I haven't done drum brakes ever but I'm faced with these drum brakes where
I'd just like to ask a couple of questions from those of you who have done
drum brakes before.

1. I released the parking brake from the cabin and screwed these 2-inch
long metric 8mm x 1.25mm threads bolts to pull the drum off the shoes.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5687240drum_brakes_0.jpg

2. After blowing the dust out (and not breathing it in), I could see that
the front shoe was worn down to about a millimeter or less (after 175K
miles), so I'm going to have to buy new shoes and replace them.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3478506drum_brakes_1.jpg

3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg

4. Where the maximum diameter of 297mm was stamped on the drum itself:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9428041drum_brakes_3.jpg

5. It was hard to get the drum back on even with the parking brake released
from the cabin, so I had to use a mallet to bang it back on:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2434045drum_brakes_4.jpg

The main question is whether I'm supposed to *disconnect* the cable for the
parking brake when working on the drums, and particularly when I put the
new shoes on after I buy them.

Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).

But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
Can you advise?

On 1/8/2018 2:02 AM, Mad Roger wrote:
I haven't done drum brakes ever but I'm faced with these drum brakes where
I'd just like to ask a couple of questions from those of you who have done
drum brakes before.

1. I released the parking brake from the cabin and screwed these 2-inch
long metric 8mm x 1.25mm threads bolts to pull the drum off the shoes.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5687240drum_brakes_0.jpg

2. After blowing the dust out (and not breathing it in), I could see that
the front shoe was worn down to about a millimeter or less (after 175K
miles), so I'm going to have to buy new shoes and replace them.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3478506drum_brakes_1.jpg

It appears the one shoe is unevenly worn. Could be a bad cylinder or
another stuck part such as the adjuster. Check them and replace/repair
if needed.

3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg

Maximum diameter of what? Are you aware of the adjusters? Each side has
one and it sits under the cylinder behind the hub. You can see it in
this diagram
http://repairguide.autozone.com/znet...5280089c12.gif

It's job is to keep the shoes against the drum and is automatically
adjusted when the parking brake is used. Often, this is the reason why
drums are difficult to remove. They are adjusted from the other side
through an opening using an adjustment tool and often need to be
loosened in order to remove the drum. They also need to be tightened
after you replaced the shoes and re-install the drum. Retract them and
your diameter will be less than the drum.

4. Where the maximum diameter of 297mm was stamped on the drum itself:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9428041drum_brakes_3.jpg

5. It was hard to get the drum back on even with the parking brake released
from the cabin, so I had to use a mallet to bang it back on:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2434045drum_brakes_4.jpg

Back to the adjuster.

The main question is whether I'm supposed to *disconnect* the cable for the
parking brake when working on the drums, and particularly when I put the
new shoes on after I buy them.

The parking brake cable doesn't need to be removed, assuming it's
functioning properly. Just ensure the parking brake is not engage when
replacing shoes. The parking brake assembly will be removed when the
shoes are replaced.

Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).

Much depends on the vehicle. Many shoes are identical and it doesn't
matter if they are placed in front or rear. Others are specific and
require proper position and seating. In your case, the shoes appear to
be the same but that wear is something I wouldn't simply "rotate" with
the other side. One side wearing more than the other is not normal and
should be checked, repaired/replaced then install new shoes with the
proper even thickness.

But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
Can you advise?

But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
Can you advise?


The parking brake is adjustable. This was usually done with a threaded
sleeve over a threaded stud mounted between the two shoes at either
the top or bottom. On the threaded sleeve is a toothed "wheel" which
is used to turn the sleeve from the inside of the brake mount plate
when the brake drum is on. There is a special tool for this, which
resembles a small pry bar. You can probably find or make something to
use.

Before putting the drum on, turn the sleeve in to shorten the link
between the two brake shoes. The brake drum should then slide right
on. Put on the tire and tighten the lugs to hold the drum properly in
position. From under the car access the slot behind the toothed wheel,
and using the adjustment tool turn it to lengthen the adjuster until
the tire can no longer be rotated by hand. Then back the adjuster off
until the tire can just be rotated easily.

BTW, make sure that the longer of the new brake shoes is on the BACK
for each wheel.

-dan z-



__
Someone who thinks logically provides
a nice contrast to the real world.
(Anonymous)

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:03:33 -0500,
Meanie wrote:

It appears the one shoe is unevenly worn.

Thanks for your help as this is my first set of drum brakes ever.

This is a side view closeup of the front unevenly worn shoe:
https://s13.postimg.org/mezt8lvs7/brakes_drum_4.jpg

I had been, for years, looking through the peep hole, but that showed a lot
of meat on the shoes. You really have to remove the drum to see the actual
shoe, so, after 175K miles on the same shoes, I finally removed the drum
and noticed that the front show lower end, is worn tapering to the middle,
while the rest of the shoes are just fine.

Could be a bad cylinder or
another stuck part such as the adjuster. Check them and replace/repair
if needed.

Thanks for that advice.

The cylinder seems to not be leaking but that's all I can tell.
There have been no unusual braking events so I'm not debugging anything.

I googled a bit, and it seems "normal" for Toyota 4Runner rear brake shoes
to wear most in the front show on the bottom half. Something to do with the
geometry. I can't complain, as the shoes definitely are original so 20
years is a long time for a brake shoe to finally wear out.

3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg

Maximum diameter of what?

The drum:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=942...m_brakes_3.jpg

In that photo you can see that the inside of the drum has a molded in
maximum diameter of 297mm. I assume that means the maximum diameter.

My calipers are in US measurements where 11.615 inches converts to about
295mm.

So I assume the drum is good by 2mm in thickness.

Are you aware of the adjusters? Each side has
one and it sits under the cylinder behind the hub.

Yes. This vehicle adjusts automatically when you brake in reverse, so I've
never dealt with them - but I am going to have to back them out for sure
when I put the new brake shoes on.

You can see the adjuster he
https://s13.postimg.org/senkcelrb/brakes_drum_1.jpg

I'm just not sure what we're supposed to do about the parking brake cable
linkages. I don't know yet if they have to be disconnected when putting in
new brake shoes.

You can see the parking brake cable he
https://s13.postimg.org/5egwznnt3/brakes_drum_2.jpg

It's job is to keep the shoes against the drum and is automatically
adjusted when the parking brake is used. Often, this is the reason why
drums are difficult to remove. They are adjusted from the other side
through an opening using an adjustment tool and often need to be
loosened in order to remove the drum. They also need to be tightened
after you replaced the shoes and re-install the drum. Retract them and
your diameter will be less than the drum.

I understand what you're saying, which is that the brake shoes may be
"wedged" against the drum, but I had the vehicle in the air and the parking
brake off, so, any wedging shouldn't be too strong.

This is a closeup of the parking brake cable connection to the shoes:
https://s13.postimg.org/b2n7qr2hz/brakes_drum_3.jpg

As it was, putting the two 2-inch long 8mmx1.25 bolts in the two holes for
the purpose pushed the drum off easily. I had to squish the shoes a bit to
get the drum back on - and if necessary - I would have twisted the adjuster
- but I didn't need to.

The parking brake cable doesn't need to be removed, assuming it's
functioning properly. Just ensure the parking brake is not engage when
replacing shoes. The parking brake assembly will be removed when the
shoes are replaced.

Oh. OK. The parking brake seems to be a thick black cable that comes in at
the bottom of these shoes.

Much depends on the vehicle. Many shoes are identical and it doesn't
matter if they are placed in front or rear. Others are specific and
require proper position and seating. In your case, the shoes appear to
be the same but that wear is something I wouldn't simply "rotate" with
the other side. One side wearing more than the other is not normal and
should be checked, repaired/replaced then install new shoes with the
proper even thickness.

I think I'll replace the shoes, but since they lasted 20 years, I was just
wondering if "rotating" them every two or three or five years would have
extended the life of them.

It's a late 90's 4Runner.

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:02:22 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

I haven't done drum brakes ever but I'm faced with these drum brakes where
I'd just like to ask a couple of questions from those of you who have done
drum brakes before.

