -0.542.) Do you disagree with this? 2. Keeping a house 69 F at 39% RH uses more energy than keeping a house 69.8 at 19% in wintertime. Do you disagree with this? If so, where are your calculations? No disagreements? No calculations? :-) Let's try again, from the top: I suspect that winter humidification wastes vs saves heating energy, and the savings claim is an energy myth. People tend to forget that evaporating water takes heat energy, and that heat energy has to come from somewhere, even if something like a humidifier belt motor uses little energy by itself. The heat saved by turning a thermostat down appears to be far less than the extra heat used to evaporate water, in all but extremely tight houses, eg submarines. http://lennox.com/pdfs/brochures/Len...umidifiers.pdf claims that 69 F at 35% RH and 72 F at 19% RH are equally comfortable, but the BASIC program in the new ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard predicts that 69 F and 35% RH and 69.8 at 19% RH are equally comfortable (PMV = -0.542.) If a 2400 ft^2 tight house has 0.5 ACH and say, 400 Btu/h-F of conductance, turning the thermostat down from 69.8 to 69 saves (69.8-69)400 = 320 Btu/h. Air at 69 F and 100% RH has humidity ratio w = 0.015832 pounds of water per pound of dry air, so 19% air has wl = 0.00301, and 39% air has wh = 0.00617. Raising 69 F air from 19 to 39% requires evaporating wh-wl = 0.00316 pounds of water per pound of dry air. Dry air weighs about 0.075 lb per cubic foot. With 0.5x2400x8/60 = 160 cfm or 9600 ft^3/h or 720 pounds per hour of air leakage, raising the indoor RH from 19 to 39% requires evaporating 720x0.00316 = 2.275 pounds of water per hour, which requires about 2275 Btu/h of heat energy. Humid air seems healthier and may prevent furniture cracking and static electricity, but serious air sealing seems like a better solution, with blower door testing. Houses have natural humidity sources. Andersen says an average family of 4 evaporates 2 gallons per day of water by breathing, cleaning, cooking, and so on. Unlike humidification, more air sealing can raise the RH while saving vs wasting heat energy. Nick |
#21
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You can say what you want about humidifiers, but I had an Aprilaire 600
installed on my new Carrier furnace return air duct and (my new ranch style home is 2,880 sq feet) since I did my throat is not dry and sore every morning I get up and I don't have hock my socks off to clear out my throat. Also, static electricity has been eliminated in my home. I also think that my gas bill will be cheaper with proper humidification. I disagree with you who say home humidification is a farce. Of course one should not over humidify and have their windows all steamed up and their walls dripping with condensation. Common sense comes into play. "Art Todesco" wrote in message news ![]() I would like to see real calculations showing one way or the other. That said, there are health reasons to humidify and there are health reasons not to, if you don't clean the humidifier and let mold and bacteria grow. But, back to the original question, a house that is very leaky will cause the humidifier to run much more than a tight house. Before I replaced my windows the humidifer would run all winter long (in the Chicago area). With the new windows, it might run once during a severe cold snap. Last winter is never ran. BTW, the windows were replaced 10 or 12 years ago, so I have had many years to monitor this. So, any calculations must take this into account also. wrote: HvacTech2 wrote: Z Here's a link for you to read up on... http://lennox.com/pdfs/brochures/Len...umidifiers.pdf it doesn't do any good to show him the truth. This guy is a legend in his own mind and doesn't believe anything other then what he thinks. It's surprising how little hvac installers know about physics and comfort. You'd think they'd be curious, beyond the everyday nuts and bolts, or feel some sense of responsibility. We might try this in two steps: 1. The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard says 69 F at 39% RH and 69.8 at 19% are equally comfortable (PMV = -0.542.) Do you disagree with this? 2. Keeping a house 69 F at 39% RH uses more energy than keeping a house 69.8 at 19% in wintertime. Do you disagree with this? If so, where are your calculations? No disagreements? No calculations? :-) Let's try again, from the top: I suspect that winter humidification wastes vs saves heating energy, and the savings claim is an energy myth. People tend to forget that evaporating water takes heat energy, and that heat energy has to come from somewhere, even if something like a humidifier belt motor uses little energy by itself. The heat saved by turning a thermostat down appears to be far less than the extra heat used to evaporate water, in all but extremely tight houses, eg