One of the TV home improvement show electricians recommended using a
surge protector with current model clothes washers as they have so much
electronics controlling the wash cycle.

Most of the surge protectors I looked at spec an 1875 watt capacity. I
can't find any info on my machine's current draw and wonder if one of
those surge protectors would be OK or would it get fried?

Machine is LG 1201CW.

--
€œYou cannot push anyone up the ladder unless he is willing to climb.€�
- Andrew Carnegie

On 5/22/2017 3:46 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
One of the TV home improvement show electricians recommended using a
surge protector with current model clothes washers as they have so much
electronics controlling the wash cycle.

Most of the surge protectors I looked at spec an 1875 watt capacity. I
can't find any info on my machine's current draw and wonder if one of
those surge protectors would be OK or would it get fried?

Machine is LG 1201CW.



It requires a 10A circuit. The max load would be 1200 watts so 1875
would work.
http://www.lg.com/us/washers/lg-WT12...op-load-washer

You're welcome

On Mon, 22 May 2017 15:46:13 -0400, Wade Garrett
wrote:

One of the TV home improvement show electricians recommended using a
surge protector with current model clothes washers as they have so much
electronics controlling the wash cycle.

Most of the surge protectors I looked at spec an 1875 watt capacity. I
can't find any info on my machine's current draw and wonder if one of
those surge protectors would be OK or would it get fried?

Machine is LG 1201CW.

I can't answer your question but I do know it doesn't take much to
harm delicate appliance electronics, a power surge or a lightning
strike nearby. I have gone back to manual controls on my washer
(dryer will be next) for my washer. You might consider a whole house
surge protector mounted next to or in your electric panel. Just
sayin'.

In article , says...

One of the TV home improvement show electricians recommended using a
surge protector with current model clothes washers as they have so much
electronics controlling the wash cycle.

Most of the surge protectors I looked at spec an 1875 watt capacity. I
can't find any info on my machine's current draw and wonder if one of
those surge protectors would be OK or would it get fried?

Machine is LG 1201CW.

The machine is for 120 volts at 10 amps. That is 1200 watts.

As many devices are only suspose to be about 1500 watts or less, you are
good to go with that surge protector.

Now is the time for a certain fellow to chime in and give a lot of talk
about how they are no good and the only one that works is a whole house
one or some such thing.

On 5/22/2017 4:14 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Now is the time for a certain fellow to chime in and give a lot of talk
about how they are no good and the only one that works is a whole house
one or some such thing.

Why waste your money on a plastic toy? Whole house suppressors are much more effective.

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 3:46:18 PM UTC-4, Wade Garrett wrote:
One of the TV home improvement show electricians recommended using a
surge protector with current model clothes washers as they have so much
electronics controlling the wash cycle.

Most of the surge protectors I looked at spec an 1875 watt capacity. I
can't find any info on my machine's current draw and wonder if one of
those surge protectors would be OK or would it get fried?

Machine is LG 1201CW.

--
€œYou cannot push anyone up the ladder unless he is willing to climb.€�
- Andrew Carnegie

Put a good whole house one in at the panel to protect all the stuff that's only connected to just AC. TV, etc that are connected to cable, phone, etc should have additional plug in protection that all those lines go through.

On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:21:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 3:46:18 PM UTC-4, Wade Garrett wrote:
One of the TV home improvement show electricians recommended using a
surge protector with current model clothes washers as they have so much
electronics controlling the wash cycle.

Most of the surge protectors I looked at spec an 1875 watt capacity. I
can't find any info on my machine's current draw and wonder if one of
those surge protectors would be OK or would it get fried?

Machine is LG 1201CW.

--
€œYou cannot push anyone up the ladder unless he is willing to climb.€�
- Andrew Carnegie

Put a good whole house one in at the panel to protect all the stuff that's only connected to just AC. TV, etc that are connected to cable, phone, etc should have additional plug in protection that all those lines go through.

I can't believe that in the 21st century, manufacturers won't put a
couple of 10 cent MOVs in their machines. Throw in a ferrite bead or
two and you have a surge protector.

On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:14:00 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

Now is the time for a certain fellow to chime in and give a lot of talk
about how they are no good and the only one that works is a whole house
one or some such thing.

One guy here said the only protection was having lightning rods to
every circuit or some such comment. I called him out on it. I have a
unit on my HVAC compressor, it will work in conjunction if I put a
whole house unit on or in the breaker panel. Where did the smart guy
go?

