I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses. Too
expensive?
By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA

In Dean Hoffman writes:

I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses. Too
expensive?

Plenty out there. "Geothermal heat pump".

Problem is much higher upfront cost than traditional
air to air for cooling, and a hefty chunk more
than for natural gas or oil for heating.

--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On 9/15/2020 6:13 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Â*Â*Â* I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day. He
was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
Â* It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses.Â* Too
expensive?
Â*Â* By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA

I know two people that looked into it for houses they were building.
Initial cost was the deciding factor for them. Don't know enough about
the specifics and payback time.

There is a video of Mike explaining how he got into the business using
opera to get a union card.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MItl...ab_channel=CNN

On 9/15/2020 5:13 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Â*Â*Â* I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day. He
was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
Â* It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses.Â* Too
expensive?
....

We put in ground loop geothermal system in the house in TN to replace
the original air-exchange heat pump. Not a well, but 7-8 ft trench with
heat transfer loop tubing at bottom and about halfway.

NG not available and didn't want the big tank. With a thermal switch to
ensure the aux electric heat didn't come on unless outside temp 20 F,
it had great performance and payback compared to the older heat pump
about 4 years.

That was retrofit so excavation costs were a fair amount more than would
have been if had done when doing the excavations for basement and septic
when the house was built.

I'm sold on concept...

Ours was Water Furnace brand/manufacturer. We were there 7-8 years
after doing it and now been back to farm 20 years. Last I knew, it was
still going strong although that's about 3 years now since we stopped in
and met the folks after the folks after the folks we sold to.

We didn't do it because the layout inside the house wasn't amenable, but
one can get much cheaper hot water during cooling season from the exit
side waste heat as an additional payback mechanism.

--

"Dean Hoffman" wrote in message
...
I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day. He
was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for something
like an old folks home.

It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses.

Yes they do.

Too expensive?

Thats certainly the reason that they arent common.

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:13:13 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses. Too
expensive?
By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA


All-The-Rage here about 15 years ago -
not the well-type as much as the ground loop.
My neighbour had a system installed on 2 sides
side and back of his ~ 3/4 acre lot.
At that time the cost was about 20 grand but the
government rebates would kick you back about
6 grand. helping greatly with the pay-back time.
They work great 3 seasons here in Southern Ontario
but the cold months require auxilliary heat.
John T.

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 18:50:11 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 9/15/2020 5:13 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
*** I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day. He
was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
* It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses.* Too
expensive?
...

We put in ground loop geothermal system in the house in TN to replace
the original air-exchange heat pump. Not a well, but 7-8 ft trench with
heat transfer loop tubing at bottom and about halfway.

NG not available and didn't want the big tank. With a thermal switch to
ensure the aux electric heat didn't come on unless outside temp 20 F,
it had great performance and payback compared to the older heat pump
about 4 years.

That was retrofit so excavation costs were a fair amount more than would
have been if had done when doing the excavations for basement and septic
when the house was built.

I'm sold on concept...

Ours was Water Furnace brand/manufacturer. We were there 7-8 years
after doing it and now been back to farm 20 years. Last I knew, it was
still going strong although that's about 3 years now since we stopped in
and met the folks after the folks after the folks we sold to.


An old high school friend (Dave Hatherton) was one of the brains
behind "water Furnace". His family was in the well drilling business
(Hadco Well Drilling in Elmira Ontario)

He's done a LOT of business in Ontario and beyond - including a lot of
residential sysetems

We didn't do it because the layout inside the house wasn't amenable, but
one can get much cheaper hot water during cooling season from the exit
side waste heat as an additional payback mechanism.

