I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder
spec'ed for two zone heat. He called my yesterday and said after he met
with his mechanicals subcontractor that two zones were probably not
enough since the room over the mudroom and the room over garage were (I
guess) to far away from the furnace to be efficiently heated. He was
suggesting we add a heat pump for those two rooms (with AC of course).
We live in Northeast and I am worried this would be terribly expensive
solution. I questioned him about adding a third zone and he said he'd
get back to me after talking to the sub again. Does a heat pump make
sense? I don't understand why a third zone couldn't be added fairly
easily. Is this a cost issue? Wouldn't a larger BTU furnace do the
job? Our contract specified two zone heat, is this something I should
have to pay extra for or would this be his cost.
Thanks in adavance for any advice you have.

From: TN


I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder
spec'ed for two zone heat. He called my yesterday and said after he met
with his mechanicals subcontractor that two zones were probably not
enough since the room over the mudroom and the room over garage were (I
guess) to far away from the furnace to be efficiently heated. He was
suggesting we add a heat pump for those two rooms (with AC of course).
We live in Northeast and I am worried this would be terribly expensive
solution. I questioned him about adding a third zone and he said he'd
get back to me after talking to the sub again. Does a heat pump make
sense? I don't understand why a third zone couldn't be added fairly
easily. Is this a cost issue? Wouldn't a larger BTU furnace do the
job? Our contract specified two zone heat, is this something I should
have to pay extra for or would this be his cost.
Thanks in adavance for any advice you have.

There are plenty of options. Unless you're getting cheap hydropower, don't even
think about going with a heat pump in the Northeast. Energy-wise it's about as
bad as electric heat, and even worse after you factor in the equipment cost,
the installation cost, and the maintainence cost.

"TN" wrote in message
...
I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder spec'ed
for two zone heat. He called my yesterday and said after he met with his
mechanicals subcontractor that two zones were probably not enough since the
room over the mudroom and the room over garage were (I guess) to far away
from the furnace to be efficiently heated. He was suggesting we add a heat
pump for those two rooms (with AC of course).


Wouldn't a larger BTU furnace do the job? Our contract specified two zone
heat, is this something I should have to pay extra for or would this be
his cost.
Thanks in adavance for any advice you have.

Talk to another mechanical contractor. We can't see the layout of the rooms
so it is not possible to give sound advice. You mention furnace. Is it
going to be hot air heat? If so, distribution may be a problem in those
areas and not very efficient. You also will need a huge furnace heating up
when only two rooms need the heat. There are losses there. Potential big
loss.

Do you mean a boiler with zoned hot water? Easier to distribute, but still
some losses along the way.

Get another opinion. As for cost, there will be a line in there for heat.
Dropping those rooms from the original plan will offset some, but probably
not all, of the heat pump cost. Not having read your contract, I don't
know if it is a variable or not.

"TN" wrote in message
...
I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder spec'ed for
two zone heat. He called my yesterday and said after he met with his
mechanicals subcontractor that two zones were probably not enough since the
room over the mudroom and the room over garage were (I guess) to far away from
the furnace to be efficiently heated. He was suggesting we add a heat pump for
those two rooms (with AC of course). We live in Northeast and I am worried this
would be terribly expensive solution. I questioned him about adding a third
zone and he said he'd get back to me after talking to the sub again. Does a
heat pump make sense? I don't understand why a third zone couldn't be added
fairly easily. Is this a cost issue? Wouldn't a larger BTU furnace do the
job? Our contract specified two zone heat, is this something I should have to
pay extra for or would this be his cost.
Thanks in adavance for any advice you have.

This is Turtle.

One thing here and when there is any changes to the first aggreement -- You are
going to pay for it. There is a old rule in the hvac business that says when the
contractor starts paying for the system to be installed , He should not do the
job.

Now using a Heat pump for the 3 rd zone : You may look at a another gas / hvac
system / hot air type system just for the 3rd zone. Now Heap pump is still not
out of the question for the cost of a heap pump and another gas or oil heating
system are not much difference on cost. The Heat pump may be a little cheaper
for not having venting system and oil or gas lines run to it.

Now having a small area heated by a heat pump would not be a big cost item for
operation but gas or oil fuel would be a hair cheaper.

Now when you have a 3rd zone far off from the other 2 zones does make a problem
with tring to keep a even heat in all zones. I can't see it from here but this
is what it seem to be here.

Don't listen to [ Ha Ha Budys here ] for he is our resident Troll and want to
feel like he is somebody.

TURTLE

From: "TURTLE"


"TN" wrote in message
...
I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder spec'ed
for
two zone heat. He called my yesterday and said after he met with his
mechanicals subcontractor that two zones were probably not enough since the
room over the mudroom and the room over garage were (I guess) to far away
from
the furnace to be efficiently heated. He was suggesting we add a heat pump
for
those two rooms (with AC of course). We live in Northeast and I am worried
this
would be terribly expensive solution. I questioned him about adding a third

zone and he said he'd get back to me after talking to the sub again. Does a

heat pump make sense? I don't understand why a third zone couldn't be added

fairly easily. Is this a cost issue? Wouldn't a larger BTU furnace do the
job? Our contract specified two zone heat, is this something I should have
to
pay extra for or would this be his cost.
Thanks in adavance for any advice you have.

This is Turtle.

One thing here and when there is any changes to the first aggreement -- You
are
going to pay for it. There is a old rule in the hvac business that says when
the
contractor starts paying for the system to be installed , He should not do
the
job.

