On 8/2/2017 12:55 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 22:45:11 -0500, Muggles
wrote:

On 8/1/2017 10:33 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 22:17:25 -0500, Muggles
wrote:

On 7/31/2017 1:18 PM, Frank wrote:

Could shop for his needs he

http://www.kolene.com/salt-bath-equi...aning-systems/

Frank... I have a chemistry question related to detergent/soap suds and
oil/grease.

I've noticed that many soaps will bubble and lather up nicely but when
it hits the oil or grease that the lather and bubbles disappear. Also,
if oil or grease is present that soap doesn't want to bubble up.

The reason I ask is I see the same thing happen when I use liquid bath
soap and bath oil. If I haven't used any bath oil in the tub, the
liquid bath soap will lather and bubble up nicely, but if I used bath
oil before using the soap, the soap won't lather up at all.

Is the oil breaking down the bath soap or vice versa? What causes the
soap to not lather up if oil is present in the water?

Soap and oil form an emulsion. That is not like either of them but it
does make the oil more mobile so it will go down the train easier.


OK I understand what you're saying.

So, why doesn't the soap bubble/lather up when oil is present in the
water? I thought the soap lather was supposed to break down the oil,
but it seems to be the other way around.

If I have soap bubbles in the water, they will totally disappear if I
add bath oil to the water.

I'm just curious as to what is chemically happening ... why does the oil
prevent the soap from foaming up?

It isn't soap anymore it is a soap/oil emulsion and the soap will not
support the bubbles. You see the same thing in dish water once oil
builds up it to the point that it has overwhelmed the soap (or
detergent). It is actually a good thing because the oil is trapped in
that emulsion, the object of the exercise. If there is sufficient soap
in the water, it will carry that oil down the drain and off to the
sewer plant.
You see it work the opposite way if there is an oil slick on the water
around your boat and you squirt some detergent in the water. The oil
is still there but the slick is gone. (a trick people do to avoid
getting busted by the enviro cops)



Thanks for the explanation!

--
Maggie

On 8/2/2017 5:40 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 8/2/2017 12:55 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 22:45:11 -0500, Muggles
wrote:

On 8/1/2017 10:33 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 22:17:25 -0500, Muggles
wrote:

On 7/31/2017 1:18 PM, Frank wrote:

Could shop for his needs he

http://www.kolene.com/salt-bath-equi...aning-systems/

Frank... I have a chemistry question related to detergent/soap suds and
oil/grease.

I've noticed that many soaps will bubble and lather up nicely but when
it hits the oil or grease that the lather and bubbles disappear. Also,
if oil or grease is present that soap doesn't want to bubble up.

The reason I ask is I see the same thing happen when I use liquid bath
soap and bath oil. If I haven't used any bath oil in the tub, the
liquid bath soap will lather and bubble up nicely, but if I used bath
oil before using the soap, the soap won't lather up at all.

Is the oil breaking down the bath soap or vice versa? What causes the
soap to not lather up if oil is present in the water?

Soap and oil form an emulsion. That is not like either of them but it
does make the oil more mobile so it will go down the train easier.


OK I understand what you're saying.

So, why doesn't the soap bubble/lather up when oil is present in the
water? I thought the soap lather was supposed to break down the oil,
but it seems to be the other way around.

If I have soap bubbles in the water, they will totally disappear if I
add bath oil to the water.

I'm just curious as to what is chemically happening ... why does the oil
prevent the soap from foaming up?

It isn't soap anymore it is a soap/oil emulsion and the soap will not
support the bubbles. You see the same thing in dish water once oil
builds up it to the point that it has overwhelmed the soap (or
detergent). It is actually a good thing because the oil is trapped in
that emulsion, the object of the exercise. If there is sufficient soap
in the water, it will carry that oil down the drain and off to the
sewer plant.
You see it work the opposite way if there is an oil slick on the water
around your boat and you squirt some detergent in the water. The oil
is still there but the slick is gone. (a trick people do to avoid
getting busted by the enviro cops)



Thanks for the explanation!