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:40:53 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:13:13 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses. Too
expensive?
By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA


All-The-Rage here about 15 years ago -
not the well-type as much as the ground loop.
My neighbour had a system installed on 2 sides
side and back of his ~ 3/4 acre lot.
At that time the cost was about 20 grand but the
government rebates would kick you back about
6 grand. helping greatly with the pay-back time.
They work great 3 seasons here in Southern Ontario
but the cold months require auxilliary heat.
John T.
A lot of Water Fuenace installs here require aux heat only about 15
days a year for an "average" central Ontario winter. Last winter was a
bit of an exception with several long stretches below -20C

On 9/15/2020 6:24 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:40:53 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:13:13 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses. Too
expensive?
By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA


All-The-Rage here about 15 years ago -
not the well-type as much as the ground loop.
My neighbour had a system installed on 2 sides
side and back of his ~ 3/4 acre lot.
At that time the cost was about 20 grand but the
government rebates would kick you back about
6 grand. helping greatly with the pay-back time.
They work great 3 seasons here in Southern Ontario
but the cold months require auxilliary heat.
John T.
A lot of Water Fuenace installs here require aux heat only about 15
days a year for an "average" central Ontario winter. Last winter was a
bit of an exception with several long stretches below -20C


I got an estimate on a ground source heat pump decades ago. One of the
interesting suggestions was to add a Solar Water heating panel to the
system to "recharge" the ground heat energy. With modern evacuated tube
water heater panels, that could actually work these days.

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:13:13 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses. Too
expensive?
By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA

I've been to a house in Dover, Del. with geothermal heating and cooling.
Not a cheap h ouse but no mansion either. T hey seem to have removed
two new AC compressors in the process of installing the geothermal.

On 9/15/2020 7:49 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:13:13 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses. Too
expensive?
By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA

I've been to a house in Dover, Del. with geothermal heating and cooling.
Not a cheap h ouse but no mansion either. T hey seem to have removed
two new AC compressors in the process of installing the geothermal.


IIt is likely thqt the compressor characteristics would be different.
Certainly, temps are different than air source.

On 9/15/2020 8:10 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 9/15/2020 7:49 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:13:13 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

Â*Â*Â*Â* I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
Â*Â* It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses.Â* Too
expensive?
Â*Â*Â* By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA

I've been to a house in Dover, Del. with geothermal heating and cooling.
Not a cheap h ouse but no mansion either.Â* T hey seem to have removed
two new AC compressors in the process of installing the geothermal.


It is likely thqt the compressor characteristics would be different.
Certainly, temps are different than air source.

Actually, the heat pump requirements probably forced the change from AC
compressors.

On 9/15/20 9:12 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 9/15/2020 6:24 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:40:53 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:13:13 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

Â*Â*Â*Â* I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
Â*Â* It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses.Â* Too
expensive?
Â*Â*Â* By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA


All-The-RageÂ* here about 15 years agoÂ* -
not the well-typeÂ* as much as theÂ* ground loop.
My neighbour had a system installed onÂ* 2 sides
side and back of hisÂ* ~Â* 3/4Â* acre lot.
At that time the cost was aboutÂ* 20 grandÂ* but the
government rebates would kick you back about
6Â* grand.Â*Â* helping greatly with the pay-back time.
They work greatÂ* 3 seasonsÂ* here in Southern Ontario
but the cold months require auxilliary heat.
Â*Â* John T.
Â* A lot of Water Fuenace installs here require aux heat only about 15
days a year for an "average" central Ontario winter. Last winter was a
bit of an exception with several long stretches below -20C


I got an estimate on a ground source heat pump decades ago. One of the
interesting suggestions was to add a Solar Water heating panel to the
system to "recharge" the ground heat energy. With modern evacuated tube
water heater panels, that could actually work these days.

I didn't see how evacuated tube panels worked by looking at
pictures. It seemed like the tubes should've been connected in series
with water running through them instead of parallel like they are.
This guy gave a good explanation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGsmlIoiJN8

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:40:53 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:13:13 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses. Too
expensive?
By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA


All-The-Rage here about 15 years ago -
not the well-type as much as the ground loop.
My neighbour had a system installed on 2 sides
side and back of his ~ 3/4 acre lot.
At that time the cost was about 20 grand but the
government rebates would kick you back about
6 grand. helping greatly with the pay-back time.
They work great 3 seasons here in Southern Ontario
but the cold months require auxilliary heat.

