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#1
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breaker response time
When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the
individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. |
#2
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breaker response time
On 7/9/2017 6:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. Not necessarily, but I had one main breaker rated at 100 amps that would trip at about 70 amps. The sub breakers would never trip. |
#3
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breaker response time
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 07:58:16 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. It sounds like you either have a bad main breaker, a burned up bus connection or you are running at so close to capacity that one more thing puts you over without exceeding the capacity of that branch circuit. Either buy a clamp on ammeter or pay a sparky to analyse your panel loading. Sometimes the PoCo will do that for free and call it an energy audit. |
#4
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breaker response time
On 7/9/2017 9:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. What is the rating of the main breaker? What is the load? if the main is 100 and you have a bunch of 20A breakers pulling 15A the group would trip the main. You should do some analysis to see if you are overloading the panel. If you added Central AC, larger water heater,dryer, electric range, they may not be a problem individually but together, too much for the main. |
#5
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breaker response time
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/9/2017 9:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. What is the rating of the main breaker? What is the load? if the main is 100 and you have a bunch of 20A breakers pulling 15A the group would trip the main. Note, in case you are possibly unaware of this, that you want to count on how many amps are being accounted for by CB'ers on each side (or ones using both sides (poles?) ). You should do some analysis to see if you are overloading the panel. If you added Central AC, larger water heater,dryer, electric range, they may not be a problem individually but together, too much for the main. |
#6
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breaker response time
On 10/07/2017 09:31, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/9/2017 9:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. What is the rating of the main breaker? What is the load? if the main is 100 and you have a bunch of 20A breakers pulling 15A the group would trip the main. You should do some analysis to see if you are overloading the panel. If you added Central AC, larger water heater,dryer, electric range, they may not be a problem individually but together, too much for the main. Thanks for the reply. That's no the problem. I can always trace the problem to one single breaker and flip it. That solves the problem for quite a while. When it is dry season, there is no breaker problem. When the four month raining season comes, some breakers would trip. I don't know if it is due to moisture or underground short circuit. I flip those offending breakers and everything is good, except I don't have garden lights and others which I have yet to figure out what they are. There are so many breakers in the box. I don't know which one is for what. |
#7
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breaker response time
Lenny Jacobs wrote:
When it is dry season, there is no breaker problem. When the four month raining season comes, some breakers would trip. I don't know if it is due to moisture or underground short circuit. I flip those offending breakers and everything is good, except I don't have garden lights and others which I have yet to figure out what they are. That sounds like a worthwhile project for you. There are tools to help. There are so many breakers in the box. I don't know which one is for what. |
#8
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breaker response time
I can always trace the problem to one single breaker and flip it. That solves the problem for quite a while. When it is dry season, there is no breaker problem. When the four month raining season comes, some breakers would trip. Are these standard breakers or GROUND FAULT INT GFI breakers? m |
#9
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breaker response time
On 7/9/2017 10:20 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 09:31, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 7/9/2017 9:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. What is the rating of the main breaker? What is the load? if the main is 100 and you have a bunch of 20A breakers pulling 15A the group would trip the main. You should do some analysis to see if you are overloading the panel. If you added Central AC, larger water heater,dryer, electric range, they may not be a problem individually but together, too much for the main. Thanks for the reply. That's no the problem. I can always trace the problem to one single breaker and flip it. That solves the problem for quite a while. When it is dry season, there is no breaker problem. When the four month raining season comes, some breakers would trip. I don't know if it is due to moisture or underground short circuit. I flip those offending breakers and everything is good, except I don't have garden lights and others which I have yet to figure out what they are. There are so many breakers in the box. I don't know which one is for what. If moisture is causing such problems, other than as a result of a sump pump overloading things, then you have real problems that should be tracked down and fixed ASAP. You don't want your house burning down. If you can't figure it out quickly, spend the $ on a good electrician. |