On Mon, 22 May 2017 19:36:20 -0400, wrote:

Put a good whole house one in at the panel to protect all the stuff that's only connected to just AC. TV, etc that are connected to cable, phone, etc should have additional plug in protection that all those lines go through.

I can't believe that in the 21st century, manufacturers won't put a
couple of 10 cent MOVs in their machines. Throw in a ferrite bead or
two and you have a surge protector.

Shucks. They need to sell sensitive electronic boards. Near the cost
of a side of beef.

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 6:36:50 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:21:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 3:46:18 PM UTC-4, Wade Garrett wrote:
One of the TV home improvement show electricians recommended using a
surge protector with current model clothes washers as they have so much
electronics controlling the wash cycle.

Most of the surge protectors I looked at spec an 1875 watt capacity. I
can't find any info on my machine's current draw and wonder if one of
those surge protectors would be OK or would it get fried?

Machine is LG 1201CW.

--
€œYou cannot push anyone up the ladder unless he is willing to climb.€�
- Andrew Carnegie

Put a good whole house one in at the panel to protect all the stuff that's only connected to just AC. TV, etc that are connected to cable, phone, etc should have additional plug in protection that all those lines go through.

I can't believe that in the 21st century, manufacturers won't put a
couple of 10 cent MOVs in their machines. Throw in a ferrite bead or
two and you have a surge protector.


Most of the electronic equipment and appliances I've worked on had MOV's and ferrite chokes in the switching power supply connection to the power input. The problem is, the manufacturers don't usually use components that can take more than mild surges before exploding and needing to be replaced. The more expensive gear often has better components that can be hammered a number of times before failing. The better equipment will have a separate fuse holder or one built into the IEC connector in front of the built in surge protection but I would often find a 30 amp fuse or an aluminum foil wrapped fuse in the fuse holder in the gear I had to repair. Many of my dumpster rescues only needed a soldered in/on fuse replaced to get them working again.. Back in the 90's, I used to get a lot of expensive PC motherboards from the trash that needed only a soldered on fuse replaced. ヽ(€¢€¿€¢)ノ

I remember reading about the DOD doing studies of how to protect electronic equipment from power surges due to EMP from a nuclear weapon blast and the research showed that cascading protective devices would protect the equipment. Protective devices are installed where power enters a facility, at all distribution panels and at each piece of equipment. Here in Alabamastan, the power company will install a surge protector between the meter and socket for a small monthly fee and they guarantee it. I don't know the details because I haven't dealt with them lately. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

http://www.cepro.com/article/the_myt...ge_protection/

[8~{} Uncle Surge Monster

Wade Garrett wrote:
One of the TV home improvement show electricians recommended using a
surge protector with current model clothes washers as they have so much
electronics controlling the wash cycle.

Most of the surge protectors I looked at spec an 1875 watt capacity. I
can't find any info on my machine's current draw and wonder if one of
those surge protectors would be OK or would it get fried?

Machine is LG 1201CW.


Peak surge of motors is main concern. Don't use plastic, epoxy, only fire
safe metal boxes with no holes or sockets.

Greg

On 05/22/2017 03:46 PM, Wade Garrett wrote:
One of the TV home improvement show electricians recommended using a
surge protector with current model clothes washers as they have so
much electronics controlling the wash cycle.


As others have stated, the best place for a surge suppressor is in the
meter enclosure.


Next best is in your main breaker panel.

https://www.amazon.com/Siemens-FS140.../dp/B013WINMK6


I wouldn't waste my money on cheap plug-in crap.

Don't use plastic, epoxy, only fire
safe metal boxes...

Greg

+1

a MOV in an external plastic box can be more dangerous than not having one at all

m

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 7:36:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I can't believe that in the 21st century, manufacturers won't put a
couple of 10 cent MOVs in their machines. Throw in a ferrite bead or
two and you have a surge protector.

Apple did that even in the Apple II. It was as ineffective as power strip protectors.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Explains why a 'whole house' protector (properly earthed) is so effective. And why MOVs without that low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth can even compromise better protection already inside appliances.

Informed consumers always earth a 'whole house' solution. To enhance that protection, then earth ground is upgraded. Since a protector (or MOV) is only as effective as its earth ground.

On Tue, 23 May 2017 09:23:16 -0700 (PDT), westom
wrote:

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 7:36:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I can't believe that in the 21st century, manufacturers won't put a
couple of 10 cent MOVs in their machines. Throw in a ferrite bead or
two and you have a surge protector.