My housing development down here in south Mississippi is new, with
everything either built last year or this year. Each house has the ground
loop that you described. Down here, it almost never gets down to freezing,
so the systems seem to work pretty well.

I have other concerns/complaints about the HVAC system in my house, but the
heat pump aspect of it seems to be fine.

On 9/15/2020 8:17 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 18:50:11 -0500, dpb wrote:

....

Ours was Water Furnace brand/manufacturer. We were there 7-8 years
after doing it and now been back to farm 20 years. Last I knew, it was
still going strong although that's about 3 years now since we stopped in
and met the folks after the folks after the folks we sold to.


An old high school friend (Dave Hatherton) was one of the brains
behind "water Furnace". His family was in the well drilling business
(Hadco Well Drilling in Elmira Ontario)

He's done a LOT of business in Ontario and beyond - including a lot of
residential sysetems

....

Good on him...I've not looked since as we've got NG on farm from a tap
off the main pipeline out in the pasture, but they built a quality product.

The local contractor who had franchise in E TN had done a lot of them
down on the lakefront with the lake as the heat sink/source; ours was
the first ground loop he had done.

That's been 30+ year ago now, incredibly it seems impossible to have
been back on the farm 20 years already...

--

On 9/15/2020 10:11 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 9/15/2020 8:10 PM, Bob F wrote:
....

I've been to a house in Dover, Del. with geothermal heating and cooling.
Not a cheap h ouse but no mansion either.Â* T hey seem to have removed
two new AC compressors in the process of installing the geothermal.


It is likely thqt the compressor characteristics would be different.
Certainly, temps are different than air source.

Actually, the heat pump requirements probably forced the change from AC
compressors.

You don't have the noisy outside compressors any more...one of the real
pluses...unless the heat sink isn't sufficiently large like the heat
source not sufficient to require aux heat.

--

In article ,
lid says...

My housing development down here in south Mississippi is new, with
everything either built last year or this year. Each house has the ground
loop that you described. Down here, it almost never gets down to freezing,
so the systems seem to work pretty well.



I would think that in Mississippi it would be the oppsite. YOu do not
need to worry too much about heating, but more so with cooling and
humidity control. So better to have the coils in the cooler earth than
in the much hotter air.

I often see and understand how the efficiency of the heat pumps go down
when it gets cold and you need auxillary heat. I have never seen any
refference as to how to get extra cooling from the normal air installed
heat pumps. I am sure the gound loop system would be much more efficent
than the air system even in hot weather.

We've done a lot on commercial buildings where I work in Virginia, none on residential.

Results have been good BUT if you don't install perfectly it's really hard to troubleshoot or fix. High quality installation is more critical here than on most systems I've run into.

Most of ours are well type systems because of space. Oh, and if you aren't careful to keep all the trash out including deburring PVC, expect to be cleaning strainers for months.

On 9/16/2020 8:47 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
lid says...

My housing development down here in south Mississippi is new, with
everything either built last year or this year. Each house has the ground
loop that you described. Down here, it almost never gets down to freezing,
so the systems seem to work pretty well.



I would think that in Mississippi it would be the oppsite. YOu do not
need to worry too much about heating, but more so with cooling and
humidity control. So better to have the coils in the cooler earth than
in the much hotter air.

I often see and understand how the efficiency of the heat pumps go down
when it gets cold and you need auxillary heat. I have never seen any
refference as to how to get extra cooling from the normal air installed
heat pumps. I am sure the gound loop system would be much more efficent
than the air system even in hot weather.

Air-exchange heat pumps are just conventional A/C units when reverse
valves for A/C.

And of course it's much less efficient to discharge the waste heat from
the A/C when ambient is 100F, just as it is harder to extract heat from
40 F air for heating.

The geothermal source/sink is much more nearly stable and if properly
sized can handle both cycles. With ours, the aux heat controls by
default would kick on with a 3 F setpoint mismatch to provide more
rapid warmup after an overnight setback in the morning, but we included
a cutout to prevent them from kicking on unless outside 20F and never
missed them.

