On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:16:55 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 23:01, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:14:36 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:

Theoretically possible but that's not the case here. Every year, when
the raining season comes and the main breaker is tripped, I can always
trace to the same sub-breakers that cause the problem and turn them
down. They are not tripped all at the same time but they are always the
same four breakers that have the problem.


How do you identify which one caused it? Does it immediately trip the
main again when you put the offending breaker on, ie the fault is
still there? If so, if it's not intermittent, I would think you'd
immediately further track down what the source of the fault is.


I flipped all sub breakers down and flipped them one by one to locate
the offending breaker. Once I found the offending breaker, I left it
down and everything would be fine. Well, except that particular circuit
that was turned off.



I studied the breaker box and found that it's not like what I usually
saw in the US. It has a 75 A main breaker labelled Ground-First FL Main
(this is a two-story building). There are two 63 A breakers labelled
Ground FL Main and another two 63 A breakers labelled First FL main.
Looks like this is a three-tier system. It is the same 63A breaker that
is tripped during raining season.

Do you really mean tripping or that it's something on that 63A breaker that
causes the main to trip? You said the main was tripping, not the
other breaker. Also this picture is different than what I think most
of us were envisioning, which was a typical main panel with individual
branch circuits, not a main that feeds what appears to be two subpanels,
That shouldn't really matter though.


Sorry for the confusion. I had not known the system was this complex
before I checked it. There are two panes. One contains a main 75A
breaker with four 63 A sub-main breakers. Before, I had been saying
"main breaker". It turned out to be a 63A sub-main breaker.

There is another panel containing about 50 breakers (actually, this
panel has two chambers, one containing 50 or so breakers, the other
empty). There are no more panels.

What do you believe the total load normal load on it is, just before
it trips? What's going on at the subpanels when this happens,
those 63A breakers must feed subpanels of some kind.
Anything tripped there? As to why the 75A trips first, it makes
more sense now. Breakers have curves as to how fast they trip
versus the size of the fault. Different breakers will have different
curves and they are not exact. What you have is a 63A breaker and
a 75A both exposed to an overload. Additionally, you don't tell us
what else is on that main panel besides the two 63A breakers, but
if there are other circuits, then the 75A is seeing whatever the 63A
one is, plus those other loads. With other loads, no surprise it
trips first. Even without other loads, if you present a major over
load to both, the 75A might trip first if it's curve is slightly
different.

I would think main breakers would have a slightly longer response time
so to give time to sub breakers to trip.


Where are you? We were assuming this is US.

Thailand.

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?

On 7/10/2017 8:08 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:16:55 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 23:01, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:14:36 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:

Theoretically possible but that's not the case here. Every year, when
the raining season comes and the main breaker is tripped, I can always
trace to the same sub-breakers that cause the problem and turn them
down. They are not tripped all at the same time but they are always the
same four breakers that have the problem.


How do you identify which one caused it? Does it immediately trip the
main again when you put the offending breaker on, ie the fault is
still there? If so, if it's not intermittent, I would think you'd
immediately further track down what the source of the fault is.


I flipped all sub breakers down and flipped them one by one to locate
the offending breaker. Once I found the offending breaker, I left it
down and everything would be fine. Well, except that particular circuit
that was turned off.



I studied the breaker box and found that it's not like what I usually
saw in the US. It has a 75 A main breaker labelled Ground-First FL Main
(this is a two-story building). There are two 63 A breakers labelled
Ground FL Main and another two 63 A breakers labelled First FL main.
Looks like this is a three-tier system. It is the same 63A breaker that
is tripped during raining season.

Do you really mean tripping or that it's something on that 63A breaker that
causes the main to trip? You said the main was tripping, not the
other breaker. Also this picture is different than what I think most
of us were envisioning, which was a typical main panel with individual
branch circuits, not a main that feeds what appears to be two subpanels,
That shouldn't really matter though.


Sorry for the confusion. I had not known the system was this complex
before I checked it. There are two panes. One contains a main 75A
breaker with four 63 A sub-main breakers. Before, I had been saying
"main breaker". It turned out to be a 63A sub-main breaker.

There is another panel containing about 50 breakers (actually, this
panel has two chambers, one containing 50 or so breakers, the other
empty). There are no more panels.

What do you believe the total load normal load on it is, just before
it trips? What's going on at the subpanels when this happens,
those 63A breakers must feed subpanels of some kind.
Anything tripped there? As to why the 75A trips first, it makes
more sense now. Breakers have curves as to how fast they trip
versus the size of the fault. Different breakers will have different
curves and they are not exact. What you have is a 63A breaker and
a 75A both exposed to an overload. Additionally, you don't tell us
what else is on that main panel besides the two 63A breakers, but
if there are other circuits, then the 75A is seeing whatever the 63A
one is, plus those other loads. With other loads, no surprise it
trips first. Even without other loads, if you present a major over
load to both, the 75A might trip first if it's curve is slightly
different.

I would think main breakers would have a slightly longer response time
so to give time to sub breakers to trip.


Where are you? We were assuming this is US.

Thailand.

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?


But that wouldn't trip the main.

On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 11:30:42 PM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
On 7/10/2017 8:08 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:16:55 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 23:01, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:14:36 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:

Theoretically possible but that's not the case here. Every year, when
the raining season comes and the main breaker is tripped, I can always
trace to the same sub-breakers that cause the problem and turn them
down. They are not tripped all at the same time but they are always the
same four breakers that have the problem.


How do you identify which one caused it? Does it immediately trip the
main again when you put the offending breaker on, ie the fault is
still there? If so, if it's not intermittent, I would think you'd
immediately further track down what the source of the fault is.


I flipped all sub breakers down and flipped them one by one to locate
the offending breaker. Once I found the offending breaker, I left it
down and everything would be fine. Well, except that particular circuit
that was turned off.



I studied the breaker box and found that it's not like what I usually
saw in the US. It has a 75 A main breaker labelled Ground-First FL Main
(this is a two-story building). There are two 63 A breakers labelled
Ground FL Main and another two 63 A breakers labelled First FL main.
Looks like this is a three-tier system. It is the same 63A breaker that
is tripped during raining season.

Do you really mean tripping or that it's something on that 63A breaker that
causes the main to trip? You said the main was tripping, not the
other breaker. Also this picture is different than what I think most
of us were envisioning, which was a typical main panel with individual
branch circuits, not a main that feeds what appears to be two subpanels,
That shouldn't really matter though.


Sorry for the confusion. I had not known the system was this complex
before I checked it. There are two panes. One contains a main 75A
breaker with four 63 A sub-main breakers. Before, I had been saying
"main breaker". It turned out to be a 63A sub-main breaker.

There is another panel containing about 50 breakers (actually, this
panel has two chambers, one containing 50 or so breakers, the other
empty). There are no more panels.

What do you believe the total load normal load on it is, just before
it trips? What's going on at the subpanels when this happens,
those 63A breakers must feed subpanels of some kind.
Anything tripped there? As to why the 75A trips first, it makes
more sense now. Breakers have curves as to how fast they trip
versus the size of the fault. Different breakers will have different
curves and they are not exact. What you have is a 63A breaker and
a 75A both exposed to an overload. Additionally, you don't tell us
what else is on that main panel besides the two 63A breakers, but
if there are other circuits, then the 75A is seeing whatever the 63A
one is, plus those other loads. With other loads, no surprise it
trips first. Even without other loads, if you present a major over
load to both, the 75A might trip first if it's curve is slightly
different.