submarines. http://lennox.com/pdfs/brochures/Len...umidifiers.pdf claims that 69 F at 35% RH and 72 F at 19% RH are equally comfortable, but the BASIC program in the new ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard predicts that 69 F and 35% RH and 69.8 at 19% RH are equally comfortable (PMV = -0.542.) If a 2400 ft^2 tight house has 0.5 ACH and say, 400 Btu/h-F of conductance, turning the thermostat down from 69.8 to 69 saves (69.8-69)400 = 320 Btu/h. Air at 69 F and 100% RH has humidity ratio w = 0.015832 pounds of water per pound of dry air, so 19% air has wl = 0.00301, and 39% air has wh = 0.00617. Raising 69 F air from 19 to 39% requires evaporating wh-wl = 0.00316 pounds of water per pound of dry air. Dry air weighs about 0.075 lb per cubic foot. With 0.5x2400x8/60 = 160 cfm or 9600 ft^3/h or 720 pounds per hour of air leakage, raising the indoor RH from 19 to 39% requires evaporating 720x0.00316 = 2.275 pounds of water per hour, which requires about 2275 Btu/h of heat energy. Humid air seems healthier and may prevent furniture cracking and static electricity, but serious air sealing seems like a better solution, with blower door testing. Houses have natural humidity sources. Andersen says an average family of 4 evaporates 2 gallons per day of water by breathing, cleaning, cooking, and so on. Unlike humidification, more air sealing can raise the RH while saving vs wasting heat energy. Nick |
#22
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wrote:
You can say what you want about humidifiers... Thanks Ace. They waste energy. I also think that my gas bill will be cheaper with proper humidification. I disagree. Perhaps you have no understanding of physics. I disagree with you who say home humidification is a farce. I never said that. Perhaps you have no understanding of English :-) Have a nice day. Nick |
#23
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On 16 Nov 2004 09:41:34 -0500, wrote:
HvacTech2 wrote: Z Here's a link for you to read up on... http://lennox.com/pdfs/brochures/Len...umidifiers.pdf it doesn't do any good to show him the truth. This guy is a legend in his own mind and doesn't believe anything other then what he thinks. It's surprising how little hvac installers know about physics and comfort. You'd think they'd be curious, beyond the everyday nuts and bolts, or feel some sense of responsibility. We might try this in two steps: 1. The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard says 69 F at 39% RH and 69.8 at 19% are equally comfortable (PMV = -0.542.) Do you disagree with this? 2. Keeping a house 69 F at 39% RH uses more energy than keeping a house 69.8 at 19% in wintertime. Do you disagree with this? If so, where are your calculations? No disagreements? No calculations? :-) Let's try again, from the top: I suspect that winter humidification wastes vs saves heating energy, and the savings claim is an energy myth. People tend to forget that evaporating water takes heat energy, and that heat energy has to come from somewhere, even if something like a humidifier belt motor uses little energy by itself. The heat saved by turning a thermostat down appears to be far less than the extra heat used to evaporate water, in all but extremely tight houses, eg submarines. http://lennox.com/pdfs/brochures/Len...umidifiers.pdf claims that 69 F at 35% RH and 72 F at 19% RH are equally comfortable, but the BASIC program in the new ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard predicts that 69 F and 35% RH and 69.8 at 19% RH are equally comfortable (PMV = -0.542.) If a 2400 ft^2 tight house has 0.5 ACH and say, 400 Btu/h-F of conductance, turning the thermostat down from 69.8 to 69 saves (69.8-69)400 = 320 Btu/h. Air at 69 F and 100% RH has humidity ratio w = 0.015832 pounds of water per pound of dry air, so 19% air has wl = 0.00301, and 39% air has wh = 0.00617. Raising 69 F air from 19 to 39% requires evaporating wh-wl = 0.00316 pounds of water per pound of dry air. Dry air weighs about 0.075 lb per cubic foot. With 0.5x2400x8/60 = 160 cfm or 9600 ft^3/h or 720 pounds per hour of air leakage, raising the indoor RH from 19 to 39% requires evaporating 720x0.00316 = 2.275 pounds of water per hour, which requires about 2275 Btu/h of heat energy. Humid air seems healthier and may prevent furniture cracking and static electricity, but serious air sealing seems like a better solution, with blower door testing. Houses have natural humidity sources. Andersen says an average family of 4 evaporates 2 gallons per day of water by breathing, cleaning, cooking, and so on. Unlike humidification, more air sealing can raise the RH while saving vs wasting heat energy. Nick Since you seem to love math (I can do it but I hate it), let's give you a little challenge: Let's assume the same house. The indoor conditions are to be maintained at 70F and 40% RH (because the homeowner likes it that way). This translates to an indoor dewpoint temperature of about 44F. When the outdoor dewpoint drops below 44F, that 160CFM of infiltration air will need to be humidified, right? But wait, we have our family of four providing 2 gallons per day of humidity. Thus we can drop to a lower outdoor dewpoint before extra humidification is needed for the infiltration air. So here is the mission, should you choose to accept it: At what outdoor dewpoint temperature do we need to start adding moisture in order to maintain our 70F and 40% RH? What if the house were half the square footage (1200 sq ft)? Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com |