Now using a Heat pump for the 3 rd zone : You may look at a another gas /
hvac
system / hot air type system just for the 3rd zone. Now Heap pump is still
not
out of the question for the cost of a heap pump and another gas or oil
heating
system are not much difference on cost. The Heat pump may be a little cheaper

for not having venting system and oil or gas lines run to it.

Now having a small area heated by a heat pump would not be a big cost item
for
operation but gas or oil fuel would be a hair cheaper.

Now when you have a 3rd zone far off from the other 2 zones does make a
problem
with tring to keep a even heat in all zones. I can't see it from here but
this
is what it seem to be here.

Don't listen to [ Ha Ha Budys here ] for he is our resident Troll and want
to
feel like he is somebody.

TURTLE

I'm the resident troll?

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:47:03 -0400, TN wrote:

I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder
spec'ed for two zone heat. He called my yesterday and said after he met
with his mechanicals subcontractor that two zones were probably not
enough since the room over the mudroom and the room over garage were (I
guess) to far away from the furnace to be efficiently heated. He was
suggesting we add a heat pump for those two rooms (with AC of course).
We live in Northeast and I am worried this would be terribly expensive
solution. I questioned him about adding a third zone and he said he'd
get back to me after talking to the sub again. Does a heat pump make
sense? I don't understand why a third zone couldn't be added fairly
easily. Is this a cost issue? Wouldn't a larger BTU furnace do the
job? Our contract specified two zone heat, is this something I should
have to pay extra for or would this be his cost.
Thanks in adavance for any advice you have.

In the Northeast, air exchange heap pumps are extremely expensive to
operate during heating season. The backup heat (electric?) will be doing
most of the job for heat. So you get and expensive air conditioner and
expensive heat.

Geothermal heat pumps might be energy efficient but total lifetime costs
seem to be up for debate. A lot of equipment to maintain and expensive
ground exchanger to install.

Will two zones work? There are well established design guides any heating
contractor should have used. Ask for the calculations.

If this is a forced air system, by far the most common problem in the
northeast is poor return design. Particularly upper floors overheating in
summer. Each room that might have a door closed needs a proper return.
Somehow the zoning must accommodate seasonal changeovers as well.

gerry


--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

"gerry" wrote in message
I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder
spec'ed for two zone heat.

Our contract specified two zone heat, is this something I should
have to pay extra for or would this be his cost.

Just thinking about this you have a few options and maybe a dilemma or two
to face. Who designed the building? Who specified the type of heat and
number of zones?

Let's say you determine the builder to be at fault and refuse to pay him any
additional. How good of a job do you think the rest of the house is going
to get if he just lost a couple of grand on the heating system? I doubt he
is going to take a big hit, smile, and give you the first class job you are
paying for. That money has to come from someplace and one way or another,
it probably will be you.

Sit down with the builder and the mechanical contractor. Get their ideas,
and more important, the actual reasoning behind the decision to change. If
the guy is good, he will give you sound advice based on his experience and
knowledge. You surely don't want a new house with deficiencies in the heat
or the economy of running the heat. If you don't feel comfortable with the
decision, talk to another mechanical contractor. Either way, it is much
easier and cheaper to fix any problems now rather than after next winter.
Ed

From: "Edwin Pawlowski"


"gerry" wrote in message
I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder
spec'ed for two zone heat.

Our contract specified two zone heat, is this something I should
have to pay extra for or would this be his cost.

Just thinking about this you have a few options and maybe a dilemma or two
to face. Who designed the building? Who specified the type of heat and
number of zones?

Let's say you determine the builder to be at fault and refuse to pay him any
additional. How good of a job do you think the rest of the house is going
to get if he just lost a couple of grand on the heating system? I doubt he
is going to take a big hit, smile, and give you the first class job you are
paying for. That money has to come from someplace and one way or another,
it probably will be you.

Sit down with the builder and the mechanical contractor. Get their ideas,
and more important, the actual reasoning behind the decision to change. If
the guy is good, he will give you sound advice based on his experience and
knowledge. You surely don't want a new house with deficiencies in the heat
or the economy of running the heat. If you don't feel comfortable with the
decision, talk to another mechanical contractor. Either way, it is much
easier and cheaper to fix any problems now rather than after next winter.
Ed


It sounds like these "extra" 2 rooms over the garage/mud room are what are
known as "bonus rooms" which sometimes, future finishing, or finishing from the
onset aren't taken into account when planning/sizing the original HVAC system.

Regardless of how efficient the original heat pump is, in the Northeast they're
just not the way to go for the long haul. They save the builder tons of money
because they get to sell the homeowner both a central a/c AND heat for little
more than the cost of central a/c only. The homeowner is then stuck paying for
this folley for all of eternity, while the builder and electric company (who
often subsidize the builder under the guise of installing an "energy efficient"
system) laugh all the way to the bank.

If you have a gas main in the street, go with gas heat, or at least get the gas
to the house for cooking / hot water / clothes drying. (Much less expensive
than electric) If not, go with an oil burner for heat.

Do not let the builder sucker you into installing 2 or 3 heat pumps. A heatpump
in the northeast is about as useful as a swamp cooler in Antartica.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"gerry" wrote in message

I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder
spec'ed for two zone heat.


Our contract specified two zone heat, is this something I should

have to pay extra for or would this be his cost.


Just thinking about this you have a few options and maybe a dilemma or two
to face. Who designed the building? Who specified the type of heat and
number of zones?