I would think main breakers would have a slightly longer response time
so to give time to sub breakers to trip.


Where are you? We were assuming this is US.

Thailand.

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?


But that wouldn't trip the main.

It would if the main is a gfci. I haven't seen that here, but he's in Thailand, who knows what equipment they have there. Even here, it would be an easy way to gfci protect a whole house. The downside would be harder to isolate the fault and losing all power. And also I think his main may actually be a sub panel.

On 11/07/2017 09:38, DerbyDad03 wrote:

In an earlier post you said that the only difference you see when the
offending breaker is off are the garden lights. Now you say that it
it is "different ones on different occasions, a total of four breakers".

Does that mean that you have 4 breakers for the garden lights and that
any (and only) one of them might be the offending one at any given time?
10 lights on 4 different circuits and the problems move from circuit to
circuit?

If so, then that means that only 1 of the 4 circuits is getting wet at
a time, which is really strange. It also means that all 4 circuits have
some type of moisture issue, which is also kind of strange - unless the
fixtures are crappy and/or the person who did the original wiring screwed
up all 4 circuits.

Since garden lights are not working, one of the four must be responsible
for them. I have no clue what the other three breakers are for.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:50:24 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 09:38, DerbyDad03 wrote:

In an earlier post you said that the only difference you see when the
offending breaker is off are the garden lights. Now you say that it
it is "different ones on different occasions, a total of four breakers".

Does that mean that you have 4 breakers for the garden lights and that
any (and only) one of them might be the offending one at any given time?
10 lights on 4 different circuits and the problems move from circuit to
circuit?

If so, then that means that only 1 of the 4 circuits is getting wet at
a time, which is really strange. It also means that all 4 circuits have
some type of moisture issue, which is also kind of strange - unless the
fixtures are crappy and/or the person who did the original wiring screwed
up all 4 circuits.

Since garden lights are not working, one of the four must be responsible
for them. I have no clue what the other three breakers are for.

Since you seem to have isolated it to moisture problems in your garden
lights, I would see if you can see where the water is getting in and
seal them up.
We have a lot of that type of thing here in Florida. I have found you
want to open the wiring compartments, get all of the wires centered in
the box is best you can so they are not touching the sides and
pointing up so water tends to drain out of the connections.

On 07/10/2017 08:54 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 23:48, wrote:


OK - Euro system. Different problems. No "load balance" issues. 2
"main breakers" in the building. One never trips. The other trips when
it is wet outside. You have external lighting circuits on that main.
You most likely have leakage in those 2 circuits, not enough to trip
the branch breakers, but enough to load the main heavily enough that
the rest of the loads, combined with the circuit leakage, overloads
the main. Find out what is on the circuits in question and get those
circuits checked and fixed - or permanently disconnected.


I flipped the offending breakers to turn them off until dry season
comes. Then, I turn them on. The only difference I notice is the
garden lights.


It sounds like your electrical system was installed by an imbecile. A
proper electrical system will work in all weather.

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 2:09:00 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:50:24 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 09:38, DerbyDad03 wrote:

In an earlier post you said that the only difference you see when the
offending breaker is off are the garden lights. Now you say that it
it is "different ones on different occasions, a total of four breakers".

Does that mean that you have 4 breakers for the garden lights and that
any (and only) one of them might be the offending one at any given time?
10 lights on 4 different circuits and the problems move from circuit to
circuit?

If so, then that means that only 1 of the 4 circuits is getting wet at
a time, which is really strange. It also means that all 4 circuits have
some type of moisture issue, which is also kind of strange - unless the
fixtures are crappy and/or the person who did the original wiring screwed
up all 4 circuits.

Since garden lights are not working, one of the four must be responsible
for them. I have no clue what the other three breakers are for.

Since you seem to have isolated it to moisture problems in your garden
lights, I would see if you can see where the water is getting in and
seal them up.

I no longer think that's the case. Now he says that only 1 of the 4 possible
breakers that needs to be left off is for the garden lights. He doesn't
know what the other 3 are for. That tells me that when any 1 of the other 3
breakers are left off, something(s) isn't working, but he has no idea what.

Seems to me that he might as well just leave those other 3 breakers off all of
the time since they apparently have no impact on his life. *Then* he can fix
the garden lights and never have a problem again.

Did he really say that he has over 50 breakers and no real clue what
any of them (other than the garden light one) do? Holy crap.




We have a lot of that type of thing here in Florida. I have found you
want to open the wiring compartments, get all of the wires centered in
the box is best you can so they are not touching the sides and
pointing up so water tends to drain out of the connections.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 03:56:18 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 2:09:00 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:50:24 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 09:38, DerbyDad03 wrote:

In an earlier post you said that the only difference you see when the
offending breaker is off are the garden lights. Now you say that it
it is "different ones on different occasions, a total of four breakers".

Does that mean that you have 4 breakers for the garden lights and that
any (and only) one of them might be the offending one at any given time?
10 lights on 4 different circuits and the problems move from circuit to
circuit?

If so, then that means that only 1 of the 4 circuits is getting wet at
a time, which is really strange. It also means that all 4 circuits have
some type of moisture issue, which is also kind of strange - unless the
fixtures are crappy and/or the person who did the original wiring screwed
up all 4 circuits.

Since garden lights are not working, one of the four must be responsible
for them. I have no clue what the other three breakers are for.

Since you seem to have isolated it to moisture problems in your garden
lights, I would see if you can see where the water is getting in and
seal them up.

I no longer think that's the case. Now he says that only 1 of the 4 possible
breakers that needs to be left off is for the garden lights. He doesn't
know what the other 3 are for. That tells me that when any 1 of the other 3
breakers are left off, something(s) isn't working, but he has no idea what.

Seems to me that he might as well just leave those other 3 breakers off all of
the time since they apparently have no impact on his life. *Then* he can fix
the garden lights and never have a problem again.

Did he really say that he has over 50 breakers and no real clue what
any of them (other than the garden light one) do? Holy crap.



He also says it happens when it rains.
One thing I learned as an inspector is when a guy makes a mistake
installing stuff, he does it a lot. With 50 circuits, there is a real
good chance 4 of them feed wet location loads.
I have a typical US service and I have at least half dozen circuits
with an outdoor load.





We have a lot of that type of thing here in Florida. I have found you
want to open the wiring compartments, get all of the wires centered in
the box is best you can so they are not touching the sides and
pointing up so water tends to drain out of the connections.

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 11:35:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 03:56:18 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 2:09:00 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:50:24 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 09:38, DerbyDad03 wrote:

In an earlier post you said that the only difference you see when the
offending breaker is off are the garden lights. Now you say that it
it is "different ones on different occasions, a total of four breakers".

Does that mean that you have 4 breakers for the garden lights and that
any (and only) one of them might be the offending one at any given time?
10 lights on 4 different circuits and the problems move from circuit to
circuit?

If so, then that means that only 1 of the 4 circuits is getting wet at
a time, which is really strange. It also means that all 4 circuits have
some type of moisture issue, which is also kind of strange - unless the
fixtures are crappy and/or the person who did the original wiring screwed
up all 4 circuits.

Since garden lights are not working, one of the four must be responsible
for them. I have no clue what the other three breakers are for.

Since you seem to have isolated it to moisture problems in your garden
lights, I would see if you can see where the water is getting in and
seal them up.

I no longer think that's the case. Now he says that only 1 of the 4 possible
breakers that needs to be left off is for the garden lights. He doesn't
know what the other 3 are for. That tells me that when any 1 of the other 3
breakers are left off, something(s) isn't working, but he has no idea what.