#24
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Gary R. Lloyd wrote:
Let's assume the same house. The indoor conditions are to be maintained at 70F and 40% RH (because the homeowner likes it that way). This translates to an indoor dewpoint temperature of about 44F. Td = 530/(1-530ln(0.4)/9621)-460 = 44.5. Pi =0.4e^(17.863-9621/530) = 0.2994 "Hg... wi = 0.62198/(29.921/Pi-1) = 0.006286 pounds of water per pound of dry air. When the outdoor dewpoint drops below 44F, that 160CFM of infiltration air will need to be humidified, right? Somehow... But wait, we have our family of four providing 2 gallons per day... 2x8.33/24/60 = 0.0116 lb/min. Thus we can drop to a lower outdoor dewpoint before extra humidification is needed for the infiltration air. Sure. At what outdoor dewpoint temperature do we need to start adding moisture in order to maintain our 70F and 40% RH? When 160x0.075(wi-wo) 0.0116, ie wo wi - 0.000966 = 0.005319 and Po = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.2357 "Hg and Td = 9621/(17.863-ln(Pi))-460 = 40.2 F. What if the house were half the square footage (1200 sq ft)? When 80x0.075(wi-wo) 0.0116, ie wo wi - 0.001933 = 0.004353 and Po = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.2079 "Hg and Td = 9621/(17.863-ln(Pi))-460 = 35.1 F, if it has half the air leakage. Nick |
#25
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I suggest we ignore the so-called no-it-all and if it makes one more
comfortable in ones home with the proper amount of humidification, and makes one feel better physically, plus the other benefits it provides, go ahead and do it! If Einstein does not believe in it that's his problem. wrote in message ... Gary R. Lloyd wrote: Let's assume the same house. The indoor conditions are to be maintained at 70F and 40% RH (because the homeowner likes it that way). This translates to an indoor dewpoint temperature of about 44F. Td = 530/(1-530ln(0.4)/9621)-460 = 44.5. Pi =0.4e^(17.863-9621/530) = 0.2994 "Hg... wi = 0.62198/(29.921/Pi-1) = 0.006286 pounds of water per pound of dry air. When the outdoor dewpoint drops below 44F, that 160CFM of infiltration air will need to be humidified, right? Somehow... But wait, we have our family of four providing 2 gallons per day... 2x8.33/24/60 = 0.0116 lb/min. Thus we can drop to a lower outdoor dewpoint before extra humidification is needed for the infiltration air. Sure. At what outdoor dewpoint temperature do we need to start adding moisture in order to maintain our 70F and 40% RH? When 160x0.075(wi-wo) 0.0116, ie wo wi - 0.000966 = 0.005319 and Po = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.2357 "Hg and Td = 9621/(17.863-ln(Pi))-460 = 40.2 F. What if the house were half the square footage (1200 sq ft)? When 80x0.075(wi-wo) 0.0116, ie wo wi - 0.001933 = 0.004353 and Po = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.2079 "Hg and Td = 9621/(17.863-ln(Pi))-460 = 35.1 F, if it has half the air leakage. Nick |
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On 17 Nov 2004 11:10:51 -0500, wrote:
Gary R. Lloyd wrote: Let's assume the same house. The indoor conditions are to be maintained at 70F and 40% RH (because the homeowner likes it that way). This translates to an indoor dewpoint temperature of about 44F. Td = 530/(1-530ln(0.4)/9621)-460 = 44.5. Pi =0.4e^(17.863-9621/530) = 0.2994 "Hg... wi = 0.62198/(29.921/Pi-1) = 0.006286 pounds of water per pound of dry air. When the outdoor dewpoint drops below 44F, that 160CFM of infiltration air will need to be humidified, right? Somehow... But wait, we have our family of four providing 2 gallons per day... 2x8.33/24/60 = 0.0116 lb/min. Thus we can drop to a lower outdoor dewpoint before extra humidification is needed for the infiltration air. Sure. At what outdoor dewpoint temperature do we need to start adding moisture in order to maintain our 70F and 40% RH? When 160x0.075(wi-wo) 0.0116, ie wo wi - 0.000966 = 0.005319 and Po = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.2357 "Hg and Td = 9621/(17.863-ln(Pi))-460 = 40.2 F. What if the house were half the square footage (1200 sq ft)? When 80x0.075(wi-wo) 0.0116, ie wo wi - 0.001933 = 0.004353 and Po = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.2079 "Hg and Td = 9621/(17.863-ln(Pi))-460 = 35.1 F, if it has half the air leakage. Nick Hmmmmm... Considering that our family of 4 needs 15CFM of fresh air each, for a total of 60CFM, I don't think we want to tighten a house up much more than that. Just for a rough rule of thumb: It seems that when outdoor temps start dipping below freezing at night, our options are to humidify or to accept lower indoor humidity. On the other hand, if our humidity drops below 40% before the outdoor temps drop below freezing at night, then we need to seal up the house. Does that sound about right? Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com |
