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Cool Me Down
Rod Speed wrote:
ASHRAE says 88.2 F and w = 0.012 is comfy... Pity it says that higher humiditys aint. Just reality, based on surveying 21,000 people. The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort spec says a person in summer clothing is equally comfy at 77 F and 50% RH without a fan and 82 F and 50% RH with a 200 fpm fan. So your original at the top is a complete dud. You appear to be ignorant, my good man. The ASHRAE comfort zone is a box in the temp/hum plane with 4 corners defining "slight discomfort" (Y = +/-0.5)... 88.2 and 0.012 is the upper right corner... 77 F and 50% RH is in the center, with Y = 0 ("comfy.") If you really want to get extreme then you can build yourself a box with lots of insulation... say 4'x8'x4' tall, with 1" double-foil "R7" foamboard sides and a layer of water instead of ice on top, over a layer of polyethylene film over welded-wire fencing... Pity there is bugger all buyable at anything like that $100. You are incorrect, my good man. The foamboard costs $33. Add 7 $2 2x4 studs, $3 worth of fencing and $2 worth of poly film. About $36, after subtracting the cost of the usual posts and mosquito netting, with manual controls. Or less, with some local value engineering. If it's 120 F with a 76.5 F WBT, keeping the bedchamber 88.2 F with w = 0.012 and a C cfm chamber airflow requires that 1000x60C0.075(0.012-0.015) = 6.75C + (82.2-76.5)C = 253 + 96ft^2/R7, so C = 55 cfm. The internal chamber water consumption would be 60x55x0.075(0.012-0.0105) = 0.374 gpm or 0.045 gph. With Pw = 0.1367 and Pa = 0.5663 and 374 = 100A(Pw-Pa), we need A = 4.67 ft^2 of internal evaporation surface, eg a shallow pool on another layer of poly film under the wet bulb canopy, with a solenoid valve in series with an 88.2 F cooling thermostat and a 56% dehumidistat in series with the fan. Pity there is bugger all buyable at anything like that $100. Scrounge the solenoid from an old washer, add a $5 used muffin fan, a $10 line voltage thermostat and Herbach and Rademan's ((800) 848-8001 http://www.herbach.com) fine $4.95 Navy surplus humidistat, item number TM89HVC5203, with a 20-80% range, a 3-6% differential, and a 7.5A 125V switch that can be wired to open or close on humidity rise. A motorized damper would be a nice alternative to the fan. Also cheap, but a bit harder to contrive. Some people live off the grid He doesnt. Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? :-) Others really are desperately poor, especially in hot parts of the world. There problem... Would your grammar exceed your compassion? Nick |
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wrote in message ... Rod Speed wrote wrote Rod Speed wrote: Where does the OP live? Evaporation works in any climate with an RH less than 100%. Not very comfortable at the higher humiditys tho. ASHRAE says 88.2 F and w = 0.012 is comfy... Pity it says that higher humiditys aint. Just reality, based on surveying 21,000 people. A reality that is nothing like your original. My suggestion is to get an AC. Small window units are available for around $100 new (sometimes less)... I noticed $53 for 5000 Btu/h at a local WalMart. Yeah, generally not a bad idea if the main problem is sleeping. You might stay 80 F in a 4'x8'x4' R7 bedchamber in a 100 F room with 253+(100-80)(15+96ft^2/R7) = 827 Btu/h, 81 watts with a COP of 3... A ceiling fan will also help as they can drop the perceived temp another 3 or 4 degrees F. The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort spec says a person in summer clothing is equally comfy at 77 F and 50% RH without a fan and 82 F and 50% RH with a 200 fpm fan. So your original at the top is a complete dud. You appear to be ignorant, my good man. You are a pathetic excuse for a bull**** artist, you terminal ****wit. The ASHRAE comfort zone is a box in the temp/hum plane with 4 corners defining "slight discomfort" (Y = +/-0.5)... 88.2 and 0.012 is the upper right corner... 