Apple did that even in the Apple II. It was as ineffective as power strip protectors.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Explains why a 'whole house' protector (properly earthed) is so effective. And why MOVs without that low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth can even compromise better protection already inside appliances.

Informed consumers always earth a 'whole house' solution. To enhance that protection, then earth ground is upgraded. Since a protector (or MOV) is only as effective as its earth ground.

They were asking about you. Glad to see you are still OK.

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 1:15:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 May 2017 09:23:16 -0700 (PDT), westom
wrote:

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 7:36:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I can't believe that in the 21st century, manufacturers won't put a
couple of 10 cent MOVs in their machines. Throw in a ferrite bead or
two and you have a surge protector.

Apple did that even in the Apple II. It was as ineffective as power strip protectors.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Explains why a 'whole house' protector (properly earthed) is so effective. And why MOVs without that low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth can even compromise better protection already inside appliances.

Informed consumers always earth a 'whole house' solution. To enhance that protection, then earth ground is upgraded. Since a protector (or MOV) is only as effective as its earth ground.

They were asking about you. Glad to see you are still OK.

Yeah, I saw Uncle wondering where Wtom was and I figured he's be here
any minute as soon as the word surge was mentioned.

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 11:22:26 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 6:36:50 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:21:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 3:46:18 PM UTC-4, Wade Garrett wrote:
One of the TV home improvement show electricians recommended using a
surge protector with current model clothes washers as they have so much
electronics controlling the wash cycle.

Most of the surge protectors I looked at spec an 1875 watt capacity. I
can't find any info on my machine's current draw and wonder if one of
those surge protectors would be OK or would it get fried?

Machine is LG 1201CW.

--
€œYou cannot push anyone up the ladder unless he is willing to climb.€�
- Andrew Carnegie

Put a good whole house one in at the panel to protect all the stuff that's only connected to just AC. TV, etc that are connected to cable, phone, etc should have additional plug in protection that all those lines go through.

I can't believe that in the 21st century, manufacturers won't put a
couple of 10 cent MOVs in their machines. Throw in a ferrite bead or
two and you have a surge protector.


Most of the electronic equipment and appliances I've worked on had MOV's and ferrite chokes in the switching power supply connection to the power input. The problem is, the manufacturers don't usually use components that can take more than mild surges before exploding and needing to be replaced. The more expensive gear often has better components that can be hammered a number of times before failing. The better equipment will have a separate fuse holder or one built into the IEC connector in front of the built in surge protection but I would often find a 30 amp fuse or an aluminum foil wrapped fuse in the fuse holder in the gear I had to repair. Many of my dumpster rescues only needed a soldered in/on fuse replaced to get them working again. Back in the 90's, I used to get a lot of expensive PC motherboards from the trash that needed only a soldered on fuse replaced. ヽ(€¢€¿€¢)ノ

I remember reading about the DOD doing studies of how to protect electronic equipment from power surges due to EMP from a nuclear weapon blast and the research showed that cascading protective devices would protect the equipment. Protective devices are installed where power enters a facility, at all distribution panels and at each piece of equipment. Here in Alabamastan, the power company will install a surge protector between the meter and socket for a small monthly fee and they guarantee it. I don't know the details because I haven't dealt with them lately. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

http://www.cepro.com/article/the_myt...ge_protection/

[8~{} Uncle Surge Monster


There is a lot wrong in that link, starting with that most surges that
one needs to be concerned about originate inside the house. If that
were the case then the hundreds of millions of homes with no surge protection
at all would be having all kinds of failures from things within the
house. The damaging surges occur almost always from outside, ie
lightning, power line problems, etc.

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 12:23:20 PM UTC-4, westom wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 7:36:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I can't believe that in the 21st century, manufacturers won't put a
couple of 10 cent MOVs in their machines. Throw in a ferrite bead or
two and you have a surge protector.

Apple did that even in the Apple II. It was as ineffective as power strip protectors.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Explains why a 'whole house' protector (properly earthed) is so effective. And why MOVs without that low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth can even compromise better protection already inside appliances.

Total nonsense, a plug-in will supplement the tiny MOV inside the appliance
and work with it. That's what the IEEE documents that have been provided
here many time say and show. The plug-in only increases the protection,
because it has much larger MOVs. And which MOV would a person rather
have an incoming surge see first? The big one in the inexpensive plug-in
surge protector that is easily replaced or the smaller one inside the
$1000 TV?