Let's say you determine the builder to be at fault and refuse to pay him any
additional. How good of a job do you think the rest of the house is going
to get if he just lost a couple of grand on the heating system? I doubt he
is going to take a big hit, smile, and give you the first class job you are
paying for. That money has to come from someplace and one way or another,
it probably will be you.

Sit down with the builder and the mechanical contractor. Get their ideas,
and more important, the actual reasoning behind the decision to change. If
the guy is good, he will give you sound advice based on his experience and
knowledge. You surely don't want a new house with deficiencies in the heat
or the economy of running the heat. If you don't feel comfortable with the
decision, talk to another mechanical contractor. Either way, it is much
easier and cheaper to fix any problems now rather than after next winter.
Ed


Edwin,
Can you explain the difference between two and three zone heat? Does
that mean a bigger furnace and an extra thermostat, or something more
costly and complex?
Thanks.

"TN" wrote in message
Edwin,
Can you explain the difference between two and three zone heat? Does that
mean a bigger furnace and an extra thermostat, or something more costly
and complex?
Thanks.

Thermostat is the cheapest part of the job. You have to have separate
distribution of the heat to each zone. That means different piping or
ducting.

As for the furnace size, it would be the same. When deciding how large a
heater, the building is gone over, room by room, to determine the needs.
You take into account the type of construction, the amount of insulation,
exposure, roof type, expected minimum or maximum temperatures in the
climate. Adding it all up gives the total size needed. You can go with one
large or two smaller units to get the same effect.

Not seeing the layout of the house it is not possible to give a definite
answer. If the rooms in question are distant, it may be difficult to get
the heat from the heater to the rooms. There are losses along the way. If
the rooms are such that they need more heating that other parts of the
house, it is not efficient to fire up a large heater to do just two rooms.
It may be more economical to have a smaller supplemental unit. Only way to
decide is to see the actual house plans and work from there.

We use heat pumps in the midwest where its plenty cold, mine is a 3 ton,16
seer and heats a 1600sq ft ranch main level and 700 down stairs, holds 69
degs, when the outside temp is 17degs.

Tom


"TN" wrote in message
...
I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder spec'ed
for two zone heat. He called my yesterday and said after he met with his
mechanicals subcontractor that two zones were probably not enough since the
room over the mudroom and the room over garage were (I guess) to far away
from the furnace to be efficiently heated. He was suggesting we add a heat
pump for those two rooms (with AC of course). We live in Northeast and I am
worried this would be terribly expensive solution. I questioned him about
adding a third zone and he said he'd get back to me after talking to the
sub again. Does a heat pump make sense? I don't understand why a third
zone couldn't be added fairly easily. Is this a cost issue? Wouldn't a
larger BTU furnace do the job? Our contract specified two zone heat, is
this something I should have to pay extra for or would this be his cost.
Thanks in adavance for any advice you have.

From: "twfsa"


We use heat pumps in the midwest where its plenty cold, mine is a 3 ton,16
seer and heats a 1600sq ft ranch main level and 700 down stairs, holds 69
degs, when the outside temp is 17degs.

Tom

What's your Kwh rate? In the NE it can be as high as .18 per Kwh. How often do
your backup elements come on, and how often does the unit go into defrost mode?

Heatpumps in the Northeast are only used because builders are cheap, want the
cheapest heating/cooling plant, and don't want the "hassle" of providing things
like fuel storage, chimneys, or natural gas. In addition, the inside air
handler can be located just about anywhere.

TN wrote:
I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder
spec'ed for two zone heat.
He called my yesterday and said after he met
with his mechanicals subcontractor that two zones were probably not
enough since the room over the mudroom and the room over garage were (I
guess) to far away from the furnace to be efficiently heated. He was
suggesting we add a heat pump for those two rooms (with AC of course).
We live in Northeast and I am worried this would be terribly expensive
solution. I questioned him about adding a third zone and he said he'd
get back to me after talking to the sub again. Does a heat pump make
sense? I don't understand why a third zone couldn't be added fairly
easily. Is this a cost issue? Wouldn't a larger BTU furnace do the
job? Our contract specified two zone heat, is this something I should
have to pay extra for or would this be his cost.
Thanks in adavance for any advice you have.

This can easily be done using one furnace with one air conditioner
(and if needed, a 2 to 3 zone zoning system).

I assume you are speaking of a natural gas fired furnace,
and using an electric air conditioner.

Technology today is more advancede and because of that,
easier to manage home comfort.

This is what I wold use in your situation.
A 96% AFUE gas furnace with a variable speed fan system.
An 18 SEER 2-speed electric air conditioner,
(yes, with TXV on evaporator)
A Thermostat that not only controls desired heating and cooling
comfort levels, but controls humidity levels in the home as well.
(dehumidifies via the A/C as well as operates an add-on humidifier)

If the furnace is to be located at one end of the basement, and you have
difficulty with airflow to a room over the garage at the other (far)
end, you may want to split those difficult areas into "zones"
If so, an effective way to do so is using Arzel Zoning Technology.

I would get another opinion from a contractor who is experienced in
zoning needs.

Someone who knows how to correctly calculate the required heating and
cooling loads in your home, understands how to size the ductwork
required to move the air which will carry those loads, and if need be
split the system into zones - all using one furnace and one airconditioner.

