How is it that an 18 AWG conductor is allowed to power 10 120 volt light bulbs?
Am I missing something or is this just crazy?

On 5/27/19 4:14 PM, Molly Brown wrote:
How is it that an 18 AWG conductor is allowed to power 10 120 volt light bulbs?
Am I missing something or is this just crazy?

What are you looking at, specifically? LEDs don't put much
load on the
circuits powering them. It's the load, (amperage) that determines wire
size.

How many watts? If they are 75w,that's just 6 amps, doesn't sound bad.

On 5/27/19 4:14 PM, Molly Brown wrote:
How is it that an 18 AWG conductor is allowed to power 10 120 volt light bulbs?
Am I missing something or is this just crazy?

It should work if the average light bulb is using no more than 500mA (60W).

--
"Real freedom lies in wildness, not in civilization." -- Charles
Lindbergh

On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 4:14:09 PM UTC-5, Molly Brown wrote:
How is it that an 18 AWG conductor is allowed to power 10
120 volt light bulbs? Am I missing something or is this just crazy?

This is simply a 6' line cord? Total wattage being what?

On 5/27/2019 4:14 PM, Molly Brown wrote:
How is it that an 18 AWG conductor is allowed to power 10 120 volt light bulbs?
Am I missing something or is this just crazy?

Missing something, probably...

18 AWG ampacity is 10A (50 ft) so 10 * 100W/120V -- 8+ A

--

On 5/27/19 5:14 PM, Molly Brown wrote:
How is it that an 18 AWG conductor is allowed to power 10 120 volt light bulbs?
Am I missing something or is this just crazy?

Nah, affirmative action conduction has come to electrical engineering ;-)

--
Ever notice the shortage of "armed law-abiding citizen€� victim tragedy
stories in the news?

On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 6:09:38 PM UTC-4, Davej wrote:
On Monday, May 27, 2019 at 4:14:09 PM UTC-5, Molly Brown wrote:
How is it that an 18 AWG conductor is allowed to power 10
120 volt light bulbs? Am I missing something or is this just crazy?

This is simply a 6' line cord? Total wattage being what?

If one puts ten light bulbs of 75w or 100w on the end of a 6 ft cord
that's going to be a hell of a lot of light in one place, isn't it?
I'm thinking maybe it's a string of old Edison lights or similar hanging
along a longer run and they are probably 75W max.

On Mon, 27 May 2019 14:14:04 -0700 (PDT), Molly Brown
wrote:

How is it that an 18 AWG conductor is allowed to power 10 120 volt light bulbs?
Am I missing something or is this just crazy?
how many watts? the 18 wire is good for 640 watts at 120 volts (7
amps) so 10 60 watt bulbs is the practical limit

On Mon, 27 May 2019 14:14:04 -0700 (PDT), Molly Brown
wrote:

How is it that an 18 AWG conductor is allowed to power 10 120 volt light bulbs?
Am I missing something or is this just crazy?

Here in Australia you are allowed to put up to (I think) 10
electrical outlets rated at 10A on a 20A rated cable. The Standard
just assumes most of these outlets won't be in use at the full 10A
current at any one time, so there is zero chance that 200A will go
down the 20A cable. In any case the 20A cable is protected by a 20A
circuit breaker.

I should imagine the 18AWG lighting circuit conductor is protected by
a correctly sized fuse or circuit breaker, and in any case probably
most of the lights won't be on together anyway.

Ross

On Tue, 28 May 2019 04:33:35 GMT, lid (RMD) wrote:

On Mon, 27 May 2019 14:14:04 -0700 (PDT), Molly Brown
wrote:

How is it that an 18 AWG conductor is allowed to power 10 120 volt light bulbs?
Am I missing something or is this just crazy?

Here in Australia you are allowed to put up to (I think) 10
electrical outlets rated at 10A on a 20A rated cable. The Standard
just assumes most of these outlets won't be in use at the full 10A
current at any one time, so there is zero chance that 200A will go
down the 20A cable. In any case the 20A cable is protected by a 20A
circuit breaker.