Did not see this part of the thread until now and explanation is correct.

A soap is the carboxylate salt of a fatty acid and detergents are the
same except they are sulfonate salts of long chain fatty type materials.
The salt end of the molecule is attracted to water and the fatty end
to the oil. Emulsion is a droplet of oil surrounded by the soap
suspended in the water. There are ways to break emulsions like
freezing, making acidic or salting out. A lot of products are sold as
emulsions which is why you should not freeze things like paints as you
might break the emulsion and ruin them.

Soaps do not function as well in hard water as the calcium ion causes
precipitation. Detergents can still work in hard water.

On 8/2/2017 5:53 PM, Frank wrote:
On 8/2/2017 5:40 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 8/2/2017 12:55 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 22:45:11 -0500, Muggles
wrote:

On 8/1/2017 10:33 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 22:17:25 -0500, Muggles
wrote:

On 7/31/2017 1:18 PM, Frank wrote:

Could shop for his needs he

http://www.kolene.com/salt-bath-equi...aning-systems/

Frank... I have a chemistry question related to detergent/soap
suds and
oil/grease.

I've noticed that many soaps will bubble and lather up nicely but
when
it hits the oil or grease that the lather and bubbles disappear.
Also,
if oil or grease is present that soap doesn't want to bubble up.

The reason I ask is I see the same thing happen when I use liquid
bath
soap and bath oil. If I haven't used any bath oil in the tub, the
liquid bath soap will lather and bubble up nicely, but if I used bath
oil before using the soap, the soap won't lather up at all.

Is the oil breaking down the bath soap or vice versa? What causes
the
soap to not lather up if oil is present in the water?

Soap and oil form an emulsion. That is not like either of them but it
does make the oil more mobile so it will go down the train easier.


OK I understand what you're saying.

So, why doesn't the soap bubble/lather up when oil is present in the
water? I thought the soap lather was supposed to break down the oil,
but it seems to be the other way around.

If I have soap bubbles in the water, they will totally disappear if I
add bath oil to the water.

I'm just curious as to what is chemically happening ... why does the
oil
prevent the soap from foaming up?

It isn't soap anymore it is a soap/oil emulsion and the soap will not
support the bubbles. You see the same thing in dish water once oil
builds up it to the point that it has overwhelmed the soap (or
detergent). It is actually a good thing because the oil is trapped in
that emulsion, the object of the exercise. If there is sufficient soap
in the water, it will carry that oil down the drain and off to the
sewer plant.
You see it work the opposite way if there is an oil slick on the water
around your boat and you squirt some detergent in the water. The oil
is still there but the slick is gone. (a trick people do to avoid
getting busted by the enviro cops)


Thanks for the explanation!


Did not see this part of the thread until now and explanation is correct.

A soap is the carboxylate salt of a fatty acid and detergents are the
same except they are sulfonate salts of long chain fatty type materials.
The salt end of the molecule is attracted to water and the fatty end to
the oil. Emulsion is a droplet of oil surrounded by the soap suspended
in the water. There are ways to break emulsions like freezing, making
acidic or salting out. A lot of products are sold as emulsions which is
why you should not freeze things like paints as you might break the
emulsion and ruin them.

Soaps do not function as well in hard water as the calcium ion causes
precipitation. Detergents can still work in hard water.

Thanks! I understand what you just told me.

What I'm not sure is, what causes the soap to not foam up in the
presence of oil?


--
Maggie

On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 10:53:29 PM UTC-5, Muggles wrote:
On 8/2/2017 5:53 PM, Frank wrote:
On 8/2/2017 5:40 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 8/2/2017 12:55 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 22:45:11 -0500, Muggles
wrote:

On 8/1/2017 10:33 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 22:17:25 -0500, Muggles
wrote:

On 7/31/2017 1:18 PM, Frank wrote:

Could shop for his needs he

http://www.kolene.com/salt-bath-equi...aning-systems/

Frank... I have a chemistry question related to detergent/soap
suds and
oil/grease.