77 F and 50% RH is in the center, with Y = 0 ("comfy.") STILL nothing like that crap of yours right at the top which is a complete dud. If you really want to get extreme then you can build yourself a box with lots of insulation... say 4'x8'x4' tall, with 1" double-foil "R7" foamboard sides and a layer of water instead of ice on top, over a layer of polyethylene film over welded-wire fencing... Pity there is bugger all buyable at anything like that $100. You are incorrect, my good man. We'll see, you pathethic excuse for a bull**** artist. The foamboard costs $33. Add 7 $2 2x4 studs, $3 worth of fencing and $2 worth of poly film. About $36, after subtracting the cost of the usual posts and mosquito netting, with manual controls. Or less, with some local value engineering. Thats no commercial product, you pathetic excuse for a bull**** artist. Apples and oranges. If it's 120 F with a 76.5 F WBT, keeping the bedchamber 88.2 F with w = 0.012 and a C cfm chamber airflow requires that 1000x60C0.075(0.012-0.015) = 6.75C + (82.2-76.5)C = 253 + 96ft^2/R7, so C = 55 cfm. The internal chamber water consumption would be 60x55x0.075(0.012-0.0105) = 0.374 gpm or 0.045 gph. With Pw = 0.1367 and Pa = 0.5663 and 374 = 100A(Pw-Pa), we need A = 4.67 ft^2 of internal evaporation surface, eg a shallow pool on another layer of poly film under the wet bulb canopy, with a solenoid valve in series with an 88.2 F cooling thermostat and a 56% dehumidistat in series with the fan. Pity there is bugger all buyable at anything like that $100. Scrounge the solenoid from an old washer, add a $5 used muffin fan, a $10 line voltage thermostat and Herbach and Rademan's ((800) 848-8001 http://www.herbach.com) fine $4.95 Navy surplus humidistat, item number TM89HVC5203, with a 20-80% range, a 3-6% differential, and a 7.5A 125V switch that can be wired to open or close on humidity rise. A motorized damper would be a nice alternative to the fan. Also cheap, but a bit harder to contrive. Apples and oranges again when compared with a cheap room airconditioner or fan. You can make the fan frrom scrounged components too. And buy a small room airconditioner second hand too. Or scrounge one of those for next to nothing too. Some people live off the grid He doesnt. Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? :-) His location is in the sig of his original post, fool. Others really are desperately poor, especially in hot parts of the world. There problem... Would your grammar exceed your compassion? Pathetic, really. Even you should be able to do better than that, child. |
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wrote in message ... Christopher A. Steele wrote: Sometimes it gets so hot around here it's difficult to sleep at night (to the point I sometimes have to get up two or three times to cool off in the shower just to get comfortable for a few minutes). Sir Turtle might suggest a space heater to raise the room temp to 95 F, which he describes as "too cold," vs 60 F ("too hot" :-) I'm curious: given 'x' ambient temperature in my bedroom at night (and 'y' relative humidity, I suppose) and closed bedroom windows and doors, how do I calculate the amount of heat (heat load??) that has to be 'removed' from my body so that I can sleep comfortably... An ASHRAE-standard 154 pound human dissipates 253 Btu/h when sleeping. Is there a formula? Sure. ASHRAE-standard 55-2004 ("Thermal environmental conditions for human occupancy") defines two "comfort zones," winter (with a clo = 1 clothing thermal resistance) and summer (clo = 0.5.) Its BASIC program estimates the Predicted Mean Vote (PMV: +3 hot, +2 warm, +1 slightly warm, 0 neutral, -1 slightly cool, -2 cool, and -3 cold) and the Predicted Percentage Dissatisfied (PPD) based on clothing, activity, metabolic rate, external work, air temp, mean radiant temp, air velocity, and RH... 50 CLO = 1'clothing insulation (clo) 60 MET=1.1'metabolic rate (met) 70 WME=0'external work (met) 80 TA=19.6'air temp (C) 90 TR=19.6'mean radiant temp (C) 100 VEL=.1'air velocity (m/s) 120 RH=86'relative humidity (%) make one of RH or PA non-zero... 130 PA=0'water vapor pressure 140 DEF FNPS(T)=EXP(16.6536-4030.183/(TA+235))'sat vapor pressure, kPa 150 IF PA=0 THEN PA=RH*10*FNPS(TA)'water vapor pressure, Pa 160 ICL=.155*CLO'clothing resistance (m^2K/W) 170 M=MET*58.15'metabolic rate (W/m^2) 180 W=WME*58.15'external work in (W/m^2) 190 MW=M-W'internal heat production 200 IF ICL.078 THEN FCL=1+1.29*ICL ELSE FCL=1.05+.645*ICL'clothing factor 210 HCF=12.1*SQR(VEL)'forced convection conductance 220 TAA=TA+273'air temp (K) 230 TRA=TR+273'mean radiant temp (K) 250 TCLA=TAA+(35.5-TA)/(3.5*(6.45*ICL+.1))'est clothing temp 260 P1=ICL*FCL:P2=P1*3.96:P3=P1*100:P4=P1*TAA'intermed iate values 300 