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Gary R. Lloyd wrote:
At what outdoor dewpoint temperature do we need to start adding moisture in order to maintain our 70F and 40% RH? When 160x0.075(wi-wo) 0.0116, ie wo wi - 0.000966 = 0.005319 and Po = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.2357 "Hg and Td = 9621/(17.863-ln(Pi))-460 = 40.2 F... Considering that our family of 4 needs 15CFM of fresh air each... I don't think we want to tighten a house up much more than that. I think we do, with positive ventilation as needed. Nick |
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On 17 Nov 2004 20:03:44 -0500, wrote:
Gary R. Lloyd wrote: At what outdoor dewpoint temperature do we need to start adding moisture in order to maintain our 70F and 40% RH? When 160x0.075(wi-wo) 0.0116, ie wo wi - 0.000966 = 0.005319 and Po = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.2357 "Hg and Td = 9621/(17.863-ln(Pi))-460 = 40.2 F... Considering that our family of 4 needs 15CFM of fresh air each... I don't think we want to tighten a house up much more than that. I think we do, with positive ventilation as needed. Nick When it comes to something as vital as providing sufficient air to breathe, I would lean heavily towards passive solutions and overkill, i.e. leakage. It's about human health and comfort. Screw the energy efficiency. People in dry climates are acclimated to their environment, and thus would have no problem with low humidity. People who suffer through high temperature and humidity throughout the summer are not equipped to put up with low humidity in the winter. Besides, my grandmother's antique dining room set doesn't like low humidity, so that settles it. Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com |
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Art Todesco wrote:
I would like to see real calculations showing one way or the other. You've seen 'em. Nick |
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Gary R. Lloyd wrote:
At what outdoor dewpoint temperature do we need to start adding moisture in order to maintain our 70F and 40% RH? When 160x0.075(wi-wo) 0.0116, ie wo wi - 0.000966 = 0.005319 and Po = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.2357 "Hg and Td = 9621/(17.863-ln(Pi))-460 = 40.2 F. It seems that when outdoor temps start dipping below freezing at night, our options are to humidify or to accept lower indoor humidity. I wonder why you wrote that. Another option is air sealing to raise the RH. BTW, we've only discussed the outdoor dewpoint (vs. dry bulb) temperature. On the other hand, if our humidity drops below 40% before the outdoor temps drop below freezing at night, then we need to seal up the house. Air sealing is good in any case. "Make it tight, and vent it right." Nick |
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Gary R. Lloyd wrote:
When it comes to something as vital as providing sufficient air to breathe, I would lean heavily towards passive solutions and overkill, i.e. leakage. It's about human health and comfort. Screw the energy efficiency. Spoken like an HVAC criminal :-) But we can enjoy "human health and comfort" with less energy consumption if we do air sealing first. It would be extraordinarily difficult to seal up a house so tight that a person could not breathe. And most people would open windows as needed to avoid condensation and lower the indoor RH. That's also easy to do with a small exhaust fan and a humidistat. Herbach and Rademan (800) 848-8001 http://www.herbach.com sell a nice brass $4.95 Navy surplus humidistat, item number TM89HVC5203, with a 20-80% range, a 3-6% differential, and a 7.5A 125V switch that can be wired to open or close on humidity rise. People in dry climates are acclimated to their environment, and thus would have no problem with low humidity. People who suffer through high temperature and humidity throughout the summer are not equipped to put up with low humidity in the winter. In what sense? How do you know? Where is your evidence? Then again, living with low humidity is only one option. It's better to raise the RH and lower the fuel bill with more air sealing. Besides, my grandmother's antique dining room set doesn't like low humidity, so that settles it. Is it better to airseal your house to assuage the feelings of your grandmother's antique dining room set, or humidify the house and dramatically increase the fuel bill and invade Iran to keep the price of oil low? :-) Nick |
