On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.

On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go. They will sell you a small expansion tank that gives you some
wiggle room. It can be installed pretty much anywhere in the system.
In a misguided effort to save a little energy some people even
installed check valves in the cold water side of the water heater.
This expansion tank would have to be on the water heater side of that
valve.

On Thu, 20 May 2021 23:46:57 -0400, posted for all of us to
digest...


On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but
hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go. They will sell you a small expansion tank that gives you some
wiggle room. It can be installed pretty much anywhere in the system.
In a misguided effort to save a little energy some people even
installed check valves in the cold water side of the water heater.
This expansion tank would have to be on the water heater side of that
valve.

+1 To: OP The valve responds to temperature and/or pressure. You state the temp
is okay so that should not be the issue. This leaves pressure, which GFretwell
address'. Have you had any other plumbing issues lately? Like water hammer? Are
you on a well or public water?

Thank you for the question and let us know if you need any more help and how
the issue is resolved.

--
Tekkie

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.


Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 9:29:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.

I get that.

I was only commenting on the use of the words €œBack in the olden days
the water expanded back into the system...€�

In millions and millions of houses the water *still* expands back into the
system. Like I said, its not a €œtiming€� thing. What happened in the olden
days still happens, in many, many cases, today. Only the OP can tell us
how his house is set up.

I do find it interesting that the OP is handy enough to replace the T&P valve
but he apparently hasnt ever stuck a thermometer under a faucet.

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:09:46 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 9:29:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.
I get that.

I was only commenting on the use of the words €œBack in the olden days
the water expanded back into the system...€�

In millions and millions of houses the water *still* expands back into the
system. Like I said, its not a €œtiming€� thing. What happened in the olden
days still happens, in many, many cases, today. Only the OP can tell us
how his house is set up.

I do find it interesting that the OP is handy enough to replace the T&P valve
but he apparently hasnt ever stuck a thermometer under a faucet.

Just knowing basic physics goes a long way. Heat water, it expands. Why don't
all pressure relief valves open? Water has somewhere to go. Where does it go
in my house? If you have a well with a tank, the tank is where it goes. If you
have municipal water, it goes there, unless you have a backflow preventer.
Like you pointed out, my house doesn't, nor do most homes here. New ones,
IDK. If you have a BF preventer and no expansion tank or a water logged one,
pressure is exceeded and valve opens. Haven't heard from the OP again.
Maybe the WH blew?

On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 7:31:01 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:09:46 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 9:29:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.
I get that.

I was only commenting on the use of the words €œBack in the olden days
the water expanded back into the system...€�

In millions and millions of houses the water *still* expands back into the
system. Like I said, its not a €œtiming€� thing. What happened in the olden
days still happens, in many, many cases, today. Only the OP can tell us
how his house is set up.

I do find it interesting that the OP is handy enough to replace the T&P valve
but he apparently hasnt ever stuck a thermometer under a faucet.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 22 May 2021 05:30:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:09:46 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 9:29:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.
I get that.

I was only commenting on the use of the words “Back in the olden days
the water expanded back into the system...”

In millions and millions of houses the water *still* expands back into the
system. Like I said, it’s not a “timing” thing. What happened in the olden
days still happens, in many, many cases, today. Only the OP can tell us
how his house is set up.

I do find it interesting that the OP is handy enough to replace the T&P valve
but he apparently hasn’t ever stuck a thermometer under a faucet.

Just knowing basic physics goes a long way. Heat water, it expands. Why don't
all pressure relief valves open? Water has somewhere to go. Where does it go
in my house? If you have a well with a tank, the tank is where it goes. If you
have municipal water, it goes there, unless you have a backflow preventer.
Like you pointed out, my house doesn't, nor do most homes here. New ones,
IDK. If you have a BF preventer and no expansion tank or a water logged one,
pressure is exceeded and valve opens. Haven't heard from the OP again.
Maybe the WH blew?

I think we discussed this before, but I can't remember the answer.

I just don't see how water expansion can be a problem. Prof. Google
says "Water expands about four percent when heated from room temperature
to its boiling point." so if I have an 80 (?) gallon water heater, it
expands at most 3.2 gallons, but a lot less than that since I don't heat
the water anywhere near boiling.

Recommended temp 125 - room temp 70 is 55,
Boiling temp 212 - 70 is 142

55/142 is a a little over 1/3 so if it's proportional, that's 1.4
gallons of exapansion.

Either way, don't the pipes leading to my house or almost any house hold
more than that? So that even if it backs up, it won't get into anyone
else's water? What do 100 feet of water line hold? Professor Google
says "The capacity of a 100-foot length of 1-inch diameter hose is 4
gallons." Maybe none of the water line to a house is 1-inch?