I should imagine the 18AWG lighting circuit conductor is protected by
a correctly sized fuse or circuit breaker, and in any case probably
most of the lights won't be on together anyway.

Ross
Not so. The circuit in North America will be protected by either a 15
or 20 amp breaker. The 18 guage wire will be a roughly six foot cord
on a lamp.Noth american cords are not fused like many euro and
Australian plugs. The lamp will have numerous bulbs in it - often it
will be a chandelier with candellebra bulbs of 40 to 60 watts. Very
uncommon for any other situation to have 10 bulbs other than
decorative string lighting which are also generally 40-60 watt bulbs.
In all these cases all bulbs would most likely be lit together.

If someone is worried the cord may be overloaded it is a simple matter
to replace the incandescent bulbs with LEDs at about 1/10th the power
consumption for the same light output.

In North America "premise wiring" - wiring permanently installed in a
structure, for lighting circuits operation on 120 volts are MINIMUM
14AWG. There is no other (lighter) cabling certified for premise
wiring installation in Canad or the USA and circuits are protected by
a minimum 15 amp fuse or breaker, There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.
Devices MAY have internal fuse or breaker protection - usually
appliances - most commonly electronic devices. Motorized devices and
heating devices often have thermal protection - but VERY FEW lighting
devices have any protection built in at all.

"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 May 2019 04:33:35 GMT, lid (RMD) wrote:

On Mon, 27 May 2019 14:14:04 -0700 (PDT), Molly Brown
wrote:

How is it that an 18 AWG conductor is allowed to power 10 120 volt light
bulbs?
Am I missing something or is this just crazy?

Here in Australia you are allowed to put up to (I think) 10
electrical outlets rated at 10A on a 20A rated cable. The Standard
just assumes most of these outlets won't be in use at the full 10A
current at any one time, so there is zero chance that 200A will go
down the 20A cable. In any case the 20A cable is protected by a 20A
circuit breaker.

I should imagine the 18AWG lighting circuit conductor is protected by
a correctly sized fuse or circuit breaker, and in any case probably
most of the lights won't be on together anyway.

Not so. The circuit in North America will be protected by either a 15
or 20 amp breaker. The 18 guage wire will be a roughly six foot cord
on a lamp.Noth american cords are not fused like many euro and
Australian plugs.

No Australian plugs are fused.

The lamp will have numerous bulbs in it - often it
will be a chandelier with candellebra bulbs of 40 to 60 watts. Very
uncommon for any other situation to have 10 bulbs other than
decorative string lighting which are also generally 40-60 watt bulbs.
In all these cases all bulbs would most likely be lit together.

If someone is worried the cord may be overloaded it is a simple matter
to replace the incandescent bulbs with LEDs at about 1/10th the power
consumption for the same light output.

In North America "premise wiring" - wiring permanently installed in a
structure, for lighting circuits operation on 120 volts are MINIMUM
14AWG. There is no other (lighter) cabling certified for premise
wiring installation in Canad or the USA and circuits are protected by
a minimum 15 amp fuse or breaker, There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.
Devices MAY have internal fuse or breaker protection - usually
appliances - most commonly electronic devices. Motorized devices and
heating devices often have thermal protection - but VERY FEW lighting
devices have any protection built in at all.

On Tue, 28 May 2019 19:56:30 +1000, billj, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

Not so. The circuit in North America will be protected by either a 15
or 20 amp breaker. The 18 guage wire will be a roughly six foot cord
on a lamp.Noth american cords are not fused like many euro and
Australian plugs.

No Australian plugs are fused.

LOL Found another opportunity to auto-contradict, you senile asshole?

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

On 5/28/19 2:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.

More bull****!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...Q110/206632124

On 5/27/19 7:20 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
--
Ever notice the shortage of "armed law-abiding citizen€� victim tragedy stories in the news?

Yes, the democrats are out to destroy the US...which is why I'll never ever vote for a democrat.

On Tue, 28 May 2019 06:08:29 -0400, bull****
wrote:

On 5/28/19 2:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.

More bull****!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...Q110/206632124
None approved for Canadian installation.

American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...