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On 18 Nov 2004 09:40:18 -0500, wrote:
Gary R. Lloyd wrote: When it comes to something as vital as providing sufficient air to breathe, I would lean heavily towards passive solutions and overkill, i.e. leakage. It's about human health and comfort. Screw the energy efficiency. Spoken like an HVAC criminal :-) But we can enjoy "human health and comfort" with less energy consumption if we do air sealing first. Show me. It would be extraordinarily difficult to seal up a house so tight that a person could not breathe. And most people would open windows as needed to avoid condensation and lower the indoor RH. That's also easy to do with a small exhaust fan and a humidistat. Seal up the house and then open the window? Oddly enough, I think that's what a lot of people do. Herbach and Rademan (800) 848-8001 http://www.herbach.com sell a nice brass $4.95 Navy surplus humidistat, item number TM89HVC5203, with a 20-80% range, a 3-6% differential, and a 7.5A 125V switch that can be wired to open or close on humidity rise. And if the control fails? People in dry climates are acclimated to their environment, and thus would have no problem with low humidity. People who suffer through high temperature and humidity throughout the summer are not equipped to put up with low humidity in the winter. In what sense? How do you know? Where is your evidence? I have no intention of proving anything. Then again, living with low humidity is only one option. It's better to raise the RH and lower the fuel bill with more air sealing. Actually, I'm a big fan of sealing up the house, but I draw the line at putting a plastic bag over people's heads. Besides, my grandmother's antique dining room set doesn't like low humidity, so that settles it. Is it better to airseal your house to assuage the feelings of your grandmother's antique dining room set, or humidify the house and dramatically increase the fuel bill and invade Iran to keep the price of oil low? :-) Let's try to stay on subject, shall we? Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com |
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On 18 Nov 2004 09:17:10 -0500, wrote:
Gary R. Lloyd wrote: At what outdoor dewpoint temperature do we need to start adding moisture in order to maintain our 70F and 40% RH? When 160x0.075(wi-wo) 0.0116, ie wo wi - 0.000966 = 0.005319 and Po = 29.921/(0.62198/wo+1) = 0.2357 "Hg and Td = 9621/(17.863-ln(Pi))-460 = 40.2 F. It seems that when outdoor temps start dipping below freezing at night, our options are to humidify or to accept lower indoor humidity. I wonder why you wrote that. Another option is air sealing to raise the RH. BTW, we've only discussed the outdoor dewpoint (vs. dry bulb) temperature. Hence calling it a rough rule of thumb. On the other hand, if our humidity drops below 40% before the outdoor temps drop below freezing at night, then we need to seal up the house. Air sealing is good in any case. "Make it tight, and vent it right." To a point. Our energy-is-all-that-matters geniuses have given us lots of unintended consequences, such as sick buildings and enormous mold problems (which they are trying to blame on contractors). What next? As far as I am concerned, they are fast losing their credibility. Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com |
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Gary R. Lloyd wrote:
When it comes to something as vital as providing sufficient air to breathe, I would lean heavily towards passive solutions and overkill, i.e. leakage. It's about human health and comfort. Screw the energy efficiency. Spoken like an HVAC criminal :-) But we can enjoy "human health and comfort" with less energy consumption if we do air sealing first. Show me. Done that, several times now. It would be extraordinarily difficult to seal up a house so tight that a person could not breathe. And most people would open windows as needed to avoid condensation and lower the indoor RH. That's also easy to do with a small exhaust fan and a humidistat. Seal up the house and then open the window? Oddly enough, I think that's what a lot of people do. Oh? Herbach and Rademan (800) 848-8001 http://www.herbach.com sell a nice brass $4.95 Navy surplus humidistat, item number TM89HVC5203, with a 20-80% range, a 3-6% differential, and a 7.5A 125V switch that can be wired to open or close on humidity rise. And if the control fails? We suffocate like dogs. People in dry climates are acclimated to their environment, and thus would have no problem with