FWIW, I don't have an expansion tank, and when I replaced the water
heater, maybe I violated the regs, but I also couldnt' figure out where
to put one and since they tend to go on the ceiling, it would have been
a lot more effort than only replacing the tank. But to illustrate that
I'm a good citizen anyhow, when I got the tank out of the box, it was
crushed somewhat on top, and the inlet or outlet pipe wasn't even fully
vertical, 5 or 10 degrees off. I could have returned it but they would
have scrapped it, I think. What a waste. So I used it anyhow, even
though it was a little harder to connect, and probably under tension
still, but it's been doing fine for several years. I hope that makes up
for not installing an expansion tank.



(6 PM, notes for another reason, because even something as simple as 6PM
I can forget within 2 minutes.)

On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 10:39:14 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 7:31:01 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:09:46 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 9:29:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.
I get that.

I was only commenting on the use of the words €œBack in the olden days
the water expanded back into the system...€�

In millions and millions of houses the water *still* expands back into the
system. Like I said, its not a €œtiming€� thing. What happened in the olden
days still happens, in many, many cases, today. Only the OP can tell us
how his house is set up.

I do find it interesting that the OP is handy enough to replace the T&P valve
but he apparently hasnt ever stuck a thermometer under a faucet.
Just knowing basic physics goes a long way. Heat water, it expands. Why don't
all pressure relief valves open? Water has somewhere to go. Where does it go
in my house? If you have a well with a tank, the tank is where it goes. If you
have municipal water, it goes there, unless you have a backflow preventer.
Like you pointed out, my house doesn't, nor do most homes here. New ones,
IDK. If you have a BF preventer and no expansion tank or a water logged one,
pressure is exceeded and valve opens. Haven't heard from the OP again.
Maybe the WH blew?
No expansion tank, Back flow preventer? I don't think so. This house was built in1981. as I said it's 5 yr old heater. No other issues until
I replaced the TP valve .The second heater n the house does not blow off. I believe The pressure regulatos set to 35-40 PSI. Rural city water. I have not checked the temp, i'm not sure i have a thermometer to do that with.....

Is the 2nd, no problem, water heater above the problem one? Maybe on the 2nd floor? A column of water, 2.31 ft. high will have 1 psi at the bottom. Multiply by 5, just to be more practical. A column 11.55 ft. high will have 5 psi at the bottom just because of gravity.
Someone suggested a pressure gauge. If you have one, Is it working?

On 5/22/2021 8:39 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 7:31:01 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:09:46 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 9:29:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.
I get that.

I was only commenting on the use of the words €œBack in the olden days
the water expanded back into the system...€�

In millions and millions of houses the water *still* expands back into the
system. Like I said, its not a €œtiming€� thing. What happened in the olden
days still happens, in many, many cases, today. Only the OP can tell us
how his house is set up.

I do find it interesting that the OP is handy enough to replace the T&P valve
but he apparently hasnt ever stuck a thermometer under a faucet.
Just knowing basic physics goes a long way. Heat water, it expands. Why don't
all pressure relief valves open? Water has somewhere to go. Where does it go
in my house? If you have a well with a tank, the tank is where it goes. If you
have municipal water, it goes there, unless you have a backflow preventer.
Like you pointed out, my house doesn't, nor do most homes here. New ones,
IDK. If you have a BF preventer and no expansion tank or a water logged one,
pressure is exceeded and valve opens. Haven't heard from the OP again.
Maybe the WH blew?
No expansion tank, Back flow preventer? I don't think so. This house was built in1981. as I said it's 5 yr old heater. No other issues until
I replaced the TP valve .The second heater n the house does not blow off. I believe The pressure regulator is set to 35-40 PSI. Rural city water. I have not checked the temp, i'm not sure i have a thermometer to do that with....


If you have a pressure regulator, that likely acts as a backflow
preventer, so you might need an expansion tank.

On 5/22/2021 8:41 AM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 22 May 2021 05:30:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:09:46 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 9:29:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.
I get that.

I was only commenting on the use of the words €œBack in the olden days
the water expanded back into the system...€�

In millions and millions of houses the water *still* expands back into the
system. Like I said, its not a €œtiming€� thing. What happened in the olden
days still happens, in many, many cases, today. Only the OP can tell us
how his house is set up.

I do find it interesting that the OP is handy enough to replace the T&P valve
but he apparently hasnt ever stuck a thermometer under a faucet.

Just knowing basic physics goes a long way. Heat water, it expands. Why don't
all pressure relief valves open? Water has somewhere to go. Where does it go
in my house? If you have a well with a tank, the tank is where it goes. If you
have municipal water, it goes there, unless you have a backflow preventer.
Like you pointed out, my house doesn't, nor do most homes here. New ones,
IDK. If you have a BF preventer and no expansion tank or a water logged one,
pressure is exceeded and valve opens. Haven't heard from the OP again.
Maybe the WH blew?

I think we discussed this before, but I can't remember the answer.

I just don't see how water expansion can be a problem. Prof. Google
says "Water expands about four percent when heated from room temperature
to its boiling point." so if I have an 80 (?) gallon water heater, it
expands at most 3.2 gallons, but a lot less than that since I don't heat
the water anywhere near boiling.