The geothermal systems also can be set up to use waste heat on cooling
cycle as preheat for hot water that can cut that cost down noticeably in
cooling season as well. That's better in warmer climates, obviously.

--

My office is in a building with water source heat pumps for each area.

There is a water loop for the whole building. That loop includes a cooling tower and a boiler. Then there are 20 or so individual water source heat pumps for the office areas that exchange heat with the water loop.

This type setup is new to me but the energy savings have been larger than we expected, and reliability is high. There is no outside chiller needed at all.

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:11:23 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 9/15/2020 8:10 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 9/15/2020 7:49 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:13:13 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

**** I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
** It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses.* Too
expensive?
*** By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA

I've been to a house in Dover, Del. with geothermal heating and cooling.
Not a cheap h ouse but no mansion either.* T hey seem to have removed
two new AC compressors in the process of installing the geothermal.


It is likely thqt the compressor characteristics would be different.
Certainly, temps are different than air source.

Actually, the heat pump requirements probably forced the change from AC
compressors.
Heat pump compressors ARE AC compressors - the sycle is just reversed
for heating. Matter of a rather simple valve

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:21:00 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 9/16/2020 8:47 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
lid says...

My housing development down here in south Mississippi is new, with
everything either built last year or this year. Each house has the ground
loop that you described. Down here, it almost never gets down to freezing,
so the systems seem to work pretty well.



I would think that in Mississippi it would be the oppsite. YOu do not
need to worry too much about heating, but more so with cooling and
humidity control. So better to have the coils in the cooler earth than
in the much hotter air.

I often see and understand how the efficiency of the heat pumps go down
when it gets cold and you need auxillary heat. I have never seen any
refference as to how to get extra cooling from the normal air installed
heat pumps. I am sure the gound loop system would be much more efficent
than the air system even in hot weather.

Air-exchange heat pumps are just conventional A/C units when reverse
valves for A/C.

And of course it's much less efficient to discharge the waste heat from
the A/C when ambient is 100F, just as it is harder to extract heat from
40 F air for heating.

The geothermal source/sink is much more nearly stable and if properly
sized can handle both cycles. With ours, the aux heat controls by
default would kick on with a 3 F setpoint mismatch to provide more
rapid warmup after an overnight setback in the morning, but we included
a cutout to prevent them from kicking on unless outside 20F and never
missed them.

The geothermal systems also can be set up to use waste heat on cooling
cycle as preheat for hot water that can cut that cost down noticeably in
cooling season as well. That's better in warmer climates, obviously.
Make good pool heaters too - --

On 9/16/2020 6:56 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:11:23 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 9/15/2020 8:10 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 9/15/2020 7:49 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:13:13 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

Â*Â*Â*Â* I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
Â*Â* It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses.Â* Too
expensive?
Â*Â*Â* By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA

I've been to a house in Dover, Del. with geothermal heating and cooling.
Not a cheap h ouse but no mansion either.Â* T hey seem to have removed
two new AC compressors in the process of installing the geothermal.


It is likely thqt the compressor characteristics would be different.
Certainly, temps are different than air source.

Actually, the heat pump requirements probably forced the change from AC
compressors.
Heat pump compressors ARE AC compressors - the sycle is just reversed
for heating. Matter of a rather simple valve


Is that what an AC guy would do? A simple valve, a matching control
board, a water based heat exchanger .....

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 16 Sep 2020 21:56:37 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 20:11:23 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 9/15/2020 8:10 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 9/15/2020 7:49 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:13:13 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

**** I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day.
He was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
** It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses.* Too
expensive?
*** By the way he can sing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peH8UGccbXA

I've been to a house in Dover, Del. with geothermal heating and cooling.
Not a cheap h ouse but no mansion either.* T hey seem to have removed
two new AC compressors in the process of installing the geothermal.

I don't know if they were AC or heatpump. We talked a lot more about
the geothermal than what had been removed.

I actually needed a new compressor and thought about renting a truck and
bringing it backto Baltimore. I wish I'd checked further if it would
have worked. If so, I would have saved a bunch of money. (the
cmpressor was free to me.)