Just last month, I removed 2 furnaces, and 2 airconditioners from a
building (beauty solon) installed one furnace, one air conditioner, and
an Arzel AirBoss 3-zone panel. We used 3 programable thermostats using
the existing ductwork and improved the "irregular heating/cooling" in
the various parts of the structure, while saving the customer $$$ on
their monthly fuel consumption. The furnace was a 96% 120K-BTU 2-stage
heat, with a 5-ton single-speed air conditioner, a Thermidistat in the
"main zone" and 2 standard programable thermostats for the other two
zones. we also properly sized the required fresh air intake into the
system for the needs of the business (in acordance with local codes).

Here is the equipment I would reccomend, if I were speaking to you
"person to person."

Air Conditioner:
http://www.residential.carrier.com/r...ID3966,00.html

Furnace:
http://www.residential.carrier.com/r...ID3736,00.html

System:
http://www.residential.carrier.com/r...ID3655,00.html

Thermostat:
http://www.residential.carrier.com/r...ID3835,00.html

Read the brochu
http://www.xpedio.carrier.com/idc/gr...038-012904.pdf

Zoning:
http://www.arzelzoning.com/

Want help?
Call a Factory Authorized Dealer in your area:
http://www.residential.carrier.com/r...ID4032,00.html

good luck!

"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message
...
From: "TURTLE"


"TN" wrote in message
...
I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder spec'ed
for
two zone heat. He called my yesterday and said after he met with his
mechanicals subcontractor that two zones were probably not enough since the
room over the mudroom and the room over garage were (I guess) to far away
from
the furnace to be efficiently heated. He was suggesting we add a heat pump
for
those two rooms (with AC of course). We live in Northeast and I am worried
this
would be terribly expensive solution. I questioned him about adding a third

zone and he said he'd get back to me after talking to the sub again. Does a

heat pump make sense? I don't understand why a third zone couldn't be added

fairly easily. Is this a cost issue? Wouldn't a larger BTU furnace do the
job? Our contract specified two zone heat, is this something I should have
to
pay extra for or would this be his cost.
Thanks in adavance for any advice you have.

This is Turtle.

One thing here and when there is any changes to the first aggreement -- You
are
going to pay for it. There is a old rule in the hvac business that says when
the
contractor starts paying for the system to be installed , He should not do
the
job.

Now using a Heat pump for the 3 rd zone : You may look at a another gas /
hvac
system / hot air type system just for the 3rd zone. Now Heap pump is still
not
out of the question for the cost of a heap pump and another gas or oil
heating
system are not much difference on cost. The Heat pump may be a little cheaper

for not having venting system and oil or gas lines run to it.

Now having a small area heated by a heat pump would not be a big cost item
for
operation but gas or oil fuel would be a hair cheaper.

Now when you have a 3rd zone far off from the other 2 zones does make a
problem
with tring to keep a even heat in all zones. I can't see it from here but
this
is what it seem to be here.

Don't listen to [ Ha Ha Budys here ] for he is our resident Troll and want
to
feel like he is somebody.

TURTLE

I'm the resident troll?

This is Turtle.

Yea, for one statement on the heat pump. You stated that the heat pump would
cost more and cost more to install. I do this for a living and the heat pump
cost less than a gas fired furnance, evap. coil, and condenser. On the 6 brand I
sell the heat pump runs about $60.00 to $100.00 cheaper to buy wholesale than
the gas furnce/ coil / condenser. Also it take less time to install a heat pump
than a gas furnce coil system. You speak before you think or you don't know
about it.

Now the heat pump being more costly than a gas furnce heat is too verible to try
to say cost to operate it is high or lower to run because of fuel difference in
the different areas.

Now to being a troll or not. A troll speaks to get a adverse reaction from the
newsgroup. Some speak a lot of differences and other just a little to get a
reaction. Do you do this ?

TURTLE

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:12:45 -0400, TN wrote:



Edwin,
Can you explain the difference between two and three zone heat? Does
that mean a bigger furnace and an extra thermostat, or something more
costly and complex?
Thanks.

Not Edwin here

A zone is just a area of the house with independent controls (and
sometimes equipment) and can restrict supply of heating/cooling to that
area. An extreme case might be each room has its own zone, own thermostat,
own duct dampers if forced air or circulator/valves if hydronic heat. A
zone can even have a completely in dependant system.

Forced air systems are much more complex to zone than hydronic systems.
Hydronic furnaces tolerate variable loads very well, often even include
domestic hot water. This is because the furnace often has a thermostat to
control it's water temperature, zone controls merely turns on circulation.
Of course, this is a heat only setup/

Forced air systems have significant problems with heavy zoning. Both AC
units and forced air heat systems don't take kindly to variable loads
(different number of zones calling at a time) without more complex
variable output designs. Traditional forced air equipment just doesn't
handle variable air flow or loads well.

So zoning is just partitioning off areas with separate controls, maybe
separate equipment.

Back to heat pumps: Common air exchange heat pumps are a total disaster in
the northeast. Air exchange heat pumps don't work well (or at all) as one
nears freezing. The cheap way out (installation) is electric backup. $$$ I
know of some geothermal installations west of Albany NY, not clear if
their lifetime costs will prove effective.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:56:47 -0500, "TURTLE"
wrote:



This is Turtle.

Yea, for one statement on the heat pump. You stated that the heat pump would
cost more and cost more to install. I do this for a living and the heat pump
cost less than a gas fired furnance, evap. coil, and condenser. On the 6 brand I
sell the heat pump runs about $60.00 to $100.00 cheaper to buy wholesale than
the gas furnce/ coil / condenser. Also it take less time to install a heat pump
than a gas furnce coil system. You speak before you think or you don't know
about it.