Informed consumers always earth a 'whole house' solution. To enhance that protection, then earth ground is upgraded. Since a protector (or MOV) is only as effective as its earth ground.

Still unanswered after all these years, if a direct, nearby, earth ground
is essential, then how do those MOVs inside appliances work? At times
you've held positions ranging from they work and that's why appliance
manufacturers put them in, to at other times denying that they use MOVs
at all.

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 12:45:04 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 11:22:26 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 6:36:50 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:21:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 3:46:18 PM UTC-4, Wade Garrett wrote:
One of the TV home improvement show electricians recommended using a
surge protector with current model clothes washers as they have so much
electronics controlling the wash cycle.

Most of the surge protectors I looked at spec an 1875 watt capacity. I
can't find any info on my machine's current draw and wonder if one of
those surge protectors would be OK or would it get fried?

Machine is LG 1201CW.

--
€œYou cannot push anyone up the ladder unless he is willing to climb.€�
- Andrew Carnegie

Put a good whole house one in at the panel to protect all the stuff that's only connected to just AC. TV, etc that are connected to cable, phone, etc should have additional plug in protection that all those lines go through.

I can't believe that in the 21st century, manufacturers won't put a
couple of 10 cent MOVs in their machines. Throw in a ferrite bead or
two and you have a surge protector.


Most of the electronic equipment and appliances I've worked on had MOV's and ferrite chokes in the switching power supply connection to the power input. The problem is, the manufacturers don't usually use components that can take more than mild surges before exploding and needing to be replaced. The more expensive gear often has better components that can be hammered a number of times before failing. The better equipment will have a separate fuse holder or one built into the IEC connector in front of the built in surge protection but I would often find a 30 amp fuse or an aluminum foil wrapped fuse in the fuse holder in the gear I had to repair. Many of my dumpster rescues only needed a soldered in/on fuse replaced to get them working again. Back in the 90's, I used to get a lot of expensive PC motherboards from the trash that needed only a soldered on fuse replaced. ヽ(€¢€¿€¢)ノ

I remember reading about the DOD doing studies of how to protect electronic equipment from power surges due to EMP from a nuclear weapon blast and the research showed that cascading protective devices would protect the equipment. Protective devices are installed where power enters a facility, at all distribution panels and at each piece of equipment. Here in Alabamastan, the power company will install a surge protector between the meter and socket for a small monthly fee and they guarantee it. I don't know the details because I haven't dealt with them lately. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

http://www.cepro.com/article/the_myt...ge_protection/

[8~{} Uncle Surge Monster


There is a lot wrong in that link, starting with that most surges that
one needs to be concerned about originate inside the house. If that
were the case then the hundreds of millions of homes with no surge protection
at all would be having all kinds of failures from things within the
house. The damaging surges occur almost always from outside, ie
lightning, power line problems, etc.

High frequency electronic noise causes problems. My surge protectors also filter noise coming and going. The least expensive surge protector I have would cost $100 if I had to replace it. I salvaged a lot of good used protectors when I was servicing and installing telecom and data networks. I have some that are just noise filters. Everything has a switching power supply in it these days and cheap equipment puts a lot of noise on the power line. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Noisy Monster

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 2:05:55 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 12:45:04 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 11:22:26 PM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 6:36:50 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:21:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 3:46:18 PM UTC-4, Wade Garrett wrote:
One of the TV home improvement show electricians recommended using a
surge protector with current model clothes washers as they have so much
electronics controlling the wash cycle.

Most of the surge protectors I looked at spec an 1875 watt capacity. I
can't find any info on my machine's current draw and wonder if one of
those surge protectors would be OK or would it get fried?

Machine is LG 1201CW.

--
€œYou cannot push anyone up the ladder unless he is willing to climb.€�
- Andrew Carnegie

Put a good whole house one in at the panel to protect all the stuff that's only connected to just AC. TV, etc that are connected to cable, phone, etc should have additional plug in protection that all those lines go through.

I can't believe that in the 21st century, manufacturers won't put a
couple of 10 cent MOVs in their machines. Throw in a ferrite bead or
two and you have a surge protector.