low humidity. People who suffer through high temperature and humidity throughout the summer are not equipped to put up with low humidity in the winter. In what sense? How do you know? Where is your evidence? I have no intention of proving anything. Good idea. Perhaps you recall your last attempt at proving something, in which you confused dew point and wet bulb temps :-) ...my grandmother's antique dining room set doesn't like low humidity, so that settles it. Is it better to airseal your house to assuage the feelings of your grandmother's antique dining room set, or humidify the house and dramatically increase the fuel bill and invade Iran to keep the price of oil low? :-) Let's try to stay on subject, shall we? People are different. Avoiding Middle-East wars is a primary motivation for using less fossil fuels, in my case. Nick |
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On 18 Nov 2004 18:02:29 -0500, wrote:
Gary R. Lloyd wrote: When it comes to something as vital as providing sufficient air to breathe, I would lean heavily towards passive solutions and overkill, i.e. leakage. It's about human health and comfort. Screw the energy efficiency. Spoken like an HVAC criminal :-) But we can enjoy "human health and comfort" with less energy consumption if we do air sealing first. Show me. Done that, several times now. You forgot to show me the health and comfort part. It would be extraordinarily difficult to seal up a house so tight that a person could not breathe. And most people would open windows as needed to avoid condensation and lower the indoor RH. That's also easy to do with a small exhaust fan and a humidistat. Seal up the house and then open the window? Oddly enough, I think that's what a lot of people do. Oh? Herbach and Rademan (800) 848-8001 http://www.herbach.com sell a nice brass $4.95 Navy surplus humidistat, item number TM89HVC5203, with a 20-80% range, a 3-6% differential, and a 7.5A 125V switch that can be wired to open or close on humidity rise. And if the control fails? We suffocate like dogs. Is this an example of showing me? People in dry climates are acclimated to their environment, and thus would have no problem with low humidity. People who suffer through high temperature and humidity throughout the summer are not equipped to put up with low humidity in the winter. In what sense? How do you know? Where is your evidence? I have no intention of proving anything. Good idea. Perhaps you recall your last attempt at proving something, in which you confused dew point and wet bulb temps :-) I didn't confuse anything. I offered a rough rule of thumb based on DB, and said it was a rough rule of thumb. ...my grandmother's antique dining room set doesn't like low humidity, so that settles it. Is it better to airseal your house to assuage the feelings of your grandmother's antique dining room set, or humidify the house and dramatically increase the fuel bill and invade Iran to keep the price of oil low? :-) Let's try to stay on subject, shall we? People are different. Avoiding Middle-East wars is a primary motivation for using less fossil fuels, in my case. Wars are a diversionary tactic. "LOOK OVER THERE. ITS A WAR" (insert hand remove wallet) Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com |
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Gary R. Lloyd wrote:
...we can enjoy "human health and comfort" with less energy consumption if we do air sealing first. Show me. Done that, several times now. You forgot to show me the health and comfort part. That's your job, as a higher-humidity proponent. You've seen the comfort part (ASHRAE 55-2004) several times now. I'm not sure health has much to do with low humidity. At any rate, unlike mechanical humidification, air sealing can raise humidity while lowering vs raising fuel bills. Herbach and Rademan (800) 848-8001 http://www.herbach.com sell a nice brass $4.95 Navy surplus humidistat, item number TM89HVC5203, with a 20-80% range, a 3-6% differential, and a 7.5A 125V switch that can be wired to open or close on humidity rise. And if the control fails? We suffocate like dogs. Is this an example of showing me? No. This is an example of humor. People in dry climates are acclimated to their environment, and thus would have no problem with low humidity. People who suffer through high temperature and humidity throughout the summer are not equipped to put up with low humidity in the winter. In what sense? How do you know? Where is your evidence? I have no intention of proving anything. Good idea. Perhaps you recall your last attempt at proving something, in which you confused dew point and wet bulb temps :-) I didn't confuse anything. I offered a rough rule of thumb based on DB, and said it was a rough rule of thumb. That was this time. Last time (in August of 2002) you confused dew point and wet bulb temps. It's surprising how little hvac "tech method gurus" know about physics. ...my grandmother's antique dining room set doesn't like low humidity, so that settles it. Is it better to airseal your house to assuage the feelings of your grandmother's antique dining room set, or humidify the house and dramatically increase the fuel bill and invade Iran to keep the price of oil low? :-) Let's try to stay on subject, shall we? People are different. Avoiding Middle-East wars is a primary motivation for using less fossil fuels, in my case. Wars are a diversionary tactic. "LOOK OVER THERE. ITS A WAR" Chacun a sa guerre. http://dailydig.bruderhof.org/us/TodaysDig.htm Nick |