#10
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breaker response time
On 10/07/2017 22:10, Bob F wrote:
On 7/9/2017 10:20 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: On 10/07/2017 09:31, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 7/9/2017 9:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. What is the rating of the main breaker? What is the load? if the main is 100 and you have a bunch of 20A breakers pulling 15A the group would trip the main. You should do some analysis to see if you are overloading the panel. If you added Central AC, larger water heater,dryer, electric range, they may not be a problem individually but together, too much for the main. Thanks for the reply. That's no the problem. I can always trace the problem to one single breaker and flip it. That solves the problem for quite a while. When it is dry season, there is no breaker problem. When the four month raining season comes, some breakers would trip. I don't know if it is due to moisture or underground short circuit. I flip those offending breakers and everything is good, except I don't have garden lights and others which I have yet to figure out what they are. There are so many breakers in the box. I don't know which one is for what. If moisture is causing such problems, other than as a result of a sump pump overloading things, then you have real problems that should be tracked down and fixed ASAP. You don't want your house burning down. If you can't figure it out quickly, spend the $ on a good electrician. I did ask an electrician about the breaker tripping problem. He said casually that's due to moisture. No need to fix. Just live with it. Since those breakers don't seem to control anything important (the only thing I notice is garden lights not working), I just live with the problem. |
#11
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breaker response time
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 07:00:20 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote: On 10/07/2017 22:10, Bob F wrote: On 7/9/2017 10:20 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: On 10/07/2017 09:31, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 7/9/2017 9:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. What is the rating of the main breaker? What is the load? if the main is 100 and you have a bunch of 20A breakers pulling 15A the group would trip the main. You should do some analysis to see if you are overloading the panel. If you added Central AC, larger water heater,dryer, electric range, they may not be a problem individually but together, too much for the main. Thanks for the reply. That's no the problem. I can always trace the problem to one single breaker and flip it. That solves the problem for quite a while. When it is dry season, there is no breaker problem. When the four month raining season comes, some breakers would trip. I don't know if it is due to moisture or underground short circuit. I flip those offending breakers and everything is good, except I don't have garden lights and others which I have yet to figure out what they are. There are so many breakers in the box. I don't know which one is for what. If moisture is causing such problems, other than as a result of a sump pump overloading things, then you have real problems that should be tracked down and fixed ASAP. You don't want your house burning down. If you can't figure it out quickly, spend the $ on a good electrician. I did ask an electrician about the breaker tripping problem. He said casually that's due to moisture. No need to fix. Just live with it. Since those breakers don't seem to control anything important (the only thing I notice is garden lights not working), I just live with the problem. There is a safety issue - disconnect the circuits from the breakers and rest easy. |
#12
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breaker response time
On 7/10/2017 8:30 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
I did ask an electrician about the breaker tripping problem. He said casually that's due to moisture. No need to fix. Just live with it. Since those breakers don't seem to control anything important (the only thing I notice is garden lights not working), I just live with the problem. You may have just pinpointed the problem. Outdoor wiring and fixtures are exposed to the elements and there may be a bad connection someplace. Moisture from rain or condensation may be just enough to make a short. |
#13
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breaker response time
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 11:50:12 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote: On 10/07/2017 09:31, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On 7/9/2017 9:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. What is the rating of the main breaker? What is the load? if the main is 100 and you have a bunch of 20A breakers pulling 15A the group would trip the main. You should do some analysis to see if you are overloading the panel. If you added Central AC, larger water heater,dryer, electric range, they may not be a problem individually but together, too much for the main. Thanks for the reply. That's no the problem. I can always trace the problem to one single breaker and flip it. That solves the problem for quite a while. When it is dry season, there is no breaker problem. When the four month raining season comes, some breakers would trip. I don't know if it is due to moisture or underground short circuit. I flip those offending breakers and everything is good, except I don't have garden lights and others which I have yet to figure out what they are. There are so many breakers in the box. I don't know which one is for what. Get busy and map the breakers!!!! |