"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."

This MAY allow for a 10 amp breaker to protect a particular hard
wired/exclusive circuit such as a dish-washer or garburetor -
Generally speaking "device protection" breakers, as differentiated
from "circuit protection" breakers are installed in or at the
protected device rather than in the panel.

Seimens ans Square D APPEAR to be the only source for 10 amp breakers
and they are not (as far as I can determine) available in Canada. Not
available from my electrical wholesalers.

On 5/27/19 5:49 PM, dpb wrote:
On 5/27/2019 4:14 PM, Molly Brown wrote:
How is it that an 18 AWG conductor is allowed to power 10Â* 120 volt
light bulbs?
Am I missing something or is this just crazy?

Missing something, probably...

18 AWG ampacity is 10A (50 ft) so 10 * 100W/120V -- 8+ A

I thought that was 16. 18 should be more like 5A.

--
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for
every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect." -- James Madison
(1751-1836), letter to William Bradford, Jr., January 24, 1774

On Tue, 28 May 2019 11:24:04 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 28 May 2019 06:08:29 -0400, bull****
wrote:

On 5/28/19 2:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.

More bull****!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...Q110/206632124
None approved for Canadian installation.

American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...

"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."

This MAY allow for a 10 amp breaker to protect a particular hard
wired/exclusive circuit such as a dish-washer or garburetor -
Generally speaking "device protection" breakers, as differentiated
from "circuit protection" breakers are installed in or at the
protected device rather than in the panel.

Seimens ans Square D APPEAR to be the only source for 10 amp breakers
and they are not (as far as I can determine) available in Canada. Not
available from my electrical wholesalers.

10 amp breakers are specifically for alarm circuits, not general
lighting circuits.
18ga is good for 10a in a 2 wire cable or 7a if there are 3 current
carrying conductors in a cable..

On 5/28/19 11:24 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 06:08:29 -0400, bull****
wrote:

On 5/28/19 2:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.
More bull****!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...Q110/206632124
None approved for Canadian installation.

American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...

"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."

This MAY allow for a 10 amp breaker to protect a particular hard
wired/exclusive circuit such as a dish-washer or garburetor -
Generally speaking "device protection" breakers, as differentiated
from "circuit protection" breakers are installed in or at the
protected device rather than in the panel.

Seimens ans Square D APPEAR to be the only source for 10 amp breakers
and they are not (as far as I can determine) available in Canada. Not
available from my electrical wholesalers.

blah blah blah

writes:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 11:24:04 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 28 May 2019 06:08:29 -0400, bull****
wrote:

On 5/28/19 2:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.

More bull****!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...Q110/206632124
None approved for Canadian installation.

American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...

"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."

This MAY allow for a 10 amp breaker to protect a particular hard
wired/exclusive circuit such as a dish-washer or garburetor -
Generally speaking "device protection" breakers, as differentiated
from "circuit protection" breakers are installed in or at the
protected device rather than in the panel.

Seimens ans Square D APPEAR to be the only source for 10 amp breakers
and they are not (as far as I can determine) available in Canada. Not
available from my electrical wholesalers.

10 amp breakers are specifically for alarm circuits, not general
lighting circuits.

And for monitoring circuits (e.g. on solar panal arrays).

On 5/28/19 4:18 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 11:24:04 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 28 May 2019 06:08:29 -0400, bull****
wrote:

On 5/28/19 2:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.
More bull****!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...Q110/206632124
None approved for Canadian installation.

American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...

"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."

This MAY allow for a 10 amp breaker to protect a particular hard
wired/exclusive circuit such as a dish-washer or garburetor -
Generally speaking "device protection" breakers, as differentiated
from "circuit protection" breakers are installed in or at the
protected device rather than in the panel.

Seimens ans Square D APPEAR to be the only source for 10 amp breakers
and they are not (as far as I can determine) available in Canada. Not
available from my electrical wholesalers.
10 amp breakers are specifically for alarm circuits, not general
lighting circuits.
And for monitoring circuits (e.g. on solar panal arrays).

They are listed for the panel so I see nothing dangerous about using them on any circuit you like.