I've noticed that many soaps will bubble and lather up nicely but
when
it hits the oil or grease that the lather and bubbles disappear.
Also,
if oil or grease is present that soap doesn't want to bubble up.

The reason I ask is I see the same thing happen when I use liquid
bath
soap and bath oil. If I haven't used any bath oil in the tub, the
liquid bath soap will lather and bubble up nicely, but if I used bath
oil before using the soap, the soap won't lather up at all.

Is the oil breaking down the bath soap or vice versa? What causes
the
soap to not lather up if oil is present in the water?

Soap and oil form an emulsion. That is not like either of them but it
does make the oil more mobile so it will go down the train easier.


OK I understand what you're saying.

So, why doesn't the soap bubble/lather up when oil is present in the
water? I thought the soap lather was supposed to break down the oil,
but it seems to be the other way around.

If I have soap bubbles in the water, they will totally disappear if I
add bath oil to the water.

I'm just curious as to what is chemically happening ... why does the
oil
prevent the soap from foaming up?

It isn't soap anymore it is a soap/oil emulsion and the soap will not
support the bubbles. You see the same thing in dish water once oil
builds up it to the point that it has overwhelmed the soap (or
detergent). It is actually a good thing because the oil is trapped in
that emulsion, the object of the exercise. If there is sufficient soap
in the water, it will carry that oil down the drain and off to the
sewer plant.
You see it work the opposite way if there is an oil slick on the water
around your boat and you squirt some detergent in the water. The oil
is still there but the slick is gone. (a trick people do to avoid
getting busted by the enviro cops)


Thanks for the explanation!


Did not see this part of the thread until now and explanation is correct.

On 8/3/2017 2:10 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 10:53:29 PM UTC-5, Muggles wrote:
On 8/2/2017 5:53 PM, Frank wrote:
On 8/2/2017 5:40 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 8/2/2017 12:55 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 22:45:11 -0500, Muggles
wrote:

On 8/1/2017 10:33 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 22:17:25 -0500, Muggles
wrote:

On 7/31/2017 1:18 PM, Frank wrote:

Could shop for his needs he

http://www.kolene.com/salt-bath-equi...aning-systems/

Frank... I have a chemistry question related to detergent/soap
suds and
oil/grease.

I've noticed that many soaps will bubble and lather up nicely but
when
it hits the oil or grease that the lather and bubbles disappear.
Also,
if oil or grease is present that soap doesn't want to bubble up.

The reason I ask is I see the same thing happen when I use liquid
bath
soap and bath oil. If I haven't used any bath oil in the tub, the
liquid bath soap will lather and bubble up nicely, but if I used bath
oil before using the soap, the soap won't lather up at all.

Is the oil breaking down the bath soap or vice versa? What causes
the
soap to not lather up if oil is present in the water?

Soap and oil form an emulsion. That is not like either of them but it
does make the oil more mobile so it will go down the train easier.


OK I understand what you're saying.

So, why doesn't the soap bubble/lather up when oil is present in the
water? I thought the soap lather was supposed to break down the oil,
but it seems to be the other way around.

If I have soap bubbles in the water, they will totally disappear if I
add bath oil to the water.

I'm just curious as to what is chemically happening ... why does the
oil
prevent the soap from foaming up?

It isn't soap anymore it is a soap/oil emulsion and the soap will not
support the bubbles. You see the same thing in dish water once oil
builds up it to the point that it has overwhelmed the soap (or
detergent). It is actually a good thing because the oil is trapped in
that emulsion, the object of the exercise. If there is sufficient soap
in the water, it will carry that oil down the drain and off to the
sewer plant.
You see it work the opposite way if there is an oil slick on the water
around your boat and you squirt some detergent in the water. The oil
is still there but the slick is gone. (a trick people do to avoid
getting busted by the enviro cops)


Thanks for the explanation!