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On 19 Nov 2004 07:32:20 -0500, wrote:
Gary R. Lloyd wrote: ...we can enjoy "human health and comfort" with less energy consumption if we do air sealing first. Show me. Done that, several times now. You forgot to show me the health and comfort part. That's your job, as a higher-humidity proponent. You've seen the comfort part (ASHRAE 55-2004) several times now. I'm not sure health has much to do with low humidity. At any rate, unlike mechanical humidification, air sealing can raise humidity while lowering vs raising fuel bills. You are the one who wants to seal people up in a bubble and pump in the air. It is up to you to show us that it is healthy and foolproof. Herbach and Rademan (800) 848-8001 http://www.herbach.com sell a nice brass $4.95 Navy surplus humidistat, item number TM89HVC5203, with a 20-80% range, a 3-6% differential, and a 7.5A 125V switch that can be wired to open or close on humidity rise. And if the control fails? We suffocate like dogs. Is this an example of showing me? No. This is an example of humor. As was my response to it. People in dry climates are acclimated to their environment, and thus would have no problem with low humidity. People who suffer through high temperature and humidity throughout the summer are not equipped to put up with low humidity in the winter. In what sense? How do you know? Where is your evidence? I have no intention of proving anything. Good idea. Perhaps you recall your last attempt at proving something, in which you confused dew point and wet bulb temps :-) I didn't confuse anything. I offered a rough rule of thumb based on DB, and said it was a rough rule of thumb. That was this time. Last time (in August of 2002) you confused dew point and wet bulb temps. It's surprising how little hvac "tech method gurus" know about physics. The two are close enough to be considered the same for practical purposes, but then you are not concerned with what is practical, so we can't expect you to understand. ...my grandmother's antique dining room set doesn't like low humidity, so that settles it. Is it better to airseal your house to assuage the feelings of your grandmother's antique dining room set, or humidify the house and dramatically increase the fuel bill and invade Iran to keep the price of oil low? :-) Let's try to stay on subject, shall we? People are different. Avoiding Middle-East wars is a primary motivation for using less fossil fuels, in my case. Wars are a diversionary tactic. "LOOK OVER THERE. ITS A WAR" Chacun a sa guerre. http://dailydig.bruderhof.org/us/TodaysDig.htm Funny article. Well written. Gary R. Lloyd CMS HVACR Troubleshooting Books/Software http://www.techmethod.com |
#39
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![]() Herbach and Rademan (800) 848-8001 http://www.herbach.com sell a nice brass $4.95 Navy surplus humidistat, item number TM89HVC5203, with a 20-80% range, a 3-6% differential, and a 7.5A 125V switch that can be wired to open or close on humidity rise. And if the control fails? We suffocate like dogs. Low tech way of getting humidity into the air and saving on heating bills! A pan of water near the heating duct .......... over it, under it, whatever ...... near it. Joel Is this an example of showing me? No. This is an example of humor. |
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 09:36:21 -0500, Joel M. Eichen
wrote: Herbach and Rademan (800) 848-8001 http://www.herbach.com sell a nice brass $4.95 Navy surplus humidistat, item number TM89HVC5203, with a 20-80% range, a 3-6% differential, and a 7.5A 125V switch that can be wired to open or close on humidity rise. And if the control fails? We suffocate like dogs. Low tech way of getting humidity into the air and saving on heating bills! A pan of water near the heating duct .......... over it, under it, whatever ...... near it. Joel Some people just toss their towel over the rail where the forced air can dry it out nicely ... Makes it nice and toasty for the next shower too! Dentists use hot towel warmers but this is better ...... Joel Is this an example of showing me? No. This is an example of humor. |
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