Seems to me that he might as well just leave those other 3 breakers off all of
the time since they apparently have no impact on his life. *Then* he can fix
the garden lights and never have a problem again.

Did he really say that he has over 50 breakers and no real clue what
any of them (other than the garden light one) do? Holy crap.



He also says it happens when it rains.
One thing I learned as an inspector is when a guy makes a mistake
installing stuff, he does it a lot. With 50 circuits, there is a real
good chance 4 of them feed wet location loads.
I have a typical US service and I have at least half dozen circuits
with an outdoor load.


I agree except that it's pretty strange that he says that it can be any
1 of 4 circuits that cause the main to trip, yet he only sees one that
makes a difference - the one for the lights. Whatever "load" is getting
wet on the other 3 is not known to him. The only thing I can think of
is receptacles that he doesn't use and perhaps has not located. Testing
them would be pretty easy once he locates them.

It's also strange that - if I understand his explanation correctly - it's
always only *1* of the 4 at any given time. With 4 possible circuits that
can - and apparently do - get wet and cause the problem, why would it always
be just a random 1 of them that causes the problem at any given time? Is the
rain in Thailand selective?

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 18:51:13 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 11:35:25 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 03:56:18 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 2:09:00 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:50:24 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 09:38, DerbyDad03 wrote:

In an earlier post you said that the only difference you see when the
offending breaker is off are the garden lights. Now you say that it
it is "different ones on different occasions, a total of four breakers".

Does that mean that you have 4 breakers for the garden lights and that
any (and only) one of them might be the offending one at any given time?
10 lights on 4 different circuits and the problems move from circuit to
circuit?

If so, then that means that only 1 of the 4 circuits is getting wet at
a time, which is really strange. It also means that all 4 circuits have
some type of moisture issue, which is also kind of strange - unless the
fixtures are crappy and/or the person who did the original wiring screwed
up all 4 circuits.

Since garden lights are not working, one of the four must be responsible
for them. I have no clue what the other three breakers are for.

Since you seem to have isolated it to moisture problems in your garden
lights, I would see if you can see where the water is getting in and
seal them up.

I no longer think that's the case. Now he says that only 1 of the 4 possible
breakers that needs to be left off is for the garden lights. He doesn't
know what the other 3 are for. That tells me that when any 1 of the other 3
breakers are left off, something(s) isn't working, but he has no idea what.

Seems to me that he might as well just leave those other 3 breakers off all of
the time since they apparently have no impact on his life. *Then* he can fix
the garden lights and never have a problem again.

Did he really say that he has over 50 breakers and no real clue what
any of them (other than the garden light one) do? Holy crap.



He also says it happens when it rains.
One thing I learned as an inspector is when a guy makes a mistake
installing stuff, he does it a lot. With 50 circuits, there is a real
good chance 4 of them feed wet location loads.
I have a typical US service and I have at least half dozen circuits
with an outdoor load.


I agree except that it's pretty strange that he says that it can be any
1 of 4 circuits that cause the main to trip, yet he only sees one that
makes a difference - the one for the lights. Whatever "load" is getting
wet on the other 3 is not known to him. The only thing I can think of
is receptacles that he doesn't use and perhaps has not located. Testing
them would be pretty easy once he locates them.

It's also strange that - if I understand his explanation correctly - it's
always only *1* of the 4 at any given time. With 4 possible circuits that
can - and apparently do - get wet and cause the problem, why would it always
be just a random 1 of them that causes the problem at any given time? Is the
rain in Thailand selective?
My "suspicion" is any one , or possibly combination of 2, would cause
the problem. Still don't know exactly what amperage the branch
breakers are, but he has a 63 amp "sub-main" that trips. If he has 7.5
amp breakers (equivalent to 15 amp 120 volt) and he has 25 running an
average of 1/4 capacity, that is 46.875 amps. Say the other 4 are at 6
amps each, the main may trip,(70 amps) while shutting any 1 off may
keep it from tripping at 64. The "short" resistance in the 4 may not
be exactly the same - one may draw heavier than the other on a given
day (it IS a "random" fault) - so shutting all 4 off, then turning the
others on, it may be different combinations that work from day to day.

On 11/07/2017 08:53, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 08:09:58 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 00:55, wrote:


Because it is an RCD. (30ma GFCI for you Americans)
Fix your water infiltration problem on the outside circuit.


No. They are regular breakers. GFCI breakers have a test button. Mine don't.

Are you sure your main is not an RCD? Is there a reset button? (The
RCDs I have seen don't have a test button) You say 63a and that
immediately says this is not the US because we do not have 63a
breakers here. I thought most countries with 220v used RCDs.

New Zealand
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...i/Breakers.jpg

I have uploaded two photos of the main breaker box. Please see:

https://www.pexels.com/photo/486475/
https://www.pexels.com/photo/486476/

Yes. You are right. One has a test button which doesn't work. I pressed
it. The breaker wasn't tripped.

The closer I look at the main breaker box, the more confusion I get. At
first, when I saw four breakers surrounding a main breaker, I assume
they are parallel. But now, when I look at the cable connection, it
seems to me the two Ground FL breakers are in serial, same for the other
two First FL breakers.

I don't know why a 63A breaker is connected to another 63A breaker in
serial.

On 10/07/2017 23:25, wrote:

Get busy and map the breakers!!!!

Since I have turned off four breakers. Is there a way to find out what
circuits they control? I can't turn them on because that would trip the
sub-main breaker.

On 11/07/2017 17:26, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I no longer think that's the case. Now he says that only 1 of the 4 possible
breakers that needs to be left off is for the garden lights. He doesn't
know what the other 3 are for. That tells me that when any 1 of the other 3
breakers are left off, something(s) isn't working, but he has no idea what.

Seems to me that he might as well just leave those other 3 breakers off all of
the time since they apparently have no impact on his life. *Then* he can fix
the garden lights and never have a problem again.

That's what I have been doing.

Did he really say that he has over 50 breakers and no real clue what
any of them (other than the garden light one) do? Holy crap.


I don't own the house. My relative does.

On 12/07/2017 08:21, DerbyDad03 wrote:

It's also strange that - if I understand his explanation correctly - it's
always only *1* of the 4 at any given time. With 4 possible circuits that
can - and apparently do - get wet and cause the problem, why would it always
be just a random 1 of them that causes the problem at any given time? Is the
rain in Thailand selective?

Maybe there is a better way of saying it but what I meant was when a
sub-main breaker was tripped, I turned off all breakers and flipped them
one by one to find the culprit. When I found it, I marked it and turned
it off. Next time when the sub-main breaker was tripped, I repeated the
same procedure. So far, four breakers have been turned off and there is
no more tripping.

On 12/07/2017 08:54, wrote:

My "suspicion" is any one , or possibly combination of 2, would cause
the problem. Still don't know exactly what amperage the branch
breakers are, but he has a 63 amp "sub-main" that trips. If he has 7.5
amp breakers (equivalent to 15 amp 120 volt) and he has 25 running an
average of 1/4 capacity, that is 46.875 amps. Say the other 4 are at 6
amps each, the main may trip,(70 amps) while shutting any 1 off may
keep it from tripping at 64. The "short" resistance in the 4 may not
be exactly the same - one may draw heavier than the other on a given
day (it IS a "random" fault) - so shutting all 4 off, then turning the
others on, it may be different combinations that work from day to day.