P5=308.7-.028*MW+P2*(TRA/100)^4 310 XN=TCLA/100 320 XF=XN 330 N=0'number of iterations 340 EPS=.00015'stop iteration when met 350 XF=(XF+XN)/2'natural convection conductance 360 HCN=2.38*ABS(100*XF-TAA)^.25 370 IF HCFHCN THEN HC=HCF ELSE HC=HCN 380 XN=(P5+P4*HC-P2*XF^4)/(100+P3*HC) 390 N=N+1 400 IF N150 GOTO 550 410 IF ABS(XN-XF)EPS GOTO 350 420 TCL=100*XN-273'clothing surface temp (C) 440 HL1=.00305*(5733-6.99*MW-PA)'heat loss diff through skin 450 IF MW58.15 THEN HL2=.42*(MW-58.15) ELSE HL2=0'heat loss by sweating 460 HL3=.000017*M*(5867-PA)'latent respiration heat loss 470 HL4=.0014*M*(34-TA)'dry respiration heat loss 480 HL5=3.96*FCL*(XN^4-(TRA/100)^4)'heat loss by radiation 490 HL6=FCL*HC*(TCL-TA)'heat loss by convection 510 TS=.303*EXP(-.036*M)+.028'thermal sensation transfer coefficient 520 PMV=TS*(MW-HL1-HL2-HL3-HL4-HL5-HL6)'predicted mean vote 530 PPD=100-95*EXP(-.03353*PMV^4-.2179*PMV^2)'predicted % dissatisfied 540 GOTO 580 550 PMV=99999!:PPD=100 580 PRINT TA,RH,CLO,PMV,PPD T (C) RH clo PMV PPD 19.6 86 1 -.4778556 9.769089 23.9 66 1 .4732535 9.676994 25.7 15 1 .5239881 10.74283 21.2 20 1 -.4779105 9.770202 23.6 67 .5 -.4747404 9.706658 26.8 56 .5 .5145492 10.53611 27.9 13 .5 .5003051 10.23146 24.7 16 .5 -.4883473 9.982468 The first 4 lines are the winter comfort zone corners. The second 4 lines are the summer comfort zone corners. An average person is "comfortable" when the PMV = 0. "Travis Jordan" writes: The ASHRAE calculations for heat gain assume 600 BTU/H per person. That's 150 calories / hour. That works for large Btus. mj writes: Being uncomfortable typically has more to due with humidity than temperature... The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort zone disagrees, based on surveys of 21,000 people. Nick This is Turtle. if you can't explain %RH as to temperature that most people likes , you just explaining what you think and have no ideal of the real world is thinking. You sure quote the ASHRAE a lot but I wished you could understand it in real life terms. Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think and don't try to justify your reply with references but explain it in real life terms. Nick you live in a book and if I took your book away from you. You would be speechless. TURTLE |
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On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 01:11:03 -0500, "TURTLE"
wrote: wrote in message ... Christopher A. Steele wrote: life terms. Nick you live in a book and if I took your book away from you. You would be speechless. TURTLE Oh, by all means, take it away ! take it away !!!! Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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TURTLE wrote:
Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Nick |
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wrote in message ... TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Nick This is Turtle. Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. Shut the Books up and get out and go see the system that are running and get a Clue as to what is comforteriable or not. TURTLE |
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Sir TURTLE wrote:
Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick |
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On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote: In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? Here is where statistics fail. which 21,000 people? Is the target random and unbiased? It is not! Only paramaters will do. Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will). On some days, I can be quite comfortable at 90 deg F and 70% RH, yet on other days, I am sweltering 83 deg F and 60% RH or lower, AT THE SAME ACTIVITY LEVEL! It naturally follows that sometimes I am ectstatic at 40 F and 90 to 95% RH, while other times 50 deg F at 50% RH is too cold for me. IOW, your mood, health, etc also comes into play. Statistics just don't cut it. This is why the comfort zones are based partly on parametric data, as opposed to purely statistical data. I think Nick is right. Your mileage may vary. -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info ~~~~~~~~ The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining - JFK ~~~~~~~~ |
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In article ,