Most of the electronic equipment and appliances I've worked on had MOV's and ferrite chokes in the switching power supply connection to the power input. The problem is, the manufacturers don't usually use components that can take more than mild surges before exploding and needing to be replaced. The more expensive gear often has better components that can be hammered a number of times before failing. The better equipment will have a separate fuse holder or one built into the IEC connector in front of the built in surge protection but I would often find a 30 amp fuse or an aluminum foil wrapped fuse in the fuse holder in the gear I had to repair. Many of my dumpster rescues only needed a soldered in/on fuse replaced to get them working again. Back in the 90's, I used to get a lot of expensive PC motherboards from the trash that needed only a soldered on fuse replaced. ヽ(€¢€¿€¢)ノ

I remember reading about the DOD doing studies of how to protect electronic equipment from power surges due to EMP from a nuclear weapon blast and the research showed that cascading protective devices would protect the equipment. Protective devices are installed where power enters a facility, at all distribution panels and at each piece of equipment. Here in Alabamastan, the power company will install a surge protector between the meter and socket for a small monthly fee and they guarantee it. I don't know the details because I haven't dealt with them lately. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

http://www.cepro.com/article/the_myt...ge_protection/

[8~{} Uncle Surge Monster


There is a lot wrong in that link, starting with that most surges that
one needs to be concerned about originate inside the house. If that
were the case then the hundreds of millions of homes with no surge protection
at all would be having all kinds of failures from things within the
house. The damaging surges occur almost always from outside, ie
lightning, power line problems, etc.

High frequency electronic noise causes problems.

Like what? Only thing I've ever seen is some radio interference
from a few things. Never seen any surge type damage, which is
what we're talking about here or any abnormal behavior of any
appliances.


My surge protectors also filter noise coming and going. The least expensive surge protector I have would cost $100 if I had to replace it. I salvaged a lot of good used protectors when I was servicing and installing telecom and data networks. I have some that are just noise filters. Everything has a switching power supply in it these days and cheap equipment puts a lot of noise on the power line. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Noisy Monster

Noise surge and I haven't seen any interoperative issues with noise,
other than sometimes it can affect AM radio.

On Tue, 23 May 2017 10:52:32 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Still unanswered after all these years, if a direct, nearby, earth ground
is essential, then how do those MOVs inside appliances work? At times
you've held positions ranging from they work and that's why appliance
manufacturers put them in, to at other times denying that they use MOVs
at all.

Before I did my inspector gig I was a hardware guy at IBM in Florida.
Lightning was our biggest single cause of failure until we learned a
bit about surge protection. A lot of the knowledge out there came from
central and SW Florida.
The first thing is most electronic damage is not coming from that
"finger of god" lightning strike right next to you. It comes from the
difference of potential between different machines. The classic is the
telco/modem and the PoCo/PC. That is what your primary surge
protection should deal with If you catch it at the service entrance,
all the better but you need all protectors tied to the same ground
electrode.
You can also have smaller surges generated on the load side of the
service. This is why you use point of use protection. We also went as
far as running bonding wires between machines that were separated by
some distance making them as direct as possible and then looping the
data lines to make them longer., You can lake them look linger than
that with ferrites. The idea is your ground and your point of use
protector can stop the surge before it gets there.
I won't even try to make the case theoretically. I just know the
results. We went from 1000 lightning calls a year in my 3 county area
to about 2.

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 1:45:04 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
There is a lot wrong in that link, starting with that most surges
that one needs to be concerned about originate inside the house.

A popular fable when one does not learn numbers and is educated by advertising. Yes, those are the most - by numbers. And are also called noise. Since all appliances make those and more robust transients irrelevant. Noise does not damage any appliance. But some read noise is more common - so it must be feared.

Only relevant surge can potentially overwhelm protection inside all appliances. It is rare - maybe once every seven years. So informed homeowners properly earth a 'whole house' protector.

Informed homeowners install one 'whole house' protector. And upgrade earthing. That protects all appliances from all types of surges. Including the mythical and feared, potentially destructive surge that originates inside a house.

A direct lightning strike can be 20,000 amps. So an informed consumer properly earths a 'whole house' protector that is, at minimum, 50,000 amps. These are provided by other companies of integrity. Then upgrade earthing - the single point earth ground. That is where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

How many joules does that near zero joule plug-in protector claim to absorb? Hundreds? A thousand? Those tens of times more expensive plug-in protectors are recommended by many who always ignored numbers. And then post demeaning replies here to avoid admitting they "ignore spec numbers".

