On 6/7/2021 5:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 7:28:38 AM UTC-5, dan wrote:

Some cut.

Thanks for the advice on the switch replacement.
I have to find out if a different Home Depot has them in stock.

Try Ace Hardware or another place like it.

More cut.


The obvious first thing to do is adjust the switch to a lower pressure.
Instructions are in the switch cover usually. I believe you loosen the
nut on the bigger spring.

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 07:01:52 -0700, Bob F wrote:
The obvious first thing to do is adjust the switch to a lower pressure.
Instructions are in the switch cover usually. I believe you loosen the
nut on the bigger spring.

I agree. Completely. And therefore I will do that next!
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=400

BTW, this morning I increased the native pressure of the bladder to 28psi
(when the water level was a dribble so I assume that's as low as it gets)
as it had started at about 22 psi a couple of days ago & needed air.

After pressurizing the bladder to 28psi I let the pressure pump run to see
if it would cut off, and the pressure (at the top of the blue tank) went up
very quickly (within a minute) to 35psi and then within another minute to 50
psi but even after ten minutes of the pump running it never exceeded 52psi
(and the pump never turned off).

So that's one mystery of why the pump doesn't get higher than 52psi as
measured at the top of the blue bladder tank. The other (perhaps related?)
mystery is why the pressure at the gauge on the pump is literally zero (no
air, no water).

I removed the gauge and let the pump run and NOTHING came out. Huh?

Given the pump /can't/ get higher than 52psi, then lowering the pressure
switch shutoff may prove that everything /else/ is working (but the pump).

Therefore I agree the next thing I should try is lower the shutoff pressure.

I don't have instructions on the cover but they are here & you are right.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=65

That video says if the 20# range is set to 30:50, then loosening the big nut
on that large center bolt will _lower_ the 20# range (say to 20:40).

Each full center nut rotation is 2 to 3 psi change of the 20# range.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=85

Loosening the smaller nut lowers the high-end cutoff only (about 2psi/turn).
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=98

What's a good range and high end? I don't know.
The video says to play with the 20# range if you need to lower pressure.
It says to play with the high end cutoff only if you specifically need it.

I will probably drop it lower than I really need to just to debug.
Then bring it up later as close to the 30:50 as I can get it.

When I change the cutout pressure point I have to measure the results.
Is the pressure at the top of the blue bladder tank an accurate pressure?

On 6/7/2021 9:30 AM, dan wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 07:01:52 -0700, Bob F wrote:
The obvious first thing to do is adjust the switch to a lower pressure.
Instructions are in the switch cover usually. I believe you loosen the
nut on the bigger spring.

I agree. Completely. And therefore I will do that next!
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=400

BTW, this morning I increased the native pressure of the bladder to 28psi
(when the water level was a dribble so I assume that's as low as it gets)
as it had started at about 22 psi a couple of days ago & needed air.

After pressurizing the bladder to 28psi I let the pressure pump run to see
if it would cut off, and the pressure (at the top of the blue tank) went up
very quickly (within a minute) to 35psi and then within another minute to 50
psi but even after ten minutes of the pump running it never exceeded 52psi
(and the pump never turned off).

So that's one mystery of why the pump doesn't get higher than 52psi as
measured at the top of the blue bladder tank. The other (perhaps related?)
mystery is why the pressure at the gauge on the pump is literally zero (no
air, no water).

I removed the gauge and let the pump run and NOTHING came out. Huh?

Given the pump /can't/ get higher than 52psi, then lowering the pressure
switch shutoff may prove that everything /else/ is working (but the pump).

Therefore I agree the next thing I should try is lower the shutoff pressure.

I don't have instructions on the cover but they are here & you are right.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=65

That video says if the 20# range is set to 30:50, then loosening the big nut
on that large center bolt will _lower_ the 20# range (say to 20:40).

Each full center nut rotation is 2 to 3 psi change of the 20# range.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=85

Loosening the smaller nut lowers the high-end cutoff only (about 2psi/turn).
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=98

So the smaller spring adjustment lessens the top of the range, the
difference above the turn on setting determined by the bigger spring.

What's a good range and high end? I don't know.
The video says to play with the 20# range if you need to lower pressure.
It says to play with the high end cutoff only if you specifically need it.

The manufacturer usually says to use a 20# range. If you adjust the
larger spring, you will keep the 20# range, but your lowest pressure of
the cycle will be a little lower. If you adjust the smaller range
spring, the lowest pressure will remain the same, but the pump will
cycle a little more often.


I will probably drop it lower than I really need to just to debug.
Then bring it up later as close to the 30:50 as I can get it.