Well, I have about 10 lights, one water heater (about 30 gallon), one
ceiling fan, three refrigerators. When I turned on TV/DVD, used a
kettle, turned on A/C, used the range in the kitchen, the breaker was
not tripped. It would take a lot more than these to overload a 63A breaker.

On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 09:23:25 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 08:53, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 08:09:58 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 00:55, wrote:


Because it is an RCD. (30ma GFCI for you Americans)
Fix your water infiltration problem on the outside circuit.


No. They are regular breakers. GFCI breakers have a test button. Mine don't.

Are you sure your main is not an RCD? Is there a reset button? (The
RCDs I have seen don't have a test button) You say 63a and that
immediately says this is not the US because we do not have 63a
breakers here. I thought most countries with 220v used RCDs.

New Zealand
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...i/Breakers.jpg

I have uploaded two photos of the main breaker box. Please see:

https://www.pexels.com/photo/486475/
https://www.pexels.com/photo/486476/

Yes. You are right. One has a test button which doesn't work. I pressed
it. The breaker wasn't tripped.

The closer I look at the main breaker box, the more confusion I get. At
first, when I saw four breakers surrounding a main breaker, I assume
they are parallel. But now, when I look at the cable connection, it
seems to me the two Ground FL breakers are in serial, same for the other
two First FL breakers.

I don't know why a 63A breaker is connected to another 63A breaker in
serial.


The ones with 4 wires are RCDs

On 7/10/2017 8:56 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 11:30:42 PM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
On 7/10/2017 8:08 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:16:55 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 23:01, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:14:36 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:

Theoretically possible but that's not the case here. Every year, when
the raining season comes and the main breaker is tripped, I can always
trace to the same sub-breakers that cause the problem and turn them
down. They are not tripped all at the same time but they are always the
same four breakers that have the problem.


How do you identify which one caused it? Does it immediately trip the
main again when you put the offending breaker on, ie the fault is
still there? If so, if it's not intermittent, I would think you'd
immediately further track down what the source of the fault is.


I flipped all sub breakers down and flipped them one by one to locate
the offending breaker. Once I found the offending breaker, I left it
down and everything would be fine. Well, except that particular circuit
that was turned off.



I studied the breaker box and found that it's not like what I usually
saw in the US. It has a 75 A main breaker labelled Ground-First FL Main
(this is a two-story building). There are two 63 A breakers labelled
Ground FL Main and another two 63 A breakers labelled First FL main.
Looks like this is a three-tier system. It is the same 63A breaker that
is tripped during raining season.

Do you really mean tripping or that it's something on that 63A breaker that
causes the main to trip? You said the main was tripping, not the
other breaker. Also this picture is different than what I think most
of us were envisioning, which was a typical main panel with individual
branch circuits, not a main that feeds what appears to be two subpanels,
That shouldn't really matter though.


Sorry for the confusion. I had not known the system was this complex
before I checked it. There are two panes. One contains a main 75A
breaker with four 63 A sub-main breakers. Before, I had been saying
"main breaker". It turned out to be a 63A sub-main breaker.

There is another panel containing about 50 breakers (actually, this
panel has two chambers, one containing 50 or so breakers, the other
empty). There are no more panels.

What do you believe the total load normal load on it is, just before
it trips? What's going on at the subpanels when this happens,
those 63A breakers must feed subpanels of some kind.
Anything tripped there? As to why the 75A trips first, it makes
more sense now. Breakers have curves as to how fast they trip
versus the size of the fault. Different breakers will have different
curves and they are not exact. What you have is a 63A breaker and
a 75A both exposed to an overload. Additionally, you don't tell us
what else is on that main panel besides the two 63A breakers, but
if there are other circuits, then the 75A is seeing whatever the 63A
one is, plus those other loads. With other loads, no surprise it
trips first. Even without other loads, if you present a major over
load to both, the 75A might trip first if it's curve is slightly
different.

I would think main breakers would have a slightly longer response time
so to give time to sub breakers to trip.


Where are you? We were assuming this is US.

Thailand.

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?


But that wouldn't trip the main.

It would if the main is a gfci. I haven't seen that here, but he's in Thailand, who knows what equipment they have there. Even here, it would be an easy way to gfci protect a whole house. The downside would be harder to isolate the fault and losing all power. And also I think his main may actually be a sub panel.


That seems a little far-fetched.

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 11:57:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 09:23:25 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 08:53, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 08:09:58 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 00:55, wrote:


Because it is an RCD. (30ma GFCI for you Americans)
Fix your water infiltration problem on the outside circuit.


No. They are regular breakers. GFCI breakers have a test button. Mine don't.

Are you sure your main is not an RCD? Is there a reset button? (The
RCDs I have seen don't have a test button) You say 63a and that
immediately says this is not the US because we do not have 63a
breakers here. I thought most countries with 220v used RCDs.

New Zealand
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...i/Breakers.jpg

I have uploaded two photos of the main breaker box. Please see:

https://www.pexels.com/photo/486475/
https://www.pexels.com/photo/486476/

Yes. You are right. One has a test button which doesn't work. I pressed
it. The breaker wasn't tripped.

The closer I look at the main breaker box, the more confusion I get. At
first, when I saw four breakers surrounding a main breaker, I assume
they are parallel. But now, when I look at the cable connection, it
seems to me the two Ground FL breakers are in serial, same for the other
two First FL breakers.

I don't know why a 63A breaker is connected to another 63A breaker in
serial.


The ones with 4 wires are RCDs

That's what I was thinking too. The bottom two have a 4th wire marked "N". A neutral going through a breaker would seem to indicate it's an RCD/gfci type breaker. Still don't understand all that's there, ie why there are series breakers, why there are 3 hots, etc. But agree that it's RCD and wet wires, not overload that are causing the trips.

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 12:10:13 AM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
On 7/10/2017 8:56 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 11:30:42 PM UTC-4, Bob F wrote:
On 7/10/2017 8:08 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:16:55 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 23:01, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:14:36 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:

Theoretically possible but that's not the case here. Every year, when
the raining season comes and the main breaker is tripped, I can always
trace to the same sub-breakers that cause the problem and turn them
down. They are not tripped all at the same time but they are always the
same four breakers that have the problem.


How do you identify which one caused it? Does it immediately trip the
main again when you put the offending breaker on, ie the fault is
still there? If so, if it's not intermittent, I would think you'd
immediately further track down what the source of the fault is.


I flipped all sub breakers down and flipped them one by one to locate
the offending breaker. Once I found the offending breaker, I left it
down and everything would be fine. Well, except that particular circuit
that was turned off.



I studied the breaker box and found that it's not like what I usually
saw in the US. It has a 75 A main breaker labelled Ground-First FL Main
(this is a two-story building). There are two 63 A breakers labelled
Ground FL Main and another two 63 A breakers labelled First FL main.

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?




RCD = residual current device

cute

m

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 9:45:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?




RCD = residual current device

cute

m

And from the pics he provided, it looks like the bottom two are RCD,
because they have the neutral running through them. Funny thing here
is that with all the talk over days now about RCD/GFCI breakers being
involved, I haven't seen anything from the OP even acknowledging that
part of the discussion. It's almost surely the reason for the trips.

On 12/07/2017 20:24, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 9:45:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?




RCD = residual current device

cute

m

And from the pics he provided, it looks like the bottom two are RCD,
because they have the neutral running through them. Funny thing here
is that with all the talk over days now about RCD/GFCI breakers being
involved, I haven't seen anything from the OP even acknowledging that
part of the discussion. It's almost surely the reason for the trips.