Did not see this part of the thread until now and explanation is correct.


A soap is the carboxylate salt of a fatty acid and detergents are the
same except they are sulfonate salts of long chain fatty type materials.
The salt end of the molecule is attracted to water and the fatty end to
the oil. Emulsion is a droplet of oil surrounded by the soap suspended
in the water. There are ways to break emulsions like freezing, making
acidic or salting out. A lot of products are sold as emulsions which is
why you should not freeze things like paints as you might break the
emulsion and ruin them.

Soaps do not function as well in hard water as the calcium ion causes
precipitation. Detergents can still work in hard water.


Thanks! I understand what you just told me.

What I'm not sure is, what causes the soap to not foam up in the
presence of oil?




The soap ate all the oil and got so full that it popped then vanished. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Emulsified Monster


LOL

It's as good an explanation as any.

I know there's some sort of process going on when soap foams and bubbles
up whether or not it's bath soap or dish soap, and I always thought the
foam in the soap is what broke down the dirt and oils. Detergents like
Dawn seem to be able to still foam up even when oils are present,
though. Maybe, it's more than just soap like what bath soaps are that
don't foam up if oil is in the water?

I wonder how they can make bath soap products foam up when they say they
contain oils to moisturize the skin? I've noticed after using bath oil
on my skin that subsequent baths that I take the foaming bath soap still
doesn't want to lather up because of the oil/moisturizer that is still
in my skin.

Anyway, I'm more curious about the chemical process going on, and if
there were a way to keep the foaming bath soap foaming even if bath oil
were present.

--
Maggie

On Thursday, August 3, 2017 at 11:08:27 AM UTC-5, Muggles wrote:
On 8/3/2017 2:10 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:

What I'm not sure is, what causes the soap to not foam up in the
presence of oil?

The soap ate all the oil and got so full that it popped then vanished. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Emulsified Monster

LOL

It's as good an explanation as any.

I know there's some sort of process going on when soap foams and bubbles
up whether or not it's bath soap or dish soap, and I always thought the
foam in the soap is what broke down the dirt and oils. Detergents like
Dawn seem to be able to still foam up even when oils are present,
though. Maybe, it's more than just soap like what bath soaps are that
don't foam up if oil is in the water?

I wonder how they can make bath soap products foam up when they say they
contain oils to moisturize the skin? I've noticed after using bath oil
on my skin that subsequent baths that I take the foaming bath soap still
doesn't want to lather up because of the oil/moisturizer that is still
in my skin.

Anyway, I'm more curious about the chemical process going on, and if
there were a way to keep the foaming bath soap foaming even if bath oil
were present.
--
Maggie


Once a week, a member of the staff rolls me into the shower room and uses a pressure washer on me. That's the only thing that get me clean. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Dirty Monster

On 8/3/2017 11:30 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Thursday, August 3, 2017 at 11:08:27 AM UTC-5, Muggles wrote:
On 8/3/2017 2:10 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:

What I'm not sure is, what causes the soap to not foam up in the
presence of oil?

The soap ate all the oil and got so full that it popped then vanished. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Emulsified Monster

LOL

It's as good an explanation as any.

I know there's some sort of process going on when soap foams and bubbles
up whether or not it's bath soap or dish soap, and I always thought the
foam in the soap is what broke down the dirt and oils. Detergents like
Dawn seem to be able to still foam up even when oils are present,
though. Maybe, it's more than just soap like what bath soaps are that
don't foam up if oil is in the water?

I wonder how they can make bath soap products foam up when they say they
contain oils to moisturize the skin? I've noticed after using bath oil
on my skin that subsequent baths that I take the foaming bath soap still
doesn't want to lather up because of the oil/moisturizer that is still
in my skin.

Anyway, I'm more curious about the chemical process going on, and if
there were a way to keep the foaming bath soap foaming even if bath oil
were present.
--
Maggie


Once a week, a member of the staff rolls me into the shower room and uses a pressure washer on me. That's the only thing that get me clean. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Dirty Monster


LOL You crack me up!