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 6:46:10 AM UTC-4, Marius Josipovic wrote:
On 5/28/19 4:18 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 11:24:04 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 28 May 2019 06:08:29 -0400, bull****
wrote:

On 5/28/19 2:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.
More bull****!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...Q110/206632124
None approved for Canadian installation.

American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...

"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."

This MAY allow for a 10 amp breaker to protect a particular hard
wired/exclusive circuit such as a dish-washer or garburetor -
Generally speaking "device protection" breakers, as differentiated
from "circuit protection" breakers are installed in or at the
protected device rather than in the panel.

Seimens ans Square D APPEAR to be the only source for 10 amp breakers
and they are not (as far as I can determine) available in Canada. Not
available from my electrical wholesalers.
10 amp breakers are specifically for alarm circuits, not general
lighting circuits.
And for monitoring circuits (e.g. on solar panal arrays).

They are listed for the panel so I see nothing dangerous about using them on any circuit you like.

Assuming everything else is done right, they would not be dangerous,
but they would not be code compliant if used for uses like receptacles
or general lighting.

On Wed, 29 May 2019 06:46:04 -0400, Marius Josipovic
wrote:

On 5/28/19 4:18 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 11:24:04 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 28 May 2019 06:08:29 -0400, bull****
wrote:

On 5/28/19 2:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.
More bull****!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...Q110/206632124
None approved for Canadian installation.

American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...

"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."

This MAY allow for a 10 amp breaker to protect a particular hard
wired/exclusive circuit such as a dish-washer or garburetor -
Generally speaking "device protection" breakers, as differentiated
from "circuit protection" breakers are installed in or at the
protected device rather than in the panel.

Seimens ans Square D APPEAR to be the only source for 10 amp breakers
and they are not (as far as I can determine) available in Canada. Not
available from my electrical wholesalers.
10 amp breakers are specifically for alarm circuits, not general
lighting circuits.
And for monitoring circuits (e.g. on solar panal arrays).

They are listed for the panel so I see nothing dangerous about using them on any circuit you like.


That is pretty much true as long as you are not trying to use it as an
excuse to avoid the rules about "15 and 20a 120v circuits".
You will have to add "device" protection for circuits that require
AFCI/GFCI protection since they do not offer it in a 10a breaker.

On Wed, 29 May 2019 06:49:44 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 6:46:10 AM UTC-4, Marius Josipovic wrote:
On 5/28/19 4:18 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 11:24:04 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 28 May 2019 06:08:29 -0400, bull****
wrote:

On 5/28/19 2:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.
More bull****!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...Q110/206632124
None approved for Canadian installation.

American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...

"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."

This MAY allow for a 10 amp breaker to protect a particular hard
wired/exclusive circuit such as a dish-washer or garburetor -
Generally speaking "device protection" breakers, as differentiated
from "circuit protection" breakers are installed in or at the
protected device rather than in the panel.

Seimens ans Square D APPEAR to be the only source for 10 amp breakers
and they are not (as far as I can determine) available in Canada. Not
available from my electrical wholesalers.
10 amp breakers are specifically for alarm circuits, not general
lighting circuits.
And for monitoring circuits (e.g. on solar panal arrays).

They are listed for the panel so I see nothing dangerous about using them on any circuit you like.

Assuming everything else is done right, they would not be dangerous,
but they would not be code compliant if used for uses like receptacles
or general lighting.

That is an interesting question. As long as the "ampacity" (14ga or
larger wire) complied, I am not sure if it is a violation.
This came up with the idea of putting the bedroom smokes on a 10a
right after the AFCI rules kicked in on 15 and 20a 120v circuits
(2002).
The opinion of NFPA was you still needed to include AFCI protection
but they didn't say it was illegal. At the time there was no "device"
AFCI so it was moot.

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 12:31:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 29 May 2019 06:49:44 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 6:46:10 AM UTC-4, Marius Josipovic wrote:
On 5/28/19 4:18 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 11:24:04 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 28 May 2019 06:08:29 -0400, bull****
wrote:

On 5/28/19 2:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.
More bull****!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...Q110/206632124
None approved for Canadian installation.