There is no room in plumbing systems for expansion. The water goes back
out of the house if there is no backflow preventer or regulator.
Otherwise, an expansion tank is called for. If there is no release for
the expansion, something has to give. The pressure valve on the water
heater is what gives in most houses.



Recommended temp 125 - room temp 70 is 55,
Boiling temp 212 - 70 is 142

55/142 is a a little over 1/3 so if it's proportional, that's 1.4
gallons of exapansion.

That would blow up he pipes in any house. Unless the water heater vents.


Either way, don't the pipes leading to my house or almost any house hold
more than that? So that even if it backs up, it won't get into anyone
else's water? What do 100 feet of water line hold? Professor Google
says "The capacity of a 100-foot length of 1-inch diameter hose is 4
gallons." Maybe none of the water line to a house is 1-inch?

They are already FULL. A garden hose can expand a bit and survive. Metal
or hard plastic pipes, not so much. Water is generally considered not
compressible.



FWIW, I don't have an expansion tank, and when I replaced the water
heater, maybe I violated the regs, but I also couldnt' figure out where
to put one and since they tend to go on the ceiling, it would have been
a lot more effort than only replacing the tank. But to illustrate that
I'm a good citizen anyhow, when I got the tank out of the box, it was
crushed somewhat on top, and the inlet or outlet pipe wasn't even fully
vertical, 5 or 10 degrees off. I could have returned it but they would
have scrapped it, I think. What a waste. So I used it anyhow, even
though it was a little harder to connect, and probably under tension
still, but it's been doing fine for several years. I hope that makes up
for not installing an expansion tank.



(6 PM, notes for another reason, because even something as simple as 6PM
I can forget within 2 minutes.)

micky writes:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 22 May 2021 05:30:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:09:46 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 9:29:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.
I get that.

I was only commenting on the use of the words “Back in the olden days
the water expanded back into the system...”

In millions and millions of houses the water *still* expands back into the
system. Like I said, it’s not a “timing” thing. What happened in the olden
days still happens, in many, many cases, today. Only the OP can tell us
how his house is set up.

I do find it interesting that the OP is handy enough to replace the T&P valve
but he apparently hasn’t ever stuck a thermometer under a faucet.

Just knowing basic physics goes a long way. Heat water, it expands. Why don't
all pressure relief valves open? Water has somewhere to go. Where does it go
in my house? If you have a well with a tank, the tank is where it goes. If you
have municipal water, it goes there, unless you have a backflow preventer.
Like you pointed out, my house doesn't, nor do most homes here. New ones,
IDK. If you have a BF preventer and no expansion tank or a water logged one,
pressure is exceeded and valve opens. Haven't heard from the OP again.
Maybe the WH blew?

I think we discussed this before, but I can't remember the answer.

The basic answer to all of your questions is:

"Water is incompressible"

On 5/22/2021 11:41 AM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 22 May 2021 05:30:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:09:46 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 9:29:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.
I get that.

I was only commenting on the use of the words €œBack in the olden days
the water expanded back into the system...€�

In millions and millions of houses the water *still* expands back into the
system. Like I said, its not a €œtiming€� thing. What happened in the olden
days still happens, in many, many cases, today. Only the OP can tell us
how his house is set up.

I do find it interesting that the OP is handy enough to replace the T&P valve
but he apparently hasnt ever stuck a thermometer under a faucet.

Just knowing basic physics goes a long way. Heat water, it expands. Why don't
all pressure relief valves open? Water has somewhere to go. Where does it go
in my house? If you have a well with a tank, the tank is where it goes. If you
have municipal water, it goes there, unless you have a backflow preventer.
Like you pointed out, my house doesn't, nor do most homes here. New ones,
IDK. If you have a BF preventer and no expansion tank or a water logged one,
pressure is exceeded and valve opens. Haven't heard from the OP again.
Maybe the WH blew?

I think we discussed this before, but I can't remember the answer.

I just don't see how water expansion can be a problem. Prof. Google
says "Water expands about four percent when heated from room temperature
to its boiling point." so if I have an 80 (?) gallon water heater, it
expands at most 3.2 gallons, but a lot less than that since I don't heat
the water anywhere near boiling.

Recommended temp 125 - room temp 70 is 55,
Boiling temp 212 - 70 is 142

55/142 is a a little over 1/3 so if it's proportional, that's 1.4
gallons of exapansion.

Either way, don't the pipes leading to my house or almost any house hold
more than that? So that even if it backs up, it won't get into anyone
else's water? What do 100 feet of water line hold? Professor Google
says "The capacity of a 100-foot length of 1-inch diameter hose is 4
gallons." Maybe none of the water line to a house is 1-inch?


That is a lot of expansion. Since it is maintained at that temperature
expansion is really minimal except when the heater is running, taking in
cold water and adding a gallon or so to the system. Where does it go?
It does not compress so has to be forced out someplace.

If the pressure regulator is bad, that can be the problem too. It can
prevent backing up and/or is is allowing the pressure of the system to
go above the valve setting on the heater.