That's beyond my knowledge.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 23:50:44 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 11:57:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 09:23:25 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 08:53, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 08:09:58 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 00:55, wrote:


Because it is an RCD. (30ma GFCI for you Americans)
Fix your water infiltration problem on the outside circuit.


No. They are regular breakers. GFCI breakers have a test button. Mine don't.

Are you sure your main is not an RCD? Is there a reset button? (The
RCDs I have seen don't have a test button) You say 63a and that
immediately says this is not the US because we do not have 63a
breakers here. I thought most countries with 220v used RCDs.

New Zealand
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...i/Breakers.jpg

I have uploaded two photos of the main breaker box. Please see:

https://www.pexels.com/photo/486475/
https://www.pexels.com/photo/486476/

Yes. You are right. One has a test button which doesn't work. I pressed
it. The breaker wasn't tripped.

The closer I look at the main breaker box, the more confusion I get. At
first, when I saw four breakers surrounding a main breaker, I assume
they are parallel. But now, when I look at the cable connection, it
seems to me the two Ground FL breakers are in serial, same for the other
two First FL breakers.

I don't know why a 63A breaker is connected to another 63A breaker in
serial.


The ones with 4 wires are RCDs

That's what I was thinking too. The bottom two have a 4th wire marked "N". A neutral going through a breaker would seem to indicate it's an RCD/gfci type breaker. Still don't understand all that's there, ie why there are series breakers, why there are 3 hots, etc. But agree that it's RCD and wet wires, not overload that are causing the trips.

3 phase. It is not unusual on large services out there in 220v land

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 10:34:09 AM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 12/07/2017 20:24, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 9:45:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?




RCD = residual current device

cute

m

And from the pics he provided, it looks like the bottom two are RCD,
because they have the neutral running through them. Funny thing here
is that with all the talk over days now about RCD/GFCI breakers being
involved, I haven't seen anything from the OP even acknowledging that
part of the discussion. It's almost surely the reason for the trips.

That's beyond my knowledge.

Well, you better learn or call an electrician, because it's central to
your problem. I tried to explain previously, RCD or GFCI are safety
devices that are designed to trip if there is a fault current, one as
small as 6ma. They look at the current going out and compare it to
the current coming back. IF they differ by more than about 6 ma,
it trips because it indicates that some of the current isn't flowing
in the intended path, but making it's way via another path, typically
to ground. That path could be you sticking your wet finger into a
receptacle, a faulty appliance with a partial short to the case,
or in your case, probably wet wiring outside. That RCD breaker isn't
tripping because it sees over 63A, it's tripping because it sees a
small ground fault, which is very common.

I may be totally misunderstanding, this has been a long thread.

But if I get this, there's a main breaker that trips while the four breakers it feeds (that turn out to be really two circuits, each with two breakers in series) do not trip.

That seemed strange if they were tripping on an overload. Really the individual breaker should trip first.

Now we know the main breaker is RCD, so it can trip on small unbalanced current. But the two subcircuits are protected by RCDs (obviously added in series later to meet the requirement) so why do they not trip? One or both of those RCDs must be defective.

Kind of nice a power panel in Thailand is neatly labeled in English.

On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:23:24 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 12/07/2017 08:54, wrote:

My "suspicion" is any one , or possibly combination of 2, would cause
the problem. Still don't know exactly what amperage the branch
breakers are, but he has a 63 amp "sub-main" that trips. If he has 7.5
amp breakers (equivalent to 15 amp 120 volt) and he has 25 running an
average of 1/4 capacity, that is 46.875 amps. Say the other 4 are at 6
amps each, the main may trip,(70 amps) while shutting any 1 off may
keep it from tripping at 64. The "short" resistance in the 4 may not
be exactly the same - one may draw heavier than the other on a given
day (it IS a "random" fault) - so shutting all 4 off, then turning the
others on, it may be different combinations that work from day to day.

Well, I have about 10 lights, one water heater (about 30 gallon), one
ceiling fan, three refrigerators. When I turned on TV/DVD, used a
kettle, turned on A/C, used the range in the kitchen, the breaker was
not tripped. It would take a lot more than these to overload a 63A breaker.
You have NO IDEA what amperage the other 4 (that cause the trip) are
drawing. What is the rating of the branch circuit breakers? The water
heater is likely 30 amps, the range is likely 40 amps (if it's all
turned on). That is already more than 63 amps!!! If the range is off,
it draws nothing, of course - but you do not indicate if it is in use.
The fridges could be drawing 3.5 amps each - perhaps 7 when starting,
and about the same when running the auto defrost cycle. When it kicked
the kettle wa not in use? Or the AC? Were the lights on? With
everything else turned off, can you turn on the 4 "bad" breakers
without tripping the main?

On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 21:04:02 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 12/07/2017 20:24, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 9:45:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?




RCD = residual current device

cute

m

And from the pics he provided, it looks like the bottom two are RCD,
because they have the neutral running through them. Funny thing here
is that with all the talk over days now about RCD/GFCI breakers being
involved, I haven't seen anything from the OP even acknowledging that
part of the discussion. It's almost surely the reason for the trips.

That's beyond my knowledge.
IF they are the ones that trip - definitely.

On 13/07/2017 03:57, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:23:24 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 12/07/2017 08:54, wrote:

My "suspicion" is any one , or possibly combination of 2, would cause
the problem. Still don't know exactly what amperage the branch
breakers are, but he has a 63 amp "sub-main" that trips. If he has 7.5
amp breakers (equivalent to 15 amp 120 volt) and he has 25 running an
average of 1/4 capacity, that is 46.875 amps. Say the other 4 are at 6
amps each, the main may trip,(70 amps) while shutting any 1 off may
keep it from tripping at 64. The "short" resistance in the 4 may not
be exactly the same - one may draw heavier than the other on a given
day (it IS a "random" fault) - so shutting all 4 off, then turning the
others on, it may be different combinations that work from day to day.

Well, I have about 10 lights, one water heater (about 30 gallon), one
ceiling fan, three refrigerators. When I turned on TV/DVD, used a
kettle, turned on A/C, used the range in the kitchen, the breaker was
not tripped. It would take a lot more than these to overload a 63A breaker.
You have NO IDEA what amperage the other 4 (that cause the trip) are
drawing. What is the rating of the branch circuit breakers? The water
heater is likely 30 amps, the range is likely 40 amps (if it's all
turned on). That is already more than 63 amps!!! If the range is off,
it draws nothing, of course - but you do not indicate if it is in use.
The fridges could be drawing 3.5 amps each - perhaps 7 when starting,
and about the same when running the auto defrost cycle. When it kicked
the kettle wa not in use? Or the AC? Were the lights on? With
everything else turned off, can you turn on the 4 "bad" breakers
without tripping the main?

Can't tell the rating of most of the breakers. The electrician who
installed them did a great job labeling every one of them. The label
sticker is right on the rating. Judging from the size of the breakers,
they could be 13, 16, or 20 A.

My point of mentioning A/C, range, etc. was that besides those
constantly on appliances, the breaker was not tripped when A/C or range
was turned on. The breaker was tripped when A/C or range was not on. So,
it kind of excludes overloading.

Now it turns out that the tripped sub-main breaker is a GFCI, a wet
circuit is almost certain the cause of the problem.

