On 2018-12-20 11:23 a.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:14:07 -0000, % wrote:

On 2018-12-20 10:08 a.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:04:50 -0000, Sir Gaygory's Owner's Owner �笛
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 08:34:35 -0800 (PST), LO AND BEHOLD; trader_4
determined that the following was of great
importance and subsequently decided to freely share it with us in
:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:51:32 AM UTC-5,
William Gothberg
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ wrote:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 04:31:31 -0000, Clare
Snyder
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ wrote:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:03:19
-0500, "Clark W. Griswold"
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ wrote:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On 12/19/2018 11:36
AM, William Gothberg wrote:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On Wed, 19
Dec 2018 16:18:29 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On 12/19/18 5:23 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Do switch mode power supplies flicker in time
with mains?Â* Specifically
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ LED power supplies in commercially available
domestic lamps. By in time,
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ I don't mean at the same 50/60Hz, but anchored
to it. I.e. if you have
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ several such lamps each with their own built
in supply, will they all
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ flicker in time, using the mains frequency to
keep them in time, or
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ will they be random, making the room overall
not flicker due to them
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ all being random?Â* And is there any way I can
test this?Â* I tried
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ taking photos of them, but my camera only goes
as fast as 1/2000th of a
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ second, which shows all the lights at the same
brightness each time, I
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ suspect the flicker is above 2000Hz.
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ I once had an audio amplifier with a solar cell rather
than a microphone
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ for the input transducer. This made it possible to listen
to light. The
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ sun is steady, incandescent lights (AC powered) hum. That
was 40 years
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ ago. Maybe something like that would work today.
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ The
trouble is I want to compare 2kHz+ from one light with 2kHz+ from a
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
neighbouring light and see if they're in sync.
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Maybe use a dual trace
oscilloscope? Since this landed in
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ alt.home.repair, I
gotta ask.Â* Do you have single-phase or two-phase?
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ No such thing as "2 phase" -
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Perhaps he meant split phase, like in the USA
- centre tapped 240V.
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Which could conceivably mean I could have some
lights on each circuit,
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ and if they were fed by half wave
rectification, flickering at 50Hz,
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ they could be out of time with each other and
make the whole room
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ flicker at 100Hz, filling in each other's
gaps.Â* Mind you the same can
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ happen by just putting the bulb in the other
way (in the UK bayonet cap
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ fittings allow you to connect live/neutral the
other way at random with
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ bulbs).
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ They won't be out of time with each other as each circuit
is reaching
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ it's peak value at exactly the same time.Â* That's how you
get 240V,
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ 120+120 = 240.

they know a lot about this over in alt.checkmate

What the **** are all those stars for?

i want them there

Why?

i charge a fee to answer questions

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:30:38 -0000, Skeeter wrote:

In article , "William
says...

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:14:07 -0000, % wrote:

On 2018-12-20 10:08 a.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:04:50 -0000, Sir Gaygory's Owner's Owner ??
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 08:34:35 -0800 (PST), LO AND BEHOLD; trader_4
determined that the following was of great
importance and subsequently decided to freely share it with us in
:
??????????? On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:51:32 AM UTC-5,
William Gothberg
??????????? wrote:
??????????? ??????????? On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 04:31:31 -0000, Clare
Snyder
??????????? ??????????? wrote:
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:03:19
-0500, "Clark W. Griswold"
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? wrote:
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? On 12/19/2018 11:36
AM, William Gothberg wrote:
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? On Wed, 19
Dec 2018 16:18:29 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? On 12/19/18 5:23 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? ??????????? Do switch mode power supplies flicker in time
with mains? Specifically
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? ??????????? LED power supplies in commercially available
domestic lamps. By in time,
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? ??????????? I don't mean at the same 50/60Hz, but anchored
to it. I.e. if you have
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? ??????????? several such lamps each with their own built
in supply, will they all
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? ??????????? flicker in time, using the mains frequency to
keep them in time, or
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? ??????????? will they be random, making the room overall
not flicker due to them
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? ??????????? all being random? And is there any way I can
test this? I tried
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? ??????????? taking photos of them, but my camera only goes
as fast as 1/2000th of a
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? ??????????? second, which shows all the lights at the same
brightness each time, I
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? ??????????? suspect the flicker is above 2000Hz.
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? I once had an audio amplifier with a solar cell rather
than a microphone
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? for the input transducer. This made it possible to listen
to light. The
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? sun is steady, incandescent lights (AC powered) hum. That
was 40 years
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
??????????? ago. Maybe something like that would work today.
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? The
trouble is I want to compare 2kHz+ from one light with 2kHz+ from a
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????????
neighbouring light and see if they're in sync.
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? Maybe use a dual trace
oscilloscope? Since this landed in
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????????? alt.home.repair, I
gotta ask. Do you have single-phase or two-phase?
??????????? ??????????? ??????????? No such thing as "2 phase" -
??????????? ??????????? Perhaps he meant split phase, like in the USA
- centre tapped 240V.
??????????? ??????????? Which could conceivably mean I could have some
lights on each circuit,
??????????? ??????????? and if they were fed by half wave
rectification, flickering at 50Hz,
??????????? ??????????? they could be out of time with each other and
make the whole room
??????????? ??????????? flicker at 100Hz, filling in each other's
gaps. Mind you the same can
??????????? ??????????? happen by just putting the bulb in the other
way (in the UK bayonet cap
??????????? ??????????? fittings allow you to connect live/neutral the
other way at random with
??????????? ??????????? bulbs).
???????????
??????????? They won't be out of time with each other as each circuit
is reaching
??????????? it's peak value at exactly the same time. That's how you
get 240V,
??????????? 120+120 = 240.

they know a lot about this over in alt.checkmate

What the **** are all those stars for?

i want them there

Why?

you dare question the % ?

Yes.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:37:18 -0700, LO AND BEHOLD; %
determined that the following was of great importance and subsequently
decided to freely share it with us in :

œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On 2018-12-20 11:23 a.m., William Gothberg wrote:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:14:07 -0000, % wrote:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On 2018-12-20 10:08 a.m., William Gothberg wrote:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:04:50 -0000, 💩's Owner ðŸ�¶ç¬›
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ wrote:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 08:34:35 -0800 (PST), LO AND BEHOLD; trader_4
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ determined that the following was of great
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ importance and subsequently decided to freely share it with us in
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ :
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ 7:51:32 AM UTC-5, William Gothberg œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ wrote: œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 04:31:31 -0000,
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Clare Snyder œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ wrote:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 13:03:19 -0500,
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ "Clark W. Griswold" œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ wrote: œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On 12/19/2018 11:36 AM, William
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Gothberg wrote: œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:18:29 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ On 12/19/18 5:23 AM, William Gothberg
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ wrote: œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Do
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ switch mode power supplies flicker in time with mains?Â* Specifically
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ LED power supplies in commercially
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ available domestic lamps. By in time, œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ I
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ don't mean at the same 50/60Hz, but anchored to it. I.e. if you have
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ several such lamps each with their
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ own built in supply, will they all œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ flicker in time, using the mains frequency to keep them in time, or
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ will they be random, making the room
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ overall not flicker due to them œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ all
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ being random?Â* And is there any way I can test this?Â* I tried
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ taking photos of them, but my camera
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ only goes as fast as 1/2000th of a œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ second, which shows all the lights at the same brightness each time, I
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ suspect the flicker is above 2000Hz.
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ I
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ once had an audio amplifier with a solar cell rather than a microphone
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ for
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ the input transducer. This made it possible to listen to light. The
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ sun
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ is steady, incandescent lights (AC powered) hum. That was 40 years
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ ago. Maybe something like that would work today.
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ The trouble is I want to compare
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ 2kHz+ from one light with 2kHz+ from a
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ neighbouring light and see if they're
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ in sync. œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Maybe use a dual trace oscilloscope?
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Since this landed in œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ alt.home.repair, I gotta ask.Â* Do
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ you have single-phase or two-phase? œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ No
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ such thing as "2 phase" - œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Perhaps he meant split phase, like in
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ the USA - centre tapped 240V. œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Which could conceivably mean I could
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ have some lights on each circuit, œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ and if they were fed by half wave
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ rectification, flickering at 50Hz, œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ they could be out of time with each
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ other and make the whole room œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ flicker at 100Hz, filling in each
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ other's gaps.Â* Mind you the same can œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ happen by just putting the bulb in
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ the other way (in the UK bayonet cap œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ fittings allow you to connect
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ live/neutral the other way at random with
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ bulbs). œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ They won't be out of time with each
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ other as each circuit is reaching œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ it's peak value at exactly the same time.Â* That's how you get 240V,
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ 120+120 = 240. they know a lot about
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ this over in alt.checkmate
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ What the **** are all those stars for?
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ i want them there
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ Why?
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡
œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡œ¡ i charge a fee to answer questions

neal warren will do it for free and give you a HJ because he's a socialist.

--
[THIS POAST HAS PASSED TRIMCHECK® VALIDATION]

THIS SPACE FOR RENT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB6B8jGSdLA

"Thanks to muzzies and their apologist-enablers like puppy whistle, this
seems to be the new norm in the world. It's spreading like a cancer,
and it's time we admit we're at war with pure evil. We need to put an
end to this muzzie plague, or life on Earth is going to become pure hell
everywhere. We need to get these people out of every civilized
country, and there's only one way to do it. IOW, we have to become
like them, with an emphasis on expediency over cruelty." - Checkmate (of alt.checkmate)

"Pussy Willow has just proven that Trump's crackdown on previously
unenforced immigration policies is working. We'll deal with the domestic
terrorists as needed, but we don't need to be letting the muzzie
terrorists get a foothold in our country too. One need only look at what
they're doing in Europe right now to know we're doing the right thing by
keeping them out, which is our right and our duty. - Checkmate (#1 pussy willow fan)

-

"You just made puppy whistle's sig line longer." - Janithor

-

"If I have a complaint about the (Southern Poverty) Law Center's description (of the alt-right movement), it is the phrase "heavy use of social media," which implies the alt-right is a real-world movement which uses a lot of social media. This is backwards: it is an online movement which occasionally appears in the real world. Where it gets punched." - Jason Rhode

-

"I think we should destroy every last ****ing mosque in America." - "Checkmate, DoW #1" proves for us that white males are violent in Message-ID:

-

Golden Killfile, June 2005
KOTM, November 2006
Bob Allisat Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, November 2006
Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart, November 2006
Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart, September 2007
Tony Sidaway Memorial "Drama Queen" Award, November 2006
Busted Urinal Award, April 2007
Order of the Holey Sockpuppet, September 2007
Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle, September 2006
Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle, April 2008
Tinfoil Sombrero, February 2007
AUK Mascot, September 2007
Putting the Awards Out of Order to Screw With the OCD ****heads, March 2016

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

Good idea.

I just tried it with the best lamps I have, which show a slight variation
in brightness at exactly 100Hz, which must be seeping through from the
mains. However the LEDs never go off, they just change brightness by 8%.

With the worst lamp, same 100Hz, but they actually go right on and off,
with a duty cycle of 0.6.

Am I right in thinking these aren't SMPS at all?

Yep. those will have simple capacitance droppers.

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 08:19:58 -0000, gregz wrote:

Clare Snyder wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 19:34:57 -0000, "William Gothberg" "William
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 18:03:19 -0000, Clark W. Griswold
wrote:

On 12/19/2018 11:36 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:18:29 -0000, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/19/18 5:23 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
Do switch mode power supplies flicker in time with mains?
Specifically
LED power supplies in commercially available domestic lamps. By in
time, I don't mean at the same 50/60Hz, but anchored to it. I.e. if
you
have several such lamps each with their own built in supply, will
they
all flicker in time, using the mains frequency to keep them in
time, or
will they be random, making the room overall not flicker due to
them all
being random? And is there any way I can test this? I tried
taking
photos of them, but my camera only goes as fast as 1/2000th of a
second,
which shows all the lights at the same brightness each time, I
suspect
the flicker is above 2000Hz.

I once had an audio amplifier with a solar cell rather than a
microphone
for the input transducer. This made it possible to listen to light.
The
sun is steady, incandescent lights (AC powered) hum.

That was 40 years ago. Maybe something like that would work today.

The trouble is I want to compare 2kHz+ from one light with 2kHz+ from
a neighbouring light and see if they're in sync.

Maybe use a dual trace oscilloscope?

Haven't got one unfortunately.

Since this landed in alt.home.repair, I gotta ask. Do you have
single-phase or two-phase?

Single. I'm in the UK.
so 50 Htz - you can almost see an incandescent flicker at that
frequency (at 25 you could)

(also rules out the previously mentioned "engineer friend")

Lights flicker at twice the frequency, once for positive cycle, and once
for negative cycle. LEDs only once unles using a bridge rectifier, or
steady on using DC. Even though blinking they look normal straight on, my
brain says something is wrong

Some brains (or eyes) seem to be faster than others. I can easily (and
annoyingly) see flicker on CRT monitors below 90Hz, others don't even see
the 50 or 60Hz ones. I can see flicker on 80% of car LED lights, others
don't see any. Designers really ought to account for those of us with
better eyesight.

No point in doing that.

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor, they'd reduce their flicker.

Wont work at all if they use capacitor droppers and
they very likely do because those are the only cheap
droppers for dropping such a large voltage.

Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

The cheap **** LED lamp I have that actually flashes at 100Hz would most
likely get much brighter and burn out, so I'd have to adjust that, but the
others which only flicker 8% would just get 4% brighter.

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 13:19:55 -0000, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 20 December 2018 13:00:02 UTC, William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor,

No they'd probbaly blow up, don;t forget a bridge recifir would produce a
voltage of at leat 330V and the power dissapated by each LED would also
increase .

I thought about that, and the cheapest one, which seems to be just a
bridge rectifier straight to the LEDs, would make them 65% brighter. But
the others should only get 4% brighter. A switched mode supply fed by DC
at the peak voltage of the mains, would still have its bulk capacitor at
about the same voltage. It's already doing what I'm suggesting I do
externally. They're rated at 85-260V, so I assume they're switched mode.

Not necessarily. Its quite possible to do a capacitor dropper powering
a current regulator that way. Have a look a Big Clive's teardowns.

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 04:27:41 -0000, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:39:50 -0000, "William Gothberg" "William
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:34:11 -0000, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 December 2018 16:21:43 UTC, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 12/19/18 6:01 AM, William Gothberg wrote:

[snip]

They probably are fairly crude. I know they flicker, for example if
I
use my cordless drill, the chuck appears to spin the wrong way under
the
LED lighting.
I remember seeing that with a washing machine (under fluorescent
lights). As the tub was slowing down, the row of holes around the tub
would appear to reverse direction. Same thing with (spoked) wagon
wheels
in movies.

You can also observe such things using a smartphone that has a high FPS
rate for recodring movie.
I can see the labs lights flicker when I film at 240FPS standard 60
and everything seems fine.

Everybody seems to constantly cut corners. Lights should just be on, no
flicker at all. ****ing annoying if you have decent eyesight, I can see
the flicker from almost everyone's LED tail lights.


This is sounding more and more like our "engineer friend" who needs
to do his own tire repairs and alignments and clutch repairs.

Don't know who you're referring to, but what's wrong with striving for
perfection?

It increases costs for everyone who isnt a freak.

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message
...
On 12/19/18 12:03 PM, Clark W. Griswold wrote:

[snip]

The trouble is I want to compare 2kHz+ from one light with 2kHz+ from a
neighbouring light and see if they're in sync.

Maybe use a dual trace oscilloscope?

And you'd have to isolate the lights from each other.

Since this landed in alt.home.repair, I gotta ask. Do you have
single-phase or two-phase?

Normally, neighboring lights would be powered from the same phase.

Mine arent and that is deliberate so that if I lose a single phase, and
that isnt that uncommon, I don't lose all the lights in the one area.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 08:25:22 -0800 (PST), tardo_4 an especially stupid,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered:


Either you have eyes that are way more sensitive to this or you're in a
country that uses different car lights than here in the USA.

Or he is just a deranged filthy troll who ENJOYS baiting senile Yankietards
like you, tardo_4! BG

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:13:52 -0800 (PST), tardo_4 an especially stupid,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered:


Like I said, I haven't noticed it in the driving I've done.

You ****ed up senile Yankietard don't even notice it when the Scottish
troll, ****** and attention whore keeps leading you around by your senile
Yankie nose! LOL

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 08:28:58 -0800 (PST), tardo_4 an especially stupid,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered:


In this case that translates to it's a waste of time, money and
economically inefficient to fix things that aren't a problem.

Sure, just like your idiotic feeding of the dumbest troll around, tardo_4!
LOL

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 05:55:13 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


don't see any. Designers really ought to account for those of us with
better eyesight.

No point in doing that.

It's really psychiatrists who should look after folk with damaged brains
like the two of you! LOL

--
Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rot:
"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?"
MID:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 08:34:35 -0800 (PST), tardo_4 an especially stupid,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered:


They won't be out of time with each other as each circuit is reaching it's
peak value at exactly the same time. That's how you get 240V, 120+120 = 240.

You DO know, senile Yankietard, that the Scottish sow, troll and attention
whore can go on like this for WEEKS and MONTHS? Or HOW senile are you?

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 05:50:23 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



Yep. those will have simple capacitance droppers.

Those could never be as simple as the "brains" of you two prize idiots! BG

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 06:24:19 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Not necessarily. Its quite possible to do a capacitor dropper powering
a current regulator that way. Have a look a Big Clive's teardowns.

It seems to be quite impossible to separate you two congenital idiots with a
crowbar even! LOL

--
FredXX to Rot Speed:
"You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder
we shippe the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity
and criminality is inherited after all?"
Message-ID:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 06:11:36 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

Wot? And then not being able to keep baiting you senile idiots anymore? LOL

--
The Natural Philosopher about senile Rot:
"Rod speed is not a Brexiteer. He is an Australian troll and arsehole."
Message-ID:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:11:36 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor, they'd reduce their flicker.

Wont work at all if they use capacitor droppers and

I made a few of those to power LEDs to indicate the function of my central heating. I'm looking inside the flickery lamp just now (£15, 20W). Without undoing the glue holding the PSU onto the inside of it, all I can see is probably: the mains going through a large bipolar cap, a tiny resistor (to discharge it safely?), a bridge rectifier, another very large resister (to limit the LED current more accurately?), then a 400V 4.7uF capacitor (which is bulged). A capacitor dropper with a rectifier and smoothing capacitor after it? The one I made has no smoothing cap, just mains to cap to resistor to bridge to LED. Perhaps this bulged cap is why I'm getting flicker, I'll try replacing it tomorrow.

they very likely do because those are the only cheap
droppers for dropping such a large voltage.

Aren't miniature SMPS units pretty cheap? I just bought a 12V 6A SMPS for £4.50. Designed for powering LEDs - but I've looked inside it and it's definitely a switched mode, not a capacitor dropper. Now this flickery LED lamp I'm looking inside, it's about 20W, so 12V at 2A is all that's required, it could have had an SMPS in it similar to the one I just described.

I'm now looking inside one of the better LED lamps (the non-flickery model). It has a basic SMPS inside it. They're 9W and £4 each for the whole lamp. I'm sure it's more than just a standard SMPS though, because when some LEDs fail short circuit (it has about 40 in series), the voltage coming from the PSU drops, to maintain the correct current for the remaining good LEDs.

Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

Looks like it would help the better ones, but not the crap one. Better (as I only have a few crap ones) to stick a bigger smoothing cap inside those. For the good ones, the only problem I can foresee with the external smoother, is overloading the lamp's bridge rectifier, as it will only be conducting on two of the four diodes.

The cheap **** LED lamp I have that actually flashes at 100Hz would most
likely get much brighter and burn out, so I'd have to adjust that, but the
others which only flicker 8% would just get 4% brighter.

On 2018-12-20 1:30 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:11:36 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor, they'd reduce their flicker.

Wont work at all if they use capacitor droppers and

I made a few of those to power LEDs to indicate the function of my
central heating.* I'm looking inside the flickery lamp just now (£15,
20W).* Without undoing the glue holding the PSU onto the inside of it,
all I can see is probably: the mains going through a large bipolar cap,
a tiny resistor (to discharge it safely?), a bridge rectifier, another
very large resister (to limit the LED current more accurately?), then a
400V 4.7uF capacitor (which is bulged).* A capacitor dropper with a
rectifier and smoothing capacitor after it?* The one I made has no
smoothing cap, just mains to cap to resistor to bridge to LED.* Perhaps
this bulged cap is why I'm getting flicker, I'll try replacing it tomorrow.

they very likely do because those are the only cheap
droppers for dropping such a large voltage.

Aren't miniature SMPS units pretty cheap?* I just bought a 12V 6A SMPS
for £4.50.* Designed for powering LEDs - but I've looked inside it and
it's definitely a switched mode, not a capacitor dropper.* Now this
flickery LED lamp I'm looking inside, it's about 20W, so 12V at 2A is
all that's required, it could have had an SMPS in it similar to the one
I just described.

I'm now looking inside one of the better LED lamps (the non-flickery
model).* It has a basic SMPS inside it.* They're 9W and £4 each for the
whole lamp.* I'm sure it's more than just a standard SMPS though,
because when some LEDs fail short circuit (it has about 40 in series),
the voltage coming from the PSU drops, to maintain the correct current
for the remaining good LEDs.

Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

Looks like it would help the better ones, but not the crap one.* Better
(as I only have a few crap ones) to stick a bigger smoothing cap inside
those.* For the good ones, the only problem I can foresee with the
external smoother, is overloading the lamp's bridge rectifier, as it
will only be conducting on two of the four diodes.

The cheap **** LED lamp I have that actually flashes at 100Hz would most
likely get much brighter and burn out, so I'd have to adjust that,
but the
others which only flicker 8% would just get 4% brighter.

you could use being 4 % brighter

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:40:26 -0000, % wrote:

On 2018-12-20 1:30 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:11:36 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor, they'd reduce their flicker.

Wont work at all if they use capacitor droppers and

I made a few of those to power LEDs to indicate the function of my
central heating. I'm looking inside the flickery lamp just now (£15,
20W). Without undoing the glue holding the PSU onto the inside of it,
all I can see is probably: the mains going through a large bipolar cap,
a tiny resistor (to discharge it safely?), a bridge rectifier, another
very large resister (to limit the LED current more accurately?), then a
400V 4.7uF capacitor (which is bulged). A capacitor dropper with a
rectifier and smoothing capacitor after it? The one I made has no
smoothing cap, just mains to cap to resistor to bridge to LED. Perhaps
this bulged cap is why I'm getting flicker, I'll try replacing it tomorrow.

they very likely do because those are the only cheap
droppers for dropping such a large voltage.

Aren't miniature SMPS units pretty cheap? I just bought a 12V 6A SMPS
for £4.50. Designed for powering LEDs - but I've looked inside it and
it's definitely a switched mode, not a capacitor dropper. Now this
flickery LED lamp I'm looking inside, it's about 20W, so 12V at 2A is
all that's required, it could have had an SMPS in it similar to the one
I just described.

I'm now looking inside one of the better LED lamps (the non-flickery
model). It has a basic SMPS inside it. They're 9W and £4 each for the
whole lamp. I'm sure it's more than just a standard SMPS though,
because when some LEDs fail short circuit (it has about 40 in series),
the voltage coming from the PSU drops, to maintain the correct current
for the remaining good LEDs.

Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

Looks like it would help the better ones, but not the crap one. Better
(as I only have a few crap ones) to stick a bigger smoothing cap inside
those. For the good ones, the only problem I can foresee with the
external smoother, is overloading the lamp's bridge rectifier, as it
will only be conducting on two of the four diodes.

The cheap **** LED lamp I have that actually flashes at 100Hz would most
likely get much brighter and burn out, so I'd have to adjust that,
but the
others which only flicker 8% would just get 4% brighter.

you could use being 4 % brighter

That would make my IQ 140.

Was the above too difficult for you to discuss?

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 07:02:05 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



Mine arent and that is deliberate so that if I lose a single phase,

You'd better worry about losing your one single brain cell, senile Rot! LOL

--
The Natural Philosopher about senile Rot:
"Rod speed is not a Brexiteer. He is an Australian troll and arsehole."
Message-ID:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:13:52 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 12:07:40 PM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:25:22 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:29:53 AM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:57:01 -0000, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 December 2018 16:35:05 UTC, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:21:41 -0000, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/19/18 6:01 AM, William Gothberg wrote:

[snip]

They probably are fairly crude. I know they flicker, for
example if I
use my cordless drill, the chuck appears to spin the wrong way
under the
LED lighting.
I remember seeing that with a washing machine (under fluorescent
lights). As the tub was slowing down, the row of holes around
the tub
would appear to reverse direction. Same thing with (spoked)
wagon wheels
in movies.

It looks absolutely ridiculous with modern cars with LED
headlights in films. How hard can it be to put a smoothing
capacitor on the output of the power supply?

It's easy but that isn't the point. The most efficient way of
driving to make maximium power into the LED means yuo have to
pulse the LED's. Using a capcitor to smooth out the DC is yet
another mode of inefficincy as it would get warm due to current
flow. Indictors in series might be better but then you run the risk
of 'radio' interference.

Being inefficient would presumably make it impossible to get enough
brightness out of LEDs that fit into the lamp holder. The LEDs would
get too hot trying to give out enough brightness for a car headlight.

However cars vary a lot, some are easy to detect flickering, some
difficult, and some impossible (with the naked eye). Perhaps they
just use a higher frequency?

Taillights are pretty bad on a lot of cars, as they dim the
brakelights by deliberately flickering them.

Either you have eyes that are way more sensitive to this or you're in
a
country that uses different car lights than here in the USA. There
are a lot of cars with LED lighting, headlights and rear lights, and
I've never noticed this flickering, nor have I ever heard it mentioned
before this thread. I haven't noticed flickering from any LED lights
I've used either.

I can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT monitor, but not on a 90Hz one, so
that'll give you an idea on how good my eyes are.

Can you see flicker on tailliights if you scan your eyes across the
scene?

Like I said, I haven't noticed it in the driving I've done. Nor have I
heard anyone else mention it. Next time I come across a car that has
LEDs I'll look more closely and see if I can see anything. If just
scanning reveals it, you;d think a lot of people would be noticing it.
Scanning is a part of driving.

I'd estimate about 1 in 5 people can see it,

Its nothing like that high and we know that because nothing
like that many saw any flickering with fluorescent lights.

similar to how many can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT computer monitor.

Nothing even remotely like 1 in 5 can see that.

Don't most cars have LEDs now? Or does your area have a lot of older
cars? People (stupidly) around here seem to like cars that are no more
than 10 years old. I don't think many cars after 2008 had bulbs.

Searching for "LED tail light flicker" without the quotes in google
produces 4.5 million results!

On 2018-12-20 1:56 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:40:26 -0000, % wrote:

On 2018-12-20 1:30 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:11:36 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor, they'd reduce their flicker.

Wont work at all if they use capacitor droppers and

I made a few of those to power LEDs to indicate the function of my
central heating.* I'm looking inside the flickery lamp just now (£15,
20W).* Without undoing the glue holding the PSU onto the inside of it,
all I can see is probably: the mains going through a large bipolar cap,
a tiny resistor (to discharge it safely?), a bridge rectifier, another
very large resister (to limit the LED current more accurately?), then a
400V 4.7uF capacitor (which is bulged).* A capacitor dropper with a
rectifier and smoothing capacitor after it?* The one I made has no
smoothing cap, just mains to cap to resistor to bridge to LED.* Perhaps
this bulged cap is why I'm getting flicker, I'll try replacing it
tomorrow.

they very likely do because those are the only cheap
droppers for dropping such a large voltage.

Aren't miniature SMPS units pretty cheap?* I just bought a 12V 6A SMPS
for £4.50.* Designed for powering LEDs - but I've looked inside it and
it's definitely a switched mode, not a capacitor dropper.* Now this
flickery LED lamp I'm looking inside, it's about 20W, so 12V at 2A is
all that's required, it could have had an SMPS in it similar to the one
I just described.

I'm now looking inside one of the better LED lamps (the non-flickery
model).* It has a basic SMPS inside it.* They're 9W and £4 each for the
whole lamp.* I'm sure it's more than just a standard SMPS though,
because when some LEDs fail short circuit (it has about 40 in series),
the voltage coming from the PSU drops, to maintain the correct current
for the remaining good LEDs.

Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

Looks like it would help the better ones, but not the crap one.* Better
(as I only have a few crap ones) to stick a bigger smoothing cap inside
those.* For the good ones, the only problem I can foresee with the
external smoother, is overloading the lamp's bridge rectifier, as it
will only be conducting on two of the four diodes.

The cheap **** LED lamp I have that actually flashes at 100Hz would
most
likely get much brighter and burn out, so I'd have to adjust that,
but the
others which only flicker 8% would just get 4% brighter.

you could use being 4 % brighter

That would make my IQ 140.

Was the above too difficult for you to discuss?

I Q's are the lamest oldest forgotten tests of them all ,
are you excited this is going to be how usenet is for you for the next
20 - 30 years

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:11:36 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor, they'd reduce their flicker.

Wont work at all if they use capacitor droppers and

I made a few of those to power LEDs to indicate the function of my central
heating. I'm looking inside the flickery lamp just now (£15, 20W).
Without undoing the glue holding the PSU onto the inside of it, all I can
see is probably: the mains going through a large bipolar cap, a tiny
resistor (to discharge it safely?), a bridge rectifier, another very large
resister (to limit the LED current more accurately?), then a 400V 4.7uF
capacitor (which is bulged).

A capacitor dropper with a rectifier and smoothing capacitor after it?

Yep, that's what it is.

The one I made has no smoothing cap, just mains to cap to resistor to
bridge to LED.

Yeah, not need for one if you don't mind the 100Hz flicker.

Perhaps this bulged cap is why I'm getting flicker, I'll try replacing it
tomorrow.

they very likely do because those are the only cheap
droppers for dropping such a large voltage.

Aren't miniature SMPS units pretty cheap?

Not as cheap as the cap and the bridge rectifier.

I just bought a 12V 6A SMPS for £4.50.

Yeah, I did too.

Designed for powering LEDs

Mine will run anything 12V. I currently use it to power a water pump.

The LEDs I use are all Hues and have their
own power supply with the led strips.

- but I've looked inside it and it's definitely a switched mode, not a
capacitor dropper. Now this flickery LED lamp I'm looking inside, it's
about 20W, so 12V at 2A is all that's required, it could have had an SMPS
in it similar to the one I just described.

Yeah, but the cap and bridge are cheaper.

I'm now looking inside one of the better LED lamps (the non-flickery
model). It has a basic SMPS inside it. They're 9W and £4 each for the
whole lamp. I'm sure it's more than just a standard SMPS though, because
when some LEDs fail short circuit (it has about 40 in series), the voltage
coming from the PSU drops, to maintain the correct current for the
remaining good LEDs.

Yeah, its best to drive leds in constant current mode.

Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

Looks like it would help the better ones, but not the crap one.

In fact capacitor dropper ones wont work at all when fed DC.

Better (as I only have a few crap ones) to stick a bigger smoothing cap
inside those.

Yep as long as it will fit.

For the good ones, the only problem I can foresee with the external
smoother, is overloading the lamp's bridge rectifier, as it will only be
conducting on two of the four diodes.

Should still be fine, most bridges in that situation are used
very conservitably and the diodes are rated for the initial
turn on surge current.

The cheap **** LED lamp I have that actually flashes at 100Hz would most
likely get much brighter and burn out, so I'd have to adjust that, but
the
others which only flicker 8% would just get 4% brighter.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:04:01 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:13:52 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 12:07:40 PM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:25:22 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:29:53 AM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:57:01 -0000, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 December 2018 16:35:05 UTC, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:21:41 -0000, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 12/19/18 6:01 AM, William Gothberg wrote:

[snip]

They probably are fairly crude. I know they flicker, for
example if I
use my cordless drill, the chuck appears to spin the wrong way
under the
LED lighting.
I remember seeing that with a washing machine (under fluorescent
lights). As the tub was slowing down, the row of holes around
the tub
would appear to reverse direction. Same thing with (spoked)
wagon wheels
in movies.

It looks absolutely ridiculous with modern cars with LED
headlights in films. How hard can it be to put a smoothing
capacitor on the output of the power supply?

It's easy but that isn't the point. The most efficient way of
driving to make maximium power into the LED means yuo have to
pulse the LED's. Using a capcitor to smooth out the DC is yet
another mode of inefficincy as it would get warm due to current
flow. Indictors in series might be better but then you run the risk
of 'radio' interference.

Being inefficient would presumably make it impossible to get enough
brightness out of LEDs that fit into the lamp holder. The LEDs would
get too hot trying to give out enough brightness for a car headlight.

However cars vary a lot, some are easy to detect flickering, some
difficult, and some impossible (with the naked eye). Perhaps they
just use a higher frequency?

Taillights are pretty bad on a lot of cars, as they dim the
brakelights by deliberately flickering them.

Either you have eyes that are way more sensitive to this or you're in
a
country that uses different car lights than here in the USA. There
are a lot of cars with LED lighting, headlights and rear lights, and
I've never noticed this flickering, nor have I ever heard it mentioned
before this thread. I haven't noticed flickering from any LED lights
I've used either.

I can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT monitor, but not on a 90Hz one, so
that'll give you an idea on how good my eyes are.

Can you see flicker on tailliights if you scan your eyes across the
scene?

Like I said, I haven't noticed it in the driving I've done. Nor have I
heard anyone else mention it. Next time I come across a car that has
LEDs I'll look more closely and see if I can see anything. If just
scanning reveals it, you;d think a lot of people would be noticing it.
Scanning is a part of driving.

I'd estimate about 1 in 5 people can see it,

Its nothing like that high and we know that because nothing
like that many saw any flickering with fluorescent lights.

Er.... most people I know can see fluorescent flicker. It doesn't annoy most of them, but they can detect it. One in five people I know could see 60Hz monitor flickering. And about the same can see car lights flickering.

similar to how many can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT computer monitor.

Nothing even remotely like 1 in 5 can see that.

You must know some people with really ****ty eyesight. I noticed that more people who were younger and/or didn't wear specs could see the flicker.

Don't most cars have LEDs now? Or does your area have a lot of older
cars? People (stupidly) around here seem to like cars that are no more
than 10 years old. I don't think many cars after 2008 had bulbs.

Searching for "LED tail light flicker" without the quotes in google
produces 4.5 million results!

On 2018-12-20 2:38 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:04:01 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:13:52 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 12:07:40 PM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:25:22 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:29:53 AM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:57:01 -0000, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 December 2018 16:35:05 UTC, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:21:41 -0000, Mark Lloyd

wrote:

On 12/19/18 6:01 AM, William Gothberg wrote:

[snip]

They probably are fairly crude.* I know they flicker, for
example if I
use my cordless drill, the chuck appears to spin the wrong
way
under the
LED lighting.
I remember seeing that with a washing machine (under
fluorescent
lights). As the tub was slowing down, the row of holes around
the tub
would appear to reverse direction. Same thing with (spoked)
wagon wheels
in movies.

It looks absolutely ridiculous with modern cars with LED
headlights in films.* How hard can it be to put a smoothing
capacitor on the output of the power supply?

It's easy but that isn't the point. The most efficient way of
driving to make maximium power* into the LED means yuo have to
pulse the LED's. Using a capcitor to smooth out the DC is yet
another mode of inefficincy as it would get warm due to current
flow. Indictors in series might be better but then you run the
risk
of 'radio' interference.

Being inefficient would presumably make it impossible to get enough
brightness out of LEDs that fit into the lamp holder.* The LEDs
would
get too hot trying to give out enough brightness for a car
headlight.

However cars vary a lot, some are easy to detect flickering, some
difficult, and some impossible (with the naked eye).* Perhaps they
just use a higher frequency?

Taillights are pretty bad on a lot of cars, as they dim the
brakelights by deliberately flickering them.

Either you have eyes that are way more sensitive to this or
you're in
a
country that uses different car lights than here in the USA.* There
are a lot of cars with LED lighting, headlights and rear lights, and
I've never noticed this flickering, nor have I ever heard it
mentioned
before this thread.* I haven't noticed flickering from any LED
lights
I've used either.

I can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT monitor, but not on a 90Hz one, so
that'll give you an idea on how good my eyes are.

Can you see flicker on tailliights if you scan your eyes across the
scene?

Like I said, I haven't noticed it in the driving I've done.* Nor have I
heard anyone else mention it.* Next time I come across a car that has
LEDs I'll look more closely and see if I can see anything.* If just
scanning reveals it, you;d think a lot of people would be noticing it.
Scanning is a part of driving.

I'd estimate about 1 in 5 people can see it,

Its nothing like that high and we know that because nothing
like that many saw any flickering with fluorescent lights.

Er.... most people I know can see fluorescent flicker.* It doesn't annoy
most of them, but they can detect it.* One in five people I know could
see 60Hz monitor flickering.* And about the same can see car lights
flickering.

similar to how many can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT computer monitor.

Nothing even remotely like 1 in 5 can see that.

You must know some people with really ****ty eyesight.* I noticed that
more people who were younger and/or didn't wear specs could see the
flicker.

Don't most cars have LEDs now?* Or does your area have a lot of older
cars?* People (stupidly) around here seem to like cars that are no more
than 10 years old.* I don't think many cars after 2008 had bulbs.

Searching for "LED tail light flicker" without the quotes in google
produces 4.5 million results!

the same thing happens when i type your name and add the words gutless idgit

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:35:49 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:11:36 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor, they'd reduce their flicker.

Wont work at all if they use capacitor droppers and

I made a few of those to power LEDs to indicate the function of my central
heating. I'm looking inside the flickery lamp just now (£15, 20W).
Without undoing the glue holding the PSU onto the inside of it, all I can
see is probably: the mains going through a large bipolar cap, a tiny
resistor (to discharge it safely?), a bridge rectifier, another very large
resister (to limit the LED current more accurately?), then a 400V 4.7uF
capacitor (which is bulged).

A capacitor dropper with a rectifier and smoothing capacitor after it?

Yep, that's what it is.

The one I made has no smoothing cap, just mains to cap to resistor to
bridge to LED.

Yeah, not need for one if you don't mind the 100Hz flicker.

It was just indicator LEDs to tell me what water circuit was running. 3 zones from the one boiler switched with valves.

Perhaps this bulged cap is why I'm getting flicker, I'll try replacing it
tomorrow.

they very likely do because those are the only cheap
droppers for dropping such a large voltage.

Aren't miniature SMPS units pretty cheap?

Not as cheap as the cap and the bridge rectifier.

I just bought a 12V 6A SMPS for £4.50.

Yeah, I did too.

Designed for powering LEDs

Mine will run anything 12V. I currently use it to power a water pump.

It was sold for LEDs, presumably it will run anything provided I don't exceed the 6A.

However I've noticed they scrimp on the caps (or cooling). Loads of them get bulged caps after a while, in particular a 3A PSU I ran 2A of LEDs 24/7 from, failed in 1 year. It kept cutting out - I discovered the bulk capacitor had dried out. Same happened (over a longer period) with two monitor PSUs.

The LEDs I use are all Hues and have their
own power supply with the led strips.

The one I mentioned above was for an insectocuter, I removed the flours and ballast and fitted strips of UV LEDs instead.

- but I've looked inside it and it's definitely a switched mode, not a
capacitor dropper. Now this flickery LED lamp I'm looking inside, it's
about 20W, so 12V at 2A is all that's required, it could have had an SMPS
in it similar to the one I just described.

Yeah, but the cap and bridge are cheaper.

Well I've got 9W £4 strips with a switched mode PSU in them, so they can't cost that much.

I'm now looking inside one of the better LED lamps (the non-flickery
model). It has a basic SMPS inside it. They're 9W and £4 each for the
whole lamp. I'm sure it's more than just a standard SMPS though, because
when some LEDs fail short circuit (it has about 40 in series), the voltage
coming from the PSU drops, to maintain the correct current for the
remaining good LEDs.

Yeah, its best to drive leds in constant current mode.

I'm surprised that the LEDs always fail short circuit, new type of LED designed to do this?

And I think the LED failures are due to heat. I now run them with the diffuser covers off to let them be cooler. I get more light out of them too, and I think they look better when you can see all the dots.

Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

Looks like it would help the better ones, but not the crap one.

In fact capacitor dropper ones wont work at all when fed DC.

Agreed.

Better (as I only have a few crap ones) to stick a bigger smoothing cap
inside those.

Yep as long as it will fit.

They're huge inside, massive space. "Corn on the cob LED lights" they're called. I could literally fit a cap about 50 times the size of the one that's in it. It's probably enough smoothing with the original size, I can't remember if it flickered when I bought it. But clearly the cap was overworked as it failed, so I'll fit something larger so it lasts longer this time.

For the good ones, the only problem I can foresee with the external
smoother, is overloading the lamp's bridge rectifier, as it will only be
conducting on two of the four diodes.

Should still be fine, most bridges in that situation are used
very conservitably and the diodes are rated for the initial
turn on surge current.

There's a current limiting resistor before them.

If I was to go ahead, I think I'd run one on the bench and check the temperature of the diodes in normal operation. If they're not very warm then they won't mind double the current.

Don't those diodes handle surges anyway? I mean a 3A diode will take way more than that for a fraction of a second. It's the heat that kills them. So why don't they just fit what they need to instead of bigger ones?

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:40:48 -0000, % wrote:

On 2018-12-20 2:38 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:04:01 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:13:52 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 12:07:40 PM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:25:22 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:29:53 AM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:57:01 -0000, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 December 2018 16:35:05 UTC, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:21:41 -0000, Mark Lloyd

wrote:

On 12/19/18 6:01 AM, William Gothberg wrote:

[snip]

They probably are fairly crude. I know they flicker, for
example if I
use my cordless drill, the chuck appears to spin the wrong
way
under the
LED lighting.
I remember seeing that with a washing machine (under
fluorescent
lights). As the tub was slowing down, the row of holes around
the tub
would appear to reverse direction. Same thing with (spoked)
wagon wheels
in movies.

It looks absolutely ridiculous with modern cars with LED
headlights in films. How hard can it be to put a smoothing
capacitor on the output of the power supply?

It's easy but that isn't the point. The most efficient way of
driving to make maximium power into the LED means yuo have to
pulse the LED's. Using a capcitor to smooth out the DC is yet
another mode of inefficincy as it would get warm due to current
flow. Indictors in series might be better but then you run the
risk
of 'radio' interference.

Being inefficient would presumably make it impossible to get enough
brightness out of LEDs that fit into the lamp holder. The LEDs
would
get too hot trying to give out enough brightness for a car
headlight.

However cars vary a lot, some are easy to detect flickering, some
difficult, and some impossible (with the naked eye). Perhaps they
just use a higher frequency?

Taillights are pretty bad on a lot of cars, as they dim the
brakelights by deliberately flickering them.

Either you have eyes that are way more sensitive to this or
you're in
a
country that uses different car lights than here in the USA. There
are a lot of cars with LED lighting, headlights and rear lights, and
I've never noticed this flickering, nor have I ever heard it
mentioned
before this thread. I haven't noticed flickering from any LED
lights
I've used either.

I can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT monitor, but not on a 90Hz one, so
that'll give you an idea on how good my eyes are.

Can you see flicker on tailliights if you scan your eyes across the
scene?

Like I said, I haven't noticed it in the driving I've done. Nor have I
heard anyone else mention it. Next time I come across a car that has
LEDs I'll look more closely and see if I can see anything. If just
scanning reveals it, you;d think a lot of people would be noticing it.
Scanning is a part of driving.

I'd estimate about 1 in 5 people can see it,

Its nothing like that high and we know that because nothing
like that many saw any flickering with fluorescent lights.

Er.... most people I know can see fluorescent flicker. It doesn't annoy
most of them, but they can detect it. One in five people I know could
see 60Hz monitor flickering. And about the same can see car lights
flickering.

similar to how many can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT computer monitor.

Nothing even remotely like 1 in 5 can see that.

You must know some people with really ****ty eyesight. I noticed that
more people who were younger and/or didn't wear specs could see the
flicker.

Don't most cars have LEDs now? Or does your area have a lot of older
cars? People (stupidly) around here seem to like cars that are no more
than 10 years old. I don't think many cars after 2008 had bulbs.

Searching for "LED tail light flicker" without the quotes in google
produces 4.5 million results!

the same thing happens when i type your name and add the words gutless idgit

Cite link.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:25:45 -0000, % wrote:

On 2018-12-20 1:56 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:40:26 -0000, % wrote:

On 2018-12-20 1:30 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:11:36 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor, they'd reduce their flicker.

Wont work at all if they use capacitor droppers and

I made a few of those to power LEDs to indicate the function of my
central heating. I'm looking inside the flickery lamp just now (£15,
20W). Without undoing the glue holding the PSU onto the inside of it,
all I can see is probably: the mains going through a large bipolar cap,
a tiny resistor (to discharge it safely?), a bridge rectifier, another
very large resister (to limit the LED current more accurately?), then a
400V 4.7uF capacitor (which is bulged). A capacitor dropper with a
rectifier and smoothing capacitor after it? The one I made has no
smoothing cap, just mains to cap to resistor to bridge to LED. Perhaps
this bulged cap is why I'm getting flicker, I'll try replacing it
tomorrow.

they very likely do because those are the only cheap
droppers for dropping such a large voltage.

Aren't miniature SMPS units pretty cheap? I just bought a 12V 6A SMPS
for £4.50. Designed for powering LEDs - but I've looked inside it and
it's definitely a switched mode, not a capacitor dropper. Now this
flickery LED lamp I'm looking inside, it's about 20W, so 12V at 2A is
all that's required, it could have had an SMPS in it similar to the one
I just described.

I'm now looking inside one of the better LED lamps (the non-flickery
model). It has a basic SMPS inside it. They're 9W and £4 each for the
whole lamp. I'm sure it's more than just a standard SMPS though,
because when some LEDs fail short circuit (it has about 40 in series),
the voltage coming from the PSU drops, to maintain the correct current
for the remaining good LEDs.

Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

Looks like it would help the better ones, but not the crap one. Better
(as I only have a few crap ones) to stick a bigger smoothing cap inside
those. For the good ones, the only problem I can foresee with the
external smoother, is overloading the lamp's bridge rectifier, as it
will only be conducting on two of the four diodes.

The cheap **** LED lamp I have that actually flashes at 100Hz would
most
likely get much brighter and burn out, so I'd have to adjust that,
but the
others which only flicker 8% would just get 4% brighter.

you could use being 4 % brighter

That would make my IQ 140.

Was the above too difficult for you to discuss?

I Q's are the lamest oldest forgotten tests of them all ,

You're just jealous.

are you excited this is going to be how usenet is for you for the next
20 - 30 years

Be more specific.

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:04:01 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:13:52 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 12:07:40 PM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:25:22 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:29:53 AM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:57:01 -0000, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 December 2018 16:35:05 UTC, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:21:41 -0000, Mark Lloyd

wrote:

On 12/19/18 6:01 AM, William Gothberg wrote:

[snip]

They probably are fairly crude. I know they flicker, for
example if I
use my cordless drill, the chuck appears to spin the wrong
way
under the
LED lighting.
I remember seeing that with a washing machine (under
fluorescent
lights). As the tub was slowing down, the row of holes around
the tub
would appear to reverse direction. Same thing with (spoked)
wagon wheels
in movies.

It looks absolutely ridiculous with modern cars with LED
headlights in films. How hard can it be to put a smoothing
capacitor on the output of the power supply?

It's easy but that isn't the point. The most efficient way of
driving to make maximium power into the LED means yuo have to
pulse the LED's. Using a capcitor to smooth out the DC is yet
another mode of inefficincy as it would get warm due to current
flow. Indictors in series might be better but then you run the
risk
of 'radio' interference.

Being inefficient would presumably make it impossible to get enough
brightness out of LEDs that fit into the lamp holder. The LEDs
would
get too hot trying to give out enough brightness for a car
headlight.

However cars vary a lot, some are easy to detect flickering, some
difficult, and some impossible (with the naked eye). Perhaps they
just use a higher frequency?

Taillights are pretty bad on a lot of cars, as they dim the
brakelights by deliberately flickering them.

Either you have eyes that are way more sensitive to this or you're
in
a
country that uses different car lights than here in the USA. There
are a lot of cars with LED lighting, headlights and rear lights, and
I've never noticed this flickering, nor have I ever heard it
mentioned
before this thread. I haven't noticed flickering from any LED
lights
I've used either.

I can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT monitor, but not on a 90Hz one, so
that'll give you an idea on how good my eyes are.

Can you see flicker on tailliights if you scan your eyes across the
scene?

Like I said, I haven't noticed it in the driving I've done. Nor have I
heard anyone else mention it. Next time I come across a car that has
LEDs I'll look more closely and see if I can see anything. If just
scanning reveals it, you;d think a lot of people would be noticing it.
Scanning is a part of driving.

I'd estimate about 1 in 5 people can see it,

Its nothing like that high and we know that because nothing
like that many saw any flickering with fluorescent lights.

Er.... most people I know can see fluorescent flicker. It doesn't annoy
most of them, but they can detect it.

Don't believe it. I did have someone at work who could
see it and was asking about how to get it fixed but no
one else could see what she was talking about.

One in five people I know could see 60Hz monitor flickering.

Don't believe that either and I never had anyone complaining about it.

And about the same can see car lights flickering.

Don't believe that either and clearly the designers can't.

similar to how many can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT computer monitor.

Nothing even remotely like 1 in 5 can see that.

You must know some people with really ****ty eyesight.

I'm talking about everyone at work. NOT ONE could see that.

I noticed that more people who were younger and/or didn't wear specs could
see the flicker.

Don't buy that either. None of the kids could see it.

Don't most cars have LEDs now? Or does your area have a lot of older
cars? People (stupidly) around here seem to like cars that are no more
than 10 years old. I don't think many cars after 2008 had bulbs.

Searching for "LED tail light flicker" without the quotes in google
produces 4.5 million results!

On 2018-12-20 2:48 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:35:49 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:11:36 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor, they'd reduce their flicker.

Wont work at all if they use capacitor droppers and

I made a few of those to power LEDs to indicate the function of my
central
heating.* I'm looking inside the flickery lamp just now (£15, 20W).
Without undoing the glue holding the PSU onto the inside of it, all I
can
see is probably: the mains going through a large bipolar cap, a tiny
resistor (to discharge it safely?), a bridge rectifier, another very
large
resister (to limit the LED current more accurately?), then a 400V 4.7uF
capacitor (which is bulged).

A capacitor dropper with a rectifier and smoothing capacitor after it?

Yep, that's what it is.

The one I made has no smoothing cap, just mains to cap to resistor to
bridge to LED.

Yeah, not need for one if you don't mind the 100Hz flicker.

It was just indicator LEDs to tell me what water circuit was running.* 3
zones from the one boiler switched with valves.

Perhaps this bulged cap is why I'm getting flicker, I'll try
replacing it
tomorrow.

they very likely do because those are the only cheap
droppers for dropping such a large voltage.

Aren't miniature SMPS units pretty cheap?

Not as cheap as the cap and the bridge rectifier.

I just bought a 12V 6A SMPS for £4.50.

Yeah, I did too.

Designed for powering LEDs

Mine will run anything 12V. I currently use it to power a water pump.

It was sold for LEDs, presumably it will run anything provided I don't
exceed the 6A.

However I've noticed they scrimp on the caps (or cooling).* Loads of
them get bulged caps after a while, in particular a 3A PSU I ran 2A of
LEDs 24/7 from, failed in 1 year.* It kept cutting out - I discovered
the bulk capacitor had dried out.* Same happened (over a longer period)
with two monitor PSUs.

The LEDs I use are all Hues and have their
own power supply with the led strips.

The one I mentioned above was for an insectocuter, I removed the flours
and ballast and fitted strips of UV LEDs instead.

- but I've looked inside it and it's definitely a switched mode, not a
capacitor dropper.* Now this flickery LED lamp I'm looking inside, it's
about 20W, so 12V at 2A is all that's required, it could have had an
SMPS
in it similar to the one I just described.

Yeah, but the cap and bridge are cheaper.

Well I've got 9W £4 strips with a switched mode PSU in them, so they
can't cost that much.

I'm now looking inside one of the better LED lamps (the non-flickery
model).* It has a basic SMPS inside it.* They're 9W and £4 each for the
whole lamp.* I'm sure it's more than just a standard SMPS though,
because
when some LEDs fail short circuit (it has about 40 in series), the
voltage
coming from the PSU drops, to maintain the correct current for the
remaining good LEDs.

Yeah, its best to drive leds in constant current mode.

I'm surprised that the LEDs always fail short circuit, new type of LED
designed to do this?

And I think the LED failures are due to heat.* I now run them with the
diffuser covers off to let them be cooler.* I get more light out of them
too, and I think they look better when you can see all the dots.

Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

Looks like it would help the better ones, but not the crap one.

In fact capacitor dropper ones wont work at all when fed DC.

Agreed.

Better (as I only have a few crap ones) to stick a bigger smoothing cap
inside those.

Yep as long as it will fit.

They're huge inside, massive space.* "Corn on the cob LED lights"
they're called.* I could literally fit a cap about 50 times the size of
the one that's in it.* It's probably enough smoothing with the original
size, I can't remember if it flickered when I bought it.* But clearly
the cap was overworked as it failed, so I'll fit something larger so it
lasts longer this time.

For the good ones, the only problem I can foresee with the external
smoother, is overloading the lamp's bridge rectifier, as it will only be
conducting on two of the four diodes.

Should still be fine, most bridges in that situation are used
very conservitably and the diodes are rated for the initial
turn on surge current.

There's a current limiting resistor before them.

If I was to go ahead, I think I'd run one on the bench and check the
temperature of the diodes in normal operation.* If they're not very warm
then they won't mind double the current.

Don't those diodes handle surges anyway?* I mean a 3A diode will take
way more than that for a fraction of a second.* It's the heat that kills
them.* So why don't they just fit what they need to instead of bigger ones?

trimmers , you need trimmers

On 2018-12-20 2:48 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:40:48 -0000, % wrote:

On 2018-12-20 2:38 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:04:01 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:13:52 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 12:07:40 PM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:25:22 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:29:53 AM UTC-5, William
Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:57:01 -0000, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 December 2018 16:35:05 UTC, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:21:41 -0000, Mark Lloyd

wrote:

On 12/19/18 6:01 AM, William Gothberg wrote:

[snip]

They probably are fairly crude.* I know they flicker, for
example if I
use my cordless drill, the chuck appears to spin the wrong
way
under the
LED lighting.
I remember seeing that with a washing machine (under
fluorescent
lights). As the tub was slowing down, the row of holes
around
the tub
would appear to reverse direction. Same thing with (spoked)
wagon wheels
in movies.

It looks absolutely ridiculous with modern cars with LED
headlights in films.* How hard can it be to put a smoothing
capacitor on the output of the power supply?

It's easy but that isn't the point. The most efficient way of
driving to make maximium power* into the LED means yuo have to
pulse the LED's. Using a capcitor to smooth out the DC is yet
another mode of inefficincy as it would get warm due to current
flow. Indictors in series might be better but then you run the
risk
of 'radio' interference.

Being inefficient would presumably make it impossible to get
enough
brightness out of LEDs that fit into the lamp holder.* The LEDs
would
get too hot trying to give out enough brightness for a car
headlight.

However cars vary a lot, some are easy to detect flickering, some
difficult, and some impossible (with the naked eye).* Perhaps
they
just use a higher frequency?

Taillights are pretty bad on a lot of cars, as they dim the
brakelights by deliberately flickering them.

Either you have eyes that are way more sensitive to this or
you're in
a
country that uses different car lights than here in the USA.
There
are a lot of cars with LED lighting, headlights and rear
lights, and
I've never noticed this flickering, nor have I ever heard it
mentioned
before this thread.* I haven't noticed flickering from any LED
lights
I've used either.

I can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT monitor, but not on a 90Hz one, so
that'll give you an idea on how good my eyes are.

Can you see flicker on tailliights if you scan your eyes across the
scene?

Like I said, I haven't noticed it in the driving I've done.* Nor
have I
heard anyone else mention it.* Next time I come across a car that has
LEDs I'll look more closely and see if I can see anything.* If just
scanning reveals it, you;d think a lot of people would be noticing
it.
Scanning is a part of driving.

I'd estimate about 1 in 5 people can see it,

Its nothing like that high and we know that because nothing
like that many saw any flickering with fluorescent lights.

Er.... most people I know can see fluorescent flicker.* It doesn't annoy
most of them, but they can detect it.* One in five people I know could
see 60Hz monitor flickering.* And about the same can see car lights
flickering.

similar to how many can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT computer monitor.

Nothing even remotely like 1 in 5 can see that.

You must know some people with really ****ty eyesight.* I noticed that
more people who were younger and/or didn't wear specs could see the
flicker.

Don't most cars have LEDs now?* Or does your area have a lot of older
cars?* People (stupidly) around here seem to like cars that are no
more
than 10 years old.* I don't think many cars after 2008 had bulbs.

Searching for "LED tail light flicker" without the quotes in google
produces 4.5 million results!

the same thing happens when i type your name and add the words gutless
idgit

Cite link.

you don't know how to type your name , come off it

On 2018-12-20 2:48 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:25:45 -0000, % wrote:

On 2018-12-20 1:56 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 20:40:26 -0000, % wrote:

On 2018-12-20 1:30 p.m., William Gothberg wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:11:36 -0000, Rod Speed

wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in
message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor, they'd reduce their flicker.

Wont work at all if they use capacitor droppers and

I made a few of those to power LEDs to indicate the function of my
central heating.* I'm looking inside the flickery lamp just now (£15,
20W).* Without undoing the glue holding the PSU onto the inside of it,
all I can see is probably: the mains going through a large bipolar
cap,
a tiny resistor (to discharge it safely?), a bridge rectifier, another
very large resister (to limit the LED current more accurately?),
then a
400V 4.7uF capacitor (which is bulged).* A capacitor dropper with a
rectifier and smoothing capacitor after it?* The one I made has no
smoothing cap, just mains to cap to resistor to bridge to LED.
Perhaps
this bulged cap is why I'm getting flicker, I'll try replacing it
tomorrow.

they very likely do because those are the only cheap
droppers for dropping such a large voltage.

Aren't miniature SMPS units pretty cheap?* I just bought a 12V 6A SMPS
for £4.50.* Designed for powering LEDs - but I've looked inside it and
it's definitely a switched mode, not a capacitor dropper.* Now this
flickery LED lamp I'm looking inside, it's about 20W, so 12V at 2A is
all that's required, it could have had an SMPS in it similar to the
one
I just described.

I'm now looking inside one of the better LED lamps (the non-flickery
model).* It has a basic SMPS inside it.* They're 9W and £4 each for
the
whole lamp.* I'm sure it's more than just a standard SMPS though,
because when some LEDs fail short circuit (it has about 40 in series),
the voltage coming from the PSU drops, to maintain the correct current
for the remaining good LEDs.

Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

Looks like it would help the better ones, but not the crap one.
Better
(as I only have a few crap ones) to stick a bigger smoothing cap
inside
those.* For the good ones, the only problem I can foresee with the
external smoother, is overloading the lamp's bridge rectifier, as it
will only be conducting on two of the four diodes.

The cheap **** LED lamp I have that actually flashes at 100Hz would
most
likely get much brighter and burn out, so I'd have to adjust that,
but the
others which only flicker 8% would just get 4% brighter.

you could use being 4 % brighter

That would make my IQ 140.

Was the above too difficult for you to discuss?

I Q's are the lamest oldest forgotten tests of them all ,

You're just jealous.

are you excited this is going to be how usenet is for you for the next
20 - 30 years

Be more specific.

no and start getting used to the idea that i don't do what you order

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:50:21 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:04:01 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:13:52 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 12:07:40 PM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:25:22 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:29:53 AM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:57:01 -0000, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 December 2018 16:35:05 UTC, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:21:41 -0000, Mark Lloyd

wrote:

On 12/19/18 6:01 AM, William Gothberg wrote:

[snip]

They probably are fairly crude. I know they flicker, for
example if I
use my cordless drill, the chuck appears to spin the wrong
way
under the
LED lighting.
I remember seeing that with a washing machine (under
fluorescent
lights). As the tub was slowing down, the row of holes around
the tub
would appear to reverse direction. Same thing with (spoked)
wagon wheels
in movies.

It looks absolutely ridiculous with modern cars with LED
headlights in films. How hard can it be to put a smoothing
capacitor on the output of the power supply?

It's easy but that isn't the point. The most efficient way of
driving to make maximium power into the LED means yuo have to
pulse the LED's. Using a capcitor to smooth out the DC is yet
another mode of inefficincy as it would get warm due to current
flow. Indictors in series might be better but then you run the
risk
of 'radio' interference.

Being inefficient would presumably make it impossible to get enough
brightness out of LEDs that fit into the lamp holder. The LEDs
would
get too hot trying to give out enough brightness for a car
headlight.

However cars vary a lot, some are easy to detect flickering, some
difficult, and some impossible (with the naked eye). Perhaps they
just use a higher frequency?

Taillights are pretty bad on a lot of cars, as they dim the
brakelights by deliberately flickering them.

Either you have eyes that are way more sensitive to this or you're
in
a
country that uses different car lights than here in the USA. There
are a lot of cars with LED lighting, headlights and rear lights, and
I've never noticed this flickering, nor have I ever heard it
mentioned
before this thread. I haven't noticed flickering from any LED
lights
I've used either.

I can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT monitor, but not on a 90Hz one, so
that'll give you an idea on how good my eyes are.

Can you see flicker on tailliights if you scan your eyes across the
scene?

Like I said, I haven't noticed it in the driving I've done. Nor have I
heard anyone else mention it. Next time I come across a car that has
LEDs I'll look more closely and see if I can see anything. If just
scanning reveals it, you;d think a lot of people would be noticing it.
Scanning is a part of driving.

I'd estimate about 1 in 5 people can see it,

Its nothing like that high and we know that because nothing
like that many saw any flickering with fluorescent lights.

Er.... most people I know can see fluorescent flicker. It doesn't annoy
most of them, but they can detect it.

Don't believe it. I did have someone at work who could
see it and was asking about how to get it fixed but no
one else could see what she was talking about.

About 20 years ago I worked where everyone had a cheap 14" CRT monitor running at 60Hz. They really bugged me with the flicker. When I asked everyone about them, 80% couldn't see it, 10% said they were as annoyed as me, and 10% only saw it if they looked for it. For the 10% and the 10%, I bought some nice 90Hz Iiyama Vision Master Pro CRT monitors. They absolutely loved them. The other 80% couldn't see what the fuss was about, and most of them had specs or were older.

One in five people I know could see 60Hz monitor flickering.

Don't believe that either and I never had anyone complaining about it.

And about the same can see car lights flickering.

Don't believe that either and clearly the designers can't.

A quick google search shows many many people don't like car flicker. Millions of results.

similar to how many can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT computer monitor.

Nothing even remotely like 1 in 5 can see that.

You must know some people with really ****ty eyesight.

I'm talking about everyone at work. NOT ONE could see that.

What age group were they in?

I noticed that more people who were younger and/or didn't wear specs could
see the flicker.

Don't buy that either. None of the kids could see it.

Even a colleague who never noticed it before when he looked at one of the new 90Hz monitors immediately remarked "that picture's really stable!"

Don't most cars have LEDs now? Or does your area have a lot of older
cars? People (stupidly) around here seem to like cars that are no more
than 10 years old. I don't think many cars after 2008 had bulbs.

Searching for "LED tail light flicker" without the quotes in google
produces 4.5 million results!

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:35:49 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:11:36 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor, they'd reduce their flicker.

Wont work at all if they use capacitor droppers and

I made a few of those to power LEDs to indicate the function of my
central
heating. I'm looking inside the flickery lamp just now (£15, 20W).
Without undoing the glue holding the PSU onto the inside of it, all I
can
see is probably: the mains going through a large bipolar cap, a tiny
resistor (to discharge it safely?), a bridge rectifier, another very
large
resister (to limit the LED current more accurately?), then a 400V 4.7uF
capacitor (which is bulged).

A capacitor dropper with a rectifier and smoothing capacitor after it?

Yep, that's what it is.

The one I made has no smoothing cap, just mains to cap to resistor to
bridge to LED.

Yeah, not need for one if you don't mind the 100Hz flicker.

It was just indicator LEDs to tell me what water circuit was running. 3
zones from the one boiler switched with valves.

Perhaps this bulged cap is why I'm getting flicker, I'll try replacing
it
tomorrow.

they very likely do because those are the only cheap
droppers for dropping such a large voltage.

Aren't miniature SMPS units pretty cheap?

Not as cheap as the cap and the bridge rectifier.

I just bought a 12V 6A SMPS for £4.50.

Yeah, I did too.

Designed for powering LEDs

Mine will run anything 12V. I currently use it to power a water pump.

It was sold for LEDs, presumably it will run anything provided I don't
exceed the 6A.

However I've noticed they scrimp on the caps (or cooling). Loads of them
get bulged caps after a while, in particular a 3A PSU I ran 2A of LEDs
24/7 from, failed in 1 year. It kept cutting out - I discovered the bulk
capacitor had dried out. Same happened (over a longer period) with two
monitor PSUs.

The LEDs I use are all Hues and have their
own power supply with the led strips.

The one I mentioned above was for an insectocuter, I removed the flours
and ballast and fitted strips of UV LEDs instead.

- but I've looked inside it and it's definitely a switched mode, not a
capacitor dropper. Now this flickery LED lamp I'm looking inside, it's
about 20W, so 12V at 2A is all that's required, it could have had an
SMPS
in it similar to the one I just described.

Yeah, but the cap and bridge are cheaper.

Well I've got 9W £4 strips with a switched mode PSU in them, so they can't
cost that much.

I'm now looking inside one of the better LED lamps (the non-flickery
model). It has a basic SMPS inside it. They're 9W and £4 each for the
whole lamp. I'm sure it's more than just a standard SMPS though,
because
when some LEDs fail short circuit (it has about 40 in series), the
voltage
coming from the PSU drops, to maintain the correct current for the
remaining good LEDs.

Yeah, its best to drive leds in constant current mode.

I'm surprised that the LEDs always fail short circuit, new type of LED
designed to do this?

Think its just the way leds fail naturally
with the higher powered lighting leds.

And I think the LED failures are due to heat. I now run them with the
diffuser covers off to let them be cooler. I get more light out of them
too, and I think they look better when you can see all the dots.

I'm not rapt in that result with the led strips,
particularly with the reflection off glass etc.
I havent gotten around to mounting them
properly yet, mainly because for some
reason Bunnings doesn't stock the
extrusions to mount them in in the
very long 3-4M strips and those arent
feasible to buy online in those lengths.
Bit too crude imo to have a series of 1M ones.

I do plan to have diffusers for those led
strips to fix the bright reflection of the
individual leds off the glass like the
front of the microwaves and wall oven
and windows.

Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

Looks like it would help the better ones, but not the crap one.

In fact capacitor dropper ones wont work at all when fed DC.

Agreed.

Better (as I only have a few crap ones) to stick a bigger smoothing cap
inside those.

Yep as long as it will fit.

They're huge inside, massive space. "Corn on the cob LED lights" they're
called.

I don't use those, use the Hue E27 bulbs.

I could literally fit a cap about 50 times the size of the one that's in
it. It's probably enough smoothing with the original size, I can't
remember if it flickered when I bought it. But clearly the cap was
overworked as it failed, so I'll fit something larger so it lasts longer
this time.

Might well just be a low quality cap, not over worked.
Rectifier caps don't get overworked when not enough uF.

For the good ones, the only problem I can foresee with the external
smoother, is overloading the lamp's bridge rectifier, as it will only be
conducting on two of the four diodes.

Should still be fine, most bridges in that situation are used
very conservitably and the diodes are rated for the initial
turn on surge current.

There's a current limiting resistor before them.

But the current rating would be vastly lower than the surge rating.

If I was to go ahead, I think I'd run one on the bench and check the
temperature of the diodes in normal operation.

They'll be fine at that current.

If they're not very warm then they won't mind double the current.

Don't those diodes handle surges anyway?

Yeah, the surge rating is massive.

I mean a 3A diode will take way more than that for a fraction of a second.

Yep.

It's the heat that kills them.

Not with bridges.

So why don't they just fit what they need to instead of bigger ones?

The bigger ones are the same price.

Its only when you got to the big ones
potted in a square aluminium thing with
a bolt hole in them that the price increases.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 08:04:01 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

Its nothing like that high and we know that because nothing
like that many saw any flickering with fluorescent lights.

similar to how many can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT computer monitor.

Nothing even remotely like 1 in 5 can see that.

Good Lord! Is this still about flickering lights, you ****ing stupid idiots?

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:50:21 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:04:01 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 17:13:52 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 12:07:40 PM UTC-5, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 16:25:22 -0000, trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, December 20, 2018 at 7:29:53 AM UTC-5, William
Gothberg
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 11:57:01 -0000, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 December 2018 16:35:05 UTC, William Gothberg
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:21:41 -0000, Mark Lloyd

wrote:

On 12/19/18 6:01 AM, William Gothberg wrote:

[snip]

They probably are fairly crude. I know they flicker, for
example if I
use my cordless drill, the chuck appears to spin the wrong
way
under the
LED lighting.
I remember seeing that with a washing machine (under
fluorescent
lights). As the tub was slowing down, the row of holes
around
the tub
would appear to reverse direction. Same thing with (spoked)
wagon wheels
in movies.

It looks absolutely ridiculous with modern cars with LED
headlights in films. How hard can it be to put a smoothing
capacitor on the output of the power supply?

It's easy but that isn't the point. The most efficient way of
driving to make maximium power into the LED means yuo have to
pulse the LED's. Using a capcitor to smooth out the DC is yet
another mode of inefficincy as it would get warm due to current
flow. Indictors in series might be better but then you run the
risk
of 'radio' interference.

Being inefficient would presumably make it impossible to get
enough
brightness out of LEDs that fit into the lamp holder. The LEDs
would
get too hot trying to give out enough brightness for a car
headlight.

However cars vary a lot, some are easy to detect flickering, some
difficult, and some impossible (with the naked eye). Perhaps
they
just use a higher frequency?

Taillights are pretty bad on a lot of cars, as they dim the
brakelights by deliberately flickering them.

Either you have eyes that are way more sensitive to this or you're
in
a
country that uses different car lights than here in the USA.
There
are a lot of cars with LED lighting, headlights and rear lights,
and
I've never noticed this flickering, nor have I ever heard it
mentioned
before this thread. I haven't noticed flickering from any LED
lights
I've used either.

I can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT monitor, but not on a 90Hz one, so
that'll give you an idea on how good my eyes are.

Can you see flicker on tailliights if you scan your eyes across the
scene?

Like I said, I haven't noticed it in the driving I've done. Nor have
I
heard anyone else mention it. Next time I come across a car that has
LEDs I'll look more closely and see if I can see anything. If just
scanning reveals it, you;d think a lot of people would be noticing
it.
Scanning is a part of driving.

I'd estimate about 1 in 5 people can see it,

Its nothing like that high and we know that because nothing
like that many saw any flickering with fluorescent lights.

Er.... most people I know can see fluorescent flicker. It doesn't annoy
most of them, but they can detect it.

Don't believe it. I did have someone at work who could
see it and was asking about how to get it fixed but no
one else could see what she was talking about.

About 20 years ago I worked where everyone had a cheap 14" CRT monitor
running at 60Hz. They really bugged me with the flicker. When I asked
everyone about them, 80% couldn't see it, 10% said they were as annoyed as
me, and 10% only saw it if they looked for it. For the 10% and the 10%, I
bought some nice 90Hz Iiyama Vision Master Pro CRT monitors. They
absolutely loved them. The other 80% couldn't see what the fuss was
about, and most of them had specs or were older.

One in five people I know could see 60Hz monitor flickering.

Don't believe that either and I never had anyone complaining about it.

And about the same can see car lights flickering.

Don't believe that either and clearly the designers can't.

A quick google search shows many many people don't like car flicker.
Millions of results.

similar to how many can see flicker on a 60Hz CRT computer monitor.

Nothing even remotely like 1 in 5 can see that.

You must know some people with really ****ty eyesight.

I'm talking about everyone at work. NOT ONE could see that.

What age group were they in?

All of the, everything from those straight out
of school to those who were about to retire.
And the kids of many of them as well.

I noticed that more people who were younger and/or didn't wear specs
could
see the flicker.

Don't buy that either. None of the kids could see it.

Even a colleague who never noticed it before when he looked at one of the
new 90Hz monitors immediately remarked "that picture's really stable!"

Don't most cars have LEDs now? Or does your area have a lot of older
cars? People (stupidly) around here seem to like cars that are no
more
than 10 years old. I don't think many cars after 2008 had bulbs.

Searching for "LED tail light flicker" without the quotes in google
produces 4.5 million results!

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 08:50:21 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


I'm talking about everyone at work. NOT ONE could see that.

ROTFLOL! You have no work, you unemployable, 85-year-old, decrepit senile
troll! ONLY people you could talk to (but they OBVIOUSLY refuse to talk to
you) are your room mates in your old people's home! LOL

--
Marland addressing bull****ting senile Rot:
"Stay in your wet paper bag you thick twit."
MID:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 08:35:49 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH all the unbelievably idiotic drivel by the two prize idiots

....and nothing's left!

--
about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 22:14:31 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 21:35:49 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:



"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 19:11:36 -0000, Rod Speed
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William wrote in message
news On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 09:36:02 -0000, Jon Fairbairn
wrote:

"William Gothberg" "William writes:
Agreed. All I can detect (with my digital camera) is that
one brand of LED light I have flickers about 5 times less
(not sure if it's smother or faster) than the others.

Try a longer exposure and move the light rapidly relative to the
camera.

I wonder, if I fed the lamps with mains voltage DC, simply a bridge
rectifier and a huge capacitor, they'd reduce their flicker.

Wont work at all if they use capacitor droppers and

I made a few of those to power LEDs to indicate the function of my
central
heating. I'm looking inside the flickery lamp just now (£15, 20W).
Without undoing the glue holding the PSU onto the inside of it, all I
can
see is probably: the mains going through a large bipolar cap, a tiny
resistor (to discharge it safely?), a bridge rectifier, another very
large
resister (to limit the LED current more accurately?), then a 400V 4..7uF
capacitor (which is bulged).

A capacitor dropper with a rectifier and smoothing capacitor after it?

Yep, that's what it is.

The one I made has no smoothing cap, just mains to cap to resistor to
bridge to LED.

Yeah, not need for one if you don't mind the 100Hz flicker.

It was just indicator LEDs to tell me what water circuit was running. 3
zones from the one boiler switched with valves.

Perhaps this bulged cap is why I'm getting flicker, I'll try replacing
it
tomorrow.

they very likely do because those are the only cheap
droppers for dropping such a large voltage.

Aren't miniature SMPS units pretty cheap?

Not as cheap as the cap and the bridge rectifier.

I just bought a 12V 6A SMPS for £4.50.

Yeah, I did too.

Designed for powering LEDs

Mine will run anything 12V. I currently use it to power a water pump..

It was sold for LEDs, presumably it will run anything provided I don't
exceed the 6A.

However I've noticed they scrimp on the caps (or cooling). Loads of them
get bulged caps after a while, in particular a 3A PSU I ran 2A of LEDs
24/7 from, failed in 1 year. It kept cutting out - I discovered the bulk
capacitor had dried out. Same happened (over a longer period) with two
monitor PSUs.

The LEDs I use are all Hues and have their
own power supply with the led strips.

The one I mentioned above was for an insectocuter, I removed the flours
and ballast and fitted strips of UV LEDs instead.

- but I've looked inside it and it's definitely a switched mode, not a
capacitor dropper. Now this flickery LED lamp I'm looking inside, it's
about 20W, so 12V at 2A is all that's required, it could have had an
SMPS
in it similar to the one I just described.

Yeah, but the cap and bridge are cheaper.

Well I've got 9W £4 strips with a switched mode PSU in them, so they can't
cost that much.

I'm now looking inside one of the better LED lamps (the non-flickery
model). It has a basic SMPS inside it. They're 9W and £4 each for the
whole lamp. I'm sure it's more than just a standard SMPS though,
because
when some LEDs fail short circuit (it has about 40 in series), the
voltage
coming from the PSU drops, to maintain the correct current for the
remaining good LEDs.

Yeah, its best to drive leds in constant current mode.

I'm surprised that the LEDs always fail short circuit, new type of LED
designed to do this?

Think its just the way leds fail naturally
with the higher powered lighting leds.

What's quite weird is with the decent strips I've got, the LEDs are wired in pairs. Each pair is in parallel, then there are 20 such pairs in series. When one single LED fails, I'd expect either it shorts and the neighbouring one in the pair gets 0 volts, or it fails open circuit and the neighbouring one gets double current and soon dies. But neither happens. The neighbouring LED stays lit at the same brightness. Any idea how this is possible? Could the dead LED still have the same current going through it?

And I think the LED failures are due to heat. I now run them with the
diffuser covers off to let them be cooler. I get more light out of them
too, and I think they look better when you can see all the dots.

I'm not rapt in that result with the led strips,
particularly with the reflection off glass etc.
I havent gotten around to mounting them
properly yet, mainly because for some
reason Bunnings doesn't stock the
extrusions to mount them in in the
very long 3-4M strips and those arent
feasible to buy online in those lengths.
Bit too crude imo to have a series of 1M ones.

I use something like these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183429947350

All I need is to screw a small clip every 2 feet into the ceiling, and have a plug with 240V at the end. The strips plug into each other as many as I need, and just clip onto the clips.

I do plan to have diffusers for those led
strips to fix the bright reflection of the
individual leds off the glass like the
front of the microwaves and wall oven
and windows.

Not sure why that would be a problem, I quite like those reflections. Same kinda idea as people liking bright halogen uplighters instead of a more even light throughout the room.

If I wanted a more even light, I'd have to keep the diffusers on, but the LEDs don't last so long. I guess I could dim them a bit instead.

Very easy to try tho and see if it works.

Looks like it would help the better ones, but not the crap one.

In fact capacitor dropper ones wont work at all when fed DC.

Agreed.

Better (as I only have a few crap ones) to stick a bigger smoothing cap
inside those.

Yep as long as it will fit.

They're huge inside, massive space. "Corn on the cob LED lights" they're
called.

I don't use those, use the Hue E27 bulbs.

I only have a couple, to fit into existing bayonet fittings, but most of my house is now the strips I linked to above. Also means nothing hangs down from the ceiling and can get knocked. Plus since the light comes from the whole strip, no shadows from myself when I'm trying to work on something.

I could literally fit a cap about 50 times the size of the one that's in
it. It's probably enough smoothing with the original size, I can't
remember if it flickered when I bought it. But clearly the cap was
overworked as it failed, so I'll fit something larger so it lasts longer
this time.

Might well just be a low quality cap, not over worked.
Rectifier caps don't get overworked when not enough uF.

Maybe it's not a low ESR cap? Maybe the high temperature in there shortens its life? Same thing happens in my PSUs for monitors.

For the good ones, the only problem I can foresee with the external
smoother, is overloading the lamp's bridge rectifier, as it will only be
conducting on two of the four diodes.

Should still be fine, most bridges in that situation are used
very conservitably and the diodes are rated for the initial
turn on surge current.

There's a current limiting resistor before them.

But the current rating would be vastly lower than the surge rating.

If I was to go ahead, I think I'd run one on the bench and check the
temperature of the diodes in normal operation.

They'll be fine at that current.

If they're not very warm then they won't mind double the current.

Don't those diodes handle surges anyway?

Yeah, the surge rating is massive.

I mean a 3A diode will take way more than that for a fraction of a second.

Yep.

It's the heat that kills them.

Not with bridges.

So why don't they just fit what they need to instead of bigger ones?

The bigger ones are the same price.

Its only when you got to the big ones
potted in a square aluminium thing with
a bolt hole in them that the price increases.