If you don't know the pressure of the system is is not possible to do a
competent job of troubleshooting the problem and finding the cause.

As for backflow prevention, the main reason is for a drop in city
pressure of system failure. Then your water can flow back to the city
pipes If the city drops, your water heater or home boiler is under
pressure and will go back so will sprinkler heads on your lawn
potentially siphon back with the fertilizer and dog **** from the lawn.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 16:54:03 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but
hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

There is the International Plumbing code (2015 cycle cited here)

607.3 Thermal expansion control. Where a storage water heater is
supplied with cold water that passes through a check valve, pressure
reducing valve or backflow preventer, a thermal expansion tank shall
be connected to the water heater cold water supply pipe at a point
that is downstream of all check valves, pressure reducing valves and
backflow preventers. Thermal expansion tanks shall be sized in
accordance with the tank manufacturers instructions and shall be
sized such that the pressure in the water distribution system shall
not exceed that required by Section 604.8.

SECTION 608 PROTECTION OF POTABLE WATER SUPPLY 608.1 General. A
potable water supply system shall be designed, installed and
maintained in such a manner so as to prevent contamination from
non-potable liquids, solids or gases being introduced into the potable
water supply through cross-connections or any other piping connections
to the system. Backflow preventers shall conform to the applicable
Standard referenced in Table 608.1. Backflow preventer applications
shall conform to Table 608.1, except as specifically stated in
Sections 608.2 through 608.16.27 and Sections 608.18 through 608.18.2.


***********
It goes on to describe all of the code compliant ways to prevent water
from flowing back into the water system.

On 5/22/2021 1:36 PM, Heywood wrote:
On 5/22/2021 11:41 AM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 22 May 2021 05:30:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:09:46 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 9:29:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve
popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues
for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips
again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp
down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not
overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could
have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system
but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.
I get that.

I was only commenting on the use of the words €œBack in the olden days
the water expanded back into the system...€�

In millions and millions of houses the water *still* expands back
into the
system. Like I said, its not a €œtiming€� thing. What happened in the
olden
days still happens, in many, many cases, today. Only the OP can tell us
how his house is set up.

I do find it interesting that the OP is handy enough to replace the
T&P valve
but he apparently hasnt ever stuck a thermometer under a faucet.

Just knowing basic physics goes a long way.Â* Heat water, it expands.
Why don't
all pressure relief valves open?Â*Â* Water has somewhere to go.Â* Where
does it go
in my house?Â*Â*Â* If you have a well with a tank, the tank is where it
goes.Â* If you
have municipal water, it goes there, unless you have a backflow
preventer.
Like you pointed out, my house doesn't, nor do most homes here.Â* New
ones,
IDK.Â*Â*Â* If you have a BF preventer and no expansion tank or a water
logged one,
pressure is exceeded and valve opens.Â* Haven't heard from the OP again.
Maybe the WH blew?

I think we discussed this before, but I can't remember the answer.

I just don't see how water expansion can be a problem.Â* Prof. Google
says "Water expands about four percent when heated from room temperature
to its boiling point." so if I have an 80 (?) gallon water heater, it
expands at most 3.2 gallons, but a lot less than that since I don't heat
the water anywhere near boiling.

Recommended temp 125 - room temp 70 is 55,
Boiling temp 212 - 70 is 142

55/142 is a a little over 1/3 so if it's proportional, that's 1.4
gallons of exapansion.

Either way, don't the pipes leading to my house or almost any house hold
more than that? So that even if it backs up, it won't get into anyone
else's water?Â*Â*Â* What do 100 feet of water line hold?Â*Â* Professor Google
says "The capacity of a 100-foot length of 1-inch diameter hose is 4
gallons."Â*Â* Maybe none of the water line to a house is 1-inch?


That is a lot of expansion.Â* Since it is maintained at that temperature
expansion is really minimal except when the heater is running, taking in
cold water and adding a gallon or so to the system.Â* Where does it go?
It does not compress so has to be forced out someplace.

If the pressure regulator is bad, that can be the problem too.Â* It can
prevent backing up and/or is is allowing the pressure of the system to
go above the valve setting on the heater.

If you don't know the pressure of the system is is not possible to do a
competent job of troubleshooting the problem and finding the cause.

As for backflow prevention, the main reason is for a drop in city
pressure of system failure.Â* Then your water can flow back to the city
pipesÂ* If the city drops, your water heater or home boiler is under
pressure and will go back so will sprinkler heads on your lawn
potentially siphon back with the fertilizer and dog **** from the lawn.