It can (carefully, with a socket wrench) be adjusted while the pump is
running at it's maximum pressure and the pump should stop when the
setting is down to the pressure the pump is providing. Then turn it
another turn to get 2-3 PSI below the pumps limit.

When I change the cutout pressure point I have to measure the results.
Is the pressure at the top of the blue bladder tank an accurate pressure?


It is as accurate as your gauge, but lets a little air out each time you
do it which will need to be replaced at some point.

I will add to the idea of having water pressure in the system when you
probe to clean out the gauge passage. Have some pressure in the tank,
but the pump turned off so the crud will not get pushed around by the
impeller, but instead will go with the water pushing it out the gauge
hole. Have enough pressure to make sure a bunch of water is there to get
it all out as you probe.

On 6/7/2021 10:34 AM, Bob F wrote:
On 6/7/2021 9:30 AM, dan wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 07:01:52 -0700, Bob F wrote:
The obvious first thing to do is adjust the switch to a lower pressure.
Instructions are in the switch cover usually. I believe you loosen the
nut on the bigger spring.

I agree. Completely. And therefore I will do that next!
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=400

BTW, this morning I increased the native pressure of the bladder to 28psi
(when the water level was a dribble so I assume that's as low as it gets)
as it had started at about 22 psi a couple of days ago & needed air.

After pressurizing the bladder to 28psi I let the pressure pump run to
see
if it would cut off, and the pressure (at the top of the blue tank)
went up
very quickly (within a minute) to 35psi and then within another minute
to 50
psi but even after ten minutes of the pump running it never exceeded
52psi
(and the pump never turned off).

So that's one mystery of why the pump doesn't get higher than 52psi as
measured at the top of the blue bladder tank. The other (perhaps
related?)
mystery is why the pressure at the gauge on the pump is literally zero
(no
air, no water).

I removed the gauge and let the pump run and NOTHING came out. Huh?

Given the pump /can't/ get higher than 52psi, then lowering the pressure
switch shutoff may prove that everything /else/ is working (but the
pump).

Therefore I agree the next thing I should try is lower the shutoff
pressure.

I don't have instructions on the cover but they are here & you are right.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=65

That video says if the 20# range is set to 30:50, then loosening the
big nut
on that large center bolt will _lower_ the 20# range (say to 20:40).

Each full center nut rotation is 2 to 3 psi change of the 20# range.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=85

Loosening the smaller nut lowers the high-end cutoff only (about
2psi/turn).
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=98

So the smaller spring adjustment lessens the top of the range, the
difference above the turn on setting determined by the bigger spring.

What's a good range and high end? I don't know.
The video says to play with the 20# range if you need to lower pressure.
It says to play with the high end cutoff only if you specifically need
it.

The manufacturer usually says to use a 20# range. If you adjust the
larger spring, you will keep the 20# range, but your lowest pressure of
the cycle will be a little lower. If you adjust the smaller range
spring, the lowest pressure will remain the same, but the pump will
cycle a little more often.


I will probably drop it lower than I really need to just to debug.
Then bring it up later as close to the 30:50 as I can get it.

It can (carefully, with a socket wrench) be adjusted while the pump is
running at it's maximum pressure and the pump should stop when the
setting is down to the pressure the pump is providing. Then turn it
another turn to get 2-3 PSI below the pumps limit.

If you set it too close to the limit the pump can provide, You will
likely end up with the failure again sooner than later. That's why I
suggest the extra turn.

Your readings are always questionable with tire gauges or any other
gauge. I have several tire gauges, and they vary by several PSI when
checking the same tire. It would really be worth fixing the gauge on the
pump so you can glance at it once in a while as the pump turns off and
see that the shutoff PSI is not inching upwards.



When I change the cutout pressure point I have to measure the results.
Is the pressure at the top of the blue bladder tank an accurate pressure?


It is as accurate as your gauge, but lets a little air out each time you
do it which will need to be replaced at some point.

I will add to the idea of having water pressure in the system when you
probe to clean out the gauge passage. Have some pressure in the tank,
but the pump turned off so the crud will not get pushed around by the
impeller, but instead will go with the water pushing it out the gauge
hole. Have enough pressure to make sure a bunch of water is there to get
it all out as you probe.

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 10:47:53 -0700, Bob F wrote:
If you set it too close to the limit the pump can provide, You will
likely end up with the failure again sooner than later. That's why I
suggest the extra turn.

Everything you say I can't ever disagree with.
Luckily it's nowhere near 52psi anymore.

It's 37 the one time I heard it go on today and then shut off 1-1/2 minutes
later. That's far enough away from 52 & yet still in the good range for me.