American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...

"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."

This MAY allow for a 10 amp breaker to protect a particular hard
wired/exclusive circuit such as a dish-washer or garburetor -
Generally speaking "device protection" breakers, as differentiated
from "circuit protection" breakers are installed in or at the
protected device rather than in the panel.

Seimens ans Square D APPEAR to be the only source for 10 amp breakers
and they are not (as far as I can determine) available in Canada. Not
available from my electrical wholesalers.
10 amp breakers are specifically for alarm circuits, not general
lighting circuits.
And for monitoring circuits (e.g. on solar panal arrays).

They are listed for the panel so I see nothing dangerous about using them on any circuit you like.

Assuming everything else is done right, they would not be dangerous,
but they would not be code compliant if used for uses like receptacles
or general lighting.

That is an interesting question. As long as the "ampacity" (14ga or
larger wire) complied, I am not sure if it is a violation.


I was assuming Clare's cite was correct:


"American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...
"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."



But I just looked in the 2017 edition and 210.3 doesn't say that,
it's about something totally different, so IDK what edition he got
that from. I do see where they say 210.23 (A) A 15 or 20A branch
circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting or other utilization
eqpt, or a combination of both..... It's all irrelevant anyway,
really. Does Romex exist in less than 14g? I'll bet a 10A breaker
costs as much or more than a 15A too.

The original question about ten lights on 18g, I was thinking it might
be a string of outdoor lights that you could put a 100W bulb in or
a string of Edison lights. But others had a more common case, a
chandelier that has ten of the smaller bulbs, 60W max and it's very
common to see 18g wiring on those, no issue.

In article ,
says...

The original question about ten lights on 18g, I was thinking it might
be a string of outdoor lights that you could put a 100W bulb in or
a string of Edison lights. But others had a more common case, a
chandelier that has ten of the smaller bulbs, 60W max and it's very
common to see 18g wiring on those, no issue.



One other thing comes in to play with the lights. They are designed to
be strung up in open air. This lets the wire run cooler than if in a
wall or conduit with little to no air circulating to carry away the
heat.

On 5/29/19 2:14 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 12:31:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 29 May 2019 06:49:44 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 6:46:10 AM UTC-4, Marius Josipovic wrote:
On 5/28/19 4:18 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 11:24:04 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 28 May 2019 06:08:29 -0400, bull****
wrote:

On 5/28/19 2:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.
More bull****!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...Q110/206632124
None approved for Canadian installation.

American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...

"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."

This MAY allow for a 10 amp breaker to protect a particular hard
wired/exclusive circuit such as a dish-washer or garburetor -
Generally speaking "device protection" breakers, as differentiated
from "circuit protection" breakers are installed in or at the
protected device rather than in the panel.

Seimens ans Square D APPEAR to be the only source for 10 amp breakers
and they are not (as far as I can determine) available in Canada. Not
available from my electrical wholesalers.
10 amp breakers are specifically for alarm circuits, not general
lighting circuits.
And for monitoring circuits (e.g. on solar panal arrays).
They are listed for the panel so I see nothing dangerous about using them on any circuit you like.
Assuming everything else is done right, they would not be dangerous,
but they would not be code compliant if used for uses like receptacles
or general lighting.
That is an interesting question. As long as the "ampacity" (14ga or
larger wire) complied, I am not sure if it is a violation.

I was assuming Clare's cite was correct:


"American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...
"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."



But I just looked in the 2017 edition and 210.3 doesn't say that,
it's about something totally different, so IDK what edition he got
that from. I do see where they say 210.23 (A) A 15 or 20A branch
circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting or other utilization
eqpt, or a combination of both..... It's all irrelevant anyway,
really. Does Romex exist in less than 14g? I'll bet a 10A breaker
costs as much or more than a 15A too.

The original question about ten lights on 18g, I was thinking it might
be a string of outdoor lights that you could put a 100W bulb in or
a string of Edison lights. But others had a more common case, a
chandelier that has ten of the smaller bulbs, 60W max and it's very
common to see 18g wiring on those, no issue.


Let's say I have a dedicated, exclusive use, telecom closet that contains a cable modem, router, 24-port switch, a network hard drive and a VoIP adapter.Â* Total load for all devices is 240 watts or 2 amps.Â* Now lets say one of the cheap imported POS
devices decides to let out its magic smoke.Â* If the failing device starts drawing more current as it fails, would it be safer to have the failing device on a 10 amp breaker or a 20 amp breaker?

Â*To me it seems reasonable that the 10 amp breaker would pop faster than the 20, maybe even preventing a fire.

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 3:45:01 PM UTC-4, devnull wrote:
On 5/29/19 2:14 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 12:31:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 29 May 2019 06:49:44 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 6:46:10 AM UTC-4, Marius Josipovic wrote:
On 5/28/19 4:18 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Tue, 28 May 2019 11:24:04 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 28 May 2019 06:08:29 -0400, bull****
wrote:

On 5/28/19 2:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
There are no breakers or fuses rated
at less than 15 amps approved for residential wiring installations.
More bull****!

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...Q110/206632124
None approved for Canadian installation.

American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...

"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."

This MAY allow for a 10 amp breaker to protect a particular hard
wired/exclusive circuit such as a dish-washer or garburetor -
Generally speaking "device protection" breakers, as differentiated
from "circuit protection" breakers are installed in or at the
protected device rather than in the panel.

Seimens ans Square D APPEAR to be the only source for 10 amp breakers
and they are not (as far as I can determine) available in Canada. Not
available from my electrical wholesalers.
10 amp breakers are specifically for alarm circuits, not general
lighting circuits.
And for monitoring circuits (e.g. on solar panal arrays).
They are listed for the panel so I see nothing dangerous about using them on any circuit you like.
Assuming everything else is done right, they would not be dangerous,
but they would not be code compliant if used for uses like receptacles
or general lighting.
That is an interesting question. As long as the "ampacity" (14ga or
larger wire) complied, I am not sure if it is a violation.

I was assuming Clare's cite was correct:


"American code does not seem to reference 10 amp breakers as
acceptable. Check NEC code reference 210.3 with the following...
"Branch circuit ratings for other than individual circuits must be
15A, 20A, 30A, 40A, or 50A."



But I just looked in the 2017 edition and 210.3 doesn't say that,
it's about something totally different, so IDK what edition he got
that from. I do see where they say 210.23 (A) A 15 or 20A branch
circuit shall be permitted to supply lighting or other utilization
eqpt, or a combination of both..... It's all irrelevant anyway,
really. Does Romex exist in less than 14g? I'll bet a 10A breaker
costs as much or more than a 15A too.

The original question about ten lights on 18g, I was thinking it might
be a string of outdoor lights that you could put a 100W bulb in or
a string of Edison lights. But others had a more common case, a
chandelier that has ten of the smaller bulbs, 60W max and it's very
common to see 18g wiring on those, no issue.


Let's say I have a dedicated, exclusive use, telecom closet that contains a cable modem, router, 24-port switch, a network hard drive and a VoIP adapter.Â* Total load for all devices is 240 watts or 2 amps.Â* Now lets say one of the cheap imported POS
devices decides to let out its magic smoke.Â* If the failing device starts drawing more current as it fails, would it be safer to have the failing device on a 10 amp breaker or a 20 amp breaker?

Â*To me it seems reasonable that the 10 amp breaker would pop faster than the 20, maybe even preventing a fire.

I agree. But that isn't the only issue. The issue is what is or is not
permitted under the NEC. You are talking about eqpt that would be
plugged into a receptacle. And on that, NEC is clear, it's 15A
minimum. Also, all those devices have internal fusing to limit
the current if a fault occurs.

On 5/29/19 3:52 PM, trader_4 wrote:
Also, all those devices have internal fusing to limit
the current if a fault occurs.

I'm sure the UL Listed stuff does.Â* The rest of the import crap, we can only hope.

For example, around the turn of the century there were some cheap plastic surge suppressor power strips that would catch fire.Â* The manufacturer tried to obfuscate the issue but the fires were actually caused by the MOV's failure (thermal runaway).

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 4:41:23 PM UTC-4, devnull wrote:
On 5/29/19 3:52 PM, trader_4 wrote:
Also, all those devices have internal fusing to limit
the current if a fault occurs.

I'm sure the UL Listed stuff does.Â* The rest of the import crap, we can only hope.

If there was some problem with imported devices not meeting UL and starting
fires, with the billions of them out there, we should have seen it.





For example, around the turn of the century there were some cheap plastic surge suppressor power strips that would catch fire.Â* The manufacturer tried to obfuscate the issue but the fires were actually caused by the MOV's failure (thermal runaway).

Yes, 20 years ago. More recently they had those scooter things with
batteries that were catching fire. But of all the billions of widgets,
it's obviously an very insignificant percentage. And no evidence that
if you had a 10a breaker instead of a 15a, it would have made any difference. It's silly anyway, I don't want breakers tripping, 15A
works for me.

In article , says...

Let's say I have a dedicated, exclusive use, telecom closet that contains a cable modem, router, 24-port switch, a network hard drive and a VoIP adapter.* Total load for all devices is 240 watts or 2 amps.* Now lets say one of the cheap imported POS
devices decides to let out its magic smoke.* If the failing device starts drawing more current as it fails, would it be safer to have the failing device on a 10 amp breaker or a 20 amp breaker?

*To me it seems reasonable that the 10 amp breaker would pop faster than the 20, maybe even preventing a fire.




You do not understand how the electrical code in the US works. It is
not designed to protect the equipment, it is designed to protect the
wiring in most cases.

Each individual device should be fused and other wise self protected. I
say should because there is lots of cheep crap out that does not meet
any decent requuirements or standards.

On 5/29/19 7:14 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...
Let's say I have a dedicated, exclusive use, telecom closet that contains a cable modem, router, 24-port switch, a network hard drive and a VoIP adapter.* Total load for all devices is 240 watts or 2 amps.* Now lets say one of the cheap imported POS
devices decides to let out its magic smoke.* If the failing device starts drawing more current as it fails, would it be safer to have the failing device on a 10 amp breaker or a 20 amp breaker?

*To me it seems reasonable that the 10 amp breaker would pop faster than the 20, maybe even preventing a fire.



You do not understand how the electrical code in the US works. It is
not designed to protect the equipment, it is designed to protect the
wiring in most cases.


Yes I do, and a 10 amp breaker would protect 14 awg wiring.



Each individual device should be fused and other wise self protected. I
say should because there is lots of cheep crap out that does not meet
any decent requuirements or standards.


Duh!

On Wed, 29 May 2019 19:14:18 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

Let's say I have a dedicated, exclusive use, telecom closet that contains a cable modem, router, 24-port switch, a network hard drive and a VoIP adapter.Â* Total load for all devices is 240 watts or 2 amps.Â* Now lets say one of the cheap imported POS
devices decides to let out its magic smoke.Â* If the failing device starts drawing more current as it fails, would it be safer to have the failing device on a 10 amp breaker or a 20 amp breaker?

Â*To me it seems reasonable that the 10 amp breaker would pop faster than the 20, maybe even preventing a fire.




You do not understand how the electrical code in the US works. It is
not designed to protect the equipment, it is designed to protect the
wiring in most cases.

Each individual device should be fused and other wise self protected. I
say should because there is lots of cheep crap out that does not meet
any decent requuirements or standards.


Absolutely true. The NEC really stops at the receptacle face. From
there we depend on a NRTL like TUV or U/L to protect the equipment.

On Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 2:45:01 PM UTC-5, devnull wrote:
[...]
Let's say I have a dedicated, exclusive use, telecom closet
that contains a cable modem, router, 24-port switch, a network
hard drive and a VoIP adapter.Â* Total load for all devices is
240 watts or 2 amps.Â*

Such things are fused locally. Use a powerstrip with a 5a breaker.
Things like pumps have local panels with a small breaker. You
just don't put the 5a breaker in the main breaker box.