" €‹In most areas, an expansion tank or expansion device must be
installed whenever a pressure regulator is installed and there is a
tank-style water heater. The expansion tank protects the plumbing
components (including the pressure regulator itself) from premature
failure due to high pressure resulting from a closed system.€‹
Expansion Tank
One of the characteristics of a pressure regulator, aside from lowering
the pressure, is that they only allow the water to flow one way - into
the home. If the water tries to flow out of the home (back to the
street) it cannot. This is known as a "closed" plumbing system. In a
closed system, the pressure of the water inside the water heater will
increase as the water is heated because the water is trying to expand
but cannot. Because water pressure is the same everywhere in a plumbing
system, this means that the pressure inside the pipes increases, as does
the pressure placed on the various plumbing fixtures, and the
back-pressure on the pressure regulator."

https://www.makeasmartstart.com/blog...xpansion-tanks

"Bob F" wrote in message
...
On 5/22/2021 1:36 PM, Heywood wrote:
On 5/22/2021 11:41 AM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 22 May 2021 05:30:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:09:46 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 9:29:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F
wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve
popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for
about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again
in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down,
I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly
hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could
have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but
now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere
to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow
preventers.

Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.
I get that.

I was only commenting on the use of the words €œBack in the olden days
the water expanded back into the system...€�

In millions and millions of houses the water *still* expands back into
the
system. Like I said, its not a €œtiming€� thing. What happened in the
olden
days still happens, in many, many cases, today. Only the OP can tell
us
how his house is set up.

I do find it interesting that the OP is handy enough to replace the
T&P valve
but he apparently hasnt ever stuck a thermometer under a faucet.

Just knowing basic physics goes a long way. Heat water, it expands.
Why don't
all pressure relief valves open? Water has somewhere to go. Where
does it go
in my house? If you have a well with a tank, the tank is where it
goes. If you
have municipal water, it goes there, unless you have a backflow
preventer.
Like you pointed out, my house doesn't, nor do most homes here. New
ones,
IDK. If you have a BF preventer and no expansion tank or a water
logged one,
pressure is exceeded and valve opens. Haven't heard from the OP again.
Maybe the WH blew?

I think we discussed this before, but I can't remember the answer.

I just don't see how water expansion can be a problem. Prof. Google
says "Water expands about four percent when heated from room temperature
to its boiling point." so if I have an 80 (?) gallon water heater, it
expands at most 3.2 gallons, but a lot less than that since I don't heat
the water anywhere near boiling.

Recommended temp 125 - room temp 70 is 55,
Boiling temp 212 - 70 is 142

55/142 is a a little over 1/3 so if it's proportional, that's 1.4
gallons of exapansion.

Either way, don't the pipes leading to my house or almost any house hold
more than that? So that even if it backs up, it won't get into anyone
else's water? What do 100 feet of water line hold? Professor Google
says "The capacity of a 100-foot length of 1-inch diameter hose is 4
gallons." Maybe none of the water line to a house is 1-inch?


That is a lot of expansion. Since it is maintained at that temperature
expansion is really minimal except when the heater is running, taking in
cold water and adding a gallon or so to the system. Where does it go? It
does not compress so has to be forced out someplace.

If the pressure regulator is bad, that can be the problem too. It can
prevent backing up and/or is is allowing the pressure of the system to go
above the valve setting on the heater.

If you don't know the pressure of the system is is not possible to do a
competent job of troubleshooting the problem and finding the cause.

As for backflow prevention, the main reason is for a drop in city
pressure of system failure. Then your water can flow back to the city
pipes If the city drops, your water heater or home boiler is under
pressure and will go back so will sprinkler heads on your lawn
potentially siphon back with the fertilizer and dog **** from the lawn.

" €‹In most areas, an expansion tank or expansion device must be installed
whenever a pressure regulator is installed and there is a tank-style water
heater. The expansion tank protects the plumbing components (including the
pressure regulator itself) from premature failure due to high pressure
resulting from a closed system.It isnt a closed system, there is a pressure relief valve in the water
heater.

Expansion Tank
One of the characteristics of a pressure regulator, aside from lowering
the pressure, is that they only allow the water to flow one way - into the
home. If the water tries to flow out of the home (back to the street) it
cannot. This is known as a "closed" plumbing system. In a closed system,
the pressure of the water inside the water heater will increase as the
water is heated because the water is trying to expand but cannot. Because
water pressure is the same everywhere in a plumbing system, this means
that the pressure inside the pipes increases, as does the pressure placed
on the various plumbing fixtures, and the back-pressure on the pressure
regulator."

Not when there is a pressure relief valve in the water heater.

We dont have any expansion tanks and do have backflow preventers.

https://www.makeasmartstart.com/blog...xpansion-tanks

On Sun, 23 May 2021 15:05:35 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

Not when

LOL!

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing the auto-contradicting senile cretin:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 11:39:14 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Saturday, May 22, 2021 at 7:31:01 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 10:09:46 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 9:29:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 5/21/2021 7:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 11:48:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2021 18:10:27 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 5/20/2021 4:51 PM, wrote:
About a month ago my water heater (4ish years old) T&P valve popped off and wouldn't re-seal, so I replaced it. No issues for about a month, now it's dripping. I can"burp it" but drips again in a little bit. I'm wondering if I need to turn the temp down, I'ts where ever the factory set it, seems pretty hot. Not overly hot but hot. Thoughts??