On 13/07/2017 03:57, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:23:24 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 12/07/2017 08:54, wrote:

My "suspicion" is any one , or possibly combination of 2, would cause
the problem. Still don't know exactly what amperage the branch
breakers are, but he has a 63 amp "sub-main" that trips. If he has 7.5
amp breakers (equivalent to 15 amp 120 volt) and he has 25 running an
average of 1/4 capacity, that is 46.875 amps. Say the other 4 are at 6
amps each, the main may trip,(70 amps) while shutting any 1 off may
keep it from tripping at 64. The "short" resistance in the 4 may not
be exactly the same - one may draw heavier than the other on a given
day (it IS a "random" fault) - so shutting all 4 off, then turning the
others on, it may be different combinations that work from day to day.

Well, I have about 10 lights, one water heater (about 30 gallon), one
ceiling fan, three refrigerators. When I turned on TV/DVD, used a
kettle, turned on A/C, used the range in the kitchen, the breaker was
not tripped. It would take a lot more than these to overload a 63A breaker.
You have NO IDEA what amperage the other 4 (that cause the trip) are
drawing. What is the rating of the branch circuit breakers? The water
heater is likely 30 amps, the range is likely 40 amps (if it's all
turned on). That is already more than 63 amps!!! If the range is off,
it draws nothing, of course - but you do not indicate if it is in use.
The fridges could be drawing 3.5 amps each - perhaps 7 when starting,
and about the same when running the auto defrost cycle. When it kicked
the kettle wa not in use? Or the AC? Were the lights on? With
everything else turned off, can you turn on the 4 "bad" breakers
without tripping the main?

If I turn on the bad breakers, the sub-main GFCI breaker will be
tripped. Maybe not be immediately. Maybe in one or two days. To save the
trouble, I just leave them off.

On 12/07/2017 22:09, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 10:34:09 AM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 12/07/2017 20:24, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 9:45:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?




RCD = residual current device

cute

m

And from the pics he provided, it looks like the bottom two are RCD,
because they have the neutral running through them. Funny thing here
is that with all the talk over days now about RCD/GFCI breakers being
involved, I haven't seen anything from the OP even acknowledging that
part of the discussion. It's almost surely the reason for the trips.

That's beyond my knowledge.

Well, you better learn or call an electrician, because it's central to
your problem. I tried to explain previously, RCD or GFCI are safety
devices that are designed to trip if there is a fault current, one as
small as 6ma. They look at the current going out and compare it to
the current coming back. IF they differ by more than about 6 ma,
it trips because it indicates that some of the current isn't flowing
in the intended path, but making it's way via another path, typically
to ground. That path could be you sticking your wet finger into a
receptacle, a faulty appliance with a partial short to the case,
or in your case, probably wet wiring outside. That RCD breaker isn't
tripping because it sees over 63A, it's tripping because it sees a
small ground fault, which is very common.


The test button doesn't work. When I pressed it, nothing happened.
Should I replace with a new one? It costs about $50 which is cheap
compared with the price in the US. I remember seeing one 10 or 15 A GFCI
breaker for $49 and that's long time ago.

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 8:50:47 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 12/07/2017 22:09, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 10:34:09 AM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 12/07/2017 20:24, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 9:45:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?




RCD = residual current device

cute

m

And from the pics he provided, it looks like the bottom two are RCD,
because they have the neutral running through them. Funny thing here
is that with all the talk over days now about RCD/GFCI breakers being
involved, I haven't seen anything from the OP even acknowledging that
part of the discussion. It's almost surely the reason for the trips.

That's beyond my knowledge.

Well, you better learn or call an electrician, because it's central to
your problem. I tried to explain previously, RCD or GFCI are safety
devices that are designed to trip if there is a fault current, one as
small as 6ma. They look at the current going out and compare it to
the current coming back. IF they differ by more than about 6 ma,
it trips because it indicates that some of the current isn't flowing
in the intended path, but making it's way via another path, typically
to ground. That path could be you sticking your wet finger into a
receptacle, a faulty appliance with a partial short to the case,
or in your case, probably wet wiring outside. That RCD breaker isn't
tripping because it sees over 63A, it's tripping because it sees a
small ground fault, which is very common.


The test button doesn't work. When I pressed it, nothing happened.
Should I replace with a new one? It costs about $50 which is cheap
compared with the price in the US. I remember seeing one 10 or 15 A GFCI
breaker for $49 and that's long time ago.

Yes, if the test button doesn't work, it's no good. What's still
not clear is which ones are tripping, are they all RCD that are
tripping?

On 13/07/2017 08:20, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 8:50:47 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 12/07/2017 22:09, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 10:34:09 AM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 12/07/2017 20:24, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 9:45:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?




RCD = residual current device

cute

m

And from the pics he provided, it looks like the bottom two are RCD,
because they have the neutral running through them. Funny thing here
is that with all the talk over days now about RCD/GFCI breakers being
involved, I haven't seen anything from the OP even acknowledging that
part of the discussion. It's almost surely the reason for the trips.

That's beyond my knowledge.

Well, you better learn or call an electrician, because it's central to
your problem. I tried to explain previously, RCD or GFCI are safety
devices that are designed to trip if there is a fault current, one as
small as 6ma. They look at the current going out and compare it to
the current coming back. IF they differ by more than about 6 ma,
it trips because it indicates that some of the current isn't flowing
in the intended path, but making it's way via another path, typically
to ground. That path could be you sticking your wet finger into a
receptacle, a faulty appliance with a partial short to the case,
or in your case, probably wet wiring outside. That RCD breaker isn't
tripping because it sees over 63A, it's tripping because it sees a
small ground fault, which is very common.


The test button doesn't work. When I pressed it, nothing happened.
Should I replace with a new one? It costs about $50 which is cheap
compared with the price in the US. I remember seeing one 10 or 15 A GFCI
breaker for $49 and that's long time ago.

Yes, if the test button doesn't work, it's no good. What's still
not clear is which ones are tripping, are they all RCD that are
tripping?

The one at the bottom-right corner which is for ground floor. It makes
sense that the outdoor garden lights circuit is on it, not on the 1st
floor breaker.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 07:04:53 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 13/07/2017 03:57, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:23:24 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 12/07/2017 08:54, wrote:

My "suspicion" is any one , or possibly combination of 2, would cause
the problem. Still don't know exactly what amperage the branch
breakers are, but he has a 63 amp "sub-main" that trips. If he has 7.5
amp breakers (equivalent to 15 amp 120 volt) and he has 25 running an
average of 1/4 capacity, that is 46.875 amps. Say the other 4 are at 6
amps each, the main may trip,(70 amps) while shutting any 1 off may
keep it from tripping at 64. The "short" resistance in the 4 may not
be exactly the same - one may draw heavier than the other on a given
day (it IS a "random" fault) - so shutting all 4 off, then turning the
others on, it may be different combinations that work from day to day.

Well, I have about 10 lights, one water heater (about 30 gallon), one
ceiling fan, three refrigerators. When I turned on TV/DVD, used a
kettle, turned on A/C, used the range in the kitchen, the breaker was
not tripped. It would take a lot more than these to overload a 63A breaker.
You have NO IDEA what amperage the other 4 (that cause the trip) are
drawing. What is the rating of the branch circuit breakers? The water
heater is likely 30 amps, the range is likely 40 amps (if it's all
turned on). That is already more than 63 amps!!! If the range is off,
it draws nothing, of course - but you do not indicate if it is in use.
The fridges could be drawing 3.5 amps each - perhaps 7 when starting,
and about the same when running the auto defrost cycle. When it kicked
the kettle wa not in use? Or the AC? Were the lights on? With
everything else turned off, can you turn on the 4 "bad" breakers
without tripping the main?