--
Maggie

On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 09:30:55 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

Once a week, a member of the staff rolls me into the shower room and uses a pressure washer on me. That's the only thing that get me clean. ?(?)?

[8~{} Uncle Dirty Monster

Danny was going to use a pressure washer on his pots and pans. Maybe
he is out chasing them around the yard?

Muggles wrote in newslvhi0$iam$1
@wxy247t1uve70-5cv.eternal-september.org:

I know there's some sort of process going on when soap foams and bubbles
up whether or not it's bath soap or dish soap, and I always thought the
foam in the soap is what broke down the dirt and oils.

Nope. It's the soap in the water that breaks down oils and helps dissolve or suspend dirt.

http://www.explainthatstuff.com/detergents.html

Foam forms when soapy water is agitated because the surface tension of soapy water is
much lower than that of pure water, that's all.

If it were the foam doing the cleaning, how would a clothes washer ever get your clothing
clean? The foam is all on top of the water, and the clothing is under the water.

Detergents like
Dawn seem to be able to still foam up even when oils are present,
though. Maybe, it's more than just soap like what bath soaps are that
don't foam up if oil is in the water?

I wonder how they can make bath soap products foam up when they say they
contain oils to moisturize the skin? I've noticed after using bath oil
on my skin that subsequent baths that I take the foaming bath soap still
doesn't want to lather up because of the oil/moisturizer that is still
in my skin.

Anyway, I'm more curious about the chemical process going on, and if
there were a way to keep the foaming bath soap foaming even if bath oil
were present.

On 8/3/2017 12:29 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
Muggles wrote in newslvhi0$iam$1
@wxy247t1uve70-5cv.eternal-september.org:

I know there's some sort of process going on when soap foams and bubbles
up whether or not it's bath soap or dish soap, and I always thought the
foam in the soap is what broke down the dirt and oils.


Nope. It's the soap in the water that breaks down oils and helps dissolve or suspend dirt.

http://www.explainthatstuff.com/detergents.html

Foam forms when soapy water is agitated because the surface tension of soapy water is
much lower than that of pure water, that's all.

If it were the foam doing the cleaning, how would a clothes washer ever get your clothing
clean? The foam is all on top of the water, and the clothing is under the water.

OK Thanks for the link!

The one thing I haven't seen a specific answer to is why does bath oil
prevent soap from foaming up?

For example, when I put the liquid bath soap onto a bath puff, it
usually will foam up when I add water to it.

If add some bath oil to the water first, and then try to use water with
bath oil in it to foam up the soap filled bath puff, it's like the bath
soap doesn't do anything - doesn't foam up, and is useless to wash with.

I understand what has been mentioned thus far in the explanations about
the molecules and emulsions.

Does oil prevent soap from foaming up because the reaction between the
two is instantaneous and soap becomes an emulsion on contact with oil,
therefore, no longer actually being soap?


Detergents like
Dawn seem to be able to still foam up even when oils are present,
though. Maybe, it's more than just soap like what bath soaps are that
don't foam up if oil is in the water?

I wonder how they can make bath soap products foam up when they say they
contain oils to moisturize the skin? I've noticed after using bath oil
on my skin that subsequent baths that I take the foaming bath soap still
doesn't want to lather up because of the oil/moisturizer that is still
in my skin.

Anyway, I'm more curious about the chemical process going on, and if
there were a way to keep the foaming bath soap foaming even if bath oil
were present.




--
Maggie

Muggles wrote in newslvudp$cvf$1
@wxy247t1uve70-5cv.eternal-september.org:

On 8/3/2017 12:29 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
Muggles wrote in newslvhi0$iam$1
@wxy247t1uve70-5cv.eternal-september.org:

I know there's some sort of process going on when soap foams and bubbles
up whether or not it's bath soap or dish soap, and I always thought the
foam in the soap is what broke down the dirt and oils.