Is there an expansion tank associated with this heater? It could have
failed.
That is my guess, if there is even a tank installed.
Back in the olden days the water expanded back into the system but now
they have back flow preventers and the expanded water has nowhere to
go.

Well, it's not a "timing" thing, it's a "system" thing.

Not all houses, even in these modern times, have backflow preventers.

Yeah, but most new ones do, especially if you have irrigation. My gas
fired water heat has an expansion tank too. Thousands of house built
here have them. Unheard of years ago it is now code many places.
I get that.

I was only commenting on the use of the words €œBack in the olden days
the water expanded back into the system...€�

In millions and millions of houses the water *still* expands back into the
system. Like I said, its not a €œtiming€� thing. What happened in the olden
days still happens, in many, many cases, today. Only the OP can tell us
how his house is set up.

I do find it interesting that the OP is handy enough to replace the T&P valve
but he apparently hasnt ever stuck a thermometer under a faucet.
Just knowing basic physics goes a long way. Heat water, it expands. Why don't
all pressure relief valves open? Water has somewhere to go. Where does it go
in my house? If you have a well with a tank, the tank is where it goes. If you
have municipal water, it goes there, unless you have a backflow preventer.
Like you pointed out, my house doesn't, nor do most homes here. New ones,
IDK. If you have a BF preventer and no expansion tank or a water logged one,
pressure is exceeded and valve opens. Haven't heard from the OP again.
Maybe the WH blew?
No expansion tank, Back flow preventer? I don't think so.

Does that mean you looked and you don't have them or you didn't look
and are guessing?

This house was built in1981. as I said it's 5 yr old heater. No other issues until
I replaced the TP valve .

You said you replaced that one because it opened. Now the new one is dripping.
That suggests that temp or pressure is the problem. But it could also be that the
new valve is defective. Since you can't measure the temp or pressure, the possible
paths a

Buy a thermometer and a cheap pressure gauge that you can connect to a spigot
on the system.

Buy a new TP valve

Make a likely determination based on what you see. If the water does not
seem extremely hot coming out of a faucet, it's not a temp problem. If the
pressure does not appear to be very high at faucets, spigots, etc, it's probably
not a pressure problem.

Try turning down the temperature on the tank, does that stop it? If not,
leave a faucet with a tiny stream flowing and see if that stops it. If not,
then it's a faulty TPR.





The second heater n the house does not blow off. I believe The pressure regulator is set to 35-40 PSI. Rural city water. I have not checked the temp, i'm not sure i have a thermometer to do that with....

On Sun, 23 May 2021 06:45:49 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

I believe The pressure regulator is set to 35-40 PSI. Rural city water. I have not checked the temp, i'm not sure i have a thermometer to do that with....

That is awful low. City water is typically delivered at 60-80 PSI.
Plumbing fixtures are rated at 80 so that 3GPM shower head is going to
be pretty wimpy at 40.
My "house pump" on the well is set 40-60 and it is still not that
great with all the low flow fixtures I have. The Price ****er kitchen
faucet is the worst. I doubt I get 2 GPM out of it.

On 5/22/21 1:34 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

[snip]

The basic answer to all of your questions is:

"Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.

--
"I long for the commercialized Christmas of the 1970s. It's got so
religious now, it's lost its true meaning."

In article , says...

** "Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").



The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.

For all practical purposes water is incompressible. I am sure it could
be compressed if it fell into a black hole.

On 5/23/2021 10:30 AM, Sam E wrote:
On 5/22/21 1:34 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

[snip]

The basic answer to all of your questions is:

Â*Â* "Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").

On 2021-05-23, Bob F wrote:
" €‹In most areas, an expansion tank or expansion device must be
installed whenever a pressure regulator is installed and there is a
tank-style water heater. The expansion tank protects the plumbing
components (including the pressure regulator itself) from premature
failure due to high pressure resulting from a closed system.€‹

This problem, like so many others, will be resolved when that happy day
comes when Leftists are rounded up and transported to predetermined locations
around the country where they can then be exterminated.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

18 Reasons I won't be vaccinated -- https://tinyurl.com/ebty2dx3
Covid vaccines: experimental biology -- https://tinyurl.com/57mncfm5
The fraud of "Climate Change" -- https://RealClimateScience.com
Don't talk to cops! -- https://DontTalkToCops.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 23 May 2021 18:21:22 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

** "Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").



The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.

No Plutonium bombs were "gun" type bombs. Half the Pt was at one end
of the "barrel" and it was fired into the other half to become
critical.

Gun types won't compress uranium enough to go critical so is a sphere
with explosives all around, timed perfectly to focus the pressure wave
into the center form all sides at once.

For all practical purposes water is incompressible. I am sure it could
be compressed if it fell into a black hole.

Everything is compressible, to some degree. Water compresses at ~50
ppm per atm (water isn't special in this regard). It's certainly not
enough for this application but not absolute either.