Can't tell the rating of most of the breakers. The electrician who
installed them did a great job labeling every one of them. The label
sticker is right on the rating. Judging from the size of the breakers,
they could be 13, 16, or 20 A.


In a euro 240 style system I highly doubt most are over 7.5 amps.
My point of mentioning A/C, range, etc. was that besides those
constantly on appliances, the breaker was not tripped when A/C or range
was turned on. The breaker was tripped when A/C or range was not on. So,
it kind of excludes overloading.

Now it turns out that the tripped sub-main breaker is a GFCI, a wet
circuit is almost certain the cause of the problem.

\Being the sub-mains which are being tripped are GFCI breakers, you
can bet the farm on it. No idea why they have such a ludicrous system
- the branch circuits should be GFCI protected.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 07:20:40 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 12/07/2017 22:09, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 10:34:09 AM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 12/07/2017 20:24, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 9:45:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:

Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button?




RCD = residual current device

cute

m

And from the pics he provided, it looks like the bottom two are RCD,
because they have the neutral running through them. Funny thing here
is that with all the talk over days now about RCD/GFCI breakers being
involved, I haven't seen anything from the OP even acknowledging that
part of the discussion. It's almost surely the reason for the trips.

That's beyond my knowledge.

Well, you better learn or call an electrician, because it's central to
your problem. I tried to explain previously, RCD or GFCI are safety
devices that are designed to trip if there is a fault current, one as
small as 6ma. They look at the current going out and compare it to
the current coming back. IF they differ by more than about 6 ma,
it trips because it indicates that some of the current isn't flowing
in the intended path, but making it's way via another path, typically
to ground. That path could be you sticking your wet finger into a
receptacle, a faulty appliance with a partial short to the case,
or in your case, probably wet wiring outside. That RCD breaker isn't
tripping because it sees over 63A, it's tripping because it sees a
small ground fault, which is very common.


The test button doesn't work. When I pressed it, nothing happened.
Should I replace with a new one? It costs about $50 which is cheap
compared with the price in the US. I remember seeing one 10 or 15 A GFCI
breaker for $49 and that's long time ago.
Replace if the test does not function - GFCI breakers have gone down
in price significantly in the USA - not so much in Canada.

On 13/07/2017 09:33, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 07:04:53 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 13/07/2017 03:57, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:23:24 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 12/07/2017 08:54, wrote:

My "suspicion" is any one , or possibly combination of 2, would cause
the problem. Still don't know exactly what amperage the branch
breakers are, but he has a 63 amp "sub-main" that trips. If he has 7.5
amp breakers (equivalent to 15 amp 120 volt) and he has 25 running an
average of 1/4 capacity, that is 46.875 amps. Say the other 4 are at 6
amps each, the main may trip,(70 amps) while shutting any 1 off may
keep it from tripping at 64. The "short" resistance in the 4 may not
be exactly the same - one may draw heavier than the other on a given
day (it IS a "random" fault) - so shutting all 4 off, then turning the
others on, it may be different combinations that work from day to day.

Well, I have about 10 lights, one water heater (about 30 gallon), one
ceiling fan, three refrigerators. When I turned on TV/DVD, used a
kettle, turned on A/C, used the range in the kitchen, the breaker was
not tripped. It would take a lot more than these to overload a 63A breaker.
You have NO IDEA what amperage the other 4 (that cause the trip) are
drawing. What is the rating of the branch circuit breakers? The water
heater is likely 30 amps, the range is likely 40 amps (if it's all
turned on). That is already more than 63 amps!!! If the range is off,
it draws nothing, of course - but you do not indicate if it is in use.
The fridges could be drawing 3.5 amps each - perhaps 7 when starting,
and about the same when running the auto defrost cycle. When it kicked
the kettle wa not in use? Or the AC? Were the lights on? With
everything else turned off, can you turn on the 4 "bad" breakers
without tripping the main?

Can't tell the rating of most of the breakers. The electrician who
installed them did a great job labeling every one of them. The label
sticker is right on the rating. Judging from the size of the breakers,
they could be 13, 16, or 20 A.


In a euro 240 style system I highly doubt most are over 7.5 amps.
My point of mentioning A/C, range, etc. was that besides those
constantly on appliances, the breaker was not tripped when A/C or range
was turned on. The breaker was tripped when A/C or range was not on. So,
it kind of excludes overloading.

Now it turns out that the tripped sub-main breaker is a GFCI, a wet
circuit is almost certain the cause of the problem.

\Being the sub-mains which are being tripped are GFCI breakers, you
can bet the farm on it. No idea why they have such a ludicrous system
- the branch circuits should be GFCI protected.

I just checked eBay. The price is still around $50 a piece.

Maybe I should replace those four problematic breakers with GFCI, beside
replacing the sub-main breaker.

On 07/12/2017 08:43 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
If I turn on the bad breakers, the sub-main GFCI breaker will be
tripped. Maybe not be immediately. Maybe in one or two days. To save
the trouble, I just leave them off.


Hello! McFly! Maybe you could buy a clamp-on amp meter and diagnose WTF
is going on?

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:28:13 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 13/07/2017 09:33, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 07:04:53 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 13/07/2017 03:57, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:23:24 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 12/07/2017 08:54, wrote:

My "suspicion" is any one , or possibly combination of 2, would cause
the problem. Still don't know exactly what amperage the branch
breakers are, but he has a 63 amp "sub-main" that trips. If he has 7.5
amp breakers (equivalent to 15 amp 120 volt) and he has 25 running an
average of 1/4 capacity, that is 46.875 amps. Say the other 4 are at 6
amps each, the main may trip,(70 amps) while shutting any 1 off may
keep it from tripping at 64. The "short" resistance in the 4 may not
be exactly the same - one may draw heavier than the other on a given
day (it IS a "random" fault) - so shutting all 4 off, then turning the
others on, it may be different combinations that work from day to day.

Well, I have about 10 lights, one water heater (about 30 gallon), one
ceiling fan, three refrigerators. When I turned on TV/DVD, used a
kettle, turned on A/C, used the range in the kitchen, the breaker was
not tripped. It would take a lot more than these to overload a 63A breaker.
You have NO IDEA what amperage the other 4 (that cause the trip) are
drawing. What is the rating of the branch circuit breakers? The water
heater is likely 30 amps, the range is likely 40 amps (if it's all
turned on). That is already more than 63 amps!!! If the range is off,
it draws nothing, of course - but you do not indicate if it is in use.
The fridges could be drawing 3.5 amps each - perhaps 7 when starting,
and about the same when running the auto defrost cycle. When it kicked
the kettle wa not in use? Or the AC? Were the lights on? With
everything else turned off, can you turn on the 4 "bad" breakers
without tripping the main?

Can't tell the rating of most of the breakers. The electrician who
installed them did a great job labeling every one of them. The label
sticker is right on the rating. Judging from the size of the breakers,
they could be 13, 16, or 20 A.


In a euro 240 style system I highly doubt most are over 7.5 amps.
My point of mentioning A/C, range, etc. was that besides those
constantly on appliances, the breaker was not tripped when A/C or range
was turned on. The breaker was tripped when A/C or range was not on. So,
it kind of excludes overloading.

Now it turns out that the tripped sub-main breaker is a GFCI, a wet
circuit is almost certain the cause of the problem.