~^Johnny^~ wrote: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? Here is where statistics fail. which 21,000 people? Is the target random and unbiased? It is not! Only paramaters will do. Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will). On some days, I can be quite comfortable at 90 deg F and 70% RH, yet on other days, I am sweltering 83 deg F and 60% RH or lower, AT THE SAME ACTIVITY LEVEL! It naturally follows that sometimes I am ectstatic at 40 F and 90 to 95% RH, while other times 50 deg F at 50% RH is too cold for me. IOW, your mood, health, etc also comes into play. Statistics just don't cut it. This is why the comfort zones are based partly on parametric data, as opposed to purely statistical data. I think Nick is right. Your mileage may vary. -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info ~~~~~~~~ The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining - JFK ~~~~~~~~ I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? |
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On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:03:36 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote: In article , ~^Johnny^~ wrote: I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. The same thing that goes througha bugs mind right before it splatters on the windshield ..... His ass. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? You could quite easily put together a selection of MILLIONS of people around the world who think running water, sanitation, refrigeration and electricity are 'luxuries for the elite'. I find it an unpersuasive factoid. Hell, I read a poll the other day that says based on 34,000 people around the world ( not in the USA ), they **overwhelmingly** don't want GWB re-elected. Now, let's stop to ponder a minute here ..... whos best interests do they have at heart ? OURS or THEIRS ???? Hmmmmm....... Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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In article ,
wrote: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:03:36 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , ~^Johnny^~ wrote: I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. The same thing that goes througha bugs mind right before it splatters on the windshield ..... His ass. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? You could quite easily put together a selection of MILLIONS of people around the world who think running water, sanitation, refrigeration and electricity are 'luxuries for the elite'. I find it an unpersuasive factoid. Hell, I read a poll the other day that says based on 34,000 people around the world ( not in the USA ), they **overwhelmingly** don't want GWB re-elected. Now, let's stop to ponder a minute here ..... whos best interests do they have at heart ? OURS or THEIRS ???? Hmmmmm....... Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ Okay I find your rant(s against nick) amusing, but I doubt that the same motivations apply in regards to re-electing bush as to what constitutes a comfortable temperature/humidity factor. |
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On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:13:18 -0700, Robert Morein
wrote: In article , wrote: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:03:36 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , ~^Johnny^~ wrote: I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. The same thing that goes througha bugs mind right before it splatters on the windshield ..... His ass. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? You could quite easily put together a selection of MILLIONS of people around the world who think running water, sanitation, refrigeration and electricity are 'luxuries for the elite'. I find it an unpersuasive factoid. Hell, I read a poll the other day that says based on 34,000 people around the world ( not in the USA ), they **overwhelmingly** don't want GWB re-elected. Now, let's stop to ponder a minute here ..... whos best interests do they have at heart ? OURS or THEIRS ???? Hmmmmm....... Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ Okay I find your rant(s against nick) amusing, but I doubt that the same motivations apply in regards to re-electing bush as to what constitutes a comfortable temperature/humidity factor. No, but the polls referenced are as meaningful to each respective question - IE - not at all. What 21,000 or 34,000 people, living elsewhere in the world, think of either 'what should be an acceptable level of comfort' to me, or 'what this country should do, who should lead it, etc ' are equally irrelevant to me. Their opinions on either topic are not of interest to me. You gotta admit, though - Nicks comparison of a newsgroup charter to the US Constitution pretty much takes the prize .... Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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Robert Morein wrote: In article , ~^Johnny^~ wrote: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? Here is where statistics fail. which 21,000 people? Is the target random and unbiased? It is not! Only paramaters will do. Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will). On some days, I can be quite comfortable at 90 deg F and 70% RH, yet on other days, I am sweltering 83 deg F and 60% RH or lower, AT THE SAME ACTIVITY LEVEL! It naturally follows that sometimes I am ectstatic at 40 F and 90 to 95% RH, while other times 50 deg F at 50% RH is too cold for me. IOW, your mood, health, etc also comes into play. Statistics just don't cut it. This is why the comfort zones are based partly on parametric data, as opposed to purely statistical data. I think Nick is right. Your mileage may vary. -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info ~~~~~~~~ The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining - JFK ~~~~~~~~ I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count? |
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"Robert Morein" wrote in message ... In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? In a properly done study, they most likely would. One would have to look into other factors such as whether there were significant differences based on nation or region or prevalence of air conditioning in those regions compared to where you live. If the study was done properly, then it's reasonable to assume that it will reflect the tastes of a typical person. But I'm not the OP and I didn't read the study. |
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:42:54 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote: "Robert Morein" wrote in message ... In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? In a properly done study, they most likely would. No way, no how. NO survey of 'people from around the world' is going to reflect AMERICAN standards and preferences, any more than an identical durvey of Americans will reflect the standards and preferences prevalent in other countries. One would have to look into other factors such as whether there were significant differences based on nation or region or prevalence of air conditioning in those regions compared to where you live. If the study was done properly, then it's reasonable to assume that it will reflect the tastes of a typical person. But I'm not the OP and I didn't read the study. Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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"~^Johnny^~" wrote in message ... On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? Here is where statistics fail. which 21,000 people? Is the target random and unbiased? It is not! Only paramaters will do. Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will). It's not that the statistics fail. It's that they often get misused. But if a competent engineer or scientist can figure out that failure by looking at the data, then it's not that the statistics failed, but they were misapplied, or accurate but irrelevant. Bill Gates walks into a bar and a patron says to his buddy, "Congratulations. We're all rich." His buddy asks him why, and he responds, "The average person in this bar is now worth over a billion dollars." His statement is true statistically, but irrelevant. In a case like this, the relevant type of average would be the median and not the mean. A statistician could figure that out easily, and it should be obvious to everybody anyway. It's not that the statistics were wrong, but they were used wrong. |
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"Don Ocean" wrote in message ... I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count? If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of other factors. |
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Robert Morein wrote in message ...