Your readings are always questionable with tire gauges or any other
gauge. I have several tire gauges, and they vary by several PSI when
checking the same tire.

Yeah. I know. I know. This is a brass dial gauge. I don't want to even test
it with a second gauge for the reason that then I'd always be wondering.

It would really be worth fixing the gauge on the
pump so you can glance at it once in a while as the pump turns off and
see that the shutoff PSI is not inching upwards.

Agree in concept. Fully agree in concept.

In practice the gauge has no leeway in the direction it's pointing as it has
to go in tightly enough and then not too tight - and that position is facing
the wrong way for convenience. Also it's less than a foot off the floor.

It's not easy to see under those conditions.

Plus to clean out the pump at this point probably necessitates taking the
pump apart and the damage I could cause doing that is worse than the lack of
a gauge (the pump side is built with solid steel like a Sherman tank).

At this point, thanks to following your advice, I've lowered the shutoff
point low enough to prove the switch is working (in practice) even though I
don't yet know the turnon pressure yet nor the range.

I marked the bolts (they don't turn) and twisted each nut five full turns
CCW which loosened the pressure on the springs which are pushing the
pressure plate down which the pressure from the pump tries to push up.

Assuming 2psi per turn I lowered the start point by 10 psi (big bolt) and I
lowered whatever range it had (nominally 20psi) by dropping the cutoff point
by 10 psi.

I just realized the math sort of works out.

Assume the original range was 20psi and assume it was set at 40 to 60.
By dropping the range 10psi it would be set at 30 to 50.
By dropping the cutoff point by 10 psi it would be set at 30 to 40.

My one test of 37psi fits within that estimate.
I'll need time and events to figure this out any better.
I don't run the water much except when taking a long shower.
The wife & kids use water more than I do so it depends on their activity.

Overall, thank you and the others for your helpful advice.
Just the fact it's back to automatic is a weight off my shoulders.

That gives me time to decide what I need to do and to purchase.

On 6/7/2021 12:58 PM, dan wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 10:47:53 -0700, Bob F wrote:
If you set it too close to the limit the pump can provide, You will
likely end up with the failure again sooner than later. That's why I
suggest the extra turn.

Everything you say I can't ever disagree with.
Luckily it's nowhere near 52psi anymore.

It's 37 the one time I heard it go on today and then shut off 1-1/2 minutes
later. That's far enough away from 52 & yet still in the good range for me.

Your readings are always questionable with tire gauges or any other
gauge. I have several tire gauges, and they vary by several PSI when
checking the same tire.

Yeah. I know. I know. This is a brass dial gauge. I don't want to even test
it with a second gauge for the reason that then I'd always be wondering.

It would really be worth fixing the gauge on the
pump so you can glance at it once in a while as the pump turns off and
see that the shutoff PSI is not inching upwards.

Agree in concept. Fully agree in concept.

In practice the gauge has no leeway in the direction it's pointing as it has
to go in tightly enough and then not too tight - and that position is facing
the wrong way for convenience. Also it's less than a foot off the floor.

It's not easy to see under those conditions.

Plus to clean out the pump at this point probably necessitates taking the
pump apart and the damage I could cause doing that is worse than the lack of
a gauge (the pump side is built with solid steel like a Sherman tank).

At this point, thanks to following your advice, I've lowered the shutoff
point low enough to prove the switch is working (in practice) even though I
don't yet know the turnon pressure yet nor the range.

I marked the bolts (they don't turn) and twisted each nut five full turns
CCW which loosened the pressure on the springs which are pushing the
pressure plate down which the pressure from the pump tries to push up.

Assuming 2psi per turn I lowered the start point by 10 psi (big bolt) and I
lowered whatever range it had (nominally 20psi) by dropping the cutoff point
by 10 psi.

I just realized the math sort of works out.

Assume the original range was 20psi and assume it was set at 40 to 60.
By dropping the range 10psi it would be set at 30 to 50.
By dropping the cutoff point by 10 psi it would be set at 30 to 40.

My one test of 37psi fits within that estimate.
I'll need time and events to figure this out any better.
I don't run the water much except when taking a long shower.
The wife & kids use water more than I do so it depends on their activity.

Overall, thank you and the others for your helpful advice.
Just the fact it's back to automatic is a weight off my shoulders.

That gives me time to decide what I need to do and to purchase.


I was glad to help.

On 6/7/2021 1:42 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 6/7/2021 12:58 PM, dan wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 10:47:53 -0700, Bob F wrote:
If you set it too close to the limit the pump can provide, You will
likely end up with the failure again sooner than later. That's why I
suggest the extra turn.