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. As was well understood over 100 years ago. Informed homeowners spend tens or 100 times less money on something that actually means protection from all surges - including direct lightning strikes - and a mythical interior generated surge.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


the part about single point bonding is 100% correct

the grounding is necessary to provide a path for lighting so it doesn't try to travel through wood etc and start a fire,
but is less important re protecting electronics

remember


there IS proper lighting protection for avionics

and there ain't NO ground rod on an aircraft.

m

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 5:33:57 PM UTC-4, westom wrote:
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 1:45:04 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:
There is a lot wrong in that link, starting with that most surges
that one needs to be concerned about originate inside the house.

A popular fable when one does not learn numbers and is educated by advertising. Yes, those are the most - by numbers. And are also called noise. Since all appliances make those and more robust transients irrelevant. Noise does not damage any appliance. But some read noise is more common - so it must be feared.

Only relevant surge can potentially overwhelm protection inside all appliances. It is rare - maybe once every seven years. So informed homeowners properly earth a 'whole house' protector.

Informed homeowners install one 'whole house' protector. And upgrade earthing. That protects all appliances from all types of surges. Including the mythical and feared, potentially destructive surge that originates inside a house.

A direct lightning strike can be 20,000 amps.

Sure, but it's been shown here many times by credible surge protection
experts, eg IEEE, that 20K amps rarely makes it inside the house, virtually
never to an appliance. That much energy flashes over and finds an
immediate path to ground for most of the energy. Plus, direct lightning
strikes are not 99.9% of the problem. It's a nearby strike to utility
wires, etc that's the source of most surges that harm appliances.




So an informed consumer properly earths a 'whole house' protector that is, at minimum, 50,000 amps. These are provided by other companies of integrity. Then upgrade earthing - the single point earth ground. That is where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

How many joules does that near zero joule plug-in protector claim to absorb? Hundreds? A thousand? Those tens of times more expensive plug-in protectors are recommended by many who always ignored numbers. And then post demeaning replies here to avoid admitting they "ignore spec numbers".

ROFL. Over the years, WTom has attacked so many here that casually
used the term "absorb", with Wtom claiming that they are ignorant
because according to him, a surge protector doesn't absorb anything.
The truth is they do shunt most of the surge, but in the process,
like any component, some of the energy is dissipated in the surge
protector itself.



A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. As was well understood over 100 years ago. Informed homeowners spend tens or 100 times less money on something that actually means protection from all surges - including direct lightning strikes - and a mythical interior generated surge.

Still unexplained, how are those MOVs inside appliances able to offer
protection? The ones that WTom claims work perfectly fine and at
other times denies that they even exist? All they have is the AC ground
at the receptacle.

On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 10:12:02 AM UTC-4, wrote:

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.


the part about single point bonding is 100% correct

the grounding is necessary to provide a path for lighting so it doesn't try to travel through wood etc and start a fire,
but is less important re protecting electronics

remember


there IS proper lighting protection for avionics

and there ain't NO ground rod on an aircraft.

m

I've made that exact same point about aircraft over the years to
WTom too. WTom is right on part of his rants. A whole house surge
protector with a good earth ground is the best first line of defense
against surges. Where he goes totally off the track is in claiming
that plug-in ones are totally useless. The IEEE surge protection
guide says those plug-ins are essential for appliances that are
connected to more than just AC, eg cable, phone lines, etc. And
they also say that plug-ins can offer protection for those that
can't install a whole house or don't want to. Will it be as effective
as a whole house plus the plug-in? No, but it still can offer
protection from many of the most common surges.

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 2:38:26 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 May 2017 10:52:32 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Still unanswered after all these years, if a direct, nearby, earth ground
is essential, then how do those MOVs inside appliances work? At times
you've held positions ranging from they work and that's why appliance
manufacturers put them in, to at other times denying that they use MOVs
at all.

Before I did my inspector gig I was a hardware guy at IBM in Florida.
Lightning was our biggest single cause of failure until we learned a
bit about surge protection. A lot of the knowledge out there came from
central and SW Florida.
The first thing is most electronic damage is not coming from that
"finger of god" lightning strike right next to you. It comes from the
difference of potential between different machines. The classic is the
telco/modem and the PoCo/PC. That is what your primary surge
protection should deal with If you catch it at the service entrance,
all the better but you need all protectors tied to the same ground
electrode.
You can also have smaller surges generated on the load side of the
service. This is why you use point of use protection. We also went as
far as running bonding wires between machines that were separated by
some distance making them as direct as possible and then looping the
data lines to make them longer., You can lake them look linger than
that with ferrites. The idea is your ground and your point of use
protector can stop the surge before it gets there.
I won't even try to make the case theoretically. I just know the
results. We went from 1000 lightning calls a year in my 3 county area
to about 2.