Turtle,

Down in your area (LA) air exchange heat pumps make sense. The original
poster mentioned he is in the Northeast, as I do. Air exchange heat pumps
are just very expensive electric heaters up here ;-)

Geothermal works, jury seems to be out regarding lifetime costs of
ownership and operation. Installation costs of geothermal are very high
com paired to air exchange units.

Just think there you might have missed the location - Northeast.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:15:08 -0500, "twfsa" wrote:

We use heat pumps in the midwest where its plenty cold, mine is a 3 ton,16
seer and heats a 1600sq ft ranch main level and 700 down stairs, holds 69
degs, when the outside temp is 17degs.

At 17 F your "heat pump" is just an electric heater. Most likely you are
describing an air exchange system with electric backup heating strips. In
the Northeast, where the original poster is located, electric heat is
generally very expensive to operate.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 03:31:44 GMT, Gate wrote:

TN wrote:
I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder
spec'ed for two zone heat.
He called my yesterday and said after he met
clip

This can easily be done using one furnace with one air conditioner
(and if needed, a 2 to 3 zone zoning system).

I assume you are speaking of a natural gas fired furnace,
and using an electric air conditioner.

Technology today is more advancede and because of that,
easier to manage home comfort.

This is what I wold use in your situation.
A 96% AFUE gas furnace with a variable speed fan system.
An 18 SEER 2-speed electric air conditioner,
(yes, with TXV on evaporator)
A Thermostat that not only controls desired heating and cooling
comfort levels, but controls humidity levels in the home as well.
(dehumidifies via the A/C as well as operates an add-on humidifier)

It is fairly unlikely the A/C does a very good job at dehumidifying. High
SEER units tend to be poor at latent heat removal.



Here is the equipment I would reccomend, if I were speaking to you
"person to person."

Air Conditioner:
http://www.residential.carrier.com/r...ID3966,00.html

And I would research costs associated with captive designs (proprietary
repair parts) with Carrier and a few other big names.

I am not suggesting they are not good units, just lifetime cost of
ownership (repairs and service) tend to be higher with some brand name
equipment.

Thus, add the cost of a long term service contract when getting quotes.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry wrote:
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:56:47 -0500, "TURTLE"
wrote:



This is Turtle.

Yea, for one statement on the heat pump. You stated that the heat pump would
cost more and cost more to install. I do this for a living and the heat pump
cost less than a gas fired furnance, evap. coil, and condenser. On the 6 brand I
sell the heat pump runs about $60.00 to $100.00 cheaper to buy wholesale than
the gas furnce/ coil / condenser. Also it take less time to install a heat pump
than a gas furnce coil system. You speak before you think or you don't know
about it.


Turtle,

Down in your area (LA) air exchange heat pumps make sense. The original
poster mentioned he is in the Northeast, as I do. Air exchange heat pumps
are just very expensive electric heaters up here ;-)

Geothermal works, jury seems to be out regarding lifetime costs of
ownership and operation. Installation costs of geothermal are very high
com paired to air exchange units.

Just think there you might have missed the location - Northeast.

gerry

Gerry and Turtle,
Thanks for your input. I think my builders goal here is to use 2 zone
heat for the main house (2600 SQFT colonial) with a 2 zone forced air
oil system, and since (I guess) the run length is too long for the
office (room over mudroom) and family room (room over garage) which is
about 420 SQFT total to use a heat pump to serve that area. He is
supposed to call me today to discuss this further, I'd just need a heads
up on the pros/cons/options available.
Again thanks.

"gerry" wrote in message

Not Edwin here

A zone is just a area of the house with independent controls (and
sometimes equipment) and can restrict supply of heating/cooling to that
area.


Thanks, your explanation is better than mine.
Ed

From: "TURTLE"


"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message
...
From: "TURTLE"


"TN" wrote in message
...
I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder spec'ed
for
two zone heat. He called my yesterday and said after he met with his
mechanicals subcontractor that two zones were probably not enough since
the
room over the mudroom and the room over garage were (I guess) to far away
from
the furnace to be efficiently heated. He was suggesting we add a heat
pump
for
those two rooms (with AC of course). We live in Northeast and I am worried
this
would be terribly expensive solution. I questioned him about adding a
third

zone and he said he'd get back to me after talking to the sub again. Does
a

heat pump make sense? I don't understand why a third zone couldn't be
added

fairly easily. Is this a cost issue? Wouldn't a larger BTU furnace do
the
job? Our contract specified two zone heat, is this something I should
have
to
pay extra for or would this be his cost.
Thanks in adavance for any advice you have.

This is Turtle.

One thing here and when there is any changes to the first aggreement -- You
are
going to pay for it. There is a old rule in the hvac business that says
when
the
contractor starts paying for the system to be installed , He should not do
the
job.

Now using a Heat pump for the 3 rd zone : You may look at a another gas /
hvac
system / hot air type system just for the 3rd zone. Now Heap pump is still
not
out of the question for the cost of a heap pump and another gas or oil
heating
system are not much difference on cost. The Heat pump may be a little
cheaper

for not having venting system and oil or gas lines run to it.

Now having a small area heated by a heat pump would not be a big cost item
for
operation but gas or oil fuel would be a hair cheaper.

Now when you have a 3rd zone far off from the other 2 zones does make a
problem
with tring to keep a even heat in all zones. I can't see it from here but
this
is what it seem to be here.