#14
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breaker response time
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#15
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breaker response time
On 7/11/2017 8:29 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 23:25, wrote: Get busy and map the breakers!!!! Since I have turned off four breakers. Is there a way to find out what circuits they control? I can't turn them on because that would trip the sub-main breaker. All four of them trip the main? You have serious problems on those four. You could disconnect/unplug/turn off everything on each circuit and see if any of the devices are the problem. You could use a VOM (Volt/Ohm meter) and a long wire. Connect the wire to the wire at the breaker, and drag the other end to each device/outlet/light that is off with the four breakers off. test for continuity between the wire and the hot connection at each device. Do the same for each breaker. You could connect the wire at each breaker one-at-a-time through a light bulb to the breaker (disconnect the wire from the breaker) to supply a lower current to the line, then go test for a lower voltage at each device to find out what devices are on that breaker. If multiple breakers seem to show up at the same device, that could indicate a short between 2 circuits somewhere. |
#16
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breaker response time
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 07:58:16 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. If you have a full panel - say even 21 breakers - all 15 amp, all loaded to 80%, you have a 252 amp draw - no branch breakers are overloaded, yet you are 25% overloaded on a 200 amp main breker. |
#17
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breaker response time
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:16:44 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 07:58:16 +0630, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. If you have a full panel - say even 21 breakers - all 15 amp, all loaded to 80%, you have a 252 amp draw - no branch breakers are overloaded, yet you are 25% overloaded on a 200 amp main breker. +1 |
#18
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breaker response time
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#19
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breaker response time
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:14:36 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 10:46, wrote: On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 07:58:16 +0630, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. If you have a full panel - say even 21 breakers - all 15 amp, all loaded to 80%, you have a 252 amp draw - no branch breakers are overloaded, yet you are 25% overloaded on a 200 amp main breker. Theoretically possible but that's not the case here. Every year, when the raining season comes and the main breaker is tripped, I can always trace to the same sub-breakers that cause the problem and turn them down. They are not tripped all at the same time but they are always the same four breakers that have the problem. How do you identify which one caused it? Does it immediately trip the main again when you put the offending breaker on, ie the fault is still there? If so, if it's not intermittent, I would think you'd immediately further track down what the source of the fault is. I studied the breaker box and found that it's not like what I usually saw in the US. It has a 75 A main breaker labelled Ground-First FL Main (this is a two-story building). There are two 63 A breakers labelled Ground FL Main and another two 63 A breakers labelled First FL main. Looks like this is a three-tier system. It is the same 63A breaker that is tripped during raining season. Do you really mean tripping or that it's something on that 63A breaker that causes the main to trip? You said the main was tripping, not the other breaker. Also this picture is different than what I think most of us were envisioning, which was a typical main panel with individual branch circuits, not a main that feeds what appears to be two subpanels, That shouldn't really matter though. What do you believe the total load normal load on it is, just before it trips? What's going on at the subpanels when this happens, those 63A breakers must feed subpanels of some kind. Anything tripped there? As to why the 75A trips first, it makes more sense now. Breakers have curves as to how fast they trip versus the size of the fault. Different breakers will have different curves and they are not exact. What you have is a 63A breaker and a 75A both exposed to an overload. Additionally, you don't tell us what else is on that main panel besides the two 63A breakers, but if there are other circuits, then the 75A is seeing whatever the 63A one is, plus those other loads. With other loads, no surprise it trips first. Even without other loads, if you present a major over load to both, the 75A might trip first if it's curve is slightly different. I think most of us were envisioning that you had a big main breaker, eg 150A and then smaller breakers, eg 20A that feed those other circuits. Usually, there are only no more than 10 lights on, two full-height and a half-height refrigerators constantly on (doesn't mean the compressors are constantly running), and a ceiling fan, a water heater. That's it. Seems to me there is absolutely no reason a breaker would trip with a load like this. That's why I suspect the culprit is moisture or underground cable getting short circuited due to rain. Now, two breakers are turned down. During dry season, all breakers are up. By the way, this is 220 V. Where are you? We were assuming this is US. |
#20
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breaker response time