1. I released the parking brake from the cabin and screwed these 2-inch
long metric 8mm x 1.25mm threads bolts to pull the drum off the shoes.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5687240drum_brakes_0.jpg

2. After blowing the dust out (and not breathing it in), I could see that
the front shoe was worn down to about a millimeter or less (after 175K
miles), so I'm going to have to buy new shoes and replace them.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3478506drum_brakes_1.jpg

3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg

4. Where the maximum diameter of 297mm was stamped on the drum itself:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9428041drum_brakes_3.jpg

5. It was hard to get the drum back on even with the parking brake released
from the cabin, so I had to use a mallet to bang it back on:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2434045drum_brakes_4.jpg

The main question is whether I'm supposed to *disconnect* the cable for the
parking brake when working on the drums, and particularly when I put the
new shoes on after I buy them.

Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).

But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
Can you advise?
Take the vehicle to a mechanic and have the brakes professionally
repaired. You are not mentally equipped to do the job (not saying you
are stupid, but you don't understand the implications well enough to
do the job adequately. You LIKELY need new cabvles, and ot cyls, and
or adjusters along with the shoes - which you MOST CERTAINLY can NOT
just swithch positions. The adjusters should have been backed off to
replace the drums.

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 09:16:15 -0500,
slate_leeper wrote:

The parking brake is adjustable. This was usually done with a threaded
sleeve over a threaded stud mounted between the two shoes at either
the top or bottom.

Is this the mechanism you're talking about?
https://s13.postimg.org/senkcelrb/brakes_drum_1.jpg

Here's the bottom, where the parking brake cable connects:
https://s13.postimg.org/5egwznnt3/brakes_drum_2.jpg

On the threaded sleeve is a toothed "wheel" which
is used to turn the sleeve from the inside of the brake mount plate
when the brake drum is on. There is a special tool for this, which
resembles a small pry bar. You can probably find or make something to
use.

I picked up at Harbor Freight a bunch of brake tools, one an all purpose
foot-long pliers, the others the special-purpose spring tool so I should be
ok on tools unless there is a Toyota-specific tool required (which I don't
think there is).

Before putting the drum on, turn the sleeve in to shorten the link
between the two brake shoes. The brake drum should then slide right
on.

That makes a lot of sense, so I will do that when I put the new shoes back
on. I probably should have turned the toothed wheel a few clicks even when
I inspected it and put it back on, as it was a bit tight getting the drum
back on. I had to use a mallet.

Put on the tire and tighten the lugs to hold the drum properly in
position. From under the car access the slot behind the toothed wheel,
and using the adjustment tool turn it to lengthen the adjuster until
the tire can no longer be rotated by hand. Then back the adjuster off
until the tire can just be rotated easily.

This makes a lot of sense!

It would adjust the brakes to the minimum, where the automatic backing up
in reverse will fine tune it, I guess.

BTW, make sure that the longer of the new brake shoes is on the BACK
for each wheel.

Ah. That means that the two shoes are NOT identical!

That negates the idea of "rotating" them every few years like we do tires
every five thousand miles to get more even wear out of them over time.

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:03:33 -0500, Meanie wrote:


Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).

Much depends on the vehicle. Many shoes are identical and it doesn't
matter if they are placed in front or rear.
Define "many"

Only vehicles with "twin leading shoe" brakes use the same shoe front
and back - and I'm not aware of ANY vehicle built with twin leading
shoe brakes since the early seventies - and then only British
vehicles. The leading and trailing shoe are generally of different
lengths as well as often different friction materials.

Others are specific and
require proper position and seating. In your case, the shoes appear to
be the same but that wear is something I wouldn't simply "rotate" with
the other side. One side wearing more than the other is not normal and
should be checked, repaired/replaced then install new shoes with the
proper even thickness.

Actually it IS common - and considered normal, for the "leading shoe"
to wear differently than the "trailing shoe" on a servo type (self
energizing) brake system - which virtually all recent (modern) drum
brake systems are. the leading shoe contacts the drum, and the drag
(friction) on that shoe rotates the shoe through the linkage between
shoes, forcing the trailing shoe more firmly in contact with the drum.
This enhances the brake action beyond what would be possible strictly
by the hydraulic force from the wheel cyls.

But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
Can you advise?

It generally unhooks from the activbation lever connected to the
brake shoes. On soime cars the lever unhooks easily from the shoe and
does not NEED to be disconnected from the cable

Again - I would ADVISE you (the OP) to have a mechanic properly
repair the brakes.

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 09:16:15 -0500, slate_leeper
wrote:


But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
Can you advise?


The parking brake is adjustable. This was usually done with a threaded
sleeve over a threaded stud mounted between the two shoes at either
the top or bottom. On the threaded sleeve is a toothed "wheel" which
is used to turn the sleeve from the inside of the brake mount plate
when the brake drum is on. There is a special tool for this, which
resembles a small pry bar. You can probably find or make something to
use.

That is the SERVICE BRAKE adjustment - the parking brake adjustment
is separate - on the cable - and on the VAST majority of vehicles on
the road today the parking brake is totally self adjusting, as is the
service brake. Different schemes are used on different vehicles and
understanding how it is supposed to work is CRUCIAL to doing a safe
and effective repair.

Before putting the drum on, turn the sleeve in to shorten the link
between the two brake shoes. The brake drum should then slide right
on. Put on the tire and tighten the lugs to hold the drum properly in
position. From under the car access the slot behind the toothed wheel,
and using the adjustment tool turn it to lengthen the adjuster until
the tire can no longer be rotated by hand. Then back the adjuster off
until the tire can just be rotated easily.

BTW, make sure that the longer of the new brake shoes is on the BACK
for each wheel.

-dan z-



__
Someone who thinks logically provides
a nice contrast to the real world.
(Anonymous)

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:36:04 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Take the vehicle to a mechanic and have the brakes professionally
repaired. You are not mentally equipped to do the job (not saying you
are stupid, but you don't understand the implications well enough to
do the job adequately.

That may be true, but I think I should be mentally equipped for something
as simple as a brake job (for example, I've done disc brakes for decades).
I've just never touched a drum brake before so everything is new.

That's why I'm doing my homework before tackling the job, which is why I
ask you for advice.

My main question was the PROCEDURE, which seems to not need me to
disconnect the parking brake cable anywhere other than actually inside the
drum assembly. That was the main question.

The secondary questions will abound, based on what people ask me, such as
someone asked why I considered 295 mm to be 2mm on the safe side over the
297 mm drum diameter.

Also the implication that "something is wrong" is perfectly natural since
the front bottom half is worn more than the rest after 175K miles, but it
seems from Googling that this is normal on Toyota rear drum brakes.

There's something in the math as shown here - but it's too triggy for me.
https://s13.postimg.org/4g0jxrng7/diagram_0.jpg

This is what someone wrote about why the Toyota wears in the front bottom
https://s13.postimg.org/l3s1zwn93/diagram_1.jpg

You LIKELY need new cabvles, and ot cyls, and
or adjusters along with the shoes

I would be happy to replace anything that seems bad, but nothing seems bad
at this point other than the shoes are worn. Other than leaks (which I
don't see, nor is there any indication of loss of brake fluid), what's the
test for new cables, and cylinders and adusters?

Here's a closeup of the adjuster:
https://s13.postimg.org/senkcelrb/brakes_drum_1.jpg

Here's a picture of the parking brake setup:
https://s13.postimg.org/5egwznnt3/brakes_drum_2.jpg

And a closeup of the parking brake cable:
https://s13.postimg.org/b2n7qr2hz/brakes_drum_3.jpg

What is the test for worn condition?

which you MOST CERTAINLY can NOT
just swithch positions.

This is an important question, which you've now answered (as did someone
else who said the larger shoe is the rear shoe). This means "rotation"
every few years isn't possible.

The adjusters should have been backed off to
replace the drums.

I see that now, as the drum required a good few mallet hits to get it back
on. Not too many. But a few. Next time I'll turn the star adjuster before
putting the drum back on.

Thanks for the advice!

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:45:36 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

It generally unhooks from the activbation lever connected to the
brake shoes. On soime cars the lever unhooks easily from the shoe and
does not NEED to be disconnected from the cable

Again - I would ADVISE you (the OP) to have a mechanic properly
repair the brakes.

This net picture seems to show the rear drum brake setup reasonably well.
https://s13.postimg.org/hy7ga57c7/Rear_Brakes_1.jpg

I wonder why they put drum brakes in this vehicle when most are disc?

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:48:33 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

That is the SERVICE BRAKE adjustment - the parking brake adjustment
is separate - on the cable - and on the VAST majority of vehicles on
the road today the parking brake is totally self adjusting, as is the
service brake. Different schemes are used on different vehicles and
understanding how it is supposed to work is CRUCIAL to doing a safe
and effective repair.

I see your distinction between the service brake and parking brakes!