\Being the sub-mains which are being tripped are GFCI breakers, you
can bet the farm on it. No idea why they have such a ludicrous system
- the branch circuits should be GFCI protected.

I just checked eBay. The price is still around $50 a piece.

Maybe I should replace those four problematic breakers with GFCI, beside
replacing the sub-main breaker.
I'd try just replacing the breakers on the problem circuits first -
they should trip at something like 5ma where the mains trip at 30ma?
fault current.

On 7/12/2017 8:38 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 23:50:44 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 11:57:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 09:23:25 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 08:53, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 08:09:58 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote:

On 11/07/2017 00:55, wrote:


Because it is an RCD. (30ma GFCI for you Americans)
Fix your water infiltration problem on the outside circuit.


No. They are regular breakers. GFCI breakers have a test button. Mine don't.

Are you sure your main is not an RCD? Is there a reset button? (The
RCDs I have seen don't have a test button) You say 63a and that
immediately says this is not the US because we do not have 63a
breakers here. I thought most countries with 220v used RCDs.

New Zealand
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...i/Breakers.jpg

I have uploaded two photos of the main breaker box. Please see:

https://www.pexels.com/photo/486475/
https://www.pexels.com/photo/486476/

Yes. You are right. One has a test button which doesn't work. I pressed
it. The breaker wasn't tripped.

The closer I look at the main breaker box, the more confusion I get. At
first, when I saw four breakers surrounding a main breaker, I assume
they are parallel. But now, when I look at the cable connection, it
seems to me the two Ground FL breakers are in serial, same for the other
two First FL breakers.

I don't know why a 63A breaker is connected to another 63A breaker in
serial.


The ones with 4 wires are RCDs

That's what I was thinking too. The bottom two have a 4th wire marked "N". A neutral going through a breaker would seem to indicate it's an RCD/gfci type breaker. Still don't understand all that's there, ie why there are series breakers, why there are 3 hots, etc. But agree that it's RCD and wet wires, not overload that are causing the trips.

3 phase. It is not unusual on large services out there in 220v land


(Nice call on RCD.)

------------------------
One of the important questions about an electric power system is how it
handles a hot-to-ground short - a ground fault.

In the US the fault current is carried on the ground system to the
service where it goes across the required neutral-ground bond to the
service neutral and back to the supply transformer. This is an all-metal
path that can supply the high current to trip a breaker. An earth
connection is not allowed to be used because it can not reliably carry a
high current. (What is the current if you connect 120V to a ground rod
that is a code-compliant 25 ohms-to-earth?)

In parts of the UK the neutral is earthed at the supply transformer but
not elsewhere. There is no N-G bond at the building. That means the
fault current return is through the earth, which will not reliably trip
a breaker. I think that is why RCD main-breakers are used - the earth
fault return current will trip an RCD. That may be why this system has
RCDs. The only number I have seen for an RCD trip is 30 mA. That seems
like it would be subject to nuisance trips. It is also the number I have
seen for RCDs protecting people - seems too close to the can't-let-go
current.

In the US, as most of us know, GFCIs to protect people trip at 5 mA.
There are GFIs to protect equipment that trip at 30 mA. And AFCIs
include a ground fault trip, I think always at 50 mA.

-------------------------------
The pictures show devices in series. Likely the top unit is an ordinary
over-current breaker and the bottom one is only an RCD.

Likely a large main breaker in the center (that is how it is marked),
fed from the bottom, feeding 2 - RCD-protected feeders.

------------------------------
A 63 A (67?) 220V 3 ph feed is equivalent to about a 190 A split-phase
service here.

------------------------------
Would be a good idea for the OP to google the breaker information to
find specs and instructions.

-----------------------------
As a warning - the service may only be about 150 A. But a short on the
service wires before the breaker can have a current of thousands of amps
- would be very unpleasant.

------------------------------
And this newsgroup is mostly US, though we humor some foreigners from
north of the border. Happy to answer questions, but would have helped
for the OP to say he is in Thailand, especially on a question like this.

On 7/11/2017 8:29 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 23:25, wrote:

Get busy and map the breakers!!!!

Since I have turned off four breakers. Is there a way to find out what
circuits they control? I can't turn them on because that would trip the
sub-main breaker.

All four of them trip the main? You have serious problems on those four.

You could disconnect/unplug/turn off everything on each circuit and see
if any of the devices are the problem.

You could use a VOM (Volt/Ohm meter) and a long wire. Connect the wire
to the wire at the breaker, and drag the other end to each
device/outlet/light that is off with the four breakers off. test for
continuity between the wire and the hot connection at each device. Do
the same for each breaker.

You could connect the wire at each breaker one-at-a-time through a light
bulb to the breaker (disconnect the wire from the breaker) to supply a
lower current to the line, then go test for a lower voltage at each
device to find out what devices are on that breaker. If multiple
breakers seem to show up at the same device, that could indicate a short
between 2 circuits somewhere.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 19:10:54 -0600, bud-- wrote:




3 phase. It is not unusual on large services out there in 220v land


(Nice call on RCD.)

------------------------
One of the important questions about an electric power system is how it
handles a hot-to-ground short - a ground fault.

In the US the fault current is carried on the ground system to the
service where it goes across the required neutral-ground bond to the
service neutral and back to the supply transformer. This is an all-metal
path that can supply the high current to trip a breaker. An earth
connection is not allowed to be used because it can not reliably carry a
high current. (What is the current if you connect 120V to a ground rod
that is a code-compliant 25 ohms-to-earth?)

In parts of the UK the neutral is earthed at the supply transformer but
not elsewhere. There is no N-G bond at the building. That means the
fault current return is through the earth, which will not reliably trip
a breaker. I think that is why RCD main-breakers are used - the earth
fault return current will trip an RCD. That may be why this system has
RCDs. The only number I have seen for an RCD trip is 30 mA. That seems
like it would be subject to nuisance trips. It is also the number I have
seen for RCDs protecting people - seems too close to the can't-let-go
current.

In the US, as most of us know, GFCIs to protect people trip at 5 mA.
There are GFIs to protect equipment that trip at 30 mA. And AFCIs
include a ground fault trip, I think always at 50 mA.

-------------------------------
The pictures show devices in series. Likely the top unit is an ordinary
over-current breaker and the bottom one is only an RCD.

Likely a large main breaker in the center (that is how it is marked),
fed from the bottom, feeding 2 - RCD-protected feeders.

------------------------------
A 63 A (67?) 220V 3 ph feed is equivalent to about a 190 A split-phase
service here.

------------------------------
Would be a good idea for the OP to google the breaker information to
find specs and instructions.

-----------------------------
As a warning - the service may only be about 150 A. But a short on the
service wires before the breaker can have a current of thousands of amps
- would be very unpleasant.

------------------------------
And this newsgroup is mostly US, though we humor some foreigners from
north of the border. Happy to answer questions, but would have helped
for the OP to say he is in Thailand, especially on a question like this.

I poked around on the Legrand catalog and found his switch gear. It is
63 amps, the top one is a 3 pole breaker, the bottom one is an RCCB
(RCD in Europe) That particular one is 100MA so it is not protection
for personal in any sense. You are dead by the time that sucker trips.
It is exactly what you say. It just detects a serious ground fault and
trips the main.

http://www.legrand.com.au/products/e...ion/tx3-rccbs/

If you poke around a little you will see all of that stuff in the
picture. That is an Australian site so Thailand is probably in their
marketing area.