It is likely thqt the compressor characteristics would be different.
Certainly, temps are different than air source.

Actually, the heat pump requirements probably forced the change from AC
compressors.
Heat pump compressors ARE AC compressors - the sycle is just reversed
for heating. Matter of a rather simple valve

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:56:45 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
Heat pump compressors ARE AC compressors - the sycle is just reversed
for heating. Matter of a rather simple valve

It turns out to be a lot more complicated than that.

I remember when heat pumps were first rolled out in our area. Like you said, they were just AC units with a reversing valve.

And they didn't work for crap, and at least where I was living they created such a bad impression nobody would consider a heat pump for at least a decade. To design one that functions in either AC or heat is easy. But one that does both is a totally different animal.

On 9/17/2020 11:42 AM, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:56:45 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
Heat pump compressors ARE AC compressors - the sycle is just reversed
for heating. Matter of a rather simple valve

It turns out to be a lot more complicated than that.

I remember when heat pumps were first rolled out in our area. Like you said, they were just AC units with a reversing valve.

And they didn't work for crap, and at least where I was living they created such a bad impression nobody would consider a heat pump for at least a decade. To design one that functions in either AC or heat is easy. But one that does both is a totally different animal.

That what I have been suggesting also. The optimizations should vary
significantly due to the 2 way operating modes and corresponding
temperatures/pressures at both ends, which especially vary between air
source and ground source systems. Heat exchanger sizes probably vary also.

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:56:45 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
Heat pump compressors ARE AC compressors - the sycle is just reversed
for heating. Matter of a rather simple valve

It turns out to be a lot more complicated than that.

I remember when heat pumps were first rolled out in our area. Like you said, they were just AC units with a reversing valve.

And they didn't work for crap,

When was this?

and at least where I was living they created such a bad impression nobody would consider a heat pump for at least a decade.

And when was this?

To design one that functions in either AC or heat is easy. But one that does both is a totally different animal.

On 9/17/2020 3:44 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:56:45 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
Heat pump compressors ARE AC compressors - the sycle is just reversed
for heating. Matter of a rather simple valve

It turns out to be a lot more complicated than that.

I remember when heat pumps were first rolled out in our area. Like you said, they were just AC units with a reversing valve.

And they didn't work for crap,

When was this?

....

Back in late '50s/early-mid '60s. '70s were starting to get pretty
decent, but were still a lot of sorry manufacturers hadn't been weeded
out of the marketplace yet.

Top of the line units by then would be reasonable (still not what would
be considered "good" now), but serviceable.

The TN house built in '78 had middle-the-road unit at the time; it was
serviceable initially but we replaced it with the geothermal unit
probably by about year 10...by then it was pretty-much shot.

I forget the specific brand now; name, but not highest quality unit
could have gotten. Then again, they would have been at least 1.5X if
not 2X the initial cost.

Most units installed were probably middle to lower end; in tract housing
or new developments, probably the cheapest the developer could find.
That likely contributed to the above experience as well.

--


--

On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:56:45 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
Heat pump compressors ARE AC compressors - the sycle is just reversed
for heating. Matter of a rather simple valve

It turns out to be a lot more complicated than that.

I remember when heat pumps were first rolled out in our area. Like you said, they were just AC units with a reversing valve.

And they didn't work for crap, and at least where I was living they created such a bad impression nobody would consider a heat pump for at least a decade. To design one that functions in either AC or heat is easy. But one that does both is a totally different animal.


But basically it is still just a reversible AC unit. Nothing changed
in the basics, Bettwer valves, and better optimnization but they still
use the same compressor in modern heat pumps that they use in modern
AC units - and in air to air systems many ARE identical units, except
for the valving and controls.

A lot of "fine tuning" on ground source units, for sure.

On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 16:44:57 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:56:45 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
Heat pump compressors ARE AC compressors - the sycle is just reversed
for heating. Matter of a rather simple valve

It turns out to be a lot more complicated than that.

I remember when heat pumps were first rolled out in our area. Like you said, they were just AC units with a reversing valve.