Don't listen to [ Ha Ha Budys here ] for he is our resident Troll and want
to
feel like he is somebody.

TURTLE

I'm the resident troll?

This is Turtle.

Yea, for one statement on the heat pump. You stated that the heat pump would
cost more and cost more to install. I do this for a living and the heat pump
cost less than a gas fired furnance, evap. coil, and condenser. On the 6
brand I
sell the heat pump runs about $60.00 to $100.00 cheaper to buy wholesale than

the gas furnce/ coil / condenser.

Maybe where you're located, Turtle. But up here the contractors charge the
homeowners based on what the homeowner think's s/he's getting, not what the
products cost to purchase.

Also, central a/c is somewhat common though in most localities, hardly
necessary and therefore, not as expensive to install (especially in new
construction) as it would be down South or in the MidWest where they're as
necessary as our baseboard heating systems, if not more so.

Add a heat pump to this mix, however, and the contractors realize a substantial
savings. They talk homeowners into them because for little more than the basic
cost of a basic central a/c system, the contractor has also provided heat w/o
running a single pipe for baseboards. And not having to provide a triple wall,
double insulated stainless steel flue along with a roof penetration, to a
contractor, is just golden.

Also it take less time to install a heat
pump
than a gas furnce coil system.

None of which concerns the homeowner, because as a businessman, time saved is
money in the contractor's pocket.

The OP is finishing space that otherwise wasn't planned for in the heat/a/c
load calculations. Or maybe, so the contractor says. What the heck, if the
contractor can get the owner to spring for a totally unnecessary 3rd heatpump
package, complete, well that's just icing on the cake.

You speak before you think or you don't know
about it.

I do know about it. All about it. And I think I'm more in tune to how
contractors and homebuilders operate in the Northeast. Do you know how a
homeowner can tell his builder is lying? His lips are moving.

I'll bet the homeowner was also told he heeds a bigger electrical service for
that additional heatpump as well. Not to mention all that extra power and
lighting a bonus room/den will need.


Now the heat pump being more costly than a gas furnce heat is too verible to
try
to say cost to operate it is high or lower to run because of fuel difference
in
the different areas.

If you forget everything I've said, fine, but remember this:

In the Northeast, unless you have cheap hydropower (which effectively puts you
so far north as to make a heatpump virtually useless anyway) natural gas
provided by a regulated utility, or an oil burner fueled by oil companies who
are in direct competition with regulated gas utilities, is ALWAYS CHEAPER for
heating a home.


Now to being a troll or not. A troll speaks to get a adverse reaction from
the
newsgroup. Some speak a lot of differences and other just a little to get a
reaction. Do you do this ?

TURTLE

I don't care whether you react or not. The OP was more about the necessity of
another zone on a still undescribed system, although it was suggested to the OP
by the contractor that the additional space be on it's own heatpump system.

gerry wrote:

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 03:31:44 GMT, Gate wrote:


TN wrote:

I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder
spec'ed for two zone heat.
He called my yesterday and said after he met

clip


This can easily be done using one furnace with one air conditioner
(and if needed, a 2 to 3 zone zoning system).


snip



It is fairly unlikely the A/C does a very good job at dehumidifying. High
SEER units tend to be poor at latent heat removal.


I suppose you are not familiar with the equipment I've referenced.
The system actually has desired humidity level settings and will
maintain them, so say for example in the summer time, the sensible is
steady but latent has increased, the system will remove latent without
noticible change in sensible.

Another words...
The thermostat will operate the A/C strictly for dehumidification
without allowing the room temperature to decrease.

Here is the equipment I would reccomend, if I were speaking to you
"person to person."

Air Conditioner:
http://www.residential.carrier.com/r...ID3966,00.html


And I would research costs associated with captive designs (proprietary
repair parts) with Carrier and a few other big names.

I am not suggesting they are not good units, just lifetime cost of
ownership (repairs and service) tend to be higher with some brand name
equipment.

Thus, add the cost of a long term service contract when getting quotes.

gerry

possibly. but that holds true with *any* brand of equipment you would
purchase. I will be quite honest here in saying that years ago I was
against Carrier/Bryant equipment for over-usage of controls, etc; and
the same went for Lennox and Trane as well. I would install units that
were less complicated, etc; and yeah - they were cheap. Coleman, York,
Goodman (Janitrol), Comfort-Aire, Nordyne products (Miller, Kelvinator,
Westinghouse), Heil, I could name several more.

Times have changed, Carrier has changed, and for the most part to the
better. Carier listened to contractors when they redisgned their entire
product line. Better built, less callbacks (warranty calls) equipment
that actually reduces customers utility bills.

As for zoning needs...
You can't beat Arzel (http://www.arzelzoning.com/)
No electric motorized dampers, very intuitive control panels, no need to
redisgn and reInstall ductwork (existing ducts can be split into various
zones with no problems - as long as they are accessible).

A little FYI:
You use computer technology to access this newsgroup.
You may want to print a post for whatever reason, and your printer is
connected to the CPU via a USB connection.
Carriers Infinity Control/Furnace/Air Conditioner/Heat Pump are
connected basically the same way: via a universal serial buss where only
4 wires are needed even for 2-stage heating and 2-stage cooling. A 24vac
(+), common (-), and two data terminals. The system is self-diagnosing.
We have been putting them in since they came out, and have 0 service
calls on them so far.

peace,
-Gate

"gerry" wrote in message
...
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:56:47 -0500, "TURTLE"
wrote:



This is Turtle.