On 10/07/2017 23:01, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:14:36 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote: Theoretically possible but that's not the case here. Every year, when the raining season comes and the main breaker is tripped, I can always trace to the same sub-breakers that cause the problem and turn them down. They are not tripped all at the same time but they are always the same four breakers that have the problem. How do you identify which one caused it? Does it immediately trip the main again when you put the offending breaker on, ie the fault is still there? If so, if it's not intermittent, I would think you'd immediately further track down what the source of the fault is. I flipped all sub breakers down and flipped them one by one to locate the offending breaker. Once I found the offending breaker, I left it down and everything would be fine. Well, except that particular circuit that was turned off. I studied the breaker box and found that it's not like what I usually saw in the US. It has a 75 A main breaker labelled Ground-First FL Main (this is a two-story building). There are two 63 A breakers labelled Ground FL Main and another two 63 A breakers labelled First FL main. Looks like this is a three-tier system. It is the same 63A breaker that is tripped during raining season. Do you really mean tripping or that it's something on that 63A breaker that causes the main to trip? You said the main was tripping, not the other breaker. Also this picture is different than what I think most of us were envisioning, which was a typical main panel with individual branch circuits, not a main that feeds what appears to be two subpanels, That shouldn't really matter though. Sorry for the confusion. I had not known the system was this complex before I checked it. There are two panes. One contains a main 75A breaker with four 63 A sub-main breakers. Before, I had been saying "main breaker". It turned out to be a 63A sub-main breaker. There is another panel containing about 50 breakers (actually, this panel has two chambers, one containing 50 or so breakers, the other empty). There are no more panels. What do you believe the total load normal load on it is, just before it trips? What's going on at the subpanels when this happens, those 63A breakers must feed subpanels of some kind. Anything tripped there? As to why the 75A trips first, it makes more sense now. Breakers have curves as to how fast they trip versus the size of the fault. Different breakers will have different curves and they are not exact. What you have is a 63A breaker and a 75A both exposed to an overload. Additionally, you don't tell us what else is on that main panel besides the two 63A breakers, but if there are other circuits, then the 75A is seeing whatever the 63A one is, plus those other loads. With other loads, no surprise it trips first. Even without other loads, if you present a major over load to both, the 75A might trip first if it's curve is slightly different. I would think main breakers would have a slightly longer response time so to give time to sub breakers to trip. Where are you? We were assuming this is US. Thailand. |
#21
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breaker response time
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:16:55 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 23:01, trader_4 wrote: On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:14:36 PM UTC-4, Lenny Jacobs wrote: Theoretically possible but that's not the case here. Every year, when the raining season comes and the main breaker is tripped, I can always trace to the same sub-breakers that cause the problem and turn them down. They are not tripped all at the same time but they are always the same four breakers that have the problem. How do you identify which one caused it? Does it immediately trip the main again when you put the offending breaker on, ie the fault is still there? If so, if it's not intermittent, I would think you'd immediately further track down what the source of the fault is. I flipped all sub breakers down and flipped them one by one to locate the offending breaker. Once I found the offending breaker, I left it down and everything would be fine. Well, except that particular circuit that was turned off. I studied the breaker box and found that it's not like what I usually saw in the US. It has a 75 A main breaker labelled Ground-First FL Main (this is a two-story building). There are two 63 A breakers labelled Ground FL Main and another two 63 A breakers labelled First FL main. Looks like this is a three-tier system. It is the same 63A breaker that is tripped during raining season. Do you really mean tripping or that it's something on that 63A breaker that causes the main to trip? You said the main was tripping, not the other breaker. Also this picture is different than what I think most of us were envisioning, which was a typical main panel with individual branch circuits, not a main that feeds what appears to be two subpanels, That shouldn't really matter though. Sorry for the confusion. I had not known the system was this complex before I checked it. There are two panes. One contains a main 75A breaker with four 63 A sub-main breakers. Before, I had been saying "main breaker". It turned out to be a 63A sub-main breaker. There is another panel containing about 50 breakers (actually, this panel has two chambers, one containing 50 or so breakers, the other empty). There are no more panels. What do you believe the total load normal load on it is, just before it trips? What's going on at the subpanels when this happens, those 63A breakers must feed subpanels of some kind. Anything tripped there? As to why the 75A trips first, it makes more sense now. Breakers have curves as to how fast they trip versus the size of the