This picture from the net seems to show them both:
https://s13.postimg.org/6n4sla81j/Rear_Brakes_2.jpg

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:03:33 -0500, Meanie wrote:


Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).

Much depends on the vehicle. Many shoes are identical and it doesn't
matter if they are placed in front or rear.
Define "many"

Only vehicles with "twin leading shoe" brakes use the same shoe front
and back - and I'm not aware of ANY vehicle built with twin leading
shoe brakes since the early seventies - and then only British
vehicles. The leading and trailing shoe are generally of different
lengths as well as often different friction materials.

Others are specific and
require proper position and seating. In your case, the shoes appear to
be the same but that wear is something I wouldn't simply "rotate" with
the other side. One side wearing more than the other is not normal and
should be checked, repaired/replaced then install new shoes with the
proper even thickness.

Actually it IS common - and considered normal, for the "leading shoe"
to wear differently than the "trailing shoe" on a servo type (self
energizing) brake system - which virtually all recent (modern) drum
brake systems are. the leading shoe contacts the drum, and the drag
(friction) on that shoe rotates the shoe through the linkage between
shoes, forcing the trailing shoe more firmly in contact with the drum.
This enhances the brake action beyond what would be possible strictly
by the hydraulic force from the wheel cyls.

But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
Can you advise?

It generally unhooks from the activbation lever connected to the
brake shoes. On soime cars the lever unhooks easily from the shoe and
does not NEED to be disconnected from the cable

Again - I would ADVISE you (the OP) to have a mechanic properly
repair the brakes.

Clare, prepare for the onslaught...

--
Tekkie

Mad Roger posted for all of us...



On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:45:36 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

It generally unhooks from the activbation lever connected to the
brake shoes. On soime cars the lever unhooks easily from the shoe and
does not NEED to be disconnected from the cable

Again - I would ADVISE you (the OP) to have a mechanic properly
repair the brakes.

This net picture seems to show the rear drum brake setup reasonably well.
https://s13.postimg.org/hy7ga57c7/Rear_Brakes_1.jpg

I wonder why they put drum brakes in this vehicle when most are disc?

Money, probably existing design...

--
Tekkie

Mad Roger posted for all of us...



That's why I'm doing my homework before tackling the job, which is why I
ask you for advice.


No mad man you have not researched anything, you ask everybody and argue and
then criticize. If you HAD researched you would know all about the cables,
shoes and adjusters. You are too busy taking pix and asking questions. 1)
Take pix of brake assy after pulling drum. Go to NAPA and ask for a brake
kit and linings and cylinders because yours will leak after you push the
seals back or rebuild the cylinders. Measure the drums as they may be shot
after this debacle.

--
Tekkie

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 19:10:52 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:45:36 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

It generally unhooks from the activbation lever connected to the
brake shoes. On soime cars the lever unhooks easily from the shoe and
does not NEED to be disconnected from the cable

Again - I would ADVISE you (the OP) to have a mechanic properly
repair the brakes.

This net picture seems to show the rear drum brake setup reasonably well.
https://s13.postimg.org/hy7ga57c7/Rear_Brakes_1.jpg

I wonder why they put drum brakes in this vehicle when most are disc?
Because drum brakes are standard equipment on all but the high trim
models

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 16:19:51 -0500, Tekkie® wrote:

Clare Snyder posted for all of us...



On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:03:33 -0500, Meanie wrote:


Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).

Much depends on the vehicle. Many shoes are identical and it doesn't
matter if they are placed in front or rear.
Define "many"

Only vehicles with "twin leading shoe" brakes use the same shoe front
and back - and I'm not aware of ANY vehicle built with twin leading
shoe brakes since the early seventies - and then only British
vehicles. The leading and trailing shoe are generally of different
lengths as well as often different friction materials.

Others are specific and
require proper position and seating. In your case, the shoes appear to
be the same but that wear is something I wouldn't simply "rotate" with
the other side. One side wearing more than the other is not normal and
should be checked, repaired/replaced then install new shoes with the
proper even thickness.

Actually it IS common - and considered normal, for the "leading shoe"
to wear differently than the "trailing shoe" on a servo type (self
energizing) brake system - which virtually all recent (modern) drum
brake systems are. the leading shoe contacts the drum, and the drag
(friction) on that shoe rotates the shoe through the linkage between
shoes, forcing the trailing shoe more firmly in contact with the drum.
This enhances the brake action beyond what would be possible strictly
by the hydraulic force from the wheel cyls.

But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
Can you advise?

It generally unhooks from the activbation lever connected to the
brake shoes. On soime cars the lever unhooks easily from the shoe and
does not NEED to be disconnected from the cable

Again - I would ADVISE you (the OP) to have a mechanic properly
repair the brakes.

Clare, prepare for the onslaught...


Just like a boyscout.

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 19:11:52 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:48:33 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

That is the SERVICE BRAKE adjustment - the parking brake adjustment
is separate - on the cable - and on the VAST majority of vehicles on
the road today the parking brake is totally self adjusting, as is the
service brake. Different schemes are used on different vehicles and
understanding how it is supposed to work is CRUCIAL to doing a safe
and effective repair.

I see your distinction between the service brake and parking brakes!

This picture from the net seems to show them both:
https://s13.postimg.org/6n4sla81j/Rear_Brakes_2.jpg


Doesn't show the handbrake (e-brake) adjuster - which is on the
cable or part of the pedal/handle.

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 19:03:54 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:36:04 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Take the vehicle to a mechanic and have the brakes professionally
repaired. You are not mentally equipped to do the job (not saying you
are stupid, but you don't understand the implications well enough to
do the job adequately.

That may be true, but I think I should be mentally equipped for something
as simple as a brake job (for example, I've done disc brakes for decades).
I've just never touched a drum brake before so everything is new.

That's why I'm doing my homework before tackling the job, which is why I
ask you for advice.

My main question was the PROCEDURE, which seems to not need me to
disconnect the parking brake cable anywhere other than actually inside the
drum assembly. That was the main question.


In all my years as a mechanic I always unhooked the e-brale linkage
from the cable on that style, and removed the whole assembly from the
backinplate as shown in your last picture - then reassebled with
whatever new parts were required. Check the cyls closely to make sure
nothing is sticking. Back off the handbrake cabke adjuster so it doies
not screw up the service brake adjustment, and after everything is
re-assembled and adjusted at the wheel end, look after the handbrake
adjustment/adjuster. Mage REAL sure the cabkes azre not hanging up
ANYWHERE or you will end up repkacing shoes again After 20 years it
would not surprise me at all if you need cyls and cables, but it IS a
Toyota and they are pretty high quality, dependable vehicles. (Iwas a
Toyota service manager for 10years)

The secondary questions will abound, based on what people ask me, such as
someone asked why I considered 295 mm to be 2mm on the safe side over the
297 mm drum diameter.

Also the implication that "something is wrong" is perfectly natural since
the front bottom half is worn more than the rest after 175K miles, but it
seems from Googling that this is normal on Toyota rear drum brakes.

There's something in the math as shown here - but it's too triggy for me.
https://s13.postimg.org/4g0jxrng7/diagram_0.jpg

This is what someone wrote about why the Toyota wears in the front bottom
https://s13.postimg.org/l3s1zwn93/diagram_1.jpg

You LIKELY need new cabvles, and ot cyls, and
or adjusters along with the shoes

I would be happy to replace anything that seems bad, but nothing seems bad
at this point other than the shoes are worn. Other than leaks (which I
don't see, nor is there any indication of loss of brake fluid), what's the
test for new cables, and cylinders and adusters?

Here's a closeup of the adjuster:
https://s13.postimg.org/senkcelrb/brakes_drum_1.jpg

Adjuster looks good, but clean and lube

Here's a picture of the parking brake setup:
https://s13.postimg.org/5egwznnt3/brakes_drum_2.jpg

And a closeup of the parking brake cable:
https://s13.postimg.org/b2n7qr2hz/brakes_drum_3.jpg

What is the test for worn condition?

The cable MUST move easily and smoothly. Same with the cyl pistons. be
carefull not to pop them out but they should both push in easily and
you should be able to slide the pair of pistons easily back and forth
in the bore.

which you MOST CERTAINLY can NOT
just swithch positions.

This is an important question, which you've now answered (as did someone
else who said the larger shoe is the rear shoe). This means "rotation"
every few years isn't possible.

The adjusters should have been backed off to
replace the drums.