What you say is also totally consistent with the NIST and IEEE surge
protection guides.

On Wed, 24 May 2017 09:55:44 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 2:38:26 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 May 2017 10:52:32 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Still unanswered after all these years, if a direct, nearby, earth ground
is essential, then how do those MOVs inside appliances work? At times
you've held positions ranging from they work and that's why appliance
manufacturers put them in, to at other times denying that they use MOVs
at all.

Before I did my inspector gig I was a hardware guy at IBM in Florida.
Lightning was our biggest single cause of failure until we learned a
bit about surge protection. A lot of the knowledge out there came from
central and SW Florida.
The first thing is most electronic damage is not coming from that
"finger of god" lightning strike right next to you. It comes from the
difference of potential between different machines. The classic is the
telco/modem and the PoCo/PC. That is what your primary surge
protection should deal with If you catch it at the service entrance,
all the better but you need all protectors tied to the same ground
electrode.
You can also have smaller surges generated on the load side of the
service. This is why you use point of use protection. We also went as
far as running bonding wires between machines that were separated by
some distance making them as direct as possible and then looping the
data lines to make them longer., You can lake them look linger than
that with ferrites. The idea is your ground and your point of use
protector can stop the surge before it gets there.
I won't even try to make the case theoretically. I just know the
results. We went from 1000 lightning calls a year in my 3 county area
to about 2.

What you say is also totally consistent with the NIST and IEEE surge
protection guides.

A lot of this was done at State Farm in Winter Haven in conjunction
with the University of Central Florida. UCF has a very extensive
lightning program. I worked with the State Farm guys because we had
the contract for all of their agent data processing. We took what they
established and expanded on that. The bond wire between machines was a
State Farm idea. The ferrites was us along with hardening your ground
electrode system. We found up to 30 volts between the grounding
systems in buildings less than 100 feet apart. Ground is not always
"ground" particularly if they are just driving rods. These days if I
was building a complex with multiple buildings I would bury a
grounding matrix that connected all of them with copper.

On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 12:21:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wed, 24 May 2017 09:55:44 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 2:38:26 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 May 2017 10:52:32 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Still unanswered after all these years, if a direct, nearby, earth ground
is essential, then how do those MOVs inside appliances work? At times
you've held positions ranging from they work and that's why appliance
manufacturers put them in, to at other times denying that they use MOVs
at all.

Before I did my inspector gig I was a hardware guy at IBM in Florida.
Lightning was our biggest single cause of failure until we learned a
bit about surge protection. A lot of the knowledge out there came from
central and SW Florida.
The first thing is most electronic damage is not coming from that
"finger of god" lightning strike right next to you. It comes from the
difference of potential between different machines. The classic is the
telco/modem and the PoCo/PC. That is what your primary surge
protection should deal with If you catch it at the service entrance,
all the better but you need all protectors tied to the same ground
electrode.
You can also have smaller surges generated on the load side of the
service. This is why you use point of use protection. We also went as
far as running bonding wires between machines that were separated by
some distance making them as direct as possible and then looping the
data lines to make them longer., You can lake them look linger than
that with ferrites. The idea is your ground and your point of use
protector can stop the surge before it gets there.
I won't even try to make the case theoretically. I just know the
results. We went from 1000 lightning calls a year in my 3 county area
to about 2.

What you say is also totally consistent with the NIST and IEEE surge
protection guides.

A lot of this was done at State Farm in Winter Haven in conjunction
with the University of Central Florida. UCF has a very extensive
lightning program. I worked with the State Farm guys because we had
the contract for all of their agent data processing. We took what they
established and expanded on that. The bond wire between machines was a
State Farm idea. The ferrites was us along with hardening your ground
electrode system. We found up to 30 volts between the grounding
systems in buildings less than 100 feet apart. Ground is not always
"ground" particularly if they are just driving rods. These days if I
was building a complex with multiple buildings I would bury a
grounding matrix that connected all of them with copper.


