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#1
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On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 06:15:27 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman wrote:
Do you know what the pressure readings are when it kicks on and when it kicks off? Good question. All I know is that I tested the bladder pressure with a bicycle PSI meter when I recently replaced a "plug" that blew out in the back of the water pump. That 1-inch diameter pipe plug was white plastic and it apparently worked its way out over time (probably since the pump was put there decades ago). Earlier this week I lost thousands of gallons of water out that open one-inch threaded hole in the back of the pressure pump before I knew what was happening. I picked up a one inch galvanized plug from Home Depot but it wasn't tapered so it wouldn't fit. I went to a plumbing specialty supply store which had brass, galvanized, and what they called "black metal" tapered one inch plugs. I bought the brass (it just seemed better) but it screwed down almost the entire way into the plug hole so it weeps a little bit of water. I had only put maybe two or three wraps of Teflon tape so maybe I need to wrap it more. Since I had the whole thing down for a day there was no pressure whatsoever at the house so I measured the bladder pressure at 20 PSI (which I thought was low but it's the lowest it will ever be because the water was out for a day while I was running around to stores). I don't know if it's the pressure switch so I'm looking up how to test that. I will try to get some readings today as this problem only started after I had replaced that one plug. I don't think the white plastic 1-inch plug "blew out" by the way, but only based on observation that the threads weren't stripped. It would screw back in if I had wanted to re-use it, but it was also melted at one point and was pin holed by that melt so I didn't want to risk re-using it. You called it a booster pump. That implies that there is another pump ahead of it. Is that right? I don't know what to call it but it's the only pressure pump. The water comes from the well to the tanks by one pump. And then the tanks feed what I'm calling the booster pump. I guess I should call it a pressure pump instead. The pressure pump has an on/off pressure switch on it. That pressure switch turns the pressure pump on and off. From there it goes into a human sized pressure tank with a bladder. The air valve on top read 22psi when the pipes were open so it can't get lower than that. The 22psi is the pressure inside the air bladder. I think it's supposed to be maybe 10 pounds higher so I can pump it up once I check that out. I wonder if that alone caused the problem but I haven't touched that part of the system and it wasn't happening (that I know of) before I replaced the plugs. But I can't see how replacing the plugs caused the problem either. I haven't measured the water pressure at the house but it spurts out good. Is it pumping air? My first off the wall guess would be a pressure switch malfunction. I don't know if it's pumping air but I don't think there is air in this system other than, perhaps, maybe the weeping brass plug is causing air to be sucked in. Thanks for your questions. Today I'm going to run a pressure test. |
#2
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dan writes:
I bought the brass (it just seemed better) but it screwed down almost the entire way into the plug hole so it weeps a little bit of water. I had only put maybe two or three wraps of Teflon tape so maybe I need to wrap it more. I'd make sure that's fixed right before worrying about the pump turning on. -- Dan Espen |
#3
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![]() On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 12:35:49 -0200, dan posted for all of us to digest... I picked up a one inch galvanized plug from Home Depot but it wasn't tapered so it wouldn't fit. I went to a plumbing specialty supply store which had brass, galvanized, and what they called "black metal" tapered one inch plugs. Make certain you have the correct plug. It might be a straight tread instead of a pipe thread. I bought the brass (it just seemed better) but it screwed down almost the entire way into the plug hole so it weeps a little bit of water. I had only put maybe two or three wraps of Teflon tape so maybe I need to wrap it more. Use more and get some Megaloc. That will do it. Testing the pressure switch is easy. What is the rating 30-50 or 40-60 or something else. When the pressure drops low it turns the pump on when it reaches the cutoff it shuts off. If you want take the cover off and measure voltage and current at the load side. Make sure the switch and nipple don't have any leaks. If you take the switch off make sure the nipple is clear, then just replace the switch. Tape & Megaloc. Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to recover? I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix or diagram on a hosting site? I am not a plumber but I have my own well so I have some familiarity with this. Stay crusty... -- Tekkie |
#4
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On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to recover? That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump. I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats. Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact. I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug. Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection. I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind. I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick. This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly. Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench. No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping. I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running. That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from. There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off. There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever. Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"? Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too? BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure. Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure. But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running. I lost some air constantly testing the bladder. Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water? I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix or diagram on a hosting site? I'll take some pictures for you. What site is a good one that most people use? |
#5