Everything you say I can't ever disagree with.
Luckily it's nowhere near 52psi anymore.

It's 37 the one time I heard it go on today and then shut off 1-1/2
minutes
later. That's far enough away from 52 & yet still in the good range
for me.
Your readings are always questionable with tire gauges or any other
gauge. I have several tire gauges, and they vary by several PSI when
checking the same tire.

Yeah. I know. I know. This is a brass dial gauge. I don't want to even
test
it with a second gauge for the reason that then I'd always be wondering.

It would really be worth fixing the gauge on the
pump so you can glance at it once in a while as the pump turns off and
see that the shutoff PSI is not inching upwards.

Agree in concept. Fully agree in concept.

In practice the gauge has no leeway in the direction it's pointing as
it has
to go in tightly enough and then not too tight - and that position is
facing
the wrong way for convenience. Also it's less than a foot off the floor.

It's not easy to see under those conditions.

Plus to clean out the pump at this point probably necessitates taking the
pump apart and the damage I could cause doing that is worse than the
lack of
a gauge (the pump side is built with solid steel like a Sherman tank).

At this point, thanks to following your advice, I've lowered the shutoff
point low enough to prove the switch is working (in practice) even
though I
don't yet know the turnon pressure yet nor the range.

I marked the bolts (they don't turn) and twisted each nut five full turns
CCW which loosened the pressure on the springs which are pushing the
pressure plate down which the pressure from the pump tries to push up.

Assuming 2psi per turn I lowered the start point by 10 psi (big bolt)
and I
lowered whatever range it had (nominally 20psi) by dropping the cutoff
point
by 10 psi.

I just realized the math sort of works out.

Assume the original range was 20psi and assume it was set at 40 to 60.
By dropping the range 10psi it would be set at 30 to 50.
By dropping the cutoff point by 10 psi it would be set at 30 to 40.

My one test of 37psi fits within that estimate.
I'll need time and events to figure this out any better.
I don't run the water much except when taking a long shower.
The wife & kids use water more than I do so it depends on their activity.

Overall, thank you and the others for your helpful advice.
Just the fact it's back to automatic is a weight off my shoulders.

That gives me time to decide what I need to do and to purchase.


I was glad to help.


One other gauge possibility. You can add a gauge anywhere on the water
pipes that an available fitting is installed that the gauge can be
adapted to for testing purposes, or you can get gauges with female hose
fitting that you can just screw onto a hose faucet. The reading my be
low if water is being used on the same line. You could even use a
reducer fitting where the plastic plug was on the pump, although that
may have readings that bounce around a lot when the pump is running.

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 10:34:39 -0700, Bob F wrote:
So the smaller spring adjustment lessens the top of the range, the
difference above the turn on setting determined by the bigger spring.

That's a good way of putting it.

The video said the spring on the bigger screw is more forgiving as if we're
supposed to be changing these things a lot? I'm surprised they said that.


What's a good range and high end? I don't know.
The video says to play with the 20# range if you need to lower pressure.
It says to play with the high end cutoff only if you specifically need it.

The manufacturer usually says to use a 20# range. If you adjust the
larger spring, you will keep the 20# range, but your lowest pressure of
the cycle will be a little lower. If you adjust the smaller range
spring, the lowest pressure will remain the same, but the pump will
cycle a little more often.

After both adjustments, the water pressure pump has been cycling on its own!

I only caught it starting once (which I timed at 1-1/2 minutes to shutoff).
I tested the pressure at the top of the bladder at the end at 37psi.

It's kind of low but not so low as to make me worry.
I'm surprised though that it's that much lower than 52psi given only 5 turns
each of the two adjustment screws (the start of the range & its top end).

However it has only been doing this since my last post and I'm busy with
other things so I haven't figured out the new on/off/rest interval yet.

But the GOOD NEWS is it's "automatic" again!
Your advice to LOWER the cutoff pressure at the switch did the trick!


I will probably drop it lower than I really need to just to debug.
Then bring it up later as close to the 30:50 as I can get it.

It can (carefully, with a socket wrench) be adjusted while the pump is
running at it's maximum pressure and the pump should stop when the
setting is down to the pressure the pump is providing. Then turn it
another turn to get 2-3 PSI below the pumps limit.

Oh. That's a great trick!
That trick of adjusting it while the pump is running wasn't in the video.
(And yes, I'm aware the pump is likely 220 volts and the switch is hot.)

BTW, you can't use a socket on my center bolt because the nut was down too
low but it's just a 3/8ths inch nut so an open end wrench works just fine.