fault. Different breakers will have different curves and they are not exact. What you have is a 63A breaker and a 75A both exposed to an overload. Additionally, you don't tell us what else is on that main panel besides the two 63A breakers, but if there are other circuits, then the 75A is seeing whatever the 63A one is, plus those other loads. With other loads, no surprise it trips first. Even without other loads, if you present a major over load to both, the 75A might trip first if it's curve is slightly different. I would think main breakers would have a slightly longer response time so to give time to sub breakers to trip. Where are you? We were assuming this is US. Thailand. Gfre has brought up a few times now that you may have a main breaker that doesn't just trip on overload, but one that also trips if there is even a tiny ground fault. A ground fault is current flowing to ground instead of confined to the conductors. In the USA they are called GFCI breakers. Gfre says in Europe they are called RCD. If that's the case, then a current of just 30ma can trip it and you can get that from wet connections, outlets, etc. It's very common. Does that main breaker have anything that makes it look different? Markings? A test button? |
#22
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breaker response time
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 22:44:27 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote: On 10/07/2017 10:46, wrote: On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 07:58:16 +0630, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. If you have a full panel - say even 21 breakers - all 15 amp, all loaded to 80%, you have a 252 amp draw - no branch breakers are overloaded, yet you are 25% overloaded on a 200 amp main breker. Theoretically possible but that's not the case here. Every year, when the raining season comes and the main breaker is tripped, I can always trace to the same sub-breakers that cause the problem and turn them down. They are not tripped all at the same time but they are always the same four breakers that have the problem. Then replace the damned things, they are not doing their job. There is NO WAY the main should kick before the branch circuit protection I studied the breaker box and found that it's not like what I usually saw in the US. It has a 75 A main breaker labelled Ground-First FL Main (this is a two-story building). There are two 63 A breakers labelled Ground FL Main and another two 63 A breakers labelled First FL main. Looks like this is a three-tier system. It is the same 63A breaker that is tripped during raining season. Usually, there are only no more than 10 lights on, two full-height and a half-height refrigerators constantly on (doesn't mean the compressors are constantly running), and a ceiling fan, a water heater. That's it. Seems to me there is absolutely no reason a breaker would trip with a load like this. That's why I suspect the culprit is moisture or underground cable getting short circuited due to rain. Now, two breakers are turned down. During dry season, all breakers are up. By the way, this is 220 V. OK - Euro system. Different problems. No "load balance" issues. 2 "main breakers" in the building. One never trips. The other trips when it is wet outside. You have external lighting circuits on that main. You most likely have leakage in those 2 circuits, not enough to trip the branch breakers, but enough to load the main heavily enough that the rest of the loads, combined with the circuit leakage, overloads the main. Find out what is on the circuits in question and get those circuits checked and fixed - or permanently disconnected. |
#23
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breaker response time
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 1:18:30 PM UTC-4, wrote:
OK - Euro system. Different problems. No "load balance" issues. 2 "main breakers" in the building. One never trips. The other trips when it is wet outside. You have external lighting circuits on that main. You most likely have leakage in those 2 circuits, not enough to trip the branch breakers, but enough to load the main heavily enough that the rest of the loads, combined with the circuit leakage, overloads the main. Find out what is on the circuits in question and get those circuits checked and fixed - or permanently disconnected. This. But just for completeness, breakers go open for three reasons that I know of, probably more. You turn them off. They can stand a lot of this. Some are rated to be used this way, but even nonrated ones can do a lot of cycles. They overload slightly. They can do a lot of these cycles too, but not nearly as many before getting too sensitive or failing. I think it's a factor of 10. They see a dead short. This is bad. They're only rated to do that twice, and sometimes once is enough. That's okay, they did the job and kept your house from burning down, but now you need a new one. Rainy weather is probably an overload rather than a dead short. Who knows? |
#24
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breaker response time
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 13:20:22 -0700 (PDT), TimR