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On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 4:56:03 PM UTC-5, dan wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, TekkieÅ* wrote: Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to recover? That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump. I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats. Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact. I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug.. Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection. I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind. I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick. This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly. Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench. No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping. I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running. That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from. There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off. There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever. Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"? Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too? BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure. Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure.. But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running. I lost some air constantly testing the bladder. Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water? I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix or diagram on a hosting site? I'll take some pictures for you. What site is a good one that most people use? This one works. https://help.imgur.com/hc/en-us/articles/213539966-Creating-Posts-and-Sharing-to-Imgur That hissing sound might be a clue. Can you hook an air compressor into your system somewhere to pressurize the system? Don't let it pressurize above 50 pounds or so to avoid blowing things apart. It would be nice if you could plug the air into the system somewhere besides the plug you're working with. |
#6
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On 6/5/2021 2:56 PM, dan wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote: Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to recover? That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump. I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats. Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact. I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug. Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection. I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind. I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick. This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly. Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench. No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping. I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running. That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from. There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off. There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever. Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"? Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too? BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure. Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure. But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running. I lost some air constantly testing the bladder. Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water? Prior to operation, with the tank, empty of water, the pressure should be 2psi below the cut-on pressure. I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix or diagram on a hosting site? I'll take some pictures for you. What site is a good one that most people use? The pump could be running all the time if it cannot get up to the cutoff pressure. This could cause it to overheat because water FLOW is the only thing cooling it much, and can certainly soften plastic pipe parts. If it can't pump, the motor energy heats the water in the pump. The pump could be wearing out, and just can't get to cutoff pressure anymore. The black metal plug will rust. Galvanized less so, and brass not at all. |
#7
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On 6/5/2021 7:29 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 6/5/2021 2:56 PM, dan wrote: On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote: Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to recover? That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump. I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats. Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact. I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug. Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection. I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind. I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick. This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly. Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench. No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping. I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running. That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from. There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off. There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever. Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"? Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too? BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure. Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure. But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running. I lost some air constantly testing the bladder. Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water? Prior to operation, with the tank, empty of water, the pressure should be 2psi below the cut-on pressure. I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix or diagram on a hosting site? I'll take some pictures for you. What site is a good one that most people use? The pump could be running all the time if it cannot get up to the cutoff pressure. This could cause it to overheat because water FLOW is the only thing cooling it much, and can certainly soften plastic pipe parts. If it can't pump, the motor energy heats the water in the pump. The pump could be wearing out, and just can't get to cutoff pressure anymore. The black metal plug will rust. Galvanized less so, and brass not at all. Is this pump one of those that turns off based on low flow, not pressure. The flow sensor goes out on these, which will result in continuous running. I recently pick up a slightly used grundfos MQ3-45B, and discovered this while researching the use of it. |
#8
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On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 20:50:47 -0700, Bob F wrote:
The pump could be running all the time if it cannot get up to the cutoff pressure. This could cause it to overheat because water FLOW is the only thing cooling it much, and can certainly soften plastic pipe parts. If it can't pump, the motor energy heats the water in the pump. This is probably what made the plastic plug pop out without stripping. The pump could be wearing out, and just can't get to cutoff pressure anymore. I think it's not getting to cutoff pressure because I measured it more closely and it took less than five minutes to go from 20psi to 52psi but the pump wouldn't shut off. Once off, the pressure remains for hours (overnight is no problem but half a day with water use it what it took so it was only two manual pressure cycles for the whole day today, with showers and washing dishes included). The black metal plug will rust. Galvanized less so, and brass not at all. Is this pump one of those that turns off based on low flow, not pressure. The flow sensor goes out on these, which will result in continuous running. I recently pick up a slightly used grundfos MQ3-45B, and discovered this while researching the use of it. I think I found the source of the hissing which seems to be an air flow on the pipe that connects to the bottom of the pressure switch. That pipe I thought might contain water since it comes off the top of the pump but it likely contains air. It seems to be the pressure that the switch senses. It's way down at the floor level only an inch off the concrete so it's hard to tell but I can put my hand there and feel a slight flow of air even as I can't pinpoint the hissing due to the pump noise (it doesn't hiss with the pump off). What I might do tomorrow is buy a new pressure switch and see how that pipe connects to it. Or, I may just tighten up the pipe fittings. I don't know how these fail so I don't know what is the most likely to be successful. I can post pictures but I have to sign up for imagur first I think. |
#9
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On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 04:48:24 -0200, dan wrote:
I think I found the source of the hissing which seems to be an air flow on the pipe that connects to the bottom of the pressure switch. That pipe I thought might contain water since it comes off the top of the pump but it likely contains air. It seems to be the pressure that the switch senses. It's way down at the floor level only an inch off the concrete so it's hard to tell but I can put my hand there and feel a slight flow of air even as I can't pinpoint the hissing due to the pump noise (it doesn't hiss with the pump off). Put a balloon or a condom on it and see how quickly it inflates. |
#10
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On 6/5/2021 11:48 PM, dan wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 20:50:47 -0700, Bob F wrote: The pump could be running all the time if it cannot get up to the cutoff pressure. This could cause it to overheat because water FLOW is the only thing cooling it much, and can certainly soften plastic pipe parts. If it can't pump, the motor energy heats the water in the pump. This is probably what made the plastic plug pop out without stripping. The pump could be wearing out, and just can't get to cutoff pressure anymore. I think it's not getting to cutoff pressure because I measured it more closely and it took less than five minutes to go from 20psi to 52psi but the pump wouldn't shut off. What is your set cutoff pressure? Higher than 52? That would suggest the pump is the problem. Otherwise, the pressure switch is not working right. Take off the cover and see what it does. Once off, the pressure remains for hours (overnight is no problem but half a day with water use it what it took so it was only two manual pressure cycles for the whole day today, with showers and washing dishes included). The black metal plug will rust. Galvanized less so, and brass not at all. Is this pump one of those that turns off based on low flow, not pressure. The flow sensor goes out on these, which will result in continuous running. I recently pick up a slightly used grundfos MQ3-45B, and discovered this while researching the use of it. I think I found the source of the hissing which seems to be an air flow on the pipe that connects to the bottom of the pressure switch. That pipe I thought might contain water since it comes off the top of the pump but it likely contains air. It seems to be the pressure that the switch senses. The pipe to the switch to the pump carries water pressure to the switch to active it. If there is air coming out of it, that would be surprising to me unless there is significant air leaking into the input side of the pump to mix into the water being pumped. Any leak on it could affect the switch sensing, but I would also expect it to leak water when the pump is off, unless there is a check valve between the pump and the tank. If there is a closed valve or other restriction near the pump on that pipe that only allows very small flow, the air leak could be lowering the pressure seen at the switch. The hissing could be coming from an air bleed valve on the pipe from pump the tank if there is air leakage on the input lines. Otherwise, find and fix the leak to see if that is causing the problem. It's way down at the floor level only an inch off the concrete so it's hard to tell but I can put my hand there and feel a slight flow of air even as I can't pinpoint the hissing due to the pump noise (it doesn't hiss with the pump off). What I might do tomorrow is buy a new pressure switch and see how that pipe connects to it. Or, I may just tighten up the pipe fittings. I don't know how these fail so I don't know what is the most likely to be successful. I can post pictures but I have to sign up for imagur first I think. The first thing I'd look at is the pressure switch.Turn off the power. Most of the ones I've used have a little nut at the top. Remove that and lift the top off, to inspect the mechanism and contacts. Look for two contacts welded together. You can usually operate the switch mechanism by pushing down or lifting up on the little metal plate the the bottom of the big spring pushes against. The contacts should close when you push down, and open when you lift up on that plate. |
#11
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dan writes:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote: Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to recover? There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever. Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"?\ 3/8". Pull the gauge and check the orifice, it's probably plugged with gunk. Clean it out and it should be good to go. |
#12
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dan writes:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote: Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to recover? BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure. Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure. But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running. I lost some air constantly testing the bladder. Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water? Pressurize it to three pounds below the cut-in presssure (e.g. 37# if the switch is configured for 40-60). |