As I see it, the two bolts are above a plate where the pressure from below
pushes the plate up and the bolts simply hold the spring which pushes down.

Therefore, for debugging, since the pump never shut off, I could have
loosened the center range bolt until the pump shut off and then loosened the
side topend bolt a few turns to get it to shut off a few psi below that.

That's a great debugging idea to find out exactly where the pump shuts off.


When I change the cutout pressure point I have to measure the results.
Is the pressure at the top of the blue bladder tank an accurate pressure?


It is as accurate as your gauge, but lets a little air out each time you
do it which will need to be replaced at some point.

The air in the bladder is easily enough replaced.

It's only slightly inconvenient that I have to let the water pressure go to
as close to zero in the house as possible. I don't know the "correct" way to
fill the bladder since it will always have some water pressure from the
tanks feeding it. But I don't know how much that might be.

I think you solved all the mysteries (except perhaps what changed to cause
the problem in the first place but I'm not so worried about that really).

I will add to the idea of having water pressure in the system when you
probe to clean out the gauge passage. Have some pressure in the tank,
but the pump turned off so the crud will not get pushed around by the
impeller, but instead will go with the water pushing it out the gauge
hole. Have enough pressure to make sure a bunch of water is there to get
it all out as you probe.

For now, if the gauge on the bladder is good enough, I'm fine but I do agree
that having a gauge at the pump is far better as I can watch it drop and
then I can see when the pump kicks on and off (although it's not in a
convenient spot for watching it).

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 14:30:33 -0200, dan wrote:

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 07:01:52 -0700, Bob F wrote:
The obvious first thing to do is adjust the switch to a lower pressure.
Instructions are in the switch cover usually. I believe you loosen the
nut on the bigger spring.

I agree. Completely. And therefore I will do that next!
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=400

BTW, this morning I increased the native pressure of the bladder to 28psi
(when the water level was a dribble so I assume that's as low as it gets)
as it had started at about 22 psi a couple of days ago & needed air.

After pressurizing the bladder to 28psi I let the pressure pump run to see
if it would cut off, and the pressure (at the top of the blue tank) went up
very quickly (within a minute) to 35psi and then within another minute to 50
psi but even after ten minutes of the pump running it never exceeded 52psi
(and the pump never turned off).

So that's one mystery of why the pump doesn't get higher than 52psi as
measured at the top of the blue bladder tank. The other (perhaps related?)
mystery is why the pressure at the gauge on the pump is literally zero (no
air, no water).

I removed the gauge and let the pump run and NOTHING came out. Huh?

Given the pump /can't/ get higher than 52psi, then lowering the pressure
switch shutoff may prove that everything /else/ is working (but the pump).

Therefore I agree the next thing I should try is lower the shutoff pressure.

I don't have instructions on the cover but they are here & you are right.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=65

That video says if the 20# range is set to 30:50, then loosening the big nut
on that large center bolt will _lower_ the 20# range (say to 20:40).

Each full center nut rotation is 2 to 3 psi change of the 20# range.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=85

Loosening the smaller nut lowers the high-end cutoff only (about 2psi/turn).
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=98

What's a good range and high end? I don't know.
The video says to play with the 20# range if you need to lower pressure.
It says to play with the high end cutoff only if you specifically need it.

I will probably drop it lower than I really need to just to debug.
Then bring it up later as close to the 30:50 as I can get it.

When I change the cutout pressure point I have to measure the results.
Is the pressure at the top of the blue bladder tank an accurate pressure?
There are 2 settings. A cut in pressure and a cut out pressure. The
difference is Hysteresis. Having the hysteresis too low means the
pumnp continuously cycles. Lower the cut out pressure to below 52 PSI
- lets say 30. Then set the cut in pressure to about 10 for testing
purposes. When the tank drops below 10 the pump will turn on. Whenit
reaches 30 it will shut off. Having air in the bladder maintains the
30PSI while the water volume in the tank drops. Without air pressure
the water pressure drops immediately when a tap is opened - starting
the pump.
Now - you need the gauge to read. Generally the guage is on a
"damping" orifice to keep the needle from jumping all over the place.
If you are not getting air or water to the gauge the orifice is
plugged. Findit and poke a wire through it so the water or air can get
through to the gauge - and replace the gauge.

If it starts when the pressure frops to 10 and runs untill it hits 30
- and you can see pressure on the gauge, everything is working -
adjust the cut out to the specified upper pressure and see if the
pumnp cam kick that much pressure. If it can't pump up to the required
pressure the pump is worn out and you will need to replace it.

The air pressure at the top of the bell should be equal to the tank
water pressure when the tank is full - if there is enough air in the
bell / bladder.