"Roger Blake" wrote in message
...
On 2021-05-23, Bob F wrote:
" €‹In most areas, an expansion tank or expansion device must be
installed whenever a pressure regulator is installed and there is a
tank-style water heater. The expansion tank protects the plumbing
components (including the pressure regulator itself) from premature
failure due to high pressure resulting from a closed system.
This problem, like so many others, will be resolved when that happy day
comes when Leftists are rounded up and transported to predetermined
locations around the country where they can then be exterminated.

Didnt realise you had managed to escape to the USA, Adolf.

On Sun, 23 May 2021 19:39:36 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 23 May 2021 18:21:22 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

Â*Â* "Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").



The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.

No Plutonium bombs were "gun" type bombs. Half the Pt was at one end
of the "barrel" and it was fired into the other half to become
critical.

I think you have that backward. The "Little boy" gun bomb used U-235
and "Fat Man" implosion bomb used plutonium.
That is why newcomers to the nuclear arms race are enriching uranium.
The gun bomb is a whole lot simpler to build.

https://www.atomicheritage.org/histo...oy-and-fat-man

On Sun, 23 May 2021 22:09:03 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 23 May 2021 19:39:36 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 23 May 2021 18:21:22 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

** "Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").



The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.

No Plutonium bombs were "gun" type bombs. Half the Pt was at one end
of the "barrel" and it was fired into the other half to become
critical.

I think you have that backward. The "Little boy" gun bomb used U-235
and "Fat Man" implosion bomb used plutonium.
That is why newcomers to the nuclear arms race are enriching uranium.
The gun bomb is a whole lot simpler to build.

https://www.atomicheritage.org/histo...oy-and-fat-man

You're right. I was thinking that plutonium was easier to make
critical but it was actually harder. It was much easier to produce,
which is why all the work was put into developing Fat Man.

On Mon, 24 May 2021 10:56:31 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread


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cretin's pathological trolling:
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On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 12:30:15 PM UTC-4, Sam E wrote:
On 5/22/21 1:34 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

[snip]
The basic answer to all of your questions is:

"Water is incompressible"
IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


Probably depends on how much air is in the water.

On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 6:21:28 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

"Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").


The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.

That was my understanding too. I don't think any explosive or probably anything
at all can compress a metal to half it's volume.



For all practical purposes water is incompressible. I am sure it could
be compressed if it fell into a black hole.

Maybe I should change that to nothing here on the planet can compress a metal
to half it's volume.

On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 7:39:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2021 18:21:22 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

"Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").



The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.
No Plutonium bombs were "gun" type bombs. Half the Pt was at one end
of the "barrel" and it was fired into the other half to become
critical.

That's wrong, it was early gun type bombs that used uranium, implosion
devices use plutonium because plutonium required it. AFAIK, the US only set
off one of gun type, the bomb at Hiroshima.




Gun types won't compress uranium enough to go critical so is a sphere
with explosives all around, timed perfectly to focus the pressure wave
into the center form all sides at once.

That's wrong too. The first uranium pile at the University of Chicago went
critical when the graphite moderating rods were removed, starting the first
nuclear fission reactor and nothing was compressed with explosives or anything
else at all.

"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 7:39:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2021 18:21:22 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

"Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy.
If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").



The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.
No Plutonium bombs were "gun" type bombs. Half the Pt was at one end
of the "barrel" and it was fired into the other half to become
critical.

That's wrong, it was early gun type bombs that used uranium,
implosion devices use plutonium because plutonium required it.
AFAIK, the US only set off one of gun type, the bomb at Hiroshima.

The first test one in the USA was too.

The detail of the various later tests is less clear.

Gun types won't compress uranium enough to go critical so is a sphere
with explosives all around, timed perfectly to focus the pressure wave
into the center form all sides at once.

That's wrong too. The first uranium pile at the University of Chicago
went
critical when the graphite moderating rods were removed, starting the
first
nuclear fission reactor and nothing was compressed with explosives or
anything
else at all.

On Tue, 25 May 2021 04:57:51 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Marland answering senile Rodent's statement, "I don't leak":
"That¢s because so much **** and ****e emanates from your gob that there is
nothing left to exit normally, your arsehole has clammed shut through disuse
and the end of prick is only clear because you are such a ******."
Message-ID:

On 5/23/2021 5:39 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2021 18:21:22 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

Â*Â* "Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").



The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.

Plutonium bombs, at least the first 2, the plutonium sphere was solid
except for a small "initiator" at the center (that, when the core was
compressed, furnished neutrons to start the chain reaction). The
plutonium core (and the "damper" around it) were, in fact, compressed to
1/2 their volume.


No Plutonium bombs were "gun" type bombs. Half the Pt was at one end
of the "barrel" and it was fired into the other half to become
critical.

As in other posts, U235 bombs were a gun type.
The uranium "bullet" was not half the uranium mass.


Gun types won't compress uranium enough to go critical so is a sphere
with explosives all around, timed perfectly to focus the pressure wave
into the center form all sides at once.