I see that now, as the drum required a good few mallet hits to get it back
on. Not too many. But a few. Next time I'll turn the star adjuster before
putting the drum back on.

Thanks for the advice!

On 1/8/2018 1:34 PM, Mad Roger wrote:


Thanks for your help as this is my first set of drum brakes ever.

This is a side view closeup of the front unevenly worn shoe:
https://s13.postimg.org/mezt8lvs7/brakes_drum_4.jpg

I had been, for years, looking through the peep hole, but that showed a lot
of meat on the shoes. You really have to remove the drum to see the actual
shoe, so, after 175K miles on the same shoes, I finally removed the drum
and noticed that the front show lower end, is worn tapering to the middle,
while the rest of the shoes are just fine.


The cylinder seems to not be leaking but that's all I can tell.
There have been no unusual braking events so I'm not debugging anything.

They don't always have to leak. I've had a few that were stuck due to
some rust within the cylinder. I just replaced them since they were
cheap back in the days of yore. Though, I did take one apart and freed
it up with some cleaning. It appeared to work fine after that.

I googled a bit, and it seems "normal" for Toyota 4Runner rear brake shoes
to wear most in the front show on the bottom half. Something to do with the
geometry. I can't complain, as the shoes definitely are original so 20
years is a long time for a brake shoe to finally wear out.

I can't speak for normality but I just find it odd that it would wear
like that when there isn't a bad part. Usually, I would see one show
worn more so than the other, but never a tapered wear.

3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg

Maximum diameter of what?

The drum:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=942...m_brakes_3.jpg

In that photo you can see that the inside of the drum has a molded in
maximum diameter of 297mm. I assume that means the maximum diameter.

My calipers are in US measurements where 11.615 inches converts to about
295mm.

So I assume the drum is good by 2mm in thickness.

Are you aware of the adjusters? Each side has
one and it sits under the cylinder behind the hub.

Yes. This vehicle adjusts automatically when you brake in reverse, so I've
never dealt with them - but I am going to have to back them out for sure
when I put the new brake shoes on.

Most adjusters work with the emergency/parking brake. Though, many
people rarely, if ever, use the parking brake and those adjusters can
rust up and stop pushing the shoe against the drum.

You can see the adjuster he
https://s13.postimg.org/senkcelrb/brakes_drum_1.jpg

I'm just not sure what we're supposed to do about the parking brake cable
linkages. I don't know yet if they have to be disconnected when putting in
new brake shoes.

You can see the parking brake cable he
https://s13.postimg.org/5egwznnt3/brakes_drum_2.jpg

I have worked on many drum brakes and I have never had to remove a
parking brake cable. The cable is attached to the metal assembly and
that will just hang on the cable when you remove it and replace the
shoes. Though, if it's easy to remove and reattach, then there's no harm
in doing so.

It's job is to keep the shoes against the drum and is automatically
adjusted when the parking brake is used. Often, this is the reason why
drums are difficult to remove. They are adjusted from the other side
through an opening using an adjustment tool and often need to be
loosened in order to remove the drum. They also need to be tightened
after you replaced the shoes and re-install the drum. Retract them and
your diameter will be less than the drum.

I understand what you're saying, which is that the brake shoes may be
"wedged" against the drum, but I had the vehicle in the air and the parking
brake off, so, any wedging shouldn't be too strong.

Agreed. There should be a slight drag and minor friction when you turn
the drum, but never should be too tight where it's difficult to remove
the drum.

This is a closeup of the parking brake cable connection to the shoes:
https://s13.postimg.org/b2n7qr2hz/brakes_drum_3.jpg

As it was, putting the two 2-inch long 8mmx1.25 bolts in the two holes for
the purpose pushed the drum off easily. I had to squish the shoes a bit to
get the drum back on - and if necessary - I would have twisted the adjuster
- but I didn't need to.

The parking brake cable doesn't need to be removed, assuming it's
functioning properly. Just ensure the parking brake is not engage when
replacing shoes. The parking brake assembly will be removed when the
shoes are replaced.

Oh. OK. The parking brake seems to be a thick black cable that comes in at
the bottom of these shoes.

Yes, attached to the metal assembly which turns that adjuster.

Much depends on the vehicle. Many shoes are identical and it doesn't
matter if they are placed in front or rear. Others are specific and
require proper position and seating. In your case, the shoes appear to
be the same but that wear is something I wouldn't simply "rotate" with
the other side. One side wearing more than the other is not normal and
should be checked, repaired/replaced then install new shoes with the
proper even thickness.

I think I'll replace the shoes, but since they lasted 20 years, I was just
wondering if "rotating" them every two or three or five years would have
extended the life of them.

It's a late 90's 4Runner.


All I can say is I've never "rotated" brake shoes, since IMO, they were
cheap when I used to work on many cars. I can sympathize when only one
shoe is worn while the other(s) have ample thickness. I hate to see such
waste. The choice is yours since it appears the shoes are the same on
each side, you could simply swap them and ensure that drag and minor
friction partake when you reinstall the drum. Honestly, if it were me in
my youth as a poor teen working on my own car, that's what I would do.
But now that I'm a wealthy millionaire (that's tough to say without
laughing) Ok, now that I'm financially stable, I would just buy them and
install. Since you have to remove all the hardware anyway, installing
new shoes would be the best option.

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:06:20 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Doesn't show the handbrake (e-brake) adjuster - which is on the
cable or part of the pedal/handle.

You're correct that the handbrake is what adjusts the drums (I was wrong in
assuming it was the action of braking in reverse).

People seem to say that the "bellcrank" needs replacing, so I dug into the
terminology to find this parts diagram.
https://s9.postimg.org/h7kn548n3/parts_diagram.gif

I think the bellcrank are the funny shaped pieces.
https://s9.postimg.org/gi1ussaof/dorman_parts.jpg

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 17:20:28 -0500,
Meanie wrote:

Yes. This vehicle adjusts automatically when you brake in reverse, so I've
never dealt with them - but I am going to have to back them out for sure
when I put the new brake shoes on.

Most adjusters work with the emergency/parking brake. Though, many
people rarely, if ever, use the parking brake and those adjusters can
rust up and stop pushing the shoe against the drum.

I have since found out that you are correct and I was wrong.
Reversing won't work to adjust the drums.
The parking brake lever ratchets the adjustment.
My bad.

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 16:31:04 -0500,
Tekkie wrote:

No mad man you have not researched anything, you ask everybody and argue and
then criticize. If you HAD researched you would know all about the cables,
shoes and adjusters. You are too busy taking pix and asking questions. 1)
Take pix of brake assy after pulling drum.

Thanks for the advice, which is much appreciated.

I don't think I said I was done with my homework - just that I was asking
out of due diligence - where I have plenty more homework to do, as you are
astutely noting.

I haven't watched this whole video yet - it's an hour long - but it should
be able to give me all the physical steps necessary to replace the brakes.

Drum Brake Shoe Replacement, Timmy The Toolman
https://youtu.be/IJkVEBYSecs

Go to NAPA and ask for a brake kit and linings and cylinders because
yours will leak after you push the seals back or rebuild the cylinders.

The Toyota threads I've found insist on Toyota OEM shoes, but do say the
rest of the hardware can be gotten elsewhere.

The cylinders don't appear to be shot, but 20 years is a long time so they
probably will fare with a rebuild.

The Toyota folks say get the "u clip" which has to be bent, and which comes
standard with a factory OEM kit but might not come with the NAPA kit. We
don't have NAPA anywhere nearby, but we have other brands like Autozone,
and O'Reillys and Petboys.

Measure the drums as they may be shot after this debacle.

In the OP you see me measuring the internal diameter of the drums, which
have a limit of 297mm, but it's only 295 mm so we should be ok. Are you
intimating that the 2mm isn't enough of a safety zone?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg

I think 2mm should be enough. It would be fine on a rotor.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9428041drum_brakes_3.jpg

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:16:46 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

In all my years as a mechanic I always unhooked the e-brake linkage
from the cable on that style, and removed the whole assembly from the
backinplate as shown in your last picture - then reassebled with
whatever new parts were required.

When I googled, that's one of the methods I found people use, although most
seem to replace them, one shoe at a time (because they remarked they'd try
the full-removal method next time).

This guy did the full removal, but he completely skipped the removal steps:
https://youtu.be/TywVkpCDcCA?t=288

Check the cyls closely to make sure
nothing is sticking. Back off the handbrake cabke adjuster so it doies
not screw up the service brake adjustment, and after everything is
re-assembled and adjusted at the wheel end, look after the handbrake
adjustment/adjuster. Make REAL sure the cables are not hanging up
ANYWHERE or you will end up replacing shoes again.