wrote: On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 1:18:30 PM UTC-4, wrote: OK - Euro system. Different problems. No "load balance" issues. 2 "main breakers" in the building. One never trips. The other trips when it is wet outside. You have external lighting circuits on that main. You most likely have leakage in those 2 circuits, not enough to trip the branch breakers, but enough to load the main heavily enough that the rest of the loads, combined with the circuit leakage, overloads the main. Find out what is on the circuits in question and get those circuits checked and fixed - or permanently disconnected. This. But just for completeness, breakers go open for three reasons that I know of, probably more. You turn them off. They can stand a lot of this. Some are rated to be used this way, but even nonrated ones can do a lot of cycles. They overload slightly. They can do a lot of these cycles too, but not nearly as many before getting too sensitive or failing. I think it's a factor of 10. They see a dead short. This is bad. They're only rated to do that twice, and sometimes once is enough. That's okay, they did the job and kept your house from burning down, but now you need a new one. Rainy weather is probably an overload rather than a dead short. Who knows? Fine line between a heavy overload and a dead short. If the main is tripping and the branch is not, you can be pretty sure it is NOT a dead short on one of the branch circuits - - - - |
#26
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breaker response time
On 07/10/2017 08:54 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 23:48, wrote: OK - Euro system. Different problems. No "load balance" issues. 2 "main breakers" in the building. One never trips. The other trips when it is wet outside. You have external lighting circuits on that main. You most likely have leakage in those 2 circuits, not enough to trip the branch breakers, but enough to load the main heavily enough that the rest of the loads, combined with the circuit leakage, overloads the main. Find out what is on the circuits in question and get those circuits checked and fixed - or permanently disconnected. I flipped the offending breakers to turn them off until dry season comes. Then, I turn them on. The only difference I notice is the garden lights. It sounds like your electrical system was installed by an imbecile. A proper electrical system will work in all weather. |
#27
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breaker response time
On 07/09/2017 09:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. One of the best things I ever did was label each circuit on my breaker panels. As I recall, ~50 circuits took less than a couple hours. Now get to it! As far as popping you main breaker, you'll need a meter like this to solve that mystery: https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-MSR-.../dp/B00NWGZ4XC |
#28
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breaker response time
On 7/9/2017 8:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. That ain't supposed to happen . When an individual circuit overloads that breaker and only that breaker is supposed to trip . Either you have a defective main or the wrong amp rating . Or maybe you've got way too big breakers on the individual circuits . Most mains are 100 or 200 amps , 30 or 40 amp breakers for stoves/water heaters/dryers , 20 amp for most outlet circuits and 15's for lighting . -- Snag |
#29
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breaker response time
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 7:29:52 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 7/9/2017 8:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. That ain't supposed to happen . When an individual circuit overloads that breaker and only that breaker is supposed to trip . Either you have a defective main or the wrong amp rating . Or maybe you've got way too big breakers on the individual circuits . Most mains are 100 or 200 amps , 30 or 40 amp breakers for stoves/water heaters/dryers , 20 amp for most outlet circuits and 15's for lighting . -- Snag See Clare's post. If you have a panel full of breakers and most are loaded near the max, you can be at the main breaker limit. Turn on one more load, add 5A on a circuit that is already pulling 9A, or even on a circuit that wasn't drawing anything, and it will trip the main. Someone else pointed out that if the load is unbalanced, you could also exceed the max on one leg in a similar way. It;s unusual, but so is his problem. Another question is if the problem is being caused by the addition of a normal additional load or a dead short. A dead short can exceed both the main breaker and the individual circuit breaker at the same time. Normally just the individual one opens, but it's possible that he has a fast response time main and a slower response time individual breaker. I tend to doubt that though, those kind of shorts you'd think you'd know and they would not be intermittently happening again. breaker, not the individual circuit breaker. |
#30
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breaker response time
On 7/10/2017 8:50 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 7:29:52 AM UTC-4, Terry Coombs wrote: On 7/9/2017 8:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. That ain't supposed to happen . When an individual circuit overloads that breaker and only that breaker is supposed to trip . Either you have a defective main or the wrong amp rating . Or maybe you've got way too big breakers on the individual circuits . Most mains are 100 or 200 amps , 30 or 40 amp breakers for stoves/water heaters/dryers , 20 amp for most outlet circuits and 15's for lighting . -- Snag See Clare's post. If you have a panel full of breakers and most are loaded near the max, you can be at the main breaker limit. Turn on one more load, add 5A on a circuit that is already pulling 9A, or even on a circuit that wasn't drawing anything, and it will trip the main. Someone else pointed out that if the load is unbalanced, you could also exceed the max on one leg in a similar way. It;s unusual, but so is his problem. Another question is if the problem is being caused by the addition of a normal additional load or a dead short. A dead short can exceed both the main breaker and the individual circuit breaker at the same time. Normally just the individual one opens, but it's possible that he has a fast response time main and a slower response time individual breaker. I tend to doubt that though, those kind of shorts you'd think you'd know and they would not be intermittently happening again. breaker, not the individual circuit breaker. I noticed up above that the OP says he's got a 220V system ... And a different layout of main/sub panel breakers than I'm accustomed to . Yes , I did see Clare's post , and he makes sense . Lot of other info in the OP's responses , and I haven't a clue what his problem is . -- Snag |