And they didn't work for crap,

When was this?

and at least where I was living they created such a bad impression nobody would consider a heat pump for at least a decade.

And when was this?

To design one that functions in either AC or heat is easy. But one that does both is a totally different animal.


About 1975 or '76 - before Hatherton and his associates got in on the
qction (in 1978?)

On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 16:37:27 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 9/17/2020 3:44 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:56:45 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
Heat pump compressors ARE AC compressors - the sycle is just reversed
for heating. Matter of a rather simple valve

It turns out to be a lot more complicated than that.

I remember when heat pumps were first rolled out in our area. Like you said, they were just AC units with a reversing valve.

And they didn't work for crap,

When was this?

...

Back in late '50s/early-mid '60s. '70s were starting to get pretty
decent, but were still a lot of sorry manufacturers hadn't been weeded
out of the marketplace yet.

Top of the line units by then would be reasonable (still not what would
be considered "good" now), but serviceable.

The TN house built in '78 had middle-the-road unit at the time; it was
serviceable initially but we replaced it with the geothermal unit
probably by about year 10...by then it was pretty-much shot.

I forget the specific brand now; name, but not highest quality unit
could have gotten. Then again, they would have been at least 1.5X if
not 2X the initial cost.

Most units installed were probably middle to lower end; in tract housing
or new developments, probably the cheapest the developer could find.
That likely contributed to the above experience as well.

--
Definitely

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 5:37:36 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 9/17/2020 3:44 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 17 Sep 2020 11:42:10 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 9:56:45 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
Heat pump compressors ARE AC compressors - the sycle is just reversed
for heating. Matter of a rather simple valve

It turns out to be a lot more complicated than that.

I remember when heat pumps were first rolled out in our area. Like you said, they were just AC units with a reversing valve.

And they didn't work for crap,

When was this?

...

Back in late '50s/early-mid '60s. '70s were starting to get pretty
decent, but were still a lot of sorry manufacturers hadn't been weeded
out of the marketplace yet.


50s through 70s were difficult for heat pumps. Although, we old timers do remember those years but some of our memories have faded a bit.

Then the oil/energy crisis hit and a lot of things changed. There was more attention to efficiency in general, and insulation and envelope sealing against infiltration. Both of those had an effect on heat pump acceptance I think, and by the 80s they were doing well. In my faulty memory.

There was another factor. Heat pumps in residential were forced air systems, of course. (some of us grew up with only radiant heat and no AC at all) A furnace put out a blast of perceptably hot air, while a heat pump by comparison was much cooler. Friends of mine in Wisconsin said they would never have a heat pump because they didn't want cold air blowing. That seemed strange to me, either one gets the room to 73 or so, but they liked the feel of that hotter blast.

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 18:50:11 -0500, dpb posted for all of us to digest...


On 9/15/2020 5:13 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
*** I was watching the Dirty Jobs show with Mike Rowe the other day. He
was helping well drillers sink wells for a heat pump system for
something like an old folks home.
* It occurred to me that I haven't heard of any for plain houses.* Too
expensive?
...

We put in ground loop geothermal system in the house in TN to replace
the original air-exchange heat pump. Not a well, but 7-8 ft trench with
heat transfer loop tubing at bottom and about halfway.

NG not available and didn't want the big tank. With a thermal switch to
ensure the aux electric heat didn't come on unless outside temp 20 F,
it had great performance and payback compared to the older heat pump
about 4 years.

That was retrofit so excavation costs were a fair amount more than would
have been if had done when doing the excavations for basement and septic
when the house was built.

I'm sold on concept...

Ours was Water Furnace brand/manufacturer. We were there 7-8 years
after doing it and now been back to farm 20 years. Last I knew, it was
still going strong although that's about 3 years now since we stopped in
and met the folks after the folks after the folks we sold to.

We didn't do it because the layout inside the house wasn't amenable, but
one can get much cheaper hot water during cooling season from the exit
side waste heat as an additional payback mechanism.

Our municipal building has a Water Furnace heat pump and it works fine after 30
some years. Never recall a day where it didn't work.

--
Tekkie