Back in the late 1980's, me and my brother worked as electricians for a contractor building the mission control center for SDI testing out in The Marshall Islands. A bonded grounding grid was under the concrete floor and the facility foundation had ground rods on the outside so many feet apart(I don't recall if it was 6 or 10 foot intervals) but the rods were all tied together surrounding the building. The outside ground rods were then tied into the grounding grid which also had ground rods bonded to it under the slab. It was grounding overkill to protect the Cray XMP Supercomputer, related equipment and atomic clock. It looked like a NASA mission control facility with the consoles and big projection screens. It was all high tech state of the art back then but about 10 years ago I remember reading something about The University of Alabama Huntsville trying to give away a Cray XMP and the university couldn't find any takers. I wonder what happened to the beast? ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Super Monster

MOVs??? As I see-it it is not to limit spiking coming into your machine/
system it is to limit out going spike from your system to minimize noise and
limit the possible damage to other Equipment. Yes it also help protect your
equipment to limit and protect you from external source it is minimal, for
MOV to help it has to be right on source of spike, like if you relay it must
be right across the contacts.

Uncle Monster
Fri, 26
May 2017 07:53:15 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 12:21:12 PM UTC-5,
wrote:
On Wed, 24 May 2017 09:55:44 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 2:38:26 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
On Tue, 23 May 2017 10:52:32 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Still unanswered after all these years, if a direct, nearby,
earth gr
ound
is essential, then how do those MOVs inside appliances work?
At time
s
you've held positions ranging from they work and that's why
appliance manufacturers put them in, to at other times
denying that they use MO
Vs
at all.

Before I did my inspector gig I was a hardware guy at IBM in
Florida. Lightning was our biggest single cause of failure
until we learned a bit about surge protection. A lot of the
knowledge out there came from central and SW Florida.
The first thing is most electronic damage is not coming from
that "finger of god" lightning strike right next to you. It
comes from the difference of potential between different
machines. The classic is the telco/modem and the PoCo/PC. That
is what your primary surge protection should deal with If you
catch it at the service entrance, all the better but you need
all protectors tied to the same ground electrode.
You can also have smaller surges generated on the load side of
the service. This is why you use point of use protection. We
also went as far as running bonding wires between machines
that were separated by some distance making them as direct as
possible and then looping the data lines to make them longer.,
You can lake them look linger than that with ferrites. The
idea is your ground and your point of use protector can stop
the surge before it gets there. I won't even try to make the
case theoretically. I just know the results. We went from 1000
lightning calls a year in my 3 county area to about 2.

What you say is also totally consistent with the NIST and IEEE
surge protection guides.

A lot of this was done at State Farm in Winter Haven in
conjunction with the University of Central Florida. UCF has a
very extensive lightning program. I worked with the State Farm
guys because we had the contract for all of their agent data
processing. We took what they established and expanded on that.
The bond wire between machines was a State Farm idea. The
ferrites was us along with hardening your ground electrode
system. We found up to 30 volts between the grounding systems in
buildings less than 100 feet apart. Ground is not always "ground"
particularly if they are just driving rods. These days if I was
building a complex with multiple buildings I would bury a
grounding matrix that connected all of them with copper.


Back in the late 1980's, me and my brother worked as electricians
for a contractor building the mission control center for SDI
testing out in The Marshall Islands. A bonded grounding grid was
under the concrete floor and the facility foundation had ground
rods on the outside so many feet apart(I don't recall if it was 6
or 10 foot intervals) but the rods were all tied together
surrounding the building. The outside ground rods were then tied
into the grounding grid which also had ground rods bonded to it
under the slab. It was grounding overkill to protect the Cray XMP
Supercomputer, related equipment and atomic clock. It looked like
a NASA mission control facility with the consoles and big
projection screens. It was all high tech state of the art back
then but about 10 years ago I remember reading something about The
University of Alabama Huntsville trying to give away a Cray XMP
and the university couldn't find any takers. I wonder what
happened to the beast? ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Super Monster



[temp]

--
I would like to apologize for not having offended you yet.
Please be patient. I will get to you shortly.

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 2:17:50 PM UTC-4, Tony944 wrote:
MOVs??? As I see-it it is not to limit spiking coming into your machine/
system it is to limit out going spike from your system to minimize noise and
limit the possible damage to other Equipment. Yes it also help protect your
equipment to limit and protect you from external source it is minimal, for
MOV to help it has to be right on source of spike, like if you relay it must
be right across the contacts.

MOVs inside an appliance or point-of-use surge protector work by
clamping, ie limiting the max voltage between the incoming wires,
while simultaneously providing a path to ground.
They are not there to limit out going spikes, because the damaging
spikes are not caused by or internal to the appliance.