Yea, for one statement on the heat pump. You stated that the heat pump would
cost more and cost more to install. I do this for a living and the heat pump
cost less than a gas fired furnance, evap. coil, and condenser. On the 6 brand
I
sell the heat pump runs about $60.00 to $100.00 cheaper to buy wholesale than
the gas furnce/ coil / condenser. Also it take less time to install a heat
pump
than a gas furnce coil system. You speak before you think or you don't know
about it.

Turtle,

Down in your area (LA) air exchange heat pumps make sense. The original
poster mentioned he is in the Northeast, as I do. Air exchange heat pumps
are just very expensive electric heaters up here ;-)

Geothermal works, jury seems to be out regarding lifetime costs of
ownership and operation. Installation costs of geothermal are very high
com paired to air exchange units.

Just think there you might have missed the location - Northeast.

gerry


This is Turtle.

Is that North of Mississippi ?

I'm not versed in cold weather for here +40ºF is frost bite weather and Warm is
100ºF+ .

TURTLE

"TN" wrote in message
...
gerry wrote:
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:56:47 -0500, "TURTLE"
wrote:



This is Turtle.

Yea, for one statement on the heat pump. You stated that the heat pump would
cost more and cost more to install. I do this for a living and the heat pump
cost less than a gas fired furnance, evap. coil, and condenser. On the 6
brand I sell the heat pump runs about $60.00 to $100.00 cheaper to buy
wholesale than the gas furnce/ coil / condenser. Also it take less time to
install a heat pump than a gas furnce coil system. You speak before you think
or you don't know about it.


Turtle,

Down in your area (LA) air exchange heat pumps make sense. The original
poster mentioned he is in the Northeast, as I do. Air exchange heat pumps
are just very expensive electric heaters up here ;-)

Geothermal works, jury seems to be out regarding lifetime costs of
ownership and operation. Installation costs of geothermal are very high
com paired to air exchange units.

Just think there you might have missed the location - Northeast.

gerry

Gerry and Turtle,
Thanks for your input. I think my builders goal here is to use 2 zone heat
for the main house (2600 SQFT colonial) with a 2 zone forced air oil system,
and since (I guess) the run length is too long for the office (room over
mudroom) and family room (room over garage) which is about 420 SQFT total to
use a heat pump to serve that area. He is supposed to call me today to
discuss this further, I'd just need a heads up on the pros/cons/options
available.
Again thanks.

This is Turtle.

I was reading Gerry's replys and you do live were it does get cold and the Heat
Pump would not be a very good replacement for a Oil or Gas fire furnace. Go
first Oil / Gas then last Heat Pump. Heat Pumps are good but in heavy use / cold
ass weather oil or gas will out do them heat pumps in cost to operate and heat
faster.

TURTLE

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:43:53 GMT, Gate wrote:

gerry wrote:

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 03:31:44 GMT, Gate wrote:


TN wrote:

I am in the process of building a 3000 SQFT house that my builder
spec'ed for two zone heat.
He called my yesterday and said after he met

clip


This can easily be done using one furnace with one air conditioner
(and if needed, a 2 to 3 zone zoning system).


snip



It is fairly unlikely the A/C does a very good job at dehumidifying. High
SEER units tend to be poor at latent heat removal.


I suppose you are not familiar with the equipment I've referenced.
The system actually has desired humidity level settings and will
maintain them, so say for example in the summer time, the sensible is
steady but latent has increased, the system will remove latent without
noticible change in sensible.

You are correct that I'm not familiar with that particular system. Thanks
for the info (and that below)!

I'd love to know how they control latent heat without a noticeable change
in sensible AND operated at the specified SEER. That is an incredible
amount of stuff to juggle ;-)

gerry


Another words...
The thermostat will operate the A/C strictly for dehumidification
without allowing the room temperature to decrease.

Here is the equipment I would reccomend, if I were speaking to you
"person to person."

Air Conditioner:
http://www.residential.carrier.com/r...ID3966,00.html


And I would research costs associated with captive designs (proprietary
repair parts) with Carrier and a few other big names.

I am not suggesting they are not good units, just lifetime cost of
ownership (repairs and service) tend to be higher with some brand name
equipment.

Thus, add the cost of a long term service contract when getting quotes.

gerry

possibly. but that holds true with *any* brand of equipment you would
purchase. I will be quite honest here in saying that years ago I was
against Carrier/Bryant equipment for over-usage of controls, etc; and
the same went for Lennox and Trane as well. I would install units that
were less complicated, etc; and yeah - they were cheap. Coleman, York,
Goodman (Janitrol), Comfort-Aire, Nordyne products (Miller, Kelvinator,
Westinghouse), Heil, I could name several more.

Times have changed, Carrier has changed, and for the most part to the
better. Carier listened to contractors when they redisgned their entire
product line. Better built, less callbacks (warranty calls) equipment
that actually reduces customers utility bills.

As for zoning needs...
You can't beat Arzel (http://www.arzelzoning.com/)
No electric motorized dampers, very intuitive control panels, no need to
redisgn and reInstall ductwork (existing ducts can be split into various
zones with no problems - as long as they are accessible).