#31
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breaker response time
On 10/07/2017 23:41, Terry Coombs wrote:
I noticed up above that the OP says he's got a 220V system ... And a different layout of main/sub panel breakers than I'm accustomed to . Yes , I did see Clare's post , and he makes sense . Lot of other info in the OP's responses , and I haven't a clue what his problem is . -- Snag Sorry that I did not explain it clearly. To me, no matter what system it is, it should always be the sub-breakers that trip first, not the main breaker. I don't know why one would design a system in which the main breaker would trip first. It seems to me that design defeats the purpose of individual breakers. When a sub-breaker is overloaded and the whole house loses power? That just doesn't make sense to me. In my case, when a sub-main breaker is tripped (and I'm sure it is not due to overload. Three refrigerators, a ceiling fan, 10 lights, a water heater cannot overload a 63A breaker), I can always trace to one single offending sub-breaker. So, my question is why a sub-main breaker trips first, not the sub-breaker? The sub-main breaker has a faster response time than the sub-breaker? |
#32
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breaker response time
On 10/07/2017 18:03, Terry Coombs wrote:
On 7/9/2017 8:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. That ain't supposed to happen . When an individual circuit overloads that breaker and only that breaker is supposed to trip . Either you have a defective main or the wrong amp rating . Or maybe you've got way too big breakers on the individual circuits . Most mains are 100 or 200 amps , 30 or 40 amp breakers for stoves/water heaters/dryers , 20 amp for most outlet circuits and 15's for lighting . -- Snag That is what I'd expect but that's not what is happening here. I have 10 lights on, a water heater on, three refrigerators on, a ceiling fan on. How can these trip a 63A (220 V) breaker? It must be short circuit of some sort. But why is a main breaker tripped, instead of a sub breaker? |
#33
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breaker response time
On 7/10/2017 11:24 AM, Lenny Jacobs wrote:
On 10/07/2017 18:03, Terry Coombs wrote: On 7/9/2017 8:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. That ain't supposed to happen . When an individual circuit overloads that breaker and only that breaker is supposed to trip . Either you have a defective main or the wrong amp rating . Or maybe you've got way too big breakers on the individual circuits . Most mains are 100 or 200 amps , 30 or 40 amp breakers for stoves/water heaters/dryers , 20 amp for most outlet circuits and 15's for lighting . -- Snag That is what I'd expect but that's not what is happening here. I have 10 lights on, a water heater on, three refrigerators on, a ceiling fan on. How can these trip a 63A (220 V) breaker? It must be short circuit of some sort. But why is a main breaker tripped, instead of a sub breaker? Where are you ? I haven't a clue what your problem is , from your responses above you have a totally different setup from what I have here - 110/220 single phase from a grounded center tap transformer . -- Snag |
#34
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breaker response time
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 22:54:12 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote: On 10/07/2017 18:03, Terry Coombs wrote: On 7/9/2017 8:28 PM, Lenny Jacobs wrote: When a breaker is tripped, it's always the main breaker, not the individual breaker. Shouldn't the individual breaker be tripped first? This is troublesome because I then have to turn off all individual breakers with the main breaker on and flip each breaker to see which one causes the trouble. That ain't supposed to happen . When an individual circuit overloads that breaker and only that breaker is supposed to trip . Either you have a defective main or the wrong amp rating . Or maybe you've got way too big breakers on the individual circuits . Most mains are 100 or 200 amps , 30 or 40 amp breakers for stoves/water heaters/dryers , 20 amp for most outlet circuits and 15's for lighting . -- Snag That is what I'd expect but that's not what is happening here. I have 10 lights on, a water heater on, three refrigerators on, a ceiling fan on. How can these trip a 63A (220 V) breaker? It must be short circuit of some sort. But why is a main breaker tripped, instead of a sub breaker? Because it is an RCD. (30ma GFCI for you Americans) Fix your water infiltration problem on the outside circuit. |
#36
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breaker response time
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 08:09:58 +0630, Lenny Jacobs
wrote: On 11/07/2017 00:55, wrote: Because it is an RCD. (30ma GFCI for you Americans) Fix your water infiltration problem on the outside circuit. No. They are regular breakers. GFCI breakers have a test button. Mine don't. Are you sure your main is not an RCD? Is there a reset button? (The RCDs I have seen don't have a test button) You say 63a and that immediately says this is not the US because we do not have 63a breakers here. I thought most countries with 220v used RCDs. New Zealand http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zeala...i/Breakers.jpg |
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