Plutonium bombs could have used a "gun" mechanism. The problem is that
plutonium has natural decay that produces neutrons that would cause a
chain reaction before the 2 masses were fully together. That chain
reaction would produce a heat explosion that would blow the parts apart.
That would result in a weak partial explosion.

The implosion bomb created a critical mass by compression in a much
shorter time.

The "perfect timing" of the explosions (multiple) was a major
engineering problem that was solved with "explosive lenses".


For all practical purposes water is incompressible. I am sure it could
be compressed if it fell into a black hole.

Everything is compressible, to some degree. Water compresses at ~50
ppm per atm (water isn't special in this regard). It's certainly not
enough for this application but not absolute either.


Water, and solids, are incompressible in the world we live in.
My point was that they are, in fact, compressible. And that does not
require the total energy of the sun.

On 5/24/2021 12:57 PM, Rod Speed wrote:


"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 7:39:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2021 18:21:22 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

"Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of
energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still)
work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire
sphere is
suddenly "critical").



The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.
No Plutonium bombs were "gun" type bombs. Half the Pt was at one end
of the "barrel" and it was fired into the other half to become
critical.

That's wrong, it was early gun type bombs that used uranium,
implosion devices use plutonium because plutonium required it.
AFAIK, the US only set off one of gun type, the bomb at Hiroshima.

The first test one in the USA was too.

The first test at Alamogordo was a plutonium implosion bomb. There were
questions whether the implosion process could be made to work. Uniform
compression with explosives was a big engineering problem.

The second bomb used, at Nagasaki, was also plutonium implosion.

Hiroshima was uranium gun type.


The detail of the various later tests is less clear.

On Mon, 24 May 2021 07:23:08 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 6:21:28 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

"Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").


The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.

That was my understanding too. I don't think any explosive or probably anything
at all can compress a metal to half it's volume.



For all practical purposes water is incompressible. I am sure it could
be compressed if it fell into a black hole.

Maybe I should change that to nothing here on the planet can compress a metal
to half it's volume.

Gravity can do it, like in a neutron star or a black hole.
That really doesn't have anything to do with what goes on here tho.
For all practical purposes, water don't compress and if you don't have
something to deal with expansion something is going to break or pop
open, like that TPS valve.
Unfortunately they have a bad habit of not sealing back up again.

On Tue, 25 May 2021 04:57:51 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 7:39:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2021 18:21:22 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

"Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy.
If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").



The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.
No Plutonium bombs were "gun" type bombs. Half the Pt was at one end
of the "barrel" and it was fired into the other half to become
critical.

That's wrong, it was early gun type bombs that used uranium,
implosion devices use plutonium because plutonium required it.
AFAIK, the US only set off one of gun type, the bomb at Hiroshima.

The first test one in the USA was too.

The detail of the various later tests is less clear.

Trinity was an implosion bomb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinit...uclear_test%29

Gun types won't compress uranium enough to go critical so is a sphere
with explosives all around, timed perfectly to focus the pressure wave
into the center form all sides at once.

That's wrong too. The first uranium pile at the University of Chicago
went
critical when the graphite moderating rods were removed, starting the
first
nuclear fission reactor and nothing was compressed with explosives or
anything
else at all.

On Mon, 24 May 2021 07:34:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 7:39:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2021 18:21:22 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

"Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy. If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").



The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.
No Plutonium bombs were "gun" type bombs. Half the Pt was at one end
of the "barrel" and it was fired into the other half to become
critical.

That's wrong, it was early gun type bombs that used uranium, implosion
devices use plutonium because plutonium required it. AFAIK, the US only set
off one of gun type, the bomb at Hiroshima.

I see that you can't read, either.

On Mon, 24 May 2021 19:08:08 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 25 May 2021 04:57:51 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"trader_4" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 7:39:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2021 18:21:22 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

"Water is incompressible"

IIRC, it actually is but it takes a really large amount of energy.
If
the sun were 100% converted to energy, it still wouldn't be enough.


I doubt that.
And what volume of water compressed by how much?

Plutonium "fission" atom bombs originally (and probably still) work on
"implosion". Explosives around the plutonium reduce the volume of the
solid metal sphere to 1/2 the original volume (so the entire sphere is
suddenly "critical").



The info I see is the plutonium is a hollow sphere filled with hydrogen
gas, so relative easy to compress with the bomb around it that sets it
off. It is not a solid sphere.
No Plutonium bombs were "gun" type bombs. Half the Pt was at one end
of the "barrel" and it was fired into the other half to become
critical.

That's wrong, it was early gun type bombs that used uranium,
implosion devices use plutonium because plutonium required it.
AFAIK, the US only set off one of gun type, the bomb at Hiroshima.

The first test one in the USA was too.

The detail of the various later tests is less clear.

Trinity was an implosion bomb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinit...uclear_test%29

Right. They KNEW the gun bomb was going to work. They weren't sure
the lenses would work.