But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? Who's gonna taste all 21,001 to find out? %mod% |
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Hagrinas Mivali wrote: "Don Ocean" wrote in message ... I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count? If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of other factors. I guess that would be like the Gun control thing.. Only Poll those that don't like guns.. ;-p Perhaps you should ask Harry Truman about Polls.. ;-p |
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:57:23 -0500, Don Ocean
wrote: Hagrinas Mivali wrote: "Don Ocean" wrote in message ... I love nicks answers, I can't imagine what goes thru his mind when he posts a page of figures to reach a point. But the question is valid: Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect nicks tastes? Ummmm? What about the other 6.5 Billion folks.. Don't they count? If the study were done properly, they would reflect those 6.5 billion folks on average quite well. What's relevant is whether the average is relevant to your area or to a group of people who are used to air conditioning to the same extent as you, or whose climate is similar to yours, and a bunch of other factors. I guess that would be like the Gun control thing.. Only Poll those that don't like guns.. ;-p Perhaps you should ask Harry Truman about Polls.. ;-p Didn't he die or something ? Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref's http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/ |
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wrote in message ... On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:47:23 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali" wrote: wrote in message .. . On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:42:54 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali" wrote: "Robert Morein" wrote in message ... In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? In a properly done study, they most likely would. No way, no how. NO survey of 'people from around the world' is going to reflect AMERICAN standards and preferences, any more than an identical durvey of Americans will reflect the standards and preferences prevalent in other countries. In that case, you don't understand how studies work. Bzzt. Wrong. No study of, for instance, the French, will indicate American standards, nor the other way around. For instance, here in America we take bath every day. And the French tend to bathe and shower more than Americans. But most Americans don't know that. It still has nothing to do with anything I said. Also, if you read what I wrote, I agreed completely that no study of the French would indicate American standards and a properly done study would show that. I said that in a properly done study, it would reflect your tastes. You said no way. So either you believe that a study can be proper (i.e. the conclusion is correct) but wrong at the same time, or your statement is wrong. Try not to spew nonsense, most especially if you're going to attribute it to me.. But it was your nonsense. I'd suggest you go to a college book store and buy an introduction to logic book. You can even take a course in it, and if you manage to get through it, we can continue this conversation. |
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:49:22 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote: "~^Johnny^~" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:08:41 -0700, Robert Morein wrote: In article , wrote: Sir TURTLE wrote: Here is one for you. 5%RH or there about and 90ºF = pretty cool. What do you think... I'd say hot. So would ASHRAE, (Y = 1.79, with 67% of people dissatisfied, vs Y = 0, with 6% dissatisfied), based on 21,000 people around the world, who'd prefer adding some moisture to reduce the air temp, which might come from a swimming pool :-) Imagine yourself in a 90 F office, in a dry shirt... Still you living out of a book and do not understand the part %RH plays in the comfort levels. I understand thoroughly, my good man. In this case, I'm afraid you are the one lacking average empirical understanding, and an understanding of the way surveys work. I would have 90ºF and a 10%RH in my home before I would have 60ºF with a 100%RH. OK. Everyone's tastes are different. There's nothing wrong with your misunderstanding average human behavior. It's a matter of surveys and preferences, vs absolute science. But you must admit facts. It's hard to deny the average tastes of 21,000 people around the world :-) Nick Do those 21,000 people from around the world reflect your tastes? Here is where statistics fail. which 21,000 people? Is the target random and unbiased? It is not! Only paramaters will do. Statistics are, statistically, on a bias. g Their results are slanted. They can err on many facets (sides, if you will). It's not that the statistics fail. It's that they often get misused. But if a competent engineer or scientist can figure out that failure by looking at the data, then it's not that the statistics failed, but they were misapplied, or accurate but irrelevant. I stand corrected. -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info |
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On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:57:41 -0700, "Hagrinas Mivali"
wrote: Also, if you read what I wrote, I agreed completely that no study of the French would indicate American standards and a properly done study would show that. American Standard fixtures in an Elizabethan household. Now that's a thought. Could cut down on odor... -- -john wide-open at throttle dot info ~~~~~~~~ "When the world was flat as a pancake, Mona Lisa was happy as a clam." - John Prine ~~~~~~~~ |
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