#13
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2021 14:24:30 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Pressurize it to three pounds below the cut-in presssure (e.g. 37# if the switch is configured for 40-60). Thanks for that information. I'll set it at 27 psi given that the gray cap says the switch is a "Pumptrol, SquareD, control circuit A600, Type FSG-2, Form U, class 9013, Ser B, On 30, off 50" but I don't know yet how the air pipe connects to the bottom. Searching I think it's may be this one at Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Square-9013-F.../dp/B00CONESDG The pressure gauge might be this one https://www.amazon.com/Brands2O-TC21.../dp/B000FKDLC4 I'm not sure how to find the bent brass piping though. |
#14
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On 6/6/2021 12:20 PM, dan wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jun 2021 14:24:30 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote: Pressurize it to three pounds below the cut-in presssure (e.g. 37# if the switch is configured for 40-60). Thanks for that information. I'll set it at 27 psi given that the gray cap says the switch is a "Pumptrol, SquareD, control circuit A600, Type FSG-2, Form U, class 9013, Ser B, On 30, off 50" but I don't know yet how the air pipe connects to the bottom. Searching I think it's may be this one at Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Square-9013-F.../dp/B00CONESDG The pressure gauge might be this one https://www.amazon.com/Brands2O-TC21.../dp/B000FKDLC4 I'm not sure how to find the bent brass piping though. Is the pressure gauge on the same pipe as the switch? What value does it read? 0 or some higher value? |
#15
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On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 14:49:32 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Is the pressure gauge on the same pipe as the switch? What value does it read? 0 or some higher value? Let me know if the imgur image uploads works. https://i.imgur.com/Wlbr3oE.jpg pump, pressure gauge, & pressure switch https://i.imgur.com/CoY9Xto.jpg pressure switch & plumbing https://i.imgur.com/4S3jaDC.jpg blown out plastic plug in back of pump https://i.imgur.com/N3zt1zN.jpg 1-inch plastic plug replaced with brass https://i.imgur.com/EmoXlEn.jpg non-tapered holes require tapered plugs https://i.imgur.com/BuUkS0Q.jpg tapered vs non-tapered 1-inch plugs https://i.imgur.com/06RQp4q.jpg brass, galvanized, steel & plastic plugs The pressure at the bladder is 52psi. I can't tell the pressure at the pump because the pressure gauge is stuck. The main question I have is how to DIY the replacement of the pressure switch given I don't even know if it's air or water in the copper pipe. |
#16
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On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 14:49:32 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Is the pressure gauge on the same pipe as the switch? What value does it read? 0 or some higher value? Let me know if the imgur image uploads works. https://i.imgur.com/Wlbr3oE.jpg pump, pressure gauge, & pressure switch https://i.imgur.com/CoY9Xto.jpg pressure switch & plumbing https://i.imgur.com/4S3jaDC.jpg blown out plastic plug in back of pump https://i.imgur.com/N3zt1zN.jpg 1-inch plastic plug replaced with brass https://i.imgur.com/EmoXlEn.jpg non-tapered holes require tapered plugs https://i.imgur.com/BuUkS0Q.jpg tapered vs non-tapered 1-inch plugs https://i.imgur.com/06RQp4q.jpg brass, galvanized, steel & plastic plugs The pressure at the bladder is 52psi. I can't tell the pressure at the pump because the pressure gauge is stuck. The main question I have is how to DIY the replacement of the pressure switch given I don't even know if it's air or water in the copper pipe. |
#17
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dan writes:
On Sun, 06 Jun 2021 14:24:30 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote: Pressurize it to three pounds below the cut-in presssure (e.g. 37# if the switch is configured for 40-60). Thanks for that information. I'll set it at 27 psi given that the gray cap says the switch is a "Pumptrol, SquareD, control circuit A600, Type FSG-2, Form U, class 9013, Ser B, On 30, off 50" but I don't know yet how the air pipe connects to the bottom. Note that the marked values are as shipped from the factory. They're often adjusted in the field. Watch the gauge when it starts and stops to see what the adjusted values are. |
#18
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![]() On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 19:56:00 -0200, dan posted for all of us to digest... On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote: Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to recover? That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump. I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats. Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact. I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug. Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection. I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind. I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick. This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly. Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench. No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping. I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running. That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from. There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off. There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever. Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"? Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too? BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure. Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure. But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running. I lost some air constantly testing the bladder. Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water? I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix or diagram on a hosting site? I'll take some pictures for you. What site is a good one that most people use? I read all the posts.. whew Buy and install a new pressure switch and gauge. Use existing piping. Don't bother messing with the old stuff, it's futile and time wasting. Don't bother messing with the bladder tank, you are going into a rabbit hole, you will burn the pump out. The pump can probably only achieve 52 psi and the switch isn't turning it off. Repeat: get switch & gauge & install with tape & Megaloc. -- Tekkie |
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