Nope. It's the soap in the water that breaks down oils and helps dissolve or suspend dirt.

http://www.explainthatstuff.com/detergents.html

Foam forms when soapy water is agitated because the surface tension of soapy water is
much lower than that of pure water, that's all.

If it were the foam doing the cleaning, how would a clothes washer ever get your clothing
clean? The foam is all on top of the water, and the clothing is under the water.

OK Thanks for the link!

The one thing I haven't seen a specific answer to is why does bath oil
prevent soap from foaming up?

A soap bubble is a layer of water a few molecules thick, sandwiched between two layers of
soap molecules (or the other way around, I misremember which) -- the key is that this is
enabled by the lowered surface tension of the water that comes from dissolving soap in it.
Dissolving oil into the soap as well disrupts this process, and a bubble won't form.

For example, when I put the liquid bath soap onto a bath puff, it
usually will foam up when I add water to it.

If add some bath oil to the water first, and then try to use water with
bath oil in it to foam up the soap filled bath puff, it's like the bath
soap doesn't do anything - doesn't foam up,

OK so far...

and is useless to wash with.

It's *less* useful, but that's not synonymous with useless.

I understand what has been mentioned thus far in the explanations about
the molecules and emulsions.

Does oil prevent soap from foaming up because the reaction between the
two is instantaneous and soap becomes an emulsion on contact with oil,
therefore, no longer actually being soap?

Almost right. The soap permits the water and oil to form an emulsion. And that's why soap
works to get things clean: it turns something that won't mix with water into something that will.

On 8/4/2017 10:02 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
Muggles wrote in newslvudp$cvf$1
@wxy247t1uve70-5cv.eternal-september.org:

On 8/3/2017 12:29 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
Muggles wrote in newslvhi0$iam$1
@wxy247t1uve70-5cv.eternal-september.org:

I know there's some sort of process going on when soap foams and bubbles
up whether or not it's bath soap or dish soap, and I always thought the
foam in the soap is what broke down the dirt and oils.


Nope. It's the soap in the water that breaks down oils and helps dissolve or suspend dirt.

http://www.explainthatstuff.com/detergents.html

Foam forms when soapy water is agitated because the surface tension of soapy water is
much lower than that of pure water, that's all.

If it were the foam doing the cleaning, how would a clothes washer ever get your clothing
clean? The foam is all on top of the water, and the clothing is under the water.

OK Thanks for the link!

The one thing I haven't seen a specific answer to is why does bath oil
prevent soap from foaming up?

A soap bubble is a layer of water a few molecules thick, sandwiched between two layers of
soap molecules (or the other way around, I misremember which) -- the key is that this is
enabled by the lowered surface tension of the water that comes from dissolving soap in it.
Dissolving oil into the soap as well disrupts this process, and a bubble won't form.

OK! An answer. I understand.

For example, when I put the liquid bath soap onto a bath puff, it
usually will foam up when I add water to it.

If add some bath oil to the water first, and then try to use water with
bath oil in it to foam up the soap filled bath puff, it's like the bath
soap doesn't do anything - doesn't foam up,

OK so far...

and is useless to wash with.


It's *less* useful, but that's not synonymous with useless.


hmmm So, are you saying even though the soap doesn't foam up, it's still
useful as a cleaning agent......

I understand what has been mentioned thus far in the explanations about
the molecules and emulsions.

Does oil prevent soap from foaming up because the reaction between the
two is instantaneous and soap becomes an emulsion on contact with oil,
therefore, no longer actually being soap?

Almost right. The soap permits the water and oil to form an emulsion. And that's why soap
works to get things clean: it turns something that won't mix with water into something that will.


....... as in, that it's useful in the sense that it "permits the water
and oil to form an emulsion" that assists in it's ability to clean things?

So, even though I don't see the soap foaming up, it's still working to
clean the body?

--
Maggie