Thanks for that advice.

After 20 years it
would not surprise me at all if you need cyls and cables but it IS a
Toyota and they are pretty high quality, dependable vehicles. (I was a
Toyota service manager for 10 years)

I wasn't thinking cylinders, but I'm fine with rebuilding them. I've
rebuilt master cylinders in the past where it's easy to rebuild a cylinder
with the right parts.

Mad Roger wrote:
I haven't done drum brakes ever but I'm faced with these drum brakes where
I'd just like to ask a couple of questions from those of you who have done
drum brakes before.

1. I released the parking brake from the cabin and screwed these 2-inch
long metric 8mm x 1.25mm threads bolts to pull the drum off the shoes.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5687240drum_brakes_0.jpg

2. After blowing the dust out (and not breathing it in), I could see that
the front shoe was worn down to about a millimeter or less (after 175K
miles), so I'm going to have to buy new shoes and replace them.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3478506drum_brakes_1.jpg

Wheel cylinder is bad as well. The rear shoe show virtually no wear,
that indicates the wheel cylinder isn't doing it's job.


3. I measured the drum to be 2mm smaller than the maximum diameter:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9335528drum_brakes_2.jpg

4. Where the maximum diameter of 297mm was stamped on the drum itself:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9428041drum_brakes_3.jpg

5. It was hard to get the drum back on even with the parking brake released
from the cabin, so I had to use a mallet to bang it back on:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2434045drum_brakes_4.jpg

That also says the rear shoe is stuck.


The main question is whether I'm supposed to *disconnect* the cable for the
parking brake when working on the drums, and particularly when I put the
new shoes on after I buy them.

Also, only one shoe is worn, and it's the front shoe, and it's been on
there for 175K miles, but I wonder if the shoes can be switched, so that
the front shoe is in the rear and the rear shoe is in the front, since they
wore so unevenly (sort of like rotating tires).

No, there is a leading shoe and a trailing shoe.


But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
Can you advise?

On most you just make sure it is fully released. Then you install the
new parts and adjust the base brakes so the drum just turns free. Then
you adjust the E-Brake so it applies after the number of clicks or
distance specified in the book.

--
Steve W.

On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 01:18:54 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 17:16:46 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

In all my years as a mechanic I always unhooked the e-brake linkage
from the cable on that style, and removed the whole assembly from the
backinplate as shown in your last picture - then reassebled with
whatever new parts were required.

When I googled, that's one of the methods I found people use, although most
seem to replace them, one shoe at a time (because they remarked they'd try
the full-removal method next time).

This guy did the full removal, but he completely skipped the removal steps:
https://youtu.be/TywVkpCDcCA?t=288

Check the cyls closely to make sure
nothing is sticking. Back off the handbrake cabke adjuster so it doies
not screw up the service brake adjustment, and after everything is
re-assembled and adjusted at the wheel end, look after the handbrake
adjustment/adjuster. Make REAL sure the cables are not hanging up
ANYWHERE or you will end up replacing shoes again.

Thanks for that advice.

After 20 years it
would not surprise me at all if you need cyls and cables but it IS a
Toyota and they are pretty high quality, dependable vehicles. (I was a
Toyota service manager for 10 years)

I wasn't thinking cylinders, but I'm fine with rebuilding them. I've
rebuilt master cylinders in the past where it's easy to rebuild a cylinder
with the right parts.

Don't know about the USA but almost impossible to source the rubber
parts kits here in Canada - and cyls are stupidly cheap compared to
what they used to be. (labor to rebuild costs as much as a cyl if you
are paying to have it done)

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:13:11 -0500,
Steve W. wrote:

Wheel cylinder is bad as well. The rear shoe show virtually no wear,
that indicates the wheel cylinder isn't doing it's job.

I'd agree with you given that the rear shoe, after 175K miles, still looks
perfect, while the front is worn - but all the Toyota threads seem to say
that is the way Toyota rear shoes wear.

They give this as the explanation:
https://s13.postimg.org/l3s1zwn93/diagram_1.jpg

No, there is a leading shoe and a trailing shoe.

Thanks. That explains why I've never heard of "rotating" brake shoes!

But mainly I'm not sure what the procedure is for the parking brake cable.
Can you advise?

On most you just make sure it is fully released. Then you install the
new parts and adjust the base brakes so the drum just turns free. Then
you adjust the E-Brake so it applies after the number of clicks or
distance specified in the book.

Thanks. I found a good hour-long video specifically for the Toyota.
https://youtu.be/IJkVEBYSecs

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:56:58 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Don't know about the USA but almost impossible to source the rubber
parts kits here in Canada - and cyls are stupidly cheap compared to
what they used to be. (labor to rebuild costs as much as a cyl if you
are paying to have it done)

At a hundred bucks each, I wouldn't call cylinders "stupidly cheap".

Called the local Toyota dealer, who said the cylinders are $102 each, and
the brake shoes are $157 for a set of four, so that's about $400 with tax.

Toyota doesn't sell a rebuild/repair kit for the rear brake cylinders.

I'll look around for better parts although I need to know the friction
ratings to compare shoes apples to apples.

Mad Roger posted for all of us...



In the OP you see me measuring the internal diameter of the drums, which
have a limit of 297mm, but it's only 295 mm so we should be ok. Are you
intimating that the 2mm isn't enough of a safety zone?


I didn't look at any of the pix. It should be ok if not scored or bell
mouthed or other problems.

--
Tekkie

On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 15:51:35 -0500,
Tekkie+AK4- wrote:

I didn't look at any of the pix. It should be ok if not scored or bell
mouthed or other problems.

The drums are perfectly fine in that they have 2mm to spare even after 175K
miles on the original drums.

As you're probably aware, scoring has to be huge to fail a rotor or drum
(really huge when you look at the specs, it's amazing how huge).

The shoes are $157 for a set, and the cylinders are $102 each at Toyota.

I'm going to look for a rebuild kit because these cylinders are in great
shape from the looks of it (and I already rebuilt the brake master cylinder
which was also in great shape).

On 01/09/2018 01:01 PM, Mad Roger wrote:

Tekkie+AK4- wrote:

I didn't look at any of the pix. It should be ok if not scored or bell
mouthed or other problems.

The drums are perfectly fine in that they have 2mm to spare even after 175K
miles on the original drums.

As you're probably aware, scoring has to be huge to fail a rotor or drum
(really huge when you look at the specs, it's amazing how huge).

Several ~1/4" x 1/4" plus a number of smaller ones before I noticed any
problem except screeching. Ultimately I had to replace the rotors
($10/each) when the hogging-in started. It's interesting to know that
the pad backing plates are this sturdy!

The shoes are $157 for a set, and the cylinders are $102 each at Toyota.

Jesus, that's kind of scary. For that big an investment you (or at
least *I*) might as well pay somebody else to do the work. FWIW I was
always happy with Pep Boys 'lifetime' parts. That was before most stuff
came from China, though.

If only there had been digital cameras to permanently record how those
nasty drum springs were arranged last time I did it -- I am guaranteed
to reassemble everything in every possible wrong way before finally
getting it right :-(

I'm going to look for a rebuild kit because these cylinders are in great
shape from the looks of it (and I already rebuilt the brake master cylinder
which was also in great shape).


--
Cheers, Bev
"If you were trying to be offensive, you would have succeeded if I
hadn't realized you have no idea what you are talking about."
-- FernandoP

On 1/9/2018 2:44 PM, Mad Roger wrote:
On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:56:58 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Don't know about the USA but almost impossible to source the rubber
parts kits here in Canada - and cyls are stupidly cheap compared to
what they used to be. (labor to rebuild costs as much as a cyl if you
are paying to have it done)

At a hundred bucks each, I wouldn't call cylinders "stupidly cheap".

Called the local Toyota dealer, who said the cylinders are $102 each, and
the brake shoes are $157 for a set of four, so that's about $400 with tax.

Toyota doesn't sell a rebuild/repair kit for the rear brake cylinders.

I'll look around for better parts although I need to know the friction
ratings to compare shoes apples to apples.


You might want a second opinion on those parts prices:
http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota

Then again, you might not.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 17:20:53 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:

You might want a second opinion on those parts prices:
http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota

Wow. What a difference in prices from the Toyota dealer!
It's not half, it's not a third, or a fifth - it's one tenth the price!