A little FYI:
You use computer technology to access this newsgroup.
You may want to print a post for whatever reason, and your printer is
connected to the CPU via a USB connection.
Carriers Infinity Control/Furnace/Air Conditioner/Heat Pump are
connected basically the same way: via a universal serial buss where only
4 wires are needed even for 2-stage heating and 2-stage cooling. A 24vac
(+), common (-), and two data terminals. The system is self-diagnosing.
We have been putting them in since they came out, and have 0 service
calls on them so far.

peace,
-Gate


--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

Since natrual gas at this time does not follow oil pricing changes as much,
would it not make more sense today to go natural gas than oil fired ?

MC

"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"TN" wrote in message
...
gerry wrote:
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:56:47 -0500, "TURTLE"
wrote:



This is Turtle.

Yea, for one statement on the heat pump. You stated that the heat pump
would
cost more and cost more to install. I do this for a living and the heat
pump
cost less than a gas fired furnance, evap. coil, and condenser. On the
6
brand I sell the heat pump runs about $60.00 to $100.00 cheaper to buy
wholesale than the gas furnce/ coil / condenser. Also it take less time
to
install a heat pump than a gas furnce coil system. You speak before you
think
or you don't know about it.


Turtle,

Down in your area (LA) air exchange heat pumps make sense. The original
poster mentioned he is in the Northeast, as I do. Air exchange heat
pumps
are just very expensive electric heaters up here ;-)

Geothermal works, jury seems to be out regarding lifetime costs of
ownership and operation. Installation costs of geothermal are very high
com paired to air exchange units.

Just think there you might have missed the location - Northeast.

gerry

Gerry and Turtle,
Thanks for your input. I think my builders goal here is to use 2 zone
heat
for the main house (2600 SQFT colonial) with a 2 zone forced air oil
system,
and since (I guess) the run length is too long for the office (room over
mudroom) and family room (room over garage) which is about 420 SQFT
total to
use a heat pump to serve that area. He is supposed to call me today to
discuss this further, I'd just need a heads up on the pros/cons/options
available.
Again thanks.

This is Turtle.

I was reading Gerry's replys and you do live were it does get cold and the
Heat
Pump would not be a very good replacement for a Oil or Gas fire furnace.
Go
first Oil / Gas then last Heat Pump. Heat Pumps are good but in heavy use
/ cold
ass weather oil or gas will out do them heat pumps in cost to operate and
heat
faster.

TURTLE

"MC" wrote in message
. ..
Since natrual gas at this time does not follow oil pricing changes as much,
would it not make more sense today to go natural gas than oil fired ?

MC

This is Turtle.

This is a local issue and the only [ More Senciable fuel choice ] good choice
would be look at the local cost per BTU of oil -- natural gas --- Propane ---
Electricity and see which is best in your area.

Here in Louisiana Natural gas is the best choice for we here produce about 20%
of the natural gas the United States uses. Natural gas is Cheapest cost and
Electricity is the highest cost. Other states will be a different story all
together.

TURTLE

gerry wrote:
clip

You are correct that I'm not familiar with that particular system. Thanks
for the info (and that below)!

I'd love to know how they control latent heat without a noticeable change
in sensible AND operated at the specified SEER. That is an incredible
amount of stuff to juggle ;-)

gerry

snip

S.E.E.R -
"The total cooling output of a central air conditioner in British
thermal units during its normal usage period for cooling divided by the
total electrical energy input in watt-hours during the same period. The
test procedure is determined by the Air-Conditioning and Refrigeration
Institute."

Latent Heat -
Is defined as the heat which flows to or from a material without a
change to temperature.

Sensible Heat -
Is defined as the heat energy stored in a substance as a result of an
increase in its temperature.

Heat -
Is a form of energy that is transferred from one body (system ) to
another body (system or surroundings). Heat transfer can occur when
there is a temperature difference. Assume two bodies with different
temperatures are brought into contact with each other. The heat
transfers from the hotter body to the colder one. This will continue
until the temperature of the bodies are the same (thermal equilibrium).
The SI unit of heat is joule (J).

If you need to know more of the "basics" try he
http://www.taftan.com/thermodynamics/

Ummm... what does the Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio (SEER) of
equipment have to do with dehumidification?

The difference between air conditioning and dehumidification is:
Air conditioning changes sensible by transferring heat and lowering the
temperature of the air in the conditioned space where dehumidification
removes latent heat without a noticable change in sensible.

Example.
You have a basement.
In your basement you have a dehumidifier operating to remove excessive
moisture [hence dehumidify).
Does that dehumidifier make your basement and colder?

In my remarks I stated that the system I referred to enabled your home
air conditioner to act as a "whole house dehumidifier." So it removes
latent (moisture) without changing sensible - which is exactly what a
dehumidifier does...

Looky he
http://www.residential.carrier.com/r...ID3703,00.html

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:24:49 -0400, "MC" wrote:

Since natrual gas at this time does not follow oil pricing changes as much,
would it not make more sense today to go natural gas than oil fired ?

MC

Natural gas very much LEADS oil prices in markets such as Boston! The
problem is delivery. The pipeline can't handle it and, particularly since
9/11, LNG delivery via tanker has limited capacity.

In Eastern MA, they even supplement NG with air-propane mix in the NG
mains at peak winter demand. That drives up propane and "pseudo NG"
prices.

gerry


I was reading Gerry's replys and you do live were it does get cold and the
Heat
Pump would not be a very good replacement for a Oil or Gas fire furnace.
Go
first Oil / Gas then last Heat Pump. Heat Pumps are good but in heavy use
/ cold
ass weather oil or gas will out do them heat pumps in cost to operate and
heat
faster.

TURTLE





--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots