Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor. Also heat
CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than
ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if
running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be
running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry) One reason
Chrysler was using composite pistons for several years in the early
no-asbestos days (until they found the pistons swelled and stuck - - -
)
They used to be a bitch to get out.

To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private
vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were
NO brakes. I got the police shoes because I was all into it. What a
difference! When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful. They
are designed and built to endure punishment. Try and go to the dealer and
get the model, good luck with that. Watch what happens on one of the police
shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end. The actors can't
make the corner because they got no brakes. Or the engine expires. Something
is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit
there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there
were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training*


--
Tekkie

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:02:37 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

The tests were limited - addressing the use a cruiser puts the brakes
to. If you know how to read the information, it tells you a LOT about
the brakes - but you are correct - there is no "best" brake material -
it depends onthe use they are being put to, and what YOU want from
them. There may well , however, be " WORST" brakes.

Exactly. You've been right all along while I was hoping beyond hope that
there is an intelligent way to select a good/better/best brake pad.

You were right. I was wrong.

If you have two pads in your hands, or two on the net, you can't make an
intelligent choice between them, other than to know if they're the same or
not, and to know who made them, and to know what their cold and hot
friction coefficients are.

That's it.

Each pad can be different - but you have no way of knowing that from the
pad itself.

If brakes require higher pedal pressure to stop in a longer distance
(and decellerate at a lower rate) both when cold and at normal
temperature, and fade significantly on the second and third
application - they are pretty crappy brakes.

Nobody complained about fade in that one report we have, did they?
I don't think we have any better "fade" test than the Chase value for hot
friction (which was E or F depending on the pads tested).

So, while fade is important - it's a useless criteria since we have no way
of knowing the fade.

It's just silly to bring up all the things that *can* happen if you have no
way of choosing between them when the pads are in your very hands.

I don't disagree with you that two pads can be vastly different, but you
have no way of knowing anything other than their tested friction, their
manufacturer, and whether two pads are exactly the same material.

That's all you've got since brands are almost meaningless (e.g., PBR, Axxis
and Metalmasters are the same company) and semi-metallic/metalic/ceramic
marketing is even more meaningless.

If they require low pedal pressure to decellerate quickly to a stop in
a short distance when both cold and at normaltemperatures, AND do not
fade appreciably on the second and third (panic) stop - they are
pretty darn good brakes - anlness they squeal like a stuck pig, only
last for a month of driving, and/or destroy brake rotors - and/or coat
the wheels with nasty corrosive brake dust - - -

All well and good, but it's like predicting that a baby will become the
president of the United States.

No, not at all - you are TOTALLY missing the point.
The different brake PAD materials are mission specific.
A ceramic pad will outstop a economy organic pad when hot - hands
down. Every time.

Let's just agree to disagree since you don't seem to realize what I know
from talking to the Axxis marketing guy that the word 'ceramic' is a
bull**** marketing term.

Do you think I don't call these marketing guys up?
Do I seem like someone who doesn't ask pointed questions?

Ceramic is complete and total marketing bull****.
The marketing guy told me himself.

(Yes, I see the difficulty of position that puts me in.)

A metallic pad will usually stop better after several panic stops, or
when towing a heavy trailer down a longhill - than either the organic
or the ceramic. Both the semi metallic and the organic will stop
better on a cold stop than a ceramic.

Let's agree to disagree.
You believe in marketing.
I don't.

I believe in specifications.
No. a $85 Thermoquiet Ceramic will stop better than a $20 no-name
organic pad - and you can be pretty well assured you will not get a
$20 ceramic pad unless Rock Auto has something on clearout.

Let's agree to disagree.

You think price has some impact on performance.
I will prove to you that I can show exact same products with different
branding but the exact same price.

Everyone loves a number-line decision, whether it's good/better/best of
metallic/semi-metallic/ceramic or $10/$20/$30 or 3-year/4-year-/5-year
warranty, but none of that indicates a better or worse object.

Only specifications do, and we just don't know much about the spec other
than who made the pad, the code for the exact formulation, and the
friction.

Everything else is bull****.

Price is not a sure predictor of quality - but can be a pretty darn
good indicator.

Price is an indicator of demand only. Demand is influenced by a ****load of
factors. You know that. I know that. Let's not argue it. That's what
Economics 101 was for, and I already took that and passed it.

Also, a high iron semi metallic WILL wear out your rotors faster than
either the organic or the ceramic unless the organic causes the rotor
to blister because of uneven pad material transfer, and abuse.

If you truly know the "hardness", then of course it matters.
But you have no way of knowing the hardness.
Do you?

What you TOTALLY do NOT understand is how disc brakes, in particular,
work - and how the co-efficient of friction changes.

I think I do understand how disc brakes work, but we can discuss what you
think I don't understand.

What I know is that your energy of movement has to be converted into
something else, most notably heat. Lots and lots of heat.

When you "bed in" pads, you are burnishiung a thin coating of pad
material into the finish of the rotor..

Yup. Pad deposition. Something about covalent bonds making and breaking
under the heat of braking, where the breaking of the bonds elicits heat.

It gets complex HOW the heat is generated (it's not just 'friction'), but
the end result is heat. Lots and lots of heat.

The stopping power of the
brake depends on the co-efficient of friction between this burnished
in friction material and the pad - not between the pad and bare metal.

The Ameca engineer already explained the burnished pads that the Michegan
study used where he said it was to get rid of the volatile gases that come
out of the first few heat cycles.

How this coating is applied, and maintained, dictated the braking
charachteristics of a disc brake as much as anything.

Yup. We all know how to property bed our brakes.
I doubt many shops do it though, because it requires a lot of room and a
few very hard almost stops where, if there is traffic, it ain't easy to do.

I'll wager that few, if any, shops properly bed the pads.
But you'd have that experience because I've never been to a mechanic.

If you stop hard
and fast and keep your foot onthe pedal at a stop untill the brake
cooles,there will be a heavier deposit on the rotor at that point -
UNLESS the padmaterial deposited on the rotor does not adhere properly
and it pulls away with the pad. Either way you will end up with uneven
braking - either a "thump" or a "skip" on the next brake application.

NEVER, and I mean NEVER leave your foot on the pedal after a hard stop!
Everyone knows this, so I know you know this.
It's the worst thing you can do, unless you love to have judder every few
thousand miles as that ped deposition collects more pad over time.

I never understood why, but once a pad print, always a pad print.
And it only gets worse.

Unless you re-bed the brakes - which everyone knows - so you're preaching
to the choir on even brake pad deposition techniques.

A "quality": pad will transfer evenly and bond reliably to the rotor
during the perscribed "bed-in" and will not cause uneven transfer
under "normal" driving conditions. It will also not cause or promote
corrosion between that pad mnaterial and the rotor steel (which causes
"scabbies" and pitted rotors (often mistaken for the less common, but
sometimes "real" "warped rotor".

Yes. But. I have no good way of knowing a quality pad from a not quality
pad. So it's moot.

It's like me picking out the best students in a class based on whether they
wear glasses or not.

Total bull****. The friction rating doesn't tell you much, but the
difference in required pedal pressure, and the difference in stopping
distance - notto mention the difference in pad temperature between the
best and worst in the test is VERY significant.

It's significant in one thing. Pedal pressure.
If pedal pressure is your gig - then it's significant.
If pedal pressure isn't your gig, then it's not significant.

The pedal pressure changed about 100%, from roughly less than ten foot
pounds to less than twenty foot pounds in the lower-speed tests for
example.

What's 10 foot pounds?
Dunno when it's pressing on a pedal, but if that's important, then you have
to buy a police cruiser and put those pads on it - because it doesn't tell
you anything about your car unless it's a police cruiser.

What is NOT significant is the predictabiklity of the results based
on the frictionrating of the pads under test. (almost totally useless)

Yup. We agree. There is no useful data other than the AMECA code and even
that isn't meant for the consumer.

And do your friend a favour and send them to a REAL mechanic to have
their brake work done. I fear you are DANGEROUS.

Knowledge is dangerous.
Logic is dangerous.
Thinking is dangerous.

Having someone else do all that for you, is dangerous.
The mechanic doesn't give a **** about you or your brake pads.

All the mechanic cares about is your money, and getting as much of that as
possible, in the least time possible, so he'll skip steps like you can't
believe.

I'm on car forums where there are complaints galore about mechanics
skipping half the steps in anything because they don't give a **** about
anything but money.

The only way to do it right is to do it yourself, is my motto.

You can disagree (and you almost certainly will), but you can't disagree
that I'm trying to make an intelligent decision on which brake shoes to
buy, and that I probably know them as well as any mechanic who *thinks* he
knows them - but he doesn't - because he can't.

Nobody can but the guy who submitted them for their Chase test.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:01:47 -0500,
Tekkie+AK4- wrote:

To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private
vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were
NO brakes.

I've never experienced such fade in my life, and I drive a performance car,
where I've driven down many a long hill. I don't know why I have never
experienced brake fade, but I know it exists. I just have never felt it.

But I've never put in less than FF pads either.

That may or may not be related - we can't tell. It's just a datum.

I got the police shoes because I was all into it.

What's a "police shoe"?

The police report from Michigan tested "regular" shoes only.

What a difference!

If there was a difference, it's hard to tell because nobody (except the
police in Michigan it seems) tests *new* pads against *new* pads (after
burnishing).

You probably didn't as nobody does.

You probably tested *old* pads against *new* pads, and even if you did test
apples to apples, it's not extensible to "my" car or to anyone else's car.

That's the problem with tiny experiments of a single datapoint.

When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful.

What the heck is a "pursuit certified vehicle"?
I drove an EMT vehicle many times. It drove like a truck.

They are designed and built to endure punishment.

Like any performance vehicle on the road today?

Try and go to the dealer and
get the model, good luck with that.

Don't even know what it is.
Is it a souped up police cruiser?

Watch what happens on one of the police
shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end.

That's not a good scientific test.

The actors can't
make the corner because they got no brakes. Or the engine expires. Something
is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit
there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there
were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training*

I have been trained to drive an ambulance.
Know what they taught me?

a. Defensive driving
b. Noise pollution is bad
c. Laws (nobody is allowed to break the law in that state, not even
ambulances)

I think in some states emergency vehicles *are* allowed to break the law,
but not in that state where I drove the ambulance. Of course, nobody is
going to give you a ticket either, but if you kill someone while breaking
the law, the onus is on you.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 12:23:01 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Pad vibration - which has an effect on gas venting, counterd by the
effect of reduced pad contact

That makes sense that the outgassing of pad A can be vastly different than
that of pad B, and, in fact, they "burnished" the pads in the police test
to minimize the initial presumed-far-greater effect of that as the
adhesives heated up for the first time and vented gases.

May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor.

Occam's Razor logic tells us that only one of 2 things is happening:
a. There is a huge as-yet-unnamed second-order effect, or,
b. There is a combination that results in a huge second-order effect.

That there is a huge second-order effect (after friction), there can be no
logical doubt.

But what is the 2nd-order effect's cause and can we test for it?

Also heat
CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than
ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if
running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be
running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry).

Two Occam's Razor points on that observation above, which is correct.

1. While this vehicle specs DOT3, I'll put in DOT4 instead.
2. Metal versus semi-metallic versus ceramic is marketing bull****

I know there are no laws that differentiate between metal, ceramic, and
semi-metallic - as I've personally spoken to the people who make the
Axxis/PBR/Metalmasters pads. They told me it's all bull**** only they said
it far more politely and less succinctly than I just did.

Suffice to repeat that a spec of dust makes a pad ceramic, just as a spec
of iron makes it semi-metallic.

I posit marketing came up with these wonderful good/better/best number-line
decisions for people since people (like Terry Schartz seems to be) want a
simple number line instead of those oh-so-very-complex quality
specifications.

Where's Jeff Liebermann when you need him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 07:54:12 -0800 (PST),
Terry Schwartz wrote:

Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad......

I get your point, even ensconced inside the sarcasm, so I'll just say it
bluntly that I do realize 99.99% of the people out there do not care that
they're completely unable to intelligently purchase things using a modicum
of logic.

These people all want a "number line" decision, where they can use the
good, better, best by "marketing derived" criteria, such as silly words
like "ceramic" (where one spec of clay makes it a ceramic) and
"semi-metallic" (where one spec of iron makes it metallic).

You're one of those people, most likely (based on Occam's Razor deduction),
and that's fine.

You *think* you're intelligently choosing a brake pad, and that's fine too.

You may even buy by one of the three marketing-induced criteria:
a. If you're cost conscious, you buy the cheapest FF that fits.
b. If you're value conscious, you buy the mid FFs (with a small price bump)
c. If you're status conscious, you buy the high FFs (bigger price jump)

I'm not like you.
I like to *understand* that which I buy.

That's my take on the main difference between you and me base on the one
line you wrote.

I like to make intelligent buying decisions.
You apparently don't care to - and that's fine.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:27:23 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Metallic pads are more aggressive than ceramics and organics (and they
are harsher on rotors and noisier)
Ceramics last longer and dust less - and stop better than organics,
but are not as effective when cold as metallics.
Ceramics can have small amounts of iron, steel, copper, or brass in
them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw
copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads -
leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials.

Except that Axxis marketing told me, personally, that all these words are
marketing bull**** (he used nicer terms than that).

Do you think I don't call these people up when I have their numbers?

You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous
materials with a magnet.

Hmmmmhmmmhmmm... this is interesting. I like it! If the test works, that's
a nice test. I'm gonna have to bring a magnet with me to the web when I
look them up online!

Seriously though, it's nice if the pad is in your hands. I'll bring a
magnet with me if I end up buying them from the parts store. And I can test
the old shoes and pads when I take them off.

Good idea if it works.
Can others concur it works?

The MAJOR companies - I'm not talking your second and third tier
"boutique" rmarketers likw those favourite brands of yours - do
SIGNIFICANT reasearch and engineering, often develloping specific
friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The
Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly
different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota.

The Ameca engineer talked about 1st tier but he wouldn't tell me which
companies that is, so I don't know what you know.

He did say that aftermarket makes only a handful of formulations that they
fit to all cars.

You decide which characteristics are impoetant to you - extreme high
speed performance at the expense of life and quiet and dusting, or
silence, long rotor life, and low cost at the expense of high speed
performance and pad life, or good all-round performance, pad life, and
rotor life at a significantly higher cost to decide if you want
semi-metallic, organic, or ceramic pads, then you go to a trusted
reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex
rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever
technology meets your desires.

That's like saying you decide the characteristics of a wife, and then go
and marry her. It's not extrapolatable with the information you have.

It's just not.

And you seem to buy on a number line, like most people, and that's fine,
for you. I like to buy by specs, and they just don't exist.

SO I'm ****ed.

I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the
required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having
to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts.

Of course. That's a given that the hardware needed is there, and that it
fits. In the case of the Toyota drums, the only hardware needed for sure is
the U clip which has to be bent. The OE pads come also with circular
retainers.

Engineering isn't bull****. As an "engineer" you should appreciate
that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks.

You missed what I said, or I didn't say it right.
Specifications are not bull****.
Marketing spin is bull****.

The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all
"science" is).

The science is only in the hands of the formulators.
Nobody else has access to that science.

When you buy from Rock Auto, you are USUALLY buying prime product that
came off someone's shelf when they went out of business, or warehouse
overstock, or "open box" product, or product with damaged packaging
due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke
damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally
getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar.

This is good to know because Rock Auto has really low prices!
They were so low, they scared me. That's how low they were.

No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of
ignorance.

I don't have any paranoia. You *think* I do, and that's fine.
But I don't.
I just don't trust marketing as much as you seem to trust them.

WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for
Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc?

That's a good question. The AMECA engineer said only the OEMs spend the
immense time to get the formulation right. So that would say that, if you
like what the OEMs did for you, that you should pay the $157 for OEM FF
shoes and not the $20 for aftermarket FF shoes.

They do NOT design and manufacture the stuff themselves. They have
that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond,
etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket
and OEM REplacement .

In the case of Toyota, it's Nisshinbo Automotive Manufacturing, Inc.

But you bring up a good point, which is what the AMECA engineer said, which
is to buy "regionally" if you don't go OEM.

His algorithm was to buy a brand from the same region as where your OE
shoes were made. If OE is from Germany, then buy a German-built pad. If OE
is Japanese, then buy a Japanese pad.

He didn't explain in detail why, but his point may be the same as yours,
which is that there aren't a whole lotta' manufacturers out there, but
luckily, with the AMECA Edge Code, we know the manufacturer of *every*
brake pad out there, and the code for the specific material.

Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER
understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a
field totally outside your reralm.

I *hate* not being able to make an intelligent choice based on
specifications. I just hate it.

And, you just can't make an intelligent choice based on specifications for
brake pads because all you really know are who made it, what it's friction
is, and whether the compound is exactly the same as another.

That's not enough to make an intelligent comparison.
And you never will have the capability to test them scientifically.

So we're all blind - although most people don't seem to realize they're
blind.

When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc
from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting.

I've had Jurid, Textar, Akebono, and PBR on my car.
They're all the same to me.
The first week they feel vastly differently, then the same forever more.

The first week, we're comparing old pads to new pads, mind you.

And if you are any kind of an engineer you KNOW that you have
oversimplified that last statement
A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different
speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind
resistance due to size.

Yes. I know. Everyone knows that. Even non engineers.
But my point is that it wasn't obvious until Gallileo tested it.
So millions of people thought otherwise, because intuitively it seems that
it woudl be the case.

You knew that. A feather and a bowling ball will fall differently, in air,
but the same in a vacuum. We all know that.

My only point there was that intuition is almost always wrong.
Anyone who trust their intuition, is almost always wrong.

Don't even get me started on high-octane claims in commercials.......

There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately
sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal
speeds under normal conditions. - For a while.

Yup.
That's the only logical conclusion anyone can make using Occam's Razor.

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:28 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 17:01:47 -0500,
Tekkie+AK4- wrote:

To Madman: When I was early in emergency services I used to run my private
vehicle. I had to pay attention to braking because after 3 stops there were
NO brakes.

I've never experienced such fade in my life, and I drive a performance car,
where I've driven down many a long hill. I don't know why I have never
experienced brake fade, but I know it exists. I just have never felt it.

But I've never put in less than FF pads either.

That may or may not be related - we can't tell. It's just a datum.

I got the police shoes because I was all into it.

What's a "police shoe"?

The police report from Michigan tested "regular" shoes only.
The shoes they tested were premium and heavy duty (all of the FF and
FG were "heavy duty" pads.

On Persuit rated vehicles they oftern also have larger rotors and
drums - as well as different tires, and even different RIMS to allow
bwtter brake cooling. Never wondered why cruisers have "dog dish" hub
caps instead of full wheel covers??? To allow the brakes to "breath"
better.

What a difference!

If there was a difference, it's hard to tell because nobody (except the
police in Michigan it seems) tests *new* pads against *new* pads (after
burnishing).

You probably didn't as nobody does.

You probably tested *old* pads against *new* pads, and even if you did test
apples to apples, it's not extensible to "my" car or to anyone else's car.


I can say without reservation that the "police duty" and severe duty
brakes were MUCH better at high speeds than standard brakes (and
sometimes not nearly as good when cold/low speed) 1 1966 Dodge Polara
Pursuit Special I drove for a short time went like a scalded cat, and
stopped like you had jammed a stick into a hole in the pavement.


That's the problem with tiny experiments of a single datapoint.

When I got a pursuit certified vehicle it was wonderful.

What the heck is a "pursuit certified vehicle"?
I drove an EMT vehicle many times. It drove like a truck.

They are designed and built to endure punishment.

Like any performance vehicle on the road today?

Try and go to the dealer and
get the model, good luck with that.

Don't even know what it is.
Is it a souped up police cruiser?

Yes.

Watch what happens on one of the police
shows. See which car is destroyed or smoking at the end.

That's not a good scientific test.

The actors can't
make the corner because they got no brakes. Or the engine expires. Something
is to be said when one goes from 0 to 40 then 40 to 0 repeatedly and sit
there idling for the next 1/2 hour then going to the next call. Then there
were the ambulances and fire trucks. *Training*

I have been trained to drive an ambulance.
Know what they taught me?

a. Defensive driving
b. Noise pollution is bad
c. Laws (nobody is allowed to break the law in that state, not even
ambulances)

I think in some states emergency vehicles *are* allowed to break the law,
but not in that state where I drove the ambulance. Of course, nobody is
going to give you a ticket either, but if you kill someone while breaking
the law, the onus is on you.


Todays persuit special vehicles are often the big ecoboost engine on
fords, and Hemis on Chargers. Often with a "special tune" that raises
the rev limiter setting and reprograms the tranny shift points - as
well as having bigger rads, bigger alternators, honking big sway bars
and super-duty shocks and springs.

On 1/15/18 8:28 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
[ Lot's of stupid repetitive **** deleted ]

On the rare occasions I do my own brakes, I use either NAPA,
Warner or OEM parts. Not whatever is cheapest at Auto Zone,
JC Whitney or Pep Boys.

The rest of the time I just take the vehicle to a reputable
mechanic and tell him what I want. It gets done right.

All your blathering is like arguing with your doctor, "But I
read on Facebook (or WebMD)."


--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:28 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 12:23:01 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Pad vibration - which has an effect on gas venting, counterd by the
effect of reduced pad contact

That makes sense that the outgassing of pad A can be vastly different than
that of pad B, and, in fact, they "burnished" the pads in the police test
to minimize the initial presumed-far-greater effect of that as the
adhesives heated up for the first time and vented gases.

May not be a HUGE difference, but it is possibly a factor.

Occam's Razor logic tells us that only one of 2 things is happening:
a. There is a huge as-yet-unnamed second-order effect, or,
b. There is a combination that results in a huge second-order effect.

That there is a huge second-order effect (after friction), there can be no
logical doubt.

But what is the 2nd-order effect's cause and can we test for it?

Also heat
CONDUCTANCE - metallic pads conduct more heat to the caliper than
ceramice - making the boiling point of the fluid more critical (if
running metallic or semi-metalic pads you want to be sure to be
running DOT4, not DOT3, and you want it freash and dry).

Two Occam's Razor points on that observation above, which is correct.

1. While this vehicle specs DOT3, I'll put in DOT4 instead.
2. Metal versus semi-metallic versus ceramic is marketing bull****

Most definitely is NOT marketing Bull****. It is solid engineering

I know there are no laws that differentiate between metal, ceramic, and
semi-metallic - as I've personally spoken to the people who make the
Axxis/PBR/Metalmasters pads. They told me it's all bull**** only they said
it far more politely and less succinctly than I just did.

You speak mandarin, do you?
There may not be "legal" definitions, but there are industry accepted
definitions - and I've sent you numerous referencesthat spell them out
pretty clearly. Yes, there are "hybrids" that sort of bridge the gap -
but MOST of them are identified as such.

Suffice to repeat that a spec of dust makes a pad ceramic, just as a spec
of iron makes it semi-metallic.

Most definirely not. There is a small percentage of metal even in
organic pads, and the metal does not need to be iron. And "ceramic"
has nothing to do with "dust".

A ceramic is a vitified clay base which may or may not have metals
also included. A ceramic does not use phenol;ic binders.

Again - READ the stuff I posted for you.

I posit marketing came up with these wonderful good/better/best number-line
decisions for people since people (like Terry Schartz seems to be) want a
simple number line instead of those oh-so-very-complex quality
specifications.


You are being a paranoid simleton.
Where's Jeff Liebermann when you need him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:29 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 07:54:12 -0800 (PST),
Terry Schwartz wrote:

Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad......

I get your point, even ensconced inside the sarcasm, so I'll just say it
bluntly that I do realize 99.99% of the people out there do not care that
they're completely unable to intelligently purchase things using a modicum
of logic.

These people all want a "number line" decision, where they can use the
good, better, best by "marketing derived" criteria, such as silly words
like "ceramic" (where one spec of clay makes it a ceramic) and
"semi-metallic" (where one spec of iron makes it metallic).

You're one of those people, most likely (based on Occam's Razor deduction),
and that's fine.

You *think* you're intelligently choosing a brake pad, and that's fine too.

And YOU think YOU are smart. (nobody else does - sorry to break your
bubble)

You may even buy by one of the three marketing-induced criteria:
a. If you're cost conscious, you buy the cheapest FF that fits.
b. If you're value conscious, you buy the mid FFs (with a small price bump)
c. If you're status conscious, you buy the high FFs (bigger price jump)


and if you are SMART you buy the type of pad that matches
yourdriving requirements - which for most commuters is a standard
organic pad, for heavy duty use, a semi metallioc, and for high speed
light duty, generally a ceramic.
I'm not like you.
I like to *understand* that which I buy.

And yet you most certainly do NOT when it comes to brakes. You are
totally clueless and uneducatable

That's my take on the main difference between you and me base on the one
line you wrote.

I like to make intelligent buying decisions.
You apparently don't care to - and that's fine.
and you seem to be totally incapable of it.

On 16/01/2018 1:48 PM, Fox's Mercantile wrote:
On 1/15/18 8:28 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
Â* [ Lot's of stupid repetitive **** deleted ]

On the rare occasions I do my own brakes, I use either NAPA,
Warner or OEM parts. Not whatever is cheapest at Auto Zone,
JC Whitney or Pep Boys.

The rest of the time I just take the vehicle to a reputable
mechanic and tell him what I want. It gets done right.

All your blathering is like arguing with your doctor, "But I
read on Facebook (or WebMD)."


May the Lord save us from those who *think* they know!

--

Xeno

On 16/01/2018 1:58 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:10:29 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 07:54:12 -0800 (PST),
Terry Schwartz wrote:

Yes we know, it's soooooooo sad......

I get your point, even ensconced inside the sarcasm, so I'll just say it
bluntly that I do realize 99.99% of the people out there do not care that
they're completely unable to intelligently purchase things using a modicum
of logic.

These people all want a "number line" decision, where they can use the
good, better, best by "marketing derived" criteria, such as silly words
like "ceramic" (where one spec of clay makes it a ceramic) and
"semi-metallic" (where one spec of iron makes it metallic).

You're one of those people, most likely (based on Occam's Razor deduction),
and that's fine.

You *think* you're intelligently choosing a brake pad, and that's fine too.

And YOU think YOU are smart. (nobody else does - sorry to break your
bubble)

I caught on to that very early in the piece. That's why I deduced that
discussion with mad roger was not a fruitful use of my time.

As you have discovered.

You may even buy by one of the three marketing-induced criteria:
a. If you're cost conscious, you buy the cheapest FF that fits.
b. If you're value conscious, you buy the mid FFs (with a small price bump)
c. If you're status conscious, you buy the high FFs (bigger price jump)


and if you are SMART you buy the type of pad that matches
yourdriving requirements - which for most commuters is a standard
organic pad, for heavy duty use, a semi metallioc, and for high speed
light duty, generally a ceramic.
I'm not like you.
I like to *understand* that which I buy.

And yet you most certainly do NOT when it comes to brakes. You are
totally clueless and uneducatable

Amen to that! Just wants to argue the toss, that is all.

That's my take on the main difference between you and me base on the one
line you wrote.

I like to make intelligent buying decisions.
You apparently don't care to - and that's fine.
and you seem to be totally incapable of it.

He is.

--

Xeno

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:28:52 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:27:23 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Metallic pads are more aggressive than ceramics and organics (and they
are harsher on rotors and noisier)
Ceramics last longer and dust less - and stop better than organics,
but are not as effective when cold as metallics.
Ceramics can have small amounts of iron, steel, copper, or brass in
them -as can "organics The tree-huggers in Cali are trying to outlaw
copper bwcause it kills alge etc in runoff water fromthe roads -
leaving us with the more agressive ferrous materials.

Except that Axxis marketing told me, personally, that all these words are
marketing bull**** (he used nicer terms than that).




from the PBR brake site :

PBR Axxis Metal Master Brake Pads, Ultimate Brake Pads, and Deluxe
Brake Pads

Note: The FMP Group Australia Pty. Ltd., is the manufacturer of Axxis
and PBR brand brake pads; these pads are identical.

Axxis Ultimate Brake Pads

Ultimate

The PBR Axxis Ultimate brake pads feature a special Kevlar® and
ceramic-strengthened formula with a high co-efficient of friction and
excellent high temperature wear and fade resistance. Designed for
ultra-high performance driving and hard-braking applications, PBR
Axxis Ultimate pad users will benefit with extreme stopping power and
high resistance to brake fade at high temperatures, meaning the
decrease in friction over repeated heavy duty stops, as the
temperature increases, is minimal. PBR Axxis Ultimate pads boast a
maximum continuous working temperature of 550° C (1022° F degrees).
Consistent throughout its operating temperature range, you’ll get
dependable, predictable stops time after time while maintaining a
solid pedal feel.



Axxis Metal Master

Metal Master


Metal Master: Non-asbestos, semi-metallic compound provides the
highest fade resistance among leading semi-met brake pads. They
deliver proven longer pad and rotor life, with low rotor scoring and
quiet braking.
•Designed for applications requiring the highest performance
•Premium quality, non-asbestos, semi-metallic formula
•Unique formula offers reduced brake dust, fade and squeal
•Provides the ultimate stopping power under all conditions
•Virtually eliminates squeal and dust
•Improved cold effectiveness
•Improved pad life

Axxis Deluxe

Deluxe

Exclusive OE equivalent organic compound provides outstanding stopping
power with very low fade. Extremely quiet with proven long pad and
rotor life and low rotor scoring. Provides measurably longer life and
has extreme resistance to heat while delivering consistent, smooth
braking performance.
•Formulated from the latest premium quality, organic materials
•Low dust, low squeal
•Delivers quality braking performance
•Rotor friendly
•Smooth stopping power
•Low dust and squeal
•Extended pad life

Get yourself a set of PBR Axxis Ultimate, Metal Master, or Deluxe pads
today! Brake pads! High Performance Brake Pads! Theres nothing
better for braking performance than a good brake pad.



So PBR makes 3 differentlines of brakes. One is sold as AXXIS
Ultimate, oneas Axxis Metal Master, and one as Axxis Deluxe. (Also
sold underthe PBR brand)

3 totally different pads for diufferent use - all spelled out on the
PBR brake products web site. If you spoke to a PBR marketing person
you spoke to an idiot who doesn't know their product line, and knows
even less about brakes. What you got from HIM WAS marketing bull****.



Do you think I don't call these people up when I have their numbers?

Whoever you called gave you VERY bad information.

You can tell if a ceramic or semi-metallic pad is using ferrous
materials with a magnet.

Hmmmmhmmmhmmm... this is interesting. I like it! If the test works, that's
a nice test. I'm gonna have to bring a magnet with me to the web when I
look them up online!

And you are still stupid enough to think you have to buy online -- I
just cannot figure you idiots out.

Seriously though, it's nice if the pad is in your hands. I'll bring a
magnet with me if I end up buying them from the parts store. And I can test
the old shoes and pads when I take them off.

But metallics are not NECESSARILLY magnetic - because they can be
copper or brass - and even ceramics can have some metal in them - as
can some organics. You just DON"T GET IT.

Good idea if it works.
Can others concur it works?

The MAJOR companies - I'm not talking your second and third tier
"boutique" rmarketers likw those favourite brands of yours - do
SIGNIFICANT reasearch and engineering, often develloping specific
friction materials (and combinations) for different vehicles. The
Wagner thermoquiet formulation on your Ford may be significantly
different than on your Dodge or GM, or Toyota.

The Ameca engineer talked about 1st tier but he wouldn't tell me which
companies that is, so I don't know what you know.

Get used to it.

He did say that aftermarket makes only a handful of formulations that they
fit to all cars.

Which is pure bull;**** when talking about tiuer one aftermarket
suppliers (which are also OEM suppliers in most cases)

You decide which characteristics are impoetant to you - extreme high
speed performance at the expense of life and quiet and dusting, or
silence, long rotor life, and low cost at the expense of high speed
performance and pad life, or good all-round performance, pad life, and
rotor life at a significantly higher cost to decide if you want
semi-metallic, organic, or ceramic pads, then you go to a trusted
reseller of a major brand - wagner, TRW, Akebono, Brakebond, Mintex
rtc and buy their premium (highest quality) set of whichever
technology meets your desires.

That's like saying you decide the characteristics of a wife, and then go
and marry her. It's not extrapolatable with the information you have.

It's just not.

And you seem to buy on a number line, like most people, and that's fine,
for you. I like to buy by specs, and they just don't exist.

I do NOT buy on a "number line" - I buy by spec. I buy organic, semi
metallic, or ceramic depending on what brake characteristics I need
and what I'm willing to pay.


SO I'm ****ed.

You've done it to yourself.

I say the "premium" set meaning the one that comes with all the
required clips, shims, pins, etc to do a proper install without having
to source other parts elsewhere or re-use sub-optimal used parts.

Of course. That's a given that the hardware needed is there, and that it
fits. In the case of the Toyota drums, the only hardware needed for sure is
the U clip which has to be bent. The OE pads come also with circular
retainers.

You keep going between pads and shoes. There is so much difference -
hardly oranges to oranges - barely apples to oranges - more like
rutabagas to apples.

Engineering isn't bull****. As an "engineer" you should appreciate
that anless you got your degree in a box of crackerjacks.

You missed what I said, or I didn't say it right.
Specifications are not bull****.
Marketing spin is bull****.

ANd I don't look at "marketing spin" I look at "real" specifications.
What KIND of brake material is it? Knowing the KIND of material I can
pretty accurately deduce the basic qualities of the brake product -
and knowing the manufacturer AND the composition, I can make a pretty
good deduction as to quality and suitability for my purpose. Without
any "number line" or "friction rating"
The SCIENCE is there. (mixed with a bit of black magic - as all
"science" is).

The science is only in the hands of the formulators.
Nobody else has access to that science.

When you buy from Rock Auto, you are USUALLY buying prime product that
came off someone's shelf when they went out of business, or warehouse
overstock, or "open box" product, or product with damaged packaging
due to fading from being on a shelf too long, moisture damage, smoke
damage, etc. When you buy "brand name" from them, you are generally
getting top quality genuine pruduct at pennies on the dollar.

This is good to know because Rock Auto has really low prices!
They were so low, they scared me. That's how low they were.

No, in your case it is shear paranoia, over a base layer of
ignorance.

I don't have any paranoia. You *think* I do, and that's fine.
But I don't.
I just don't trust marketing as much as you seem to trust them.

And where do you get the idea I trust "marketing"?????

WHo do you think engineers and manufactures the OEM brake material for
Ford, GM, Toyota,Chrysler, etc?

That's a good question. The AMECA engineer said only the OEMs spend the
immense time to get the formulation right. So that would say that, if you
like what the OEMs did for you, that you should pay the $157 for OEM FF
shoes and not the $20 for aftermarket FF shoes.

No, for the Toyota you buy Akebono brake shoes - the aftermarket
supplier that also produces the OEM brakes for a large percentage of
Toyota vehicles (Toyota generally "dual sources" all major parts that
the source from outside, like brakes, shoicks, lenses, bulbs, and
spark plugs. If one supplier has a problem they cut them off until the
problem is solved. (for spark plugs it was always either Nipon Denso
or NGK,, foir many parts like AC it was Aisin or Denso.

The MAJOR Tier one aftermarket suppliers are also major OEM
suppliers.

TRW, Walker,Monroe, Delphi, and a host of other manufacturers design
and build all kinds of parts for the OEM market - as well as the
aftermarket.

They do NOT design and manufacture the stuff themselves. They have
that done by the likes of Wagner, TRW, Akebone, American Brakebond,
etc. These are the major suppliers to BOTH the OEM and the aftermarket
and OEM REplacement .

In the case of Toyota, it's Nisshinbo Automotive Manufacturing, Inc.

That will be ONE of their brake suppliers.

But you bring up a good point, which is what the AMECA engineer said, which
is to buy "regionally" if you don't go OEM.

His algorithm was to buy a brand from the same region as where your OE
shoes were made. If OE is from Germany, then buy a German-built pad. If OE
is Japanese, then buy a Japanese pad.

He didn't explain in detail why, but his point may be the same as yours,
which is that there aren't a whole lotta' manufacturers out there, but
luckily, with the AMECA Edge Code, we know the manufacturer of *every*
brake pad out there, and the code for the specific material.

Don't be such a stiubborn paranoid "engineer". YOU will NEVER
understand EVERYTHING about your OWN field of expertise, muchless a
field totally outside your reralm.

I *hate* not being able to make an intelligent choice based on
specifications. I just hate it.

And, you just can't make an intelligent choice based on specifications for
brake pads because all you really know are who made it, what it's friction
is, and whether the compound is exactly the same as another.

That's not enough to make an intelligent comparison.
And you never will have the capability to test them scientifically.

So we're all blind - although most people don't seem to realize they're
blind.

When I buy Wagner or Akebono aftermarket OEM Replacement parts, etc
from a supplier like NAPA i KNOW what I am getting.

I've had Jurid, Textar, Akebono, and PBR on my car.
They're all the same to me.

Then what are yopu fussing about????????

The first week they feel vastly differently, then the same forever more.

The first week, we're comparing old pads to new pads, mind you.

And if you are any kind of an engineer you KNOW that you have
oversimplified that last statement
A 10 lb beach ball and a 10lb bowling ball WILL fall at a different
speed in free air. Youdidn't take into account the difference in wind
resistance due to size.

Yes. I know. Everyone knows that. Even non engineers.
But my point is that it wasn't obvious until Gallileo tested it.
So millions of people thought otherwise, because intuitively it seems that
it woudl be the case.

You knew that. A feather and a bowling ball will fall differently, in air,
but the same in a vacuum. We all know that.

My only point there was that intuition is almost always wrong.
Anyone who trust their intuition, is almost always wrong.

Not if their "intuition" is "educated"

Don't even get me started on high-octane claims in commercials.......

ANd you know NOTHING about octane and detonation - I'd be willing to
bet significantly on that one. (Few people do - the myths on that
subject are - well - "mythical".

Don't get started on that one unless you want to get TOTALLY
buried......

There are standards, and there are standards. Any pad legitimately
sold in North America wilkl stop your unloaded $ Runner at legal
speeds under normal conditions. - For a while.

Yup.
That's the only logical conclusion anyone can make using Occam's Razor.

Why use Ocam's razor - don't you have your own????

Seriously - you are making more assumtions than I am - therefore the
chances of your conclusions being correct are significantly less than
mine.

Not quite sure you fully understand "Ockham's Razor" either (also
known as Occams razor - not Ocams) - a theory first postulated by a
14th century mathemetician and Franciscan Friar by the name of William
of Ockham as part of his "unified field theory"

His principal is simply "Entities should not be multiplied
unnecessarily."

It has been expanded on by many others includingsuch natables as
Einstein

Like any sharp instrument -Ockhams razor should not be weilded
blindly - - - -

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 02:09:50 +0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 15:02:37 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

The tests were limited - addressing the use a cruiser puts the brakes
to. If you know how to read the information, it tells you a LOT about
the brakes - but you are correct - there is no "best" brake material -
it depends onthe use they are being put to, and what YOU want from
them. There may well , however, be " WORST" brakes.

Exactly. You've been right all along while I was hoping beyond hope that
there is an intelligent way to select a good/better/best brake pad.


You were right. I was wrong.

If you have two pads in your hands, or two on the net, you can't make an
intelligent choice between them, other than to know if they're the same or
not, and to know who made them, and to know what their cold and hot
friction coefficients are.


If I know my application jolly right I can

That's it.

Each pad can be different - but you have no way of knowing that from the
pad itself.

If brakes require higher pedal pressure to stop in a longer distance
(and decellerate at a lower rate) both when cold and at normal
temperature, and fade significantly on the second and third
application - they are pretty crappy brakes.

Nobody complained about fade in that one report we have, did they?
I don't think we have any better "fade" test than the Chase value for hot
friction (which was E or F depending on the pads tested).

You obviously did not read and absorb the details of the michigan
test. All the brake fade data is clearly there if you know how to read
the report.

So, while fade is important - it's a useless criteria since we have no way
of knowing the fade.

i CAN TELL YOU which brake pad is going to fade the worst, just
knowing the COMPOSITION of the pad - organic, semi-metallic, or
ceramic - particularly between products from the same manufacturer.
WHos ceramic is beter than whos is a different story - -0 -

It's just silly to bring up all the things that *can* happen if you have no
way of choosing between them when the pads are in your very hands.

I don't disagree with you that two pads can be vastly different, but you
have no way of knowing anything other than their tested friction, their
manufacturer, and whether two pads are exactly the same material.

I can know who made them and what market theyn are aimed at - which
gives me a lot more information than their 2 letter friction rating.

That's all you've got since brands are almost meaningless (e.g., PBR, Axxis
and Metalmasters are the same company) and semi-metallic/metalic/ceramic
marketing is even more meaningless.

You are a total MORON

AXXIS and PBR ARE the same company, but a PBR or AXXIS Metalmaster is
NOT the same as a PBR or AXXIS Delux or Advanced Ceramic - but
PBR/AXXIS has more marketing BS than many companies.

If they require low pedal pressure to decellerate quickly to a stop in
a short distance when both cold and at normaltemperatures, AND do not
fade appreciably on the second and third (panic) stop - they are
pretty darn good brakes - anlness they squeal like a stuck pig, only
last for a month of driving, and/or destroy brake rotors - and/or coat
the wheels with nasty corrosive brake dust - - -

All well and good, but it's like predicting that a baby will become the
president of the United States.

No, not at all - you are TOTALLY missing the point.
The different brake PAD materials are mission specific.
A ceramic pad will outstop a economy organic pad when hot - hands
down. Every time.

Let's just agree to disagree since you don't seem to realize what I know
from talking to the Axxis marketing guy that the word 'ceramic' is a
bull**** marketing term.

well, I know from dealing with brake application engineers and my
studies that "marketing guys" are generally like a dirty diaper.

Do you think I don't call these marketing guys up?
Do I seem like someone who doesn't ask pointed questions?

You seam like someone who doesan't know the questions to ask, doesn't
know when he's being snowed, and is so obvious that the marketing guys
know they can snow you and you won't know the difference. When you
need technical information you don't ask marketing - you ask
engineering - and you don't go in like a smartass - they can see right
through you.

Ceramic is complete and total marketing bull****.
The marketing guy told me himself.


The marketing guy doesn't know **** from shinola

(Yes, I see the difficulty of position that puts me in.)

A metallic pad will usually stop better after several panic stops, or
when towing a heavy trailer down a longhill - than either the organic
or the ceramic. Both the semi metallic and the organic will stop
better on a cold stop than a ceramic.

Let's agree to disagree.
You believe in marketing.
I don't.

I believe in specifications.
No. a $85 Thermoquiet Ceramic will stop better than a $20 no-name
organic pad - and you can be pretty well assured you will not get a
$20 ceramic pad unless Rock Auto has something on clearout.

Let's agree to disagree.

I'll agree to allow you to remain eternally clueless since you are
totally unteachable.

You think price has some impact on performance.
I will prove to you that I can show exact same products with different
branding but the exact same price.

Just like a dirty diaper.

AXXIS delux pads are the same as PBR delux pads, but are NOT the
same as AXXIS or PBR Metalmasters - and "Metalmaster" is not a company
or resller - it is a "model" or "type" iof pad marketted by AXXIS , a
devision of PBR PLC in Australia.

Everyone loves a number-line decision, whether it's good/better/best of
metallic/semi-metallic/ceramic or $10/$20/$30 or 3-year/4-year-/5-year
warranty, but none of that indicates a better or worse object.

A warranty is an insurance policy - not an indicator of quality. How
else do you explain a 10year warranty on the ****tiest cars to come
out of Japan - the Misu****ty. They can't sell their crap without a
10year warranty - and when the warranty is expired you can't sell one
- period.

Only specifications do, and we just don't know much about the spec other
than who made the pad, the code for the exact formulation, and the
friction.

Everything else is bull****.

Yad yada yada---------

Price is not a sure predictor of quality - but can be a pretty darn
good indicator.

Price is an indicator of demand only. Demand is influenced by a ****load of
factors. You know that. I know that. Let's not argue it. That's what
Economics 101 was for, and I already took that and passed it.

Also, a high iron semi metallic WILL wear out your rotors faster than
either the organic or the ceramic unless the organic causes the rotor
to blister because of uneven pad material transfer, and abuse.

If you truly know the "hardness", then of course it matters.
But you have no way of knowing the hardness.
Do you?

Sure I do

What you TOTALLY do NOT understand is how disc brakes, in particular,
work - and how the co-efficient of friction changes.

I think I do understand how disc brakes work, but we can discuss what you
think I don't understand.

What I know is that your energy of movement has to be converted into
something else, most notably heat. Lots and lots of heat.

When you "bed in" pads, you are burnishiung a thin coating of pad
material into the finish of the rotor..

Yup. Pad deposition. Something about covalent bonds making and breaking
under the heat of braking, where the breaking of the bonds elicits heat.

It gets complex HOW the heat is generated (it's not just 'friction'), but
the end result is heat. Lots and lots of heat.

The stopping power of the
brake depends on the co-efficient of friction between this burnished
in friction material and the pad - not between the pad and bare metal.

The Ameca engineer already explained the burnished pads that the Michegan
study used where he said it was to get rid of the volatile gases that come
out of the first few heat cycles.

Well, he was WRONG.

How this coating is applied, and maintained, dictated the braking
charachteristics of a disc brake as much as anything.

Yup. We all know how to property bed our brakes.
I doubt many shops do it though, because it requires a lot of room and a
few very hard almost stops where, if there is traffic, it ain't easy to do.

I'll wager that few, if any, shops properly bed the pads.
But you'd have that experience because I've never been to a mechanic.



If you stop hard
and fast and keep your foot onthe pedal at a stop untill the brake
cooles,there will be a heavier deposit on the rotor at that point -
UNLESS the padmaterial deposited on the rotor does not adhere properly
and it pulls away with the pad. Either way you will end up with uneven
braking - either a "thump" or a "skip" on the next brake application.

NEVER, and I mean NEVER leave your foot on the pedal after a hard stop!
Everyone knows this, so I know you know this.

Most certainly NOT everybody knows it.
It's the worst thing you can do, unless you love to have judder every few
thousand miles as that ped deposition collects more pad over time.

I never understood why, but once a pad print, always a pad print.
And it only gets worse.

Not neccesarily - If caught on time it is almost always reversible

Unless you re-bed the brakes - which everyone knows - so you're preaching
to the choir on even brake pad deposition techniques.

A "quality": pad will transfer evenly and bond reliably to the rotor
during the perscribed "bed-in" and will not cause uneven transfer
under "normal" driving conditions. It will also not cause or promote
corrosion between that pad mnaterial and the rotor steel (which causes
"scabbies" and pitted rotors (often mistaken for the less common, but
sometimes "real" "warped rotor".

Yes. But. I have no good way of knowing a quality pad from a not quality
pad. So it's moot.


You are a thickskulled and stubborn person - totally unteachable
It's like me picking out the best students in a class based on whether they
wear glasses or not.

Total bull****. The friction rating doesn't tell you much, but the
difference in required pedal pressure, and the difference in stopping
distance - notto mention the difference in pad temperature between the
best and worst in the test is VERY significant.

It's significant in one thing. Pedal pressure.
If pedal pressure is your gig - then it's significant.
If pedal pressure isn't your gig, then it's not significant.

The pedal pressure changed about 100%, from roughly less than ten foot
pounds to less than twenty foot pounds in the lower-speed tests for
example.

What's 10 foot pounds?
Dunno when it's pressing on a pedal, but if that's important, then you have
to buy a police cruiser and put those pads on it - because it doesn't tell
you anything about your car unless it's a police cruiser.

What is NOT significant is the predictabiklity of the results based
on the frictionrating of the pads under test. (almost totally useless)

Yup. We agree. There is no useful data other than the AMECA code and even
that isn't meant for the consumer.

And do your friend a favour and send them to a REAL mechanic to have
their brake work done. I fear you are DANGEROUS.



Knowledge is dangerous.
Logic is dangerous.
Thinking is dangerous.

Having someone else do all that for you, is dangerous.
The mechanic doesn't give a **** about you or your brake pads.

WRONG - his livelihhod depends on it

All the mechanic cares about is your money, and getting as much of that as
possible, in the least time possible, so he'll skip steps like you can't
believe.

Wrong. As a professional mechanic of long standing, with an
EXCELLENT reputation, I take that as a total affrront

I'm on car forums where there are complaints galore about mechanics
skipping half the steps in anything because they don't give a **** about
anything but money.

I've seen the same forums - and most of the compainers are just as
dumb as you are.

The only way to do it right is to do it yourself, is my motto.

You are free to do it yourself on your own car - although I don't
plan on being anywhere near you - but you should NOT be doing repairs
on other peoples vehicles - you are untrained, unauthorized, and
uninsured.

Anyone letting you work on their vehicles should be made aware of
that, and the dangers implied.

Ignorance is no excuse.

You can disagree (and you almost certainly will), but you can't disagree
that I'm trying to make an intelligent decision on which brake shoes to
buy, and that I probably know them as well as any mechanic who *thinks* he
knows them - but he doesn't - because he can't.


Well, you would be wrong.
Nobody can but the guy who submitted them for their Chase test.

Wrong again.

PLONK

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:31:56 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

a whole lot more!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm reading them as soon as I post this to let you know that...
Thanks for always posting on-topic technical value.

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:45:56 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality.

that's true now

Yup. Basic Economics 101. Price is only a function of demand.

Price is never directly related to quality.
Price is only a function of demand.

Demand is a function of lots of complex variables, which is why they
invented Marketing (to greatly influence the demand).

I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard,
which contains dead cars.

same here

I can't imagine buying used brake shoes or pads off a scrapped car.
I just can't.

Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads?

they're on cars, so used.'

Whoever proposes to buy brake pads and shoes off of junked cars is fine
with his logic, but he doesn't need to repeat it since it's not something
most of us would do.

I can see buying some parts at a scrap yard (e.g., a door or a fender), but
I just can't see buying a brake pad or shoe off a scrapped car.

How do you even do that? Do you walk around the junk yard to look for your
exact year, make and model and then pull the wheels and then pull the pads?

That's a lot of work, if you even find the right make and model, and then
if you can get to it (since they pile these things five cars high
sometimes) and if you can get the rusted lug bolts and brake drums off and
then you have to disassemble the brakes.

Seems like a *lot* of work for a brake shoe that will be "iffy" because you
have no way of knowing their condition ahead of time.

Or, maybe the junk yard does that for you, but then you are just staring at
a pile of brake shoes on the wall, which maybe, if you're lucky, have
accurate designations for the make and model of the vehicle they came off
of.

I guess if you bring your old shoes with you, you can match them, but that
means your car is on blocks the whole time you do this, so you have to have
a second vehicle to do it.

I just don't see *how* it's practicable.
Do you?

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:45:56 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality.

that's true now

Yup. Basic Economics 101. Price is only a function of demand.

Price is never directly related to quality.
Price is only a function of demand.

Demand is a function of lots of complex variables, which is why they
invented Marketing (to greatly influence the demand).

I'm not sure what you mean by "scrapyards". To me, that means a junk yard,
which contains dead cars.

same here

I can't imagine buying used brake shoes or pads off a scrapped car.
I just can't.

Are you talking about *used* brake pads or *new* brake pads?

they're on cars, so used.'

Whoever proposes to buy brake pads and shoes off of junked cars is fine
with his logic, but he doesn't need to repeat it since it's not something
most of us would do.

I can see buying some parts at a scrap yard (e.g., a door or a fender), but
I just can't see buying a brake pad or shoe off a scrapped car.

How do you even do that? Do you walk around the junk yard to look for your
exact year, make and model and then pull the wheels and then pull the pads?

That's a lot of work, if you even find the right make and model, and then
if you can get to it (since they pile these things five cars high
sometimes) and if you can get the rusted lug bolts and brake drums off and
then you have to disassemble the brakes.

Seems like a *lot* of work for a brake shoe that will be "iffy" because you
have no way of knowing their condition ahead of time.

Or, maybe the junk yard does that for you, but then you are just staring at
a pile of brake shoes on the wall, which maybe, if you're lucky, have
accurate designations for the make and model of the vehicle they came off
of.

I guess if you bring your old shoes with you, you can match them, but that
means your car is on blocks the whole time you do this, so you have to have
a second vehicle to do it.

I just don't see *how* it's practicable.
Do you?

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 12:25:43 PM UTC-5, Mad Roger wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:45:56 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality.

that's true now

Yup. Basic Economics 101. Price is only a function of demand.

Price is never directly related to quality.
Price is only a function of demand.


You;ve misinterpreted basic economics. There is a demand curve
where demand is a function of price. But that's a single curve for
a certain product with it's defined specification. It does not
imply that there is no relationship between the price of various
different versions of that product that differ in specification
and price. For example, there is a demand curve for prime steak.
There is a demand curve for choice steak and a demand curve for
select steak. They are separate curves and the prime steak curve
is the higher price curve. Draw a chart and you'll have three
curves, the prime curve being the highest. What you're saying is
there is no correlation between higher price between select steak
and prime steak. It wold be rare to find the better prime steak
that sells at the price of a select steak, there is a direct
correlation.

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 08:52:07 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

not really. But cars generally seem to deal with it ok.
Ultimately it comes down to enough force to create enough
friction, and almost any friction material can do that.

I agree with your logical thought process in that the only scientific
summary that makes logical sense is that all pads work just fine in
passenger vehicles, with the main difference being the foot pounds of
torque applied to the brake pedal to obtain the desired deceleration rate.

Hence, any pad is fine, EE or FF or GG, for stopping the vehicle.

I certainly bought bad pads in about 2000.
I go though a set of front pads once every couple of years, never more than
two years on my own vehicle, but on this vehicle, it took 20 years to go
through one set of rear shoes.

The ones from the scrapyard OTOH I had no problem with.

The problem isn't the scrapyard per se.
The problem is getting the *right* pads at the scrapyard.
That can't be easy (see my other post on how that's done).

Those I got to see after they'd been used a bit, so I knew they
weren't disintegrating, let alone badly, or oily.

What does that even mean?

You criticised buying pads off scrap vehicles before, but truth
is every time you buy a used car you're getting used brake pads.
It's not a problem really.

I don't at all disagree with your apropos logic that every time you buy a
used car you get used pads, but, you can assume (logically) that the pads
fit.

I've been to junk yards where there literally are junked cars piled four
and five cars high outdoors, where you walk the yard looking for the fender
or mirror that you want.

To look for brake pads would be an order of magnitude harder because you
can't see the brake pad until you find a similar vehicle make model and
year, you climb up to the top car, you remove the wheels, you pull the
rusty drums or calipers off, and then, only then, do you get any chance to
see the condition of the brake pads and shoes.

Or, if the scrapyard does all that for you, and has placed a ton of brake
shoes on the shelves, you can pick among them for the right size and shape,
but that process comes with the problem that you have to have a comparison
pad and shoe in your hands, which means your car is up on blocks and you're
borrowing someone else's car.

If you can read the AMECA edge code, you have a chance at getting the right
shoe or pad, but it sure does seem like a lot of effort when an FF pad or
shoe is about $20 a set of four at Rock Auto.

Did I surmise the scrap yard process incorrectly?
If so, how would you correct that process of *selecting* the right pads?

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:43:16 -0800 (PST),
trader_4 wrote:

This whole thing seems a bit silly to me. It's a test for police
cars. I would expect that all cars can lock the wheels with a
power assisted force that's well within the range that a typical
driver can apply. That's one of the reasons we went to anti-lock
brakes, right? Because once it's locked, you need to release force
to keep it moving to keep control. So, why police would be so worried
about how much force it takes on the pedal, IDK. ARe they such wusses
that they can't apply reasonable force that would lock the wheels
in panic situations? Those force numbers required are all within what
any cop that's fit for duty can apply. So, what's the point?
I agree with Clare, there are plenty of other issues here that are
more important than the friction. IMO, unless it's some unusual
situation, this friction thing is mostly a red herring in selecting
brake pads.

I removed s.e.r so I didn't see this post until moving over to a.h.r, so I
apologize for not having prior responded.

I agree with you on pedal force, where we must note that the range was from
about 8 foot pounds to about 30 foot pounds, from a slow deceleration to a
panic stop, which I presume we're all able to supply.

I'm not defending the police report but they did mention that women are in
the force now, and they mentioned that they cruise all day, but still, I'm
with you on the pedal force.

To their credit, the pedal force *does* equate to stopping distance, where
only the 30 foot pound panic stop test actually stops in the *shortest*
distance possible.

Fundamentally, what they found was that the pedal force between any two
pads (all were either EE or FF) varied by about 10 foot pounds (give or
take) to keep to a given deceleration, which, I'm guessing, isn't all that
much of a difference that is meaningful to us.

Still ... it's the best test we could find, so if you can find a better
test, we'd be all ears.

As for your last comment that 'friction is a red herring', I can't
logically disagree (given the facts we've unearthed), but intuitively I
would have *assumed* that friction was of primary importance in brake
friction materials.

Given that intuition fails in this case, it's one reason why I say that
most people who *only* rely on intuition are more often wrong than right,
because in this situation, clearly, friction isn't of primary importance in
brake friction material performance.

Who knew.
Only Clare.
Certainly not I.

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:54:26 -0800 (PST),
trader_4 wrote:

Bingo. Cops are supposed to be reasonably physically fit. We went
to anti-lock brakes because the regular drivers were locking the breaks.

Somewhere I read that ABS doesn't stop you in the shortest distance - it
just stops you with the most control. Dunno if that's true as that's not
what I was aiming for here.

I've never had a car with any brake pads where I could not very easily
with limited force, lock the brakes. So, why the obsession with the
coefficient of friction?

It's not so much an obsession with any one spec but the desire to be able
to intelligently compare two brake shoes that are in one's hand or on the
web.

It should be clear by now that I don't trust salesmen or marketing, so I'm
pretty much stuck to trusting whatever specs we have.

And we *know* that the AMECA Edge Code is one spec that must, by law, be
printed on every shoe.

For the typical driver, how much brake dust
they put out is more of an issue.

I agree that there are other important criteria of a second-order nature
other than how well a shoe stops.

But just stating them doesn't help.

We have to be able to tell how much shoe A dusts compared to shoe B when we
go to the parts store or on the web to buy them.

How do YOU tell if shoe A dusts more or less than shoe B for example?

I can see the coefficient of friction
affecting how they feel, whether you need to put X force that;s within
your ability to lock them, or X plus some force that's still well within
your ability to lock them, but that's all.

It doesn't even seem to do that, since as Clare noted, EE and FF brakes had
pedal forces to maintain a given deceleration that were 100% different and
it didn't matter whether they were EE or FF. It was dependent on the pad.

So, we're really stuck with nothing.

As you noted, *lots* of things are important, but that's meaningless if we
can't tell, with the shoes in our hand or on the web, which ones are better
than the others.

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 09:54:16 -0800 (PST),
trader_4 wrote:

You;ve misinterpreted basic economics.

Naah. I took the class. I got an A. If it's "elastic", it follows the
supply and demand curve, where prices are set based purely on demand.

If it's not elastic, then all bets are off.

Marketing's job is to make things non elastic, and they do a great job of
that, given, for example, people seem to wait in long lines just to spend
twice as much on an iPhone as it's actually worth.

There is a demand curve
where demand is a function of price.

Assuming it's perfectly elastic.

But that's a single curve for
a certain product with it's defined specification. It does not
imply that there is no relationship between the price of various
different versions of that product that differ in specification
and price.

Nobody said otherwise.
If there's something "different" (even the color for example), then it's
different.

What you seem to be discussing is the difference between a commodity (where
even the color is unimportant), and the opposite of a commodity:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-opposite-of-the-word-commodity

The curves are completely different in their elasticity.
A brake shoe "should" be a commodity (but might not be).

For example, there is a demand curve for prime steak.
There is a demand curve for choice steak and a demand curve for
select steak.

Again, same concept as above.
Those are three different things because demand is different for them.
There could even be a curve for Australian versus British Prime Steak.

If it were a commodity, then the curve is more elastic than if it's not.

They are separate curves and the prime steak curve
is the higher price curve.

Nobody ever said the curves aren't different for different products.
They can even be different in different locales.
For example, whale steak may have a different curve in Japan than in India.

Draw a chart and you'll have three
curves, the prime curve being the highest.

Nobody ever said that each product has its own supply and demand curves.
If you consider a pink iPhone different than a black one, it can have a
different curve.

The Marketing people figure all this out for us and price accordingly to
get the best marginal utility out of us.

What you're saying is
there is no correlation between higher price between select steak
and prime steak.

You inferred that. Incorrectly. Nobody said it but you.

It wold be rare to find the better prime steak
that sells at the price of a select steak, there is a direct
correlation.

What we need to discuss is brake pads and shoes.

They would actually have different curves if they were different, or, more
to the point, if people *believed* they were different.

For example, if you thought an EE pad was **** (as I did), then it would be
worthless to you at any price, even at free. But if you thought an EE pad
could be as good as an FF pad at braking, then the curve is completely
different.

At the moment, the only logical conclusion anyone can scientifically make,
is that all pads we can buy the USA are 'about the same' (give or take)
because we have no way of telling them apart if we had both in our hands
(or on the web).

In the end, Clare did say pretty much to get any shoe that "says" it meets
OEM Quality - so that means all OEM Quality shoes should have the same
demand curve.

This is only enginering, logic, and economics.
No black art should be involved in buying brake pads and shoes.

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 4:16:13 PM UTC-5, Mad Roger wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 09:54:16 -0800 (PST),
trader_4 wrote:

You;ve misinterpreted basic economics.

Naah. I took the class. I got an A. If it's "elastic", it follows the
supply and demand curve, where prices are set based purely on demand.

If it's not elastic, then all bets are off.

Marketing's job is to make things non elastic, and they do a great job of
that, given, for example, people seem to wait in long lines just to spend
twice as much on an iPhone as it's actually worth.

There is a demand curve
where demand is a function of price.

Assuming it's perfectly elastic.

But that's a single curve for
a certain product with it's defined specification. It does not
imply that there is no relationship between the price of various
different versions of that product that differ in specification
and price.

Nobody said otherwise.

You did when you said:


"I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."

Do you really think that a prime steak has the same price as a choice
steak, or a select grade steak? That a top quality 10" chef's knife
from Henckel, Wusthoff, Misono doesn't reflect that quality and require
a much higher price than the $5 10" chef knife at the discount store?
The prices are correlated to the quality of the product. The same applies
to brake pads, certainly to some extent.




that's true now

Yup. Basic Economics 101. Price is only a function of demand.

Price is never directly related to quality.
Price is only a function of demand.





If there's something "different" (even the color for example), then it's
different.

Well duh! And there is a difference in brake pads!






What you seem to be discussing is the difference between a commodity (where
even the color is unimportant), and the opposite of a commodity:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-opposite-of-the-word-commodity

The curves are completely different in their elasticity.
A brake shoe "should" be a commodity (but might not be).

It's no different than steaks or chef knives. There is a curve for
a prime steak, there is a curve for a select steak. There is a curve
for an entry level brake pad that wears fast, doesn't last very long,
doesn't have the best fade performance, creates a lot of duct, etc.
There is a curve for pads that have better performance in one or more
of those area and they cost more.




For example, there is a demand curve for prime steak.
There is a demand curve for choice steak and a demand curve for
select steak.

Again, same concept as above.
Those are three different things because demand is different for them.

Just like the demand is different for a brake pad that doesn't create
dust, one that lasts longer, etc.




There could even be a curve for Australian versus British Prime Steak.

If it were a commodity, then the curve is more elastic than if it's not.

They are separate curves and the prime steak curve
is the higher price curve.

Nobody ever said the curves aren't different for different products.

You did:

"Price is never directly related to quality.
Price is only a function of demand. "

Price is only a function of demand within the demand curve for a
specific brake pad. Once you change the brake pad, say to one
that doesn't create dust, it's an entirely different demand curve
and it will typically be priced at a premium. And that statement
you made is still wrong, price is not only a function of demand,
it's a function of supply too.





They can even be different in different locales.
For example, whale steak may have a different curve in Japan than in India.

Draw a chart and you'll have three
curves, the prime curve being the highest.

Nobody ever said that each product has its own supply and demand curves.
If you consider a pink iPhone different than a black one, it can have a
different curve.

And so can freaking brake pads, for the same reason.




The Marketing people figure all this out for us and price accordingly to
get the best marginal utility out of us.

What you're saying is
there is no correlation between higher price between select steak
and prime steak.

You inferred that. Incorrectly. Nobody said it but you.

You said it, exactly as cited.

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:41:54 -0800 (PST),
trader_4 wrote:

You did when you said:


"I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."

Do you really think that a prime steak has the same price as a choice
steak, or a select grade steak? That a top quality 10" chef's knife
from Henckel, Wusthoff, Misono doesn't reflect that quality and require
a much higher price than the $5 10" chef knife at the discount store?
The prices are correlated to the quality of the product. The same applies
to brake pads, certainly to some extent.

You didn't understand a single word I said.
Either that, or you just want to argue.

We agree on the curves being *different* for things that are perceived to
be different.

If a tire to a billion people is NOT a commodity (there doesn't seem to be
a word for the opposite of a commodity), then each one has a certain demand
curve.

If those same tires *are* considered a commodity to another billion people,
then those tires, to those people, have a *different* (lumped together as
one) commodity-based demand curve.

Either you understand that, or you just want to argue for argument's sake.
I am done with arguing what is in *every* Economics textbook on the planet.

I can't teach you an entire course in Economics 101 in just a Usenet
thread. You either understand the basics, or you don't.

It's marketing's job to increase *perception* of value.

If you like beef and don't like pork, then the curves are different.
If you don't care, and if it's all just "meat" to you, then they're not.

This is extremely basic stuff covered in the first weeks of class.

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 6:20:04 PM UTC-5, Mad Roger wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:41:54 -0800 (PST),
trader_4 wrote:

You did when you said:


"I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."

Do you really think that a prime steak has the same price as a choice
steak, or a select grade steak? That a top quality 10" chef's knife
from Henckel, Wusthoff, Misono doesn't reflect that quality and require
a much higher price than the $5 10" chef knife at the discount store?
The prices are correlated to the quality of the product. The same applies
to brake pads, certainly to some extent.

You didn't understand a single word I said.
Either that, or you just want to argue.

Funny remark coming from the guy where Clare and others here have told
you that you're the one who just wants to argue and can't be educated,
even after they've made 20 posts trying.




We agree on the curves being *different* for things that are perceived to
be different.

Not just "perceived", for things that ARE different. A better performing
brake pad is typically more expensive to produce, which makes the supply curve
different. It has a different demand curve from customers and the balance
point where supply and demand meet reflects that in a HIGHER market price
for the pads with the better performance.



If a tire to a billion people is NOT a commodity (there doesn't seem to be
a word for the opposite of a commodity), then each one has a certain demand
curve.

And why then would this not be true of brake pads too? Tires are optimized
for various performance characteristics and there are tires that cost more
that perform better than cheap tires. Same thing with brake pads. But
according to you, performance and price are never correlated.




If those same tires *are* considered a commodity to another billion people,
then those tires, to those people, have a *different* (lumped together as
one) commodity-based demand curve.

Either you understand that, or you just want to argue for argument's sake.
I am done with arguing what is in *every* Economics textbook on the planet.

I can't teach you an entire course in Economics 101 in just a Usenet
thread. You either understand the basics, or you don't.

I understand economics perfectly. And I understand brake pads enough
to know that THEY AREN'T ALL THE SAME COMMODITY ITEM.

Then why did you say this:


"I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."

Do you think you can manufacture the best performing brake pads for
the same price as the most basic ones? That consumers value the two
the same? Good grief.



It's just like
the steak and chef knife examples I gave you. Good grief, Clare has
explained over and over to you that there are substantial and important
differences in brake pad choices. You came in here with the angle that
it's all about the coefficient of friction. It's been pointed out
to you that there are many other characteristics that differentiate
pads, yet now you want to segue into economics and claim that they
are all the same, so price and those characteristics have no relationship.
It's just that you want to make
them all the same to justify your foolish remark:


"I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."

Quality isn't even the right term here, because strictly speaking
from a manufacturing perspective, quality is delivering a product
that meets the specification, on time. You could have a product spec
that has a tolerance of +/- 10 thousandths of an inch in a dimension and one
that has a tolerance of +/- 1 thousandth. If all the product coming
out of those two different lines meets the production spec, then it's
all quality product, good product, as far as quality measurement goes.

What makes one pad cost more is differences in the composition and
manufacturing which results in different
performance parameters, which to you and customers could be loosely
called "quality", in layman's terms.




It's marketing's job to increase *perception* of value.

If you like beef and don't like pork, then the curves are different.

The curves would always be separate demand curves, they are two different products.



If you don't care, and if it's all just "meat" to you, then they're not.

Only if it's sold as mystery meat that can be either beef or pork.




This is extremely basic stuff covered in the first weeks of class.

And sadly you didn't learn economics any better than the technical
details of brake pads.

On 17/01/2018 7:59 AM, Mad Roger wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:54:26 -0800 (PST),
trader_4 wrote:

Bingo. Cops are supposed to be reasonably physically fit. We went
to anti-lock brakes because the regular drivers were locking the breaks.

Somewhere I read that ABS doesn't stop you in the shortest distance - it
just stops you with the most control. Dunno if that's true as that's not
what I was aiming for here.

You read somewhere? If you understand how ABS systems operate you would
*inherently know* the answer, not just from *reading it somewhere*.

The fact that you *don't know if the answer you read was true* proves
that you are starting from a very low knowledge base and should stay
away from brakes, steering, suspension, even cars in general, until you
rectify this *knowledge deficit*.


--

Xeno

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:34:08 +1100, Xeno
wrote:

On 17/01/2018 7:59 AM, Mad Roger wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:54:26 -0800 (PST),
trader_4 wrote:

Bingo. Cops are supposed to be reasonably physically fit. We went
to anti-lock brakes because the regular drivers were locking the breaks.

Somewhere I read that ABS doesn't stop you in the shortest distance - it
just stops you with the most control. Dunno if that's true as that's not
what I was aiming for here.

You read somewhere? If you understand how ABS systems operate you would
*inherently know* the answer, not just from *reading it somewhere*.

The fact that you *don't know if the answer you read was true* proves
that you are starting from a very low knowledge base and should stay
away from brakes, steering, suspension, even cars in general, until you
rectify this *knowledge deficit*.



"antilock brakes just guarantee you will hit whatever you hit SQUARE
ON!!!"

On 17/01/2018 4:07 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:34:08 +1100, Xeno
wrote:

On 17/01/2018 7:59 AM, Mad Roger wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 09:54:26 -0800 (PST),
trader_4 wrote:

Bingo. Cops are supposed to be reasonably physically fit. We went
to anti-lock brakes because the regular drivers were locking the breaks.

Somewhere I read that ABS doesn't stop you in the shortest distance - it
just stops you with the most control. Dunno if that's true as that's not
what I was aiming for here.

You read somewhere? If you understand how ABS systems operate you would
*inherently know* the answer, not just from *reading it somewhere*.

The fact that you *don't know if the answer you read was true* proves
that you are starting from a very low knowledge base and should stay
away from brakes, steering, suspension, even cars in general, until you
rectify this *knowledge deficit*.



"antilock brakes just guarantee you will hit whatever you hit SQUARE
ON!!!"

LOL, they will indeed!

--

Xeno

On 1/16/2018 5:20 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:41:54 -0800 (PST),
trader_4 wrote:

You did when you said:


"I think price is not an indication of anything other than what the
marketing can make people pay. It's certainly not an indication of quality."

Do you really think that a prime steak has the same price as a choice
steak, or a select grade steak? That a top quality 10" chef's knife
from Henckel, Wusthoff, Misono doesn't reflect that quality and require
a much higher price than the $5 10" chef knife at the discount store?
The prices are correlated to the quality of the product. The same applies
to brake pads, certainly to some extent.

You didn't understand a single word I said.
Either that, or you just want to argue.

We agree on the curves being *different* for things that are perceived to
be different.

If a tire to a billion people is NOT a commodity (there doesn't seem to be
a word for the opposite of a commodity), then each one has a certain demand
curve.

If those same tires *are* considered a commodity to another billion people,
then those tires, to those people, have a *different* (lumped together as
one) commodity-based demand curve.

Either you understand that, or you just want to argue for argument's sake.
I am done with arguing what is in *every* Economics textbook on the planet.

I can't teach you an entire course in Economics 101 in just a Usenet
thread. You either understand the basics, or you don't.

It's marketing's job to increase *perception* of value.

If you like beef and don't like pork, then the curves are different.
If you don't care, and if it's all just "meat" to you, then they're not.

This is extremely basic stuff covered in the first weeks of class.


The exam question you missed was Veblen.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 08:54:51 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:

The exam question you missed was Veblen.

I never heard of Veblen ... here's some information I just read about him.
In a word, unconventional.

Thorstein Veblen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorstein_Veblen

The Social Economics of Thorstein Veblen
http://michael-hudson.com/2012/10/th...rstein-veblen/

Thorstein Veblen | Economics | 1857-1929
https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/project...acch09_01.html

On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 02:47:38 -0000 (UTC),
Mad Roger wrote:
The scientific question is how do we correctly interpret why EE pads seem
to outperform FF pads in this police cruiser study done in 2000?
https://www.justnet.org/pdf/EvaluationBrakePads2000.pdf

I called Centric at 626-961-5775 where I'm told the Centric parts for this
vehicle a
* Rear shoes: 11105890 ceramic
* Front pads: 10504360 ceramic

I spoke to Centric tech support multiple times today, who knew all about
the Michigan police cruiser studies, SAE J866 Chase Test, and SAE J2784
compliance, and the AMECA Edge Codes (aka DOT Edge Codes).

They gave me the DOT Edge Codes after calling the warehouse:
* CENTRIC 11105890 shoes = 111AA9101FF30N17 which is CEN 111AA9101 FF
* CENTRIC 10504360 pads = 15AA2256FE48A17 which his CEN 15AA2256 FE

The rear shoes have a registered material of #161379 which matches:
* CEN 111AA9101 FF
* CEN 112AA9101 FF

There is a large discrepancy in the front shoes since they match to #161583
* CEN 15AA2256 GF (this is not EF which is what is printed on the pad)
* CEN 15AA8241 GF

After multiple calls to Ameca and to Centric (I've left out the engineer's
names from this and all my reports on purpose), there must be a mistake
which they'll iron out between themselves.

I asked CENTRIC what "OEM Quality" means, and the engineer told me "mostly
marketing". I asked if there was a spec of clay in the pad if they could
call it ceramic, and he agreed.

He told me a lot of other stuff also, such as the fact they don't sell to
Rock Auto nor to Amazon, so if you get Centric parts there, it's through a
reseller of some sort.

The technical engineer did tell me that Centric puts all brake shoes on a
dyno and tests them thoroughly to assure they meet OEM Quality, but it's
not like a manufacturer gives them a spec. They just know how brake shoes
and pads should work.

If you do not believe any of this, I don't blame you because it goes
against all your intuition but intuition is almost always wrong on highly
marketed items because it's not intuition that drives the thought process
anymore - it's marketing.

But all you have to do to confirm is make the same phone calls I did.
Just ask for tech support when the operator answers the phone.

AMECA +1-202-898-0145
CENTRIC +1-626-961-5775

Mad Roger posted for all of us...


I have been trained to drive an ambulance.
Know what they taught me?

a. Defensive driving
b. Noise pollution is bad
c. Laws (nobody is allowed to break the law in that state, not even
ambulances)


Then you have been poorly trained. Our company had mandatory EVOC (Emergency
Vehicle Operations Course) training by a certified instructor &
recertification. PA is a "due regard" state. Look it up. You can't help if
the vehicle is crashed. You are responsible for the crew and victims.

--
Tekkie

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



"antilock brakes just guarantee you will hit whatever you hit SQUARE
ON!!!"



Exactly! When the slickback chevys first came out with ABS the cops were
burning up pads and crashing early and often. They had to be *retrained* to
keep the binders on and steer out of trouble.

--
Tekkie

On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 15:45:10 -0500, Tekkie®
wrote:

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



"antilock brakes just guarantee you will hit whatever you hit SQUARE
ON!!!"



Exactly! When the slickback chevys first came out with ABS the cops were
burning up pads and crashing early and often. They had to be *retrained* to
keep the binders on and steer out of trouble.


And that doesn't even work when you get into sloppy wet slush - The
brakes basically shut off, and if you could steer around the trouble
you wouldn't need to even try the brakes.

When driving in those conditions you drive as if you have no brakes -
because when it comes right down to it, you will be right.

On 20/01/2018 9:05 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 15:45:10 -0500, Tekkie®
wrote:

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



"antilock brakes just guarantee you will hit whatever you hit SQUARE
ON!!!"



Exactly! When the slickback chevys first came out with ABS the cops were
burning up pads and crashing early and often. They had to be *retrained* to
keep the binders on and steer out of trouble.


And that doesn't even work when you get into sloppy wet slush - The
brakes basically shut off, and if you could steer around the trouble
you wouldn't need to even try the brakes.

When driving in those conditions you drive as if you have no brakes -
because when it comes right down to it, you will be right.

Otherwise known as defensive driving!

I like your thinking! ;-)

--

Xeno

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



On Fri, 19 Jan 2018 15:45:10 -0500, Tekkie®
wrote:

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



"antilock brakes just guarantee you will hit whatever you hit SQUARE
ON!!!"



Exactly! When the slickback chevys first came out with ABS the cops were
burning up pads and crashing early and often. They had to be *retrained* to
keep the binders on and steer out of trouble.


And that doesn't even work when you get into sloppy wet slush - The
brakes basically shut off, and if you could steer around the trouble
you wouldn't need to even try the brakes.

When driving in those conditions you drive as if you have no brakes -
because when it comes right down to it, you will be right.

+1 Training to steer out of trouble is hard. One has to focus their eyes on
where they want to go rather than latching onto the collision site.

--
Tekkie