The only thing I need now is to know the OEM shoe friction ratings.

I'd be perfectly happy with just-as-good friction pads as OEM at those
RockAuto prices of basically $12 per "something".

I guess I need to call RockAuto in the morning at 1-608-661-1376 (Wisconsin
time zone) to figure out two critical things:

1. How many shoes come for $12 (one?, two? four?)
2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?

It's shocking that Toyota didn't know the friction rating, and RockAuto
doesn't know the friction rating based on their web page (admittedly good
prices).

The friction rating is the *most* important thing about a brake shoe -
nothing else even matters if they are a worse friction rating than what you
want.

And yet, the RockAuto page lists shoe after shoe after shoe after shoe
after shoe (Centric, Bosch, Wagner, ACDelco, RayBestos, PowerStop, Monroe,
BeckArnley, Bendix, etc.) and not one of them specifies the most important
thing about a brake shoe!

WTF? It's impossible to buy brake pads or shoes without knowing the
friction rating. Who on earth can possibly compare two brake shoes without
that critical information?

It's not like a brake shoe has any other major job but friction.

The higher the number the stronger the friction (SAE J866a):
E = 0.25-0.35
F = 0.35-0.45
G = 0.45-0.55
H = 0.55-0.65
http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm

Given RockAuto and Toyota don't seem to tell people the pad's friction
rating, I have to wonder ... do people really buy friction materials
knowing nothing about their cold & hot friction coefficients?

On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 21:01:05 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 15:51:35 -0500,
Tekkie+AK4- wrote:

I didn't look at any of the pix. It should be ok if not scored or bell
mouthed or other problems.

The drums are perfectly fine in that they have 2mm to spare even after 175K
miles on the original drums.


I have 358000km on the original rear brakes on my Ranger - and the
shoes had over half lining left when I last checked them about 15000km
ago. I've had the new shoes for 5 years, and the original owner had
them for 4 years before he sold me the truck - - -
As you're probably aware, scoring has to be huge to fail a rotor or drum
(really huge when you look at the specs, it's amazing how huge).

Actually it does not take a LOT of scoring to fail a drum - requiring
it to be turned. Then there are two different "fail" measurements -
there is a max wear and a max turn. If it is worn past a certain limit
it must be replaced, and there is a limit you can turn it to - usually
2 different measurements.

The shoes are $157 for a set, and the cylinders are $102 each at Toyota.

I believe thre are quality aftermarket sources at a fair bit less.

I'm going to look for a rebuild kit because these cylinders are in great
shape from the looks of it (and I already rebuilt the brake master cylinder
which was also in great shape).

On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 20:44:47 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:56:58 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

Don't know about the USA but almost impossible to source the rubber
parts kits here in Canada - and cyls are stupidly cheap compared to
what they used to be. (labor to rebuild costs as much as a cyl if you
are paying to have it done)

At a hundred bucks each, I wouldn't call cylinders "stupidly cheap".

Called the local Toyota dealer, who said the cylinders are $102 each, and
the brake shoes are $157 for a set of four, so that's about $400 with tax.

Toyota doesn't sell a rebuild/repair kit for the rear brake cylinders.

I'll look around for better parts although I need to know the friction
ratings to compare shoes apples to apples.
You do not need to know the ratings - just buy "oem replacement" -
they WILL be the right stuff. (there are cheaper qualities available -
usually sold as "economy") Premium shoes and oem replacement will
both be VERY close toidentical. In almost 50yuears as a mechanic
Inever once had to "match" friction materials for "stock" brake
replacement.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:31:18 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 17:20:53 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:

You might want a second opinion on those parts prices:
http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota

Wow. What a difference in prices from the Toyota dealer!
It's not half, it's not a third, or a fifth - it's one tenth the price!

The only thing I need now is to know the OEM shoe friction ratings.


You do NOT need to know the ratings. Buy their OEM quality shoes and
the manufacturer has done the homework for you. it will meet or excede
OEM spec - which is all you need or want.
I'd be perfectly happy with just-as-good friction pads as OEM at those
RockAuto prices of basically $12 per "something".

I guess I need to call RockAuto in the morning at 1-608-661-1376 (Wisconsin
time zone) to figure out two critical things:

1. How many shoes come for $12 (one?, two? four?)

They are virtually ALWAYS sourced as a set of 4 - I've never seen
shoes sold individually.
2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?

You REALLY don't need that - it's not a race car.

It's shocking that Toyota didn't know the friction rating, and RockAuto
doesn't know the friction rating based on their web page (admittedly good
prices).

That's because it is generally not required for them (or you) to know
the rating.

The friction rating is the *most* important thing about a brake shoe -
nothing else even matters if they are a worse friction rating than what you
want.

If they are OEM quality they WILL beright.

And yet, the RockAuto page lists shoe after shoe after shoe after shoe
after shoe (Centric, Bosch, Wagner, ACDelco, RayBestos, PowerStop, Monroe,
BeckArnley, Bendix, etc.) and not one of them specifies the most important
thing about a brake shoe!

They never do. Every one of those manufacturers produce oem quality
shoes, as wellas "economy" parts. You want OEM from Wagner, Centric,
Raybestos, or Bendix - not familiar with BeckArnley - but have heard
good things about their clutches - don't know PowerStop or Monroe -
and AC Delco was good when they were a part of GM - but I think it's
just a "brand" now - so no idea. No faith in anything Bosch myself -
but they MAY make a perfectly adequate product.

WTF? It's impossible to buy brake pads or shoes without knowing the
friction rating. Who on earth can possibly compare two brake shoes without
that critical information?

It's not like a brake shoe has any other major job but friction.

The higher the number the stronger the friction (SAE J866a):
E = 0.25-0.35
F = 0.35-0.45
G = 0.45-0.55
H = 0.55-0.65
http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm

Given RockAuto and Toyota don't seem to tell people the pad's friction
rating, I have to wonder ... do people really buy friction materials
knowing nothing about their cold & hot friction coefficients?


Every day of the year - I've NEVER , other than on these newsgroups
where "armchair experts" abound, heard of checking the friction rating
of replacement friction material for standard street vehicles - and
never did for navigational rallye vehicles either. That's a "track"
thing. Don't worry about it - just buy the "oem quality" or better
shoes.

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 22:04:15 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

You do NOT need to know the ratings.

I respectfully disagree with you - but I agree with you that if you buy
from someone you *trust* (e.g., the dealership or your best friend who
works at an auto parts store), then you don't need to worry about friction
ratings because *they* worry about the friction rating for you.

But let's face it.
A brake shoe has one and only one primary job.
And that's friction.

If the friction rating of the shoe is, say, EF, and you buy FF, you're
fine, but if you buy EE, then you're getting a shoe that has lower friction
coefficients than the OEM manufacturer stated.

Now, *after* you get the right friction rating, there's more to the story
(e.g., dust, noise, warranty, price, etc.), but if you don't know the OEM
friction rating, then it's impossible to correctly buy brake shoes.

You can get *lucky*.
But you are just guessing.

Buy their OEM quality shoes and
the manufacturer has done the homework for you. it will meet or excede
OEM spec - which is all you need or want.

We're both saying the same thing, which is that the friction rating (which,
by law, is printed on *every* USA pad) will meet or exceed the OEM spec if
you buy from a reliable source who would, we hope, refuse to sell you a
brake pad *lower* than the OEM spec.

Let's hope that's the case for mom and pop - but for me - I trust in the
friction rating, since it's printed on *every* shoe, it isn't hard to find
(if the shoe is in your hands).

They are virtually ALWAYS sourced as a set of 4 - I've never seen
shoes sold individually.

I did some more homework by calling the local parts stores (I had called
the dealer first) who tell me that they sell them for less than twenty
bucks for a set of four.

The wheel cylinders are cheap also, at about 16 bucks per cylinder and at
about 7 bucks for the repair kit so I'll get a couple of those too.

2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?

You REALLY don't need that - it's not a race car.

Let's just respectfully disagree on whether I should match or exceed the
friction rating of the OEM brake shoe.

In all my years with disc brakes, I've never bought a pad without knowing
the friction rating ahead of time (usually FF or GG - but mostly FF) and I
would never put on a pad that doesn't meet or exceed the OEM friction
rating.

That's because it is generally not required for them (or you) to know
the rating.

I agree that if I buy Toyota shoes from the Toyota dealership, that the
friction rating will be correct as it will be the OEM friction rating,
whatever that is.

So if I buy from the dealer, I don't need to know anything because I would
be trusting the dealer to give me the correct shoes.

If I buy from Rock Auto, then I have to make the choice based on the
friction rating first and foremost.

It's not like friction isn't an important thing for a brake shoe.

If they are OEM quality they WILL beright.

That is true. If that is true that is true.
It's not always true even if they say it's true.
I'll trust the two letters printed on the shoe itself.

They never do. Every one of those manufacturers produce oem quality
shoes, as wellas "economy" parts. You want OEM from Wagner, Centric,
Raybestos, or Bendix - not familiar with BeckArnley - but have heard
good things about their clutches - don't know PowerStop or Monroe -
and AC Delco was good when they were a part of GM - but I think it's
just a "brand" now - so no idea. No faith in anything Bosch myself -
but they MAY make a perfectly adequate product.

You seem to be cognizant of "branding" (e.g., AT&T is just a brand name,
it's no longer the same company as it was). Brands have value, but you
know, from oil filters and batteries and tires, etc., that they brand all
sorts of **** just to get more money for the same thing.

Oil filters are notorious for that. You have to dig deeply to figure out
who *really* makes that oil filter and what it looks like inside (e.g.,
paper backflow valves, glued pleats, rubber versus paper stops, etc.).

Branding is bull**** for the most part.

What I care about are friction ratings.

After that, I care about stuff that I will never get the truth on, such as
dusting, and noise, but that's just a fact of life that you can't get that
information except from enthusiasts (e.g., Jurid FF pads dust like crazy
but PBR FF pads don't ... go figure).

The *first* spec on friction material is *always* friction.

After that, you generally don't get the truth even though plenty of other
stuff matters - but the friction rating is *printed* on ever shoe so it's
unconscionable not to take it into account when purchasing shoes.

Otherwise you're just guessing.

Every day of the year - I've NEVER , other than on these newsgroups
where "armchair experts" abound, heard of checking the friction rating
of replacement friction material for standard street vehicles - and
never did for navigational rallye vehicles either. That's a "track"
thing. Don't worry about it - just buy the "oem quality" or better
shoes.

I've seen people put Wagner EE pads on a car spec'd for FF OEM pads, and
they didn't even know it.

They showed a picture of the pads and I had to tell them that the pads
didn't even meet OEM specs.

The sad thing is that they could have had Textar or Axxis pads for about
the same price that were FF or even GG.

I'll repeat that the PRIMARY job of friction material is friction.
Hence the friction coefficient is printed on all USA pads and shoes.

There's a *reason* for that.
You can certainly *trust* to luck - but I prefer to read the shoe.

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 21:48:57 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

I have 358000km on the original rear brakes on my Ranger - and the
shoes had over half lining left when I last checked them about 15000km
ago. I've had the new shoes for 5 years, and the original owner had
them for 4 years before he sold me the truck - - -

I don't disagree with your experience now that I've done some homework.
It's amazing how *long* brake shoes last, at least on the rear.

I suspect I'd get double the mileage that I saw if the Toyota brakes would
only wear evenly. Most people on the Toyota forums get more than 175K miles
but this truck was driven in very hilly country for more than a decade.

Actually it does not take a LOT of scoring to fail a drum - requiring
it to be turned. Then there are two different "fail" measurements -
there is a max wear and a max turn. If it is worn past a certain limit
it must be replaced, and there is a limit you can turn it to - usually
2 different measurements.

The problem here is that *none* of us are referencing an actual
manufacturer's specification.

I looked up the specs for a scored rotor when I had a Lexus LS 400 in the
early nineties where I was shocked at the spec. As I recall, it was thicker
than a dime, and maybe even a dime and a half as I recall, for it to fail
the rotor.

I didn't look up drums at the time (it had disc brakes all around), but I
think we're all talking out of our asses (me included!) unless and until we
dig up a real spec from the manufacturer.

It's usually *hard* to find the scoring spec; it's a lot easier to find the
thickness and runout specs, so I'm not saying it's an easy spec to find.


The shoes are $157 for a set, and the cylinders are $102 each at Toyota.

I believe thre are quality aftermarket sources at a fair bit less.

I agree.

The RockAuto site someone quoted had an axle for a lot less than twenty
bucks, so Toyota is about ten times aftermarket.

I called the local parts store and they have FF friction-rated shoes (I
asked them to read me what it says on the shoe) for $17 per axle.

At that price, it's not worth shopping around by price - but only for the
friction rating.

I haven't found the friction rating for the OEM shoes yet, so it's
impossible to buy shoes without that information. When I call for the
friction rating I get tons of bull**** about the pad material where it's
meaningless without the friction rating.

I mean, a brake pad has a primary job, and that's not dust or noise but
friction. First comes friction. Then we can talk about dust or noise or
warranty.

But friction comes first. Without the right friction rating, it's
worthless.

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 21:53:02 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

You do not need to know the ratings - just buy "oem replacement" -
they WILL be the right stuff. (there are cheaper qualities available -
usually sold as "economy") Premium shoes and oem replacement will
both be VERY close toidentical. In almost 50yuears as a mechanic
Inever once had to "match" friction materials for "stock" brake
replacement.

I think we actually agree in that I completly agree with you that if the
friction rating of the pads I get is equal to the OEM spec, then I am where
I want to be.

I also agree that we can *trust* the guy who sells me the friction material
that he wouldn't sell me a friction material that didn't meet OEM spec.

It's sort of like when buying tires, Costco won't sell you an S rated tire
if the original tires that came on the vehicle are an H rated tire. They
don't want to sell you anything less than OEM.

I get all that. So I agree with you.

However ... I like to know my ingredients, so to speak.

SO I like to know what the friction rating is for the OEM pads/shoes, and
for the pads/shoes that I buy.

You really can't fault me for wanting that information.
It's just like reading the ingredients on a label where the ingredients are
required to be listed in order by law.

Same with the friction ratings.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 03:34:21 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 21:48:57 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

I have 358000km on the original rear brakes on my Ranger - and the
shoes had over half lining left when I last checked them about 15000km
ago. I've had the new shoes for 5 years, and the original owner had
them for 4 years before he sold me the truck - - -

I don't disagree with your experience now that I've done some homework.
It's amazing how *long* brake shoes last, at least on the rear.

I suspect I'd get double the mileage that I saw if the Toyota brakes would
only wear evenly. Most people on the Toyota forums get more than 175K miles
but this truck was driven in very hilly country for more than a decade.

Actually it does not take a LOT of scoring to fail a drum - requiring
it to be turned. Then there are two different "fail" measurements -
there is a max wear and a max turn. If it is worn past a certain limit
it must be replaced, and there is a limit you can turn it to - usually
2 different measurements.

The problem here is that *none* of us are referencing an actual
manufacturer's specification.

I looked up the specs for a scored rotor when I had a Lexus LS 400 in the
early nineties where I was shocked at the spec. As I recall, it was thicker
than a dime, and maybe even a dime and a half as I recall, for it to fail
the rotor.

I didn't look up drums at the time (it had disc brakes all around), but I
think we're all talking out of our asses (me included!) unless and until we
dig up a real spec from the manufacturer.

It's been over a decade, so I don't remember ther exact specs, but I
did government safwety checks as well as servicing LOTS of vehicles
(including 4runners and Land Cruisers) and gouges in both rotors and
drums do not have to be terribly deep or wide to mandate
resurfacing/replacement.

It's usually *hard* to find the scoring spec; it's a lot easier to find the
thickness and runout specs, so I'm not saying it's an easy spec to find.

not hard at all. here's one:
https://www.cbsparts.ca/admin/bullet...nd%20Rotor.pdf

and another:
https://www.cbsparts.ca/admin/bullet...20Problems.pdf

see page 402 at :
https://books.google.ca/books?id=O01...limits&f=false

"If scoring or light grooves cannot be removed by hand (with emery
cloth) the drum MUST be refinished or replaced"

There is NO ALLOWABLE AMOUNT OF GROOVING ALLOWED ON A DRUM when
replacing friction m,aterial- PERIOD.

read ALL of:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/drum_brakes.htm




The shoes are $157 for a set, and the cylinders are $102 each at Toyota.

I believe thre are quality aftermarket sources at a fair bit less.

I agree.

The RockAuto site someone quoted had an axle for a lot less than twenty
bucks, so Toyota is about ten times aftermarket.

I called the local parts store and they have FF friction-rated shoes (I
asked them to read me what it says on the shoe) for $17 per axle.

At that price, it's not worth shopping around by price - but only for the
friction rating.

I haven't found the friction rating for the OEM shoes yet, so it's
impossible to buy shoes without that information. When I call for the
friction rating I get tons of bull**** about the pad material where it's
meaningless without the friction rating.

I mean, a brake pad has a primary job, and that's not dust or noise but
friction. First comes friction. Then we can talk about dust or noise or
warranty.

But friction comes first. Without the right friction rating, it's
worthless.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 03:34:20 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 22:04:15 -0500,
Clare Snyder wrote:

You do NOT need to know the ratings.

I respectfully disagree with you - but I agree with you that if you buy
from someone you *trust* (e.g., the dealership or your best friend who
works at an auto parts store), then you don't need to worry about friction
ratings because *they* worry about the friction rating for you.


No, your best friend whoworks at the auto parts store may be as
clueless as you are. BUY OEM SPEC PARTS and you can't go wrong.
But let's face it.
A brake shoe has one and only one primary job.
And that's friction.

If the friction rating of the shoe is, say, EF, and you buy FF, you're
fine, but if you buy EE, then you're getting a shoe that has lower friction
coefficients than the OEM manufacturer stated.

OEM SPEC parts WILL be equal to or excedingOEM specs.

Now, *after* you get the right friction rating, there's more to the story
(e.g., dust, noise, warranty, price, etc.), but if you don't know the OEM
friction rating, then it's impossible to correctly buy brake shoes.


With pads you worry about dust - not so with drums/shoes.
You can get *lucky*.
But you are just guessing.

Soare you.

Buy their OEM quality shoes and
the manufacturer has done the homework for you. it will meet or excede
OEM spec - which is all you need or want.

We're both saying the same thing, which is that the friction rating (which,
by law, is printed on *every* USA pad) will meet or exceed the OEM spec if
you buy from a reliable source who would, we hope, refuse to sell you a
brake pad *lower* than the OEM spec.

No, they will sell you what you are willing to pay for. If you want
"economy" friction, they willsell you "economy" friction - which MAY
have the same friction characteristics, but only last 50,000 miles, or
30,000 instead of 175000.

Let's hope that's the case for mom and pop - but for me - I trust in the
friction rating, since it's printed on *every* shoe, it isn't hard to find
(if the shoe is in your hands).
Then ask to see the factory shoe at the dealer and read the rating.

The "monroe premium" shoes I have "on the shelf" for my ranger are EE
on all 4 shoes.
The "certified" semi-metallic pads I have "onthe shelf" for the ranger
are EF


Since the rear brakes basically "go along for the ride" unless you
are hauling a load, the friction rating isn't TERRIBLY critical anyway
-

They are virtually ALWAYS sourced as a set of 4 - I've never seen
shoes sold individually.

I did some more homework by calling the local parts stores (I had called
the dealer first) who tell me that they sell them for less than twenty
bucks for a set of four.

The wheel cylinders are cheap also, at about 16 bucks per cylinder and at
about 7 bucks for the repair kit so I'll get a couple of those too.

LikeI said - stupidly cheap - not worth rebuilding unless the cyls are
not available.

2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?

You REALLY don't need that - it's not a race car.

Let's just respectfully disagree on whether I should match or exceed the
friction rating of the OEM brake shoe.


Didn't say you shouldn't. Just LISTEN to what I'm saying. BUY OE#M
SPEC and you GET OEM SPEC.

Listen to one of the most experienced wrenches on this newsgroup.
I've wrenched, I've been service manager, and I've taught the trade
at both secondary school and trade levels. Since 1969.
In all my years with disc brakes, I've never bought a pad without knowing
the friction rating ahead of time (usually FF or GG - but mostly FF) and I
would never put on a pad that doesn't meet or exceed the OEM friction
rating.

That's because it is generally not required for them (or you) to know
the rating.

I agree that if I buy Toyota shoes from the Toyota dealership, that the
friction rating will be correct as it will be the OEM friction rating,
whatever that is.

ANd if you buy OEM SPEC aftermarket p[arts, they will br too. What
do you not understand about OEM SPEC????

So if I buy from the dealer, I don't need to know anything because I would
be trusting the dealer to give me the correct shoes.

If I buy from Rock Auto, then I have to make the choice based on the
friction rating first and foremost.

No, you choose OEM SPEC from a TRUSTED MANUFACTURER - no matter who
you buy from.

It's not like friction isn't an important thing for a brake shoe.

If they are OEM quality they WILL beright.

That is true. If that is true that is true.
It's not always true even if they say it's true.
I'll trust the two letters printed on the shoe itself.

And who says the friction material is accurately marked???? You have
no idea where the friction material came from, and if it meets the
spec stamped on it. It is almost CERTAINLY sourced fromChina - and
likely assembled on the shoe in China, regardless of the brand, and
China will counterfeit anything, given the chance. This is where a
"trusted manufacturer" comes in, as they do "quality control" and
assure the product meets spec.

You could have FF stamped on a thich chunk of cardboard on an "xyz"
brand part and it might not even meet the loweast spec.






They never do. Every one of those manufacturers produce oem quality
shoes, as wellas "economy" parts. You want OEM from Wagner, Centric,
Raybestos, or Bendix - not familiar with BeckArnley - but have heard
good things about their clutches - don't know PowerStop or Monroe -
and AC Delco was good when they were a part of GM - but I think it's
just a "brand" now - so no idea. No faith in anything Bosch myself -
but they MAY make a perfectly adequate product.

You seem to be cognizant of "branding" (e.g., AT&T is just a brand name,
it's no longer the same company as it was). Brands have value, but you
know, from oil filters and batteries and tires, etc., that they brand all
sorts of **** just to get more money for the same thing.

Oil filters are notorious for that. You have to dig deeply to figure out
who *really* makes that oil filter and what it looks like inside (e.g.,
paper backflow valves, glued pleats, rubber versus paper stops, etc.).

Branding is bull**** for the most part.

What I care about are friction ratings.

They don't mean SQUAT if you can't trust the brand. See where I'm
coming from???

After that, I care about stuff that I will never get the truth on, such as
dusting, and noise, but that's just a fact of life that you can't get that
information except from enthusiasts (e.g., Jurid FF pads dust like crazy
but PBR FF pads don't ... go figure).

ANd over half the "enthusiasts" don't know **** from shinola - they
just listen to other "enthusiasts" or "armchair experts"

The *first* spec on friction material is *always* friction.



After that, you generally don't get the truth even though plenty of other
stuff matters - but the friction rating is *printed* on ever shoe so it's
unconscionable not to take it into account when purchasing shoes.


It's printed on the friction material by the manufacturer - can you
trust the manufacturer?????
If so, trust the manufacturer to provide OEM quality.
If not, the ratings don't mean ****.
Otherwise you're just guessing.


Like I said - BUY QUALITY and you are not guessing any more than you
are doing it your way.
Every day of the year - I've NEVER , other than on these newsgroups
where "armchair experts" abound, heard of checking the friction rating
of replacement friction material for standard street vehicles - and
never did for navigational rallye vehicles either. That's a "track"
thing. Don't worry about it - just buy the "oem quality" or better
shoes.

I've seen people put Wagner EE pads on a car spec'd for FF OEM pads, and
they didn't even know it.

Correct - there was no difference undernormal driving conditions -
they likely didn't wear the same, but they stopped the car at all
legal speeds under normal load conditions

They showed a picture of the pads and I had to tell them that the pads
didn't even meet OEM specs.

The sad thing is that they could have had Textar or Axxis pads for about
the same price that were FF or even GG.


They bopught "economy" pads - and the whiz-bang enthusiast pads may
have been no better than what they bought,
I'll repeat that the PRIMARY job of friction material is friction.
Hence the friction coefficient is printed on all USA pads and shoes.




There's a *reason* for that.
You can certainly *trust* to luck - but I prefer to read the shoe.



Then go to the dealer and check the OEM parts they have in stock, and
you will KNOW the spec. Then order the OEM quality parts from Rock,
and if they are sub-standard, send them back. No rocket science. -
unless you've ****ed off the dealership parts department and they
won't do anything for you.

I had customers that I'd refuse to do anything for because they were
cheapassed pricks who you could never satisfy, and/or they were
know-it-all know-nothings that argued with everything you told them.

If you are that kind of person (and it's looking a bit that way
because you don't listen to experience - you "know